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View Full Version : A couple of questions on Warseer and Veterans



Arcane_Blade
30-09-2007, 00:52
Not sure whether this is the right place, but here we go.

I've been thinking about a couple of things lately, and I wondered what you guys thought about them.

I was reminiscing back to my first days in the hobby. I joined back in 2002, not a scratch on how long many of you have been part of it but it feels like the hobby has been with me most of my life. I remembered how great it felt to play and how great the whole atmosphere was. Then I found the GW forums, happily reading peoples posts and getting sucked further into the hobby.

Then I began reading the WD section of the forums. The growing number of opposition to the current state of the publication swayed me, making me judge every little thing in the magazine and making me sigh with annoyance at their 'stupidity'. Slowly but surely, I became judgmental and displeased with the thing I'd loved since my early steps into GW. Now, to be fair, I'd began to fall out with WD when they began filling it up with advertisments, and especially when they removed the team page. But the GW forums really turned me against it.

Then, a while before the boards fell, I found Warseer. I was amazed by the boards, and I quickly settled here, rarely venturing back to the GW forums. However, I was shocked at the, what seemed to me, constant anti GW comments. Whether it was a full blown moan, or just a prod at the company with a sly comment about a model, I was surprised. It seemed that, when I joined, it was almost a trend to give GW a little kick.

Over time however, I began to think the same. I saw the company as failing and that everything they did was utter rubbish. True enough, some models were, and are, pretty damn bad compared to what I first remember, but it seemed at first that everything they did wasn't anywhere near as good as it could be. Eventually, I became anti GW. Not completely against it, just disliking of the company, seeing every little thing as bad and feeling a twinge every time I looked at an ad in WD. It wasn't until recently that I realised, perhaps I was being a little harsh, and became a little fairer. But it seemed that the members of Warseer had changed my opinion on GW just as the previous forums had on my feeling toward WD. Had Warseer really turned me against GW?

Secondly, I've found that some Veterans on the site talk about 'the good old days', and mention how GW's been on the decline financially and generally. While I make no disagreement toward the comments on GW's decline, in fact I agree with many of the points made, I presume that based on how good those old days were, GW was financially secure. Or were they? Was GW any better financially say, ten or fifteen years after it began than now?

So my questions to you Warseer's are; Has Warseer and other related forums (through no deliberate action) biased members views on the hobby and GW? And my second question, was GW any better a good few years back than now financially?

Cheers.

Crazy Harborc
30-09-2007, 01:13
I really do not think that Warseer is causing players to become biased against GW.

IF, the Warseer readers/posters who are also GW system's players AND users of GW's minies and accessories are/were totally happy with all things GW, they would not become biased against GW. Disatisfaction(s) and finding out others share those same ones and others CAN remove the blinders from in front of the eyes of customers who thought they were the only ones unhappy with whatever at GW.

IMHO, the forums here (and elsewhere) have/do provide a way for GW players/users to discover they are not the only ones with problems brought about through/because of GW prices, mistakes in the rules or whatever.

GW generates it's own problems and helps to cause reactions to those problems. Warseer allows people to communicate on good things as well as the bad things that are GW related.

IMHO, GW's doing away with GW's forums says a lot about the attitude at GW as far as customer's opinions, complaints etc.

Arcane_Blade
30-09-2007, 01:28
IF, the Warseer readers/posters who are also GW system's players AND users of GW's minies and accessories are/were totally happy with all things GW, they would not become biased against GW. Disatisfaction(s) and finding out others share those same ones and others CAN remove the blinders from in front of the eyes of customers who thought they were the only ones unhappy with whatever at GW.

Fair enough, I can see your point there. However, the whole idea came into my head becuase I first came to Warseer fairly neutral. I neither loved GW fanatically or hated it fervently, but it seemed after a while I became more on the dislike side of things. Though, this could just be their decline in attitude.


IMHO, the forums here (and elsewhere) have/do provide a way for GW players/users to discover they are not the only ones with problems brought about through/because of GW prices, mistakes in the rules or whatever.

Again, I see your point. I wasn't happy with the prices either, and I certainly agreed with many people's views here. However, it did seem there were many more negative comments than positive, and it seemed like Warseer was more of the 'dislike' camp. Of course, it may just depend on the areas you frequent on the site.


GW generates it's own problems and helps to cause reactions to those problems. Warseer allows people to communicate on good things as well as the bad things that are GW related.

I understand the whole GW generates its own problems, and some good things are communicated on Warseer, but when I first arrived, as I said before, there always seemed to be more negative comments than positive. As someone with a neutral position toward the company, it just seemed I had been swayed by these comments.

miridigi
30-09-2007, 01:59
It's quite funny that you started this thread as I was thinking of starting a similar one as I was working on my tables tonight.

I tend to agree that forums in general (not just Warseer) tend to make people move in one general direction or another. This effect is known as a mob mentality, someone in a crowd of people yells "Hey, that guy with the catus, he's a loser, cacti suck!" and suddenly everyone on the crowd, wether they love cacti, hate cati, or are indifferent suddenly hate cacti (strange example I know, but it applies). The same thing happens on a forum. When the proverbial "yeller" states that cacti suck it gets people thinking, the cacti lover remembers a time when they pricked their finger on a cacti so now it's evil (even though they have many cactus gardens at home which they love), or the indifferent person remebers the time that one of their cacti died on them (though it was because they neglected it), and the haters are there along with the yeller fueling the fire, riling everybody up, stiring the pot.

Soem of the complaints made on the forums are indeed legitimate, others are simply people who like to whine whining. I have read threads in which there was good news about somethin GW was doing ,take the daemon army book thread for instance, Gw has stated that there will be a book comming out that will cover an army for both 40K and Fantasy, allowing the players to play both systems with the same minis and only one book. Good thing right? Wrong (according to members of this forum at least), they come up with any number of reasons that it will suck even before they've seen what GW will do with it. Imagine you were grudginly eating a boring salad, thinking you'd rather be eating something else, and someone walked up to you and gave you an ice cream cone. You turn around and throw it on the ground saying "what the hell are you doing! I wanted vanilla! You gave me chocolate! Besides those things are loaded with fat an calories! Are you trying to kill me!" when the person was just trying to do something nice for you.

People need to stop focusing on the negative factors of GW and think about all the good things they have done, the good minis they bring out, the fact that they haven't had a price increase in 2 years when most companies raise their prices every year (in other industries), or that they really aren't ripping us off and every other hobby game is just as expensive.

IMHO complaints are warranted if you have a solution to recommend, if not keep it to yourself and stop inciting a riot.

swordwind
30-09-2007, 02:35
What changed my opinion of GW was Harbinger magazine. Before I thought GW was the only mini company there was beyond a couple of historicals and VOID which at that time was more or less a carbon copy of 40K anyway.

But then, after flipping through Harbinger in WHSmith I saw that not only were there a shed load of other companies, most of them were better than GW! Not just in prices, better minis, better rules, better storylines, better service!

Now I get more excited that my tiny local wargames show is being held in a local school hall than I do about Games Day. Instead of wondering how many plasma cannons I can cram into a 1000 point list I'm trying to find suitable minis to put together a Volksturm army. Instead of painting hideously garish neon Space Marines, I'm seeking out just the right shade of olive green for WW2 US Airborne Helmets.

People complain on Forums for a number of reasons. One is simply to be a ******. Others do it because they genuinly want to see GW do something right and so post it here in the hope someone from the design team passes by it in thier lunch break. Others have been in the hobby so long they've gotten used to GW pushing them into the dirt and then kicking them whilst they're down and come to expect them to screw up whatever they do. But mostly its the second one.

Zip-Lob
30-09-2007, 02:41
i have been painting games workshop miniatures on and off for the last 15 years and have been concentrating on 40k for the last 5 years, Although i dont actually play (because i dont live near any gamers) i keep on top of all game systems.
altough i cant really comment on the changes that have been made to the way the game plays i think the quality of the miniatures has increased imensley.
It really gets my goat up when i read of people slating GW, they are among the most creaive minds on the planet, they create the world of WH40K and i get excited every time the create somting new.
Instead of crying about what you dont like, what about celebrating what you do for a change.

a very happy hobbiest.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Crazy Harborc
30-09-2007, 03:17
If all there is is praise how will there be improvements? Not discussing, pointing out defects, etc is no way to encourage improvments.;)

nanktank
30-09-2007, 04:05
Well I have been playing for 15 years or so now, and I am starting to seriously think if I should keep playing. My opinion of GW has deteriorated to this extent. I dont really think Warseer has influenced it at all, the 2 main factors are my treatment from GW itself and the changing attitudes of my gaming group. The type of games I used to play with any regularity where stuff like Man O War and Necromunda, when they got put into "Specialist Games and brought out LOTR they changed virtually overnight. All of a sudden GW Stores where over run with screaming 8 year olds rather then teenagers like they used to be, the GW store was no longer a place I enjoyed shopping in and although I had armies for 40k and fantasy these games just aren't as exciting what specialist games now are. To be fair there is nothing really GW can do about it, they are now a large company with shareholders who demand a dividend and every decision they make obviously goes towards this.
As for my gaming group the people I used to regulary game with have quit but for one and now with the actual cost of miniatures becoming ridiculous we are both thinking the same thing.

Personally I think GW was good when they didn't have any shareholders and business analysts, when you could order individual bits or older models from the UK and cost cutting hadn't destroyed the molds for them. When you could play a Necromunda or Gorkamorka campaign and watch as your gang or mob got better and better (or worse and worse) The Citadel Journal provided lots of fantastic idea's for modelling and gaming. Yes I think they were an excellent company before they became a corporation.

Arcane_Blade
30-09-2007, 04:13
If all there is is praise how will there be improvements? Not discussing, pointing out defects, etc is no way to encourage improvments.;)

I realise criticism and the like is fundamental for our hobby, as you said, no improvements would be made otherwise. It just seems that there is more negative criticism than positive feedback. Although this could just be an indicator that GW may have gone wrong somewhere, sometimes it seems no-one gives anything a chance, or approaches new releases with an open and balanced mind.



It really gets my goat up when i read of people slating GW, they are among the most creaive minds on the planet, they create the world of WH40K and i get excited every time the create somting new.
Instead of crying about what you dont like, what about celebrating what you do for a change.

I know they are, creating an immersive and entertaining background that draws people in is hard work, and as much as some complain they have done a good job. I'm personally neutral, and these days I, like you, get annoyed on occasion when people seem to only post negative views that in some cases have no real consideration. However, as Crazy Harborc has said, we should take into account criticism may well improve the hobby.


People complain on Forums for a number of reasons. One is simply to be a ******. Others do it because they genuinly want to see GW do something right and so post it here in the hope someone from the design team passes by it in thier lunch break. Others have been in the hobby so long they've gotten used to GW pushing them into the dirt and then kicking them whilst they're down and come to expect them to screw up whatever they do. But mostly its the second one.

That's basically the jist (sp?) of it, however on warseer the third case is rare indeed. I feel this whole mentality could cause some change in peoples opinions, positive or negative.

@miridigi: Exactly what I've been thinking. ;)

@Nanktank: Ah, I see. That does seem to be the general story with a lot of Warseers. I have to admit, my GW suffers much the same problem; being overrun with kids. Do you think Warseer, although having had no real affect on you, has the potential to sway people's opinions? Could stories like this just fuel any annoyance toward GW, or do you think it wouldn't have an effect?

nanktank
30-09-2007, 06:50
@Nanktank: Ah, I see. That does seem to be the general story with a lot of Warseers. I have to admit, my GW suffers much the same problem; being overrun with kids. Do you think Warseer, although having had no real affect on you, has the potential to sway people's opinions? Could stories like this just fuel any annoyance toward GW, or do you think it wouldn't have an effect?

To a certain extent Warseer can mold peoples opinions about GW, for example the latest thread about US mailorder bits, has certainly annoyed a few people who wouldn't otherwise know about it. But to the same extent Warseer can positively influence peoples opinions of GW just look at the amount of excitement over the forth coming Baneblade.
But really if GW were doing a good job then I dont think you would get as many negative experiences related on these forums. I dont for one moment believe warseer is full of embittered naysayers who want to see GW fail, there might be a small group of them but I dont believe that its the majority opinion shared by warseer's

Chaplain Mortez
30-09-2007, 07:29
Generally, I do find myself getting slightly worked up whenever I come to this site. I see all the "boo!" and "hiss!" that goes around, I often see a lot of convincing negativity.

But when I finally sit down to a game, this forum goes out the window. I could care less how broken Harlequins or Dwarf gunlines are, it's sitting in front of me and I'm thinking how I'm going to beat it. The fact is, at that point, I'm having fun and all of the problems in this game don't matter.

This is why I don't like mathhammer--it's too theoretical. It doesn't even sit well when I go to play, I forget about all that mumbo-jumbo. What I'm getting at is that I believe in hands-on learning, as opposed to being theoretical. The internet is really just a bunch of people hiding behind 3,000 mile or kilometer connections, where they can say what they want, when they want, how they want. It's important to just not believe everything you hear, and leave Warseer at the door of your local gaming club or friend's house.

Ozorik
30-09-2007, 08:56
This forum hasnt made me anti-GW. I collected GW minis for 15 years or so but during the last few years there have been a number of things which have annoyed me. Some of which have been serious such as the shoddy rules system and the spiraling prices.

The main issue that I have is the fixation which GW has on the early teen demographic with the exclusion of everyone else. I just dont feel valued as a customer and I became loathe to spend any money on GW products. The last GW product I bought was some paint over a year ago and since I now use vallejo I wont even be doing that again.

Warseer didnt make me anti-GW, GW did. Im not an anti-GW fanatic, I have valid reasons for my stance and if GW got its act together and imitated some of its competors then I may come back to the fold.

rivers3162
30-09-2007, 09:28
I don't think that Warseer in general makes people biased towards GW simply because thats the general vibe of the place. I think it might seem like it does due to the fact that pretty much all GW news finds its way to Warseer first. This makes it the first place where people learn that the bits service is being dropped or theres gonna be another price rise, so the reactions of shock and outrage materialise here first. To some people, this might look like anti-GW feelings but I think its just the reaction to what for a lot of people is another sign that GW doesn't care about the average gamer.

Personally, Warseer opened my eyes to GW and its dealings and motives. Before that I was always ready to defend GW and was far to close to fanboi-ism for my liking. Now I still buy GW figures but I now know that there are other game systems out there made by other companies who I feel value me more as a customer than GW does.

Personally, I think that the golden age of GW was before it became a PLC and before the 40k rules were dumbed down (in 4th ed?). Can't really explain it but there was just such a warm, fuzzy feeling back then.

Crube
30-09-2007, 09:55
It was Gw that biased me against them TBH. When I left the company I became very jaded with all aspects of the hobby. I sold most of my models and books.

Now, in a way due to Warseer, I feel a lot more happy about 'the GW Hobby' and GW as a company.

Sure, there is a lot I dislike. Financially they appear less stable at the moment, but for me, it's all about toy soldiers and fun games, and that's what I get

In addition though, I agree with what rivers3162 says. Warseers has opened my eyes to other systems. I'd never have just bought Flames of War, or AI if not for this site (BTW, my bank manager says 'Thanks a LOT ;))

Pre PLC days, the company was a niche operation, in a niche market. When it became a PLC it tried to punch above its weight. For a while it seemed to work, but it's catching up withh it now.

I used to like the pre PLC days as there was a real variety of systems to play, without having to look elsewhere. I played WFB, 40K, BB, Epic, Man O War, WFRP... all from GW.

scarletsquig
30-09-2007, 13:30
Well, I decided to stop buying from GW long before I joined Warseer (I quit shortly after they killed fanatic press and bumped the boxsets up to 18).

So, Warseer (along with other forums) didn't really create my opinion, they just reinforced the ones I already had. It's always best to be informed rather than ignorant of the stuff going on behind the curtain, plus retailers hate to see us pesky consumers becoming something other than mindless drones with lots of money. ;)

I actually think more people finding out when GW screws up is going to be good for the company in the long run, because it encourages them to fix mistakes rather than shoving them under the carpet and hoping no-one notices, only to repeat them or make them worse a few years later.

I'll have to agree with Warseer being good for hearing about other companies out there that also make a quality product, so in that sense, I'm having a lot more fun with the hobby now than I did back when GW was the only real option.

After reading a thread on Warseer, I bought loads of stuff for Urban War and Metropolis (http://www.urbanmammoth.com/), and am looking into AT-43 (http://www.at-43.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=57&Itemid=253) / Infinity (http://www.infinitythegame.com/eng/rtdo.asp?cat=53&titulo=Welcome%20to%20MAYA:%20&titulo2=Intro) / Warmachine (http://www.privateerpress.com/WARMACHINE/default.php). (click a link, I dare you :p) .

miridigi
30-09-2007, 14:17
...if GW got its act together and imitated some of its competors then I may come back to the fold.

And what are their competitors doing that are so much better than them?

scarletsquig
30-09-2007, 15:02
And what are their competitors doing that are so much better than them?

Listening.

Privateer Press' forum (http://www.privateerpressforums.com/) - read and responded to by a large amount of the company's staff, who are highlighted with the suffix "PPS"
Rackham's AT-43 Suggestions forum - "Your ideas and suggestions about AT-43." (http://en-forum.at-43.com/viewforum.php?f=11&sid=7ed529c4b72811d256ac165173210e8e) They'll get a bit cranky if you start talking about their finances, but if it's a problem with the models or the rules you're addressing, it's read and responded to by the staff.
Urban Mammoth's forum (http://urbanmammoth.invisionzone.com/) Even more laid-back.. the people that own the company have thousands of posts on their own forum and it's easy to contact them directly.

Also, they are better at supporting their games with printed material. I like to read, so this is very important to me.

PP and Rackham have No Quarter and Cry Havoc, both of which are insanely better than WD in quality. Urban Mammoth hosts a bi-montly fanzine on it's site (this is the rough equivilent of GW allowing FIREBASE to be hosted on it's website), and the "downloads" section of the site has 200 MB of free .pdfs which includes the complete rulebooks.

Sorry for going offtopic there, just addressing the question. :)

Mad Doc Grotsnik
30-09-2007, 16:53
Or at least, giving the pretence that they are listening.

In GWs defence, they have the biggest market share, thus the biggest number of players. This means if open up a Forum to open criticism, all you get are hundreds and hundreds of voices, all saying different things, all declaring themselves to be the one truth amongst a sea of idiots.

It would be nice if GW had some fool proof way of asking, but they don't at the moment!

swordwind
30-09-2007, 17:32
Battlefront are also very active on thier forums finding out what people think they could do better aswell as rules issues which they then publish in FAQs every few weeks. Another nice touch was the cut down rules for tank combat they published in the newest Flames of War catalogue to advertise thier new King Tiger. When FoW was updated to the second edition they also published free update booklets so the people with first edition rulebooks didnt have to pay again to play the latest set. When was the last time GW handed out free rules?

And dont get me started on the leaves they could take out of the Forum of Doom companies customer service books...

Reinholt
30-09-2007, 22:01
Several points...

First, I saw this quote above (notably, *not* apparently made by the person who posted it, so don't attribute it to them, though I've seen the equivalent stated):


Others have been in the hobby so long they've gotten used to GW pushing them into the dirt and then kicking them whilst they're down and come to expect them to screw up whatever they do.

I don't know about your experience, but I've never had any kind of physical altercation with GW employees. It is certainly not the case that I am assaulted while attempting to buy or use their products. In fact, mostly their stores are clean and the employees there are sometimes socially functional, which is pretty spectacular for such a geeky hobby. I've never had a single one attempt to kick me, nor throw dirt, much less push me in it. These kinds of statements are so hyperbolic as to be asinine when people make them.

Seriously, unless you brother was killed by a flying metal dreadnought hurled by a GW employee or something, give it a rest. If you don't like their games, you are free at any time to stop buying their products and playing their games.

This is a purely voluntary activity.

Secondly, I do agree with the point on GW "listening" and customer concerns. One of the major issues large companies frequently run into is how to relate to their customers. I would argue the official GW forums were, in fact, a failure, simply because they became such a cesspool of human filth and whining. However, having a system where questions can be submitted through their website and the best ones answered on a monthly basis, or maybe a non-commentable blog or similar outlet for some of the designers (possibly heavily edited by someone in PR to avoid any blowups, as people read way too much into things), a better layout for WD, and the like could go a very long way to providing some meaningful communication.

To me, GW is a pretty good company with several flaws preventing it from being great. Some people dwell on the negative (especially with company for their complaints), some people like the positive, and some people are balanced.

You see more of the former on web forums because it's no fun to complain alone.

swordwind
30-09-2007, 23:06
Its a figure of speech :eyebrows:

Mad Doc Grotsnik
30-09-2007, 23:30
Also, people complain online due to the anonymity.

Many complain of shoddy rules, yet, I'v seen very little evidence of this myself. Even started a thread on the subject, only to be regaled with lists of things apparently 'not very realistic'

Mostly, people complain because they have nothing else in their lives to complain about. Which is enviable really.

RavenMorpheus
01-10-2007, 00:34
Not sure whether this is the right place, but here we go.

I've been thinking about a couple of things lately, and I wondered what you guys thought about them.

I was reminiscing back to my first days in the hobby. I joined back in 2002, not a scratch on how long many of you have been part of it but it feels like the hobby has been with me most of my life. I remembered how great it felt to play and how great the whole atmosphere was. Then I found the GW forums, happily reading peoples posts and getting sucked further into the hobby.

Then I began reading the WD section of the forums. The growing number of opposition to the current state of the publication swayed me, making me judge every little thing in the magazine and making me sigh with annoyance at their 'stupidity'. Slowly but surely, I became judgmental and displeased with the thing I'd loved since my early steps into GW. Now, to be fair, I'd began to fall out with WD when they began filling it up with advertisments, and especially when they removed the team page. But the GW forums really turned me against it.

Then, a while before the boards fell, I found Warseer. I was amazed by the boards, and I quickly settled here, rarely venturing back to the GW forums. However, I was shocked at the, what seemed to me, constant anti GW comments. Whether it was a full blown moan, or just a prod at the company with a sly comment about a model, I was surprised. It seemed that, when I joined, it was almost a trend to give GW a little kick.

Over time however, I began to think the same. I saw the company as failing and that everything they did was utter rubbish. True enough, some models were, and are, pretty damn bad compared to what I first remember, but it seemed at first that everything they did wasn't anywhere near as good as it could be. Eventually, I became anti GW. Not completely against it, just disliking of the company, seeing every little thing as bad and feeling a twinge every time I looked at an ad in WD. It wasn't until recently that I realised, perhaps I was being a little harsh, and became a little fairer. But it seemed that the members of Warseer had changed my opinion on GW just as the previous forums had on my feeling toward WD. Had Warseer really turned me against GW?

Secondly, I've found that some Veterans on the site talk about 'the good old days', and mention how GW's been on the decline financially and generally. While I make no disagreement toward the comments on GW's decline, in fact I agree with many of the points made, I presume that based on how good those old days were, GW was financially secure. Or were they? Was GW any better financially say, ten or fifteen years after it began than now?

So my questions to you Warseer's are; Has Warseer and other related forums (through no deliberate action) biased members views on the hobby and GW? And my second question, was GW any better a good few years back than now financially?

Cheers.

In my day it was allll rosy :D

Seriously though I don't think GW are any better or worse than they have been in the past, just different.

They seem to have adopted the American "we'll take 'em for all we can get" business model and is now aiming at rather more wealthy people, rather than actually aiming the hobby at and supporting the average gamer in the street who is at the core of the hobby imo - and yeah I know they need to make a profit but there's making a profit and then there's making a profit.

I also agree that Warseer and other such forums can bias people, although I wouldn't exactly say it's biasing people rather it is allowing people to share their views and have them agreed with by others who share the same views, it's just a shame that GW don't seem to pay attention to those views, not to my knowledge anyway - I'm sure there are people who are members of GW who are "secret" members here who could voice some of the complaints about pricing, rules errata etc. at GW HQ so that they were taken note of.

Crazy Harborc
01-10-2007, 01:07
I really doubt that a worth mentioning percentage of GW customers or GW's products users spend time on Warseer. I do think that the opinions posted on Warseer about GW can and do have an influence on the reader's opinions.

IMHO, it would be a very good thing if the suits at GW were to start paying close attention to what we on Warseer think in relation to GW.;)

Shane Roach
01-10-2007, 01:58
I really doubt that a worth mentioning percentage of GW customers or GW's products users spend time on Warseer. I do think that the opinions posted on Warseer about GW can and do have an influence on the reader's opinions.

IMHO, it would be a very good thing if the suits at GW were to start paying close attention to what we on Warseer think in relation to GW.;)

That's odd. Almost everyone I know that plays knows about Warseer...?

The other thing from this thread that strikes me is the odd comment about not seeing anything unrealistic about the rules.

Weapon length, not personal speed, determines who strikes first in large formations.

How is it a hero who is completely unentangled cannot answer a challenge but a hero engaged in combat in the first rank can answer a challenge from the back rank?

Why after all the years this game has been in print there is still no well defined process for dealing with clipping in charges?

This is the first year they ever thought maybe anyone might want to use an index to look up rules... How many decades before they clarify and finally publish all the dozens of errata questions that are either haphazardly addressed on their faq page or (Dear God, dare I hope for better??) just utterly left unanswered at all with the glib advice, "just dice off for it"?

To explain how any of this ties into this thread's actual subject, a lot of hobbiests have no idea that this hobby survived and thrived for years without large corporate "leadership", and after running again and again into the wall of "copyright infringement" and corporate intimidation in everything from text based rpg's to websites dedicated to this or that wargame, I am pretty fed up with not just GW, but the hobby in general.

My choices seem to be to either stop playing or try to find like minded people and eventually find ways to enjoy myself doing something I have enjoyed since I was 12.

I choose to continue finding ways to enjoy the hobby. A growing percentage of the time that involved bucking the "man" (inasmuch as any of the goofy game companies can be likened to "the man").

Persnally if they'd just let go their stranglehold on the creative process, that would fix 90% of my beefs. In a hobby where most of the fun is derived from exercising my own imagination, it is simply the antithesis of what I enjoy about it all to be told that if I "publish" (including just putting too mucn info on a web page, or even a single post on a forum) too mucn information alongside my own that I am infringing on their "rights".

Even that wouldn't be so bad if they would fix really dumb mistakes, but it seems instead what happens is you get something akin to what I hear from some on this very thread. "Oh, you're just complaining because your life is so sad you have nothing better to do." The official company line apparently is that I am a whiner.

Maybe so. I don't know. I just know I don't feel any particular drive to make things easy on people who I am buying stuff from. If someone is willing to give me something I like better for less, that's where I am eventually going to go. Who knows, maybe those people will find me less of a whiney baby as well.

Frankly, the only reason I play Warhammer is because that is what most the people who play fantasy wargames use right now, and if I get half a chance to change I probably will.

First order of business, a system that allows multiple armies fighting at the same time, for instance...

How many years does GW need in the business before they get THAT little glitch taken care of?

No rules problems indeed...

Crazy Harborc
01-10-2007, 03:20
The reason for my statement about a likely low percentage of GW systems players being Warseer members too.........GW claims that there are 750,000 GW gamers world wide. Um, I don't think they are here.

If it turns out that a majority or just a decent percentage of GW's systems users are on Warseer....that is great. Um, in the years I've played WHFB and or 40K, I have met a couple of hundred people because of WHFB & 40K. 4 of them have been part of Portent and or Warseer.

Shane Roach
01-10-2007, 05:28
The reason for my statement about a likely low percentage of GW systems players being Warseer members too.........GW claims that there are 750,000 GW gamers world wide. Um, I don't think they are here.

If it turns out that a majority or just a decent percentage of GW's systems users are on Warseer....that is great. Um, in the years I've played WHFB and or 40K, I have met a couple of hundred people because of WHFB & 40K. 4 of them have been part of Portent and or Warseer.

Yeah, that's hard for me to really judge. I mean, I knew about Warseer but only saw fit to post the first time last week, so where do I fall in either statistic?

I spend most of my online time related to GW between the local sight for Austin, GW's site, and a handful of fig shopping and painting sites.

I guess it all boils down to whether "a worth mentioning percentage" is necessarily the same thing as regular users. This site is quoted on other hobby related sites (like the one in Austin) with a fair amount of frequency. It has a certain amount of influence that is not necessarily reflected in the site's own statistics.

Aside from all of that, the civil unrest amongst gaming hobbiests was something I was aware of in the late 80's, well before the internet was much of a player at all in the tabletop hobby scene. Back then most of the hate I heard about was reserved for Gary Gygax though. A lot of people just feel that militant copyright protection and a hobby whose entire existence revovles around a more or less collective shared fantasy are mutually exclusive concepts. The games were developed by large groups of people, many of whome none of us will ever know or hear of because they chose not to do it as a business. By the time anyone knew what was going to become of the hobby when it DID become a business, it was too late to lay claim to what ought to have been considered public domain materials and ensure they did not get coopted and squatted all over by the corporations, which is where the hobby finds itself now.

Preface everything I say with, "in my opinion," but for newer hobbiests who wonder at all the angst over a silly game, there you have it. It is a longstanding disagreement that does not seem set for settlement anytime soon, unless gaming companies just en masse begin to adopt the open gaming license.

Osbad
01-10-2007, 10:04
As one who has made his fair share of contribution towards it, I recognise the innate bias of pretty much any forum towards a skeptical, even cynical view.

My own perspective comes from having been a fan of the LotR game, and being in at the ground level as TheLastAlliance.com was set up, and rapidly became a focus for onlin LotR-gaming.

In the early days there was very little criticism of GW. Sure the prices were high, but they felt cheaper than WFB because of smaller unit sizes, and many of us preferred the new look and style of them. Plus of course there was all the film hype creating a massive "buzz".

But over time things soured, and now while many still love the game, there is rarely a positive comment made about GW as a corporate entity.

It is hard to put a finger on why there was a change. But I believe it was because of an increasing realisation that what we were engaged in was not some sort of loose "partnership" or co-operative venture between the designers and vendors on the one hand and the players on the other, but that in reality, we were simply "customers", and other than as it effected our propensity to dip our hands in our wallets, our opinions were of zero value to the corporation.

Now that may feel unfair - GW is a PLC and bound to earn a profit. No one argued with the premise. The problem was that via their stores and (at the time) WD, they encouraged the view that it was all one big club that we were part of.

While there was that feeling that "we are all in it together", then players were inclined to be forgiving than they are now when it is abundantly clear that we are only "customers" with minimal opportunity to influence everything.

So nowadays, anyone who has been around for any length of time is predisposed towards snarkiness. Simply because they have seen the implementation of too many decisions (>inflation price rises, nerfing of WD, numerous new editions of WFB and 40k, etc., ) that are designed to increase GW profits (which no one minds) while feeling like they offer poorer value for money for the customer (which we all mind).

As a corporate entity GW is inclined to only offer as little value for as much money as it can get away with. However from the other side of the fence, them operating in this way with increasing obviousness (who in their right mind considers WD333 better value for money than, say, WD 290?) has made their fanbase increasingly hostile because it felt like (whether or not it was the case in reality) that we used to get a better deal from them.

It is my feeling that forums simply emphasise your opinions. They don't particularly alter them unless they bring to your attention something you hadn't thought of before. So for instance if you are reasonably affluent and only buy a handful of models a month, then you may not have been particularly bothered about price rises. But if then you read a thread that explains that the price of X model has gone up by 50% in two years, then you will feel badly towards GW for it.

It can work the other way of course - if you see a thread relating a really good game of Aeronautica Imperialis say, which is barely supported by GW at all other than in their FW advertising material, then you may be inclined to feel more positively towards GW than you would have done otherwise.

In summary I see Warseer and the like as being magnifiers of opinion purely and simply. You read bad things about GW in them because people already feel p'eed off with GW and need to vent or share. Sure you get the odd uninformed nugget chiming in, but generally people only post what they genuinely feel. If you allow yourself to be swayed too much by that then either you are easily led and of weak "moral fibre" ;) or you probably haven't thought much about the issue before.

So it is no more fair to criticise Warseer for "anti-GW" bias, than it is fair to criticise GW for its "pro-GW" bias in WD...!

No-one expects GW to be "fair and balanced" in its self-promotion, so why should Warseer posters feel the need to be fair and balanced overall in their postings? Sure we shouldn't lie or make things up or jump on bandwagons with no thought, but there's no reason we shouldn't simply express what we feel.

Crazy Harborc
02-10-2007, 01:21
My gut reaction at this time;)

The anti-GW attitude in many, many threads/posts here and on other sites, is NOT created by the sites. If there were no unhappy GW customers or ex-customers.......there would NOT be as many "biased against GW" threads and or posts as there are now (and have been for several years).

Bloody Gauntlet
04-10-2007, 12:23
I'm in the 'hobby' more than a dozen years. There have always been some negative feelings around about GW during this time. Like "they are pushing independant retailers out of business", "their prices are hilariously high", "the rules are unbalanced" etc.

But all the time, the company has endured. It had it's hard times, too (management buy-out etc.). This should make you think. It has to mean something, doesn't it? (Like "nothing's ever perfect" or "you don't need to do something in a perfect manner, you just have to deliver what's absolutely needed - everything else is bonus" or "every business is just show business").

In short:
- The company itself hasn't changed profoundly measured in comparison to it's business area's development (!!!).
- Product quality, be it books, rules or miniatures, has risen constantly (on average).
- Critics have been around since Adam and Eve's. They change opinions, or get criticised/ignored for their failures (or incompatible measuring standards).
- The "modern age of computer electronics" enables everybody (yes, even you and me) to have his "minute of glory" by posting in the www (the "world"). And posting and expressing negatives is always easier than creating/analyzing/developing sound, all compassing positive advice. That's the nature of the beast.

Summary:
Posting of and scanning for opinions in forums is the modern form of "bitching" and gossipping. It can be amusing, irritating, offending etc., but in truth it's never more than (mostly) meaningless chit-chat. And I think (hope?) that everybody minds that, before taking anything to heart... even if most people let themselves sometimes be fooled into getting biased by gossip. (I know I have been, but thinking does help in correcting or even preventing this. ;))

PS Nothing written in this forum can biase my opinion on my hobby - as long as the hobby suits me and satifies my corresponding needs. In the end, it's just a hobby and gossipping about it...
PPS In concordance with my posting, I don't expect any positive/constructive responses to this post - nor would it be meaningful... :p

Crazy Harborc
05-10-2007, 01:09
Rumor has it that very possibily if it wasn't for the biased against GW threads some posters would have less to post about. Some posters do seem to need complainers to complain about.:D

Ravenous
05-10-2007, 01:25
People complain on Forums for a number of reasons. One is simply to be a ******. Others do it because they genuinly want to see GW do something right and so post it here in the hope someone from the design team passes by it in thier lunch break. Others have been in the hobby so long they've gotten used to GW pushing them into the dirt and then kicking them whilst they're down and come to expect them to screw up whatever they do. But mostly its the second one.

Quoted for Truth.

Some people are so used to GW either screwing up, being blind, or messing with the little guy they have become numb to it.

GAWD
05-10-2007, 03:31
Also, people complain online due to the anonymity.

Many complain of shoddy rules, yet, I'v seen very little evidence of this myself. Even started a thread on the subject, only to be regaled with lists of things apparently 'not very realistic'

Mostly, people complain because they have nothing else in their lives to complain about. Which is enviable really.

It has nothing to do w/anonymity. It's about having a venue to vent our frustrations and ultimately share our criticisms w/others.

As for the issues w/rules ... several people w/college degrees (even MAs & PhDs) have discoursed ad nauseam about the glaring weaknesses in the rulesets. For example: Have a quick jaunt to the Dev. forum and virtually everything Nurglitch does addresses some sort of stupidity in GW's own rules.

Actually we complain b/c we care ... at least we used to care. I've noticed a decrease in criticism over the past couple years, not surprisingly coincident w/GW's sales tanking. Lots of people just don't care enough anymore.

But what is most amusing for me (us), is that our criticism has had an impact in how people view the games. As this thread proves and the OP demonstrates, web forums change people's minds.

GW could interact more here and there to counteract the critics but they don't (despite Gav throwing us a bone a while back). However, I'd argue that they can't, our criticisms of them is, by and large, truthful.

CaptScott
05-10-2007, 09:19
I love GW, they're doing the best they can

please don't hurt me...

;)

Shane Roach
07-10-2007, 16:27
I love GW, they're doing the best they can

please don't hurt me...

;)

Your dog is too cute!!!! :mad:

Scary aint I? :chrome:

Shane Roach
07-10-2007, 16:38
I'm in the 'hobby' more than a dozen years. There have always been some negative feelings around about GW during this time. Like "they are pushing independant retailers out of business", "their prices are hilariously high", "the rules are unbalanced" etc.

But all the time, the company has endured. It had it's hard times, too (management buy-out etc.). This should make you think. It has to mean something, doesn't it? (Like "nothing's ever perfect" or "you don't need to do something in a perfect manner, you just have to deliver what's absolutely needed - everything else is bonus" or "every business is just show business").

In short:
- The company itself hasn't changed profoundly measured in comparison to it's business area's development (!!!).
- Product quality, be it books, rules or miniatures, has risen constantly (on average).
- Critics have been around since Adam and Eve's. They change opinions, or get criticised/ignored for their failures (or incompatible measuring standards).
- The "modern age of computer electronics" enables everybody (yes, even you and me) to have his "minute of glory" by posting in the www (the "world"). And posting and expressing negatives is always easier than creating/analyzing/developing sound, all compassing positive advice. That's the nature of the beast.

Summary:
Posting of and scanning for opinions in forums is the modern form of "bitching" and gossipping. It can be amusing, irritating, offending etc., but in truth it's never more than (mostly) meaningless chit-chat. And I think (hope?) that everybody minds that, before taking anything to heart... even if most people let themselves sometimes be fooled into getting biased by gossip. (I know I have been, but thinking does help in correcting or even preventing this. ;))

PS Nothing written in this forum can biase my opinion on my hobby - as long as the hobby suits me and satifies my corresponding needs. In the end, it's just a hobby and gossipping about it...
PPS In concordance with my posting, I don't expect any positive/constructive responses to this post - nor would it be meaningful... ***I, Shane, have deleted your cute smilie because I was over my limit for this post. Let it be known throughout the universe that the original poster did indeed make it clear he was goofing around!***

:wtf:

Gossip? Has GW been sleeping with Betty again? :D

I don't see what any of your bullet points have to do with your summary. I think I'll stick by my opinion that the reason people complain here is because they have legit gripes that do not get addressed there (i.e. at GW).

I do like the books. They are my favorite gaming books so far in terms of pictures and game setting. I think that and the (relative) simplicity of their rules set in comparison to other miniatures is probably at the heart of their success. I don't think that means people should be ashamed to share their criticisms though. *shrugs*

I am not sure I understand Crazy Harborc's comment correctly, but if he means that it seems odd to jump into a thread to complain about people because they complain, I agree. :eek: It is a fairly common thing to see in general human interaction though. It always bugs me because (a) complaining about complaining is still complaining and (b) it sort of implies some sort of moral weakness on the part of people who point out faults and criticize, which seems to me to kneecap all possibility of progress or improvement.

Crazy Harborc
07-10-2007, 17:04
That is what I was about in my post.

I did not mention that IMHO, some of the complainers about complainers can and do come across as being afraid that a complainer is somehow bringing them down because they are backers/fans of what is being complained about.

IMHO, there are people who no matter what is said will disagree and complain because others dare to disagree and dare to excerise their rights to speak out.;)

Shane Roach
07-10-2007, 17:40
That is what I was about in my post.

I did not mention that IMHO, some of the complainers about complainers can and do come across as being afraid that a complainer is somehow bringing them down because they are backers/fans of what is being complained about.

IMHO, there are people who no matter what is said will disagree and complain because others dare to disagree and dare to excerise their rights to speak out.;)

There does tend to be a certain resistance to boat-rocking.

I don't really mean to rock anyone's boat though... but.. yeah, I get you.

:D

selfconstrukt
07-10-2007, 19:07
People need to complain in order to vent their frustrations. It used to be you would vent to your friends, but now that the internet is a daily part of our lives, the forums have picked up that ball.

Why people complain about GW is as varied as the players themselves. Just about anything can set someone off depending on the circumstances.

Myself, I dislike GW, but I don't hate them. Mainly my dislike comes from working for them, and seeing how the company itself has changed over the years.
It used to be almost every employee there was "in the hobby" to some extent or other, but when I moved to the Memphis facility, there were only 3 people who either played the game or painted the models. Most of the other employees were clueless (incl management staff) and Memphis being in the "Bible belt" many employees felt the game was "satanic and evil" and tried to get me to go to church with them several times, until the HR manager had to get involved.
Yes, I thought that was funny as well with hindsight.

Recently 2 of those employees were terminated, 1 for less than ethical reasons on GW's part. His termination was based on a lie, which was admitted to by an employee involved as well. But its done and over with, regardless of the effect it has on the current employees (lowered moral, intense distrust of management etc). That also affects my feelings towards GW for obvious reasons.

GW managers frequently use the phrase "****who?" when someone who lo longer works there comes up in conversation (then they laugh). The completely disavow any involvement or contributions of the former employee, which bothers me since many of those former staffers came up with ideas and improvements GW still uses.
No matter what you do for GW, how well you perform etc. that is how you will be treated when you leave, "****who?" and no current staffer will admit you ever did anything of value.

Since GW became a PLC it has turned almost completely "corporate" which in turn has affected the way it deals with it's customers. They no longer see the hobbyists and such, they are customers only and GW's job is to make money from those customers.

I do still paint GW models, but I also decided to show my "rebellion" against GW brainwashing by painting models by other companies as well like Privateer, Crocodile Games and others.

IMHO it has come to the point that no matter what GW does, people will accept it, remain apathetic and take what GW gives them. The only way to stop this is to try and complain to someone who might listen, which is why many here do complain.

We are disappointed in what GW has become, or is doing and we would like to think that GW cares, but in reality we know deep down they just want our money.

For me that is the reason I complain, GW is no longer a "home away from home" and is just another store.