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EvC
30-09-2007, 00:56
An opponent is claiming that his detachments Always Strike First when they coutnercharge... is this correct? Does that mean it would go down to Initiative if they've countercharged a unit with Hellish Vigour (Which makes my own unit always strike first)..?

Lord Tzeentch
30-09-2007, 01:42
Well they get the charge which means they strike before the charging unit. But if you have the strike first ability then your zombies should give them a slap before they they hit you back. Tho i could be wrong haven't got the new book (I'm old school;)) But i do think that its just the fact their always charging that they strike first. Have a read of his book and see.

alextroy
30-09-2007, 05:41
A Countercharging Detachment attacks in a nebulous zone known as before the charging unit. They do not gain the Always Strikes First special rule.

Ganymede
30-09-2007, 06:17
A Countercharging Detachment attacks first, as well as the charging unit that was countercharged. To determine who strikes before whom, compare initiative. It can happen that the countercharged unit will actually strike before the detetchment.

Goldenwolf
30-09-2007, 08:02
Lord Tzeentch is correct. The Detachment would normally strike first, but if a special rule or spell allows the unit charging to strike first, then they go first.

DeathlessDraich
30-09-2007, 09:03
It depends on how you want to interpret the Detachment rules. It does not use the common phrase "strikes first" or "has the strike first ability".

"resolve the countercharging detachment attacks first".

Whether this is similar to an Assasin's 'strikes first ability' or a Plague Censer's 'strike before anything else' is open to question.

The problem extends further. Hellish Vigour's rules does *not* include the usual - "If the enemy has the same ability, compare I and, roll a dice if I is the same".

It may be best to assume that both rules, Detachment and Hellish Vigour, allude to the 'strike first ability' in the normal way as the others have stated.

Festus
30-09-2007, 09:52
Hi

The Detatchments don' have Strike First, but strike in charger's sequence, which means that they nearly always go first in a countercharge. Only things before that usually are: Always strike first abilities, weapons or spells, and Impact hits from Chariots, Ogres, etc. , and Slayerwhirlwinds of death - in reversed order BTW...

... and there is a tiebreaker for all strike first conflicts in 7 now, DDraich: p.96


FEstus

yabbadabba
30-09-2007, 22:43
" the detachment can declare a normal charge"
" the countercharge follows all the normal rules for charges"
"In the close combat phase resolve the countercharging detachment's attacks first, then resolve the attacks of the enemy, then the parent unit that was charged"

My reading of this is this is resolved as a normal combat, with the exception being that the detachment attacks before the charging unit regardless of Initiative. However, it stresses that this is a normal charge, and makes no exclusion for Always strikes first e.t.c. Therefore, to me, it would go:

Special "strike first" Attacks, Detachment, Enemy, Parent unit.

I am not sure how it would go with Hellish Vigour cos I don't have that too hand.

T10
01-10-2007, 07:44
As far as I can tell, only the Detachment's counter-charge rules allow a unit to strike before the chargers, but after the Always Strikes First.

Note that the detachment rules appear to specify a fixed sequence to attacks, but don't let that fool you. Zombies strike last even when charging, so a counter-charge against a charging unit of Zombies results in:

1. Detachment
2. Parent Unit
3. Zombies

-T10

WLBjork
01-10-2007, 08:32
Except when Hellish Vigour is cast on the unit. Hellish Vigour specifically allows Zombies (and indeed, any other unit targetted with the spell) to Strike First.

EvC
01-10-2007, 11:14
Yeah uhh I can't think of anyone who would be fooled into thinking the fact that a Detachment counter charged a unit of normal Zombies would somehow let the Zombies strike before the parent unit...

T10
01-10-2007, 12:52
It says they do in the detachment rules... :)

-T10

EvC
01-10-2007, 13:45
Yeah but it'd have to be a pretty silly pair of players to not realise that the Zombies' always strikes last rule takes precedent ;)

kaulem
01-10-2007, 20:58
and we all know that foolish WFB players never come in pairs... :)