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Admiral Samuel Eden
30-09-2007, 22:51
Love em, Hate, you cant help but hate em. (unless you play necrons) They are nightmares to fight with possibly best stat line in the game and if overlooked, (not that its possible) then they can turn an army to mince meat. But are they as scary as theyre rules suggest. The one thing I can say about them is that every time someones fielded one Ive decimated theyre army. As theyre so good why could i kill them so easily. I like necrons and the C'tan are cool to say the least. The thing is, an effective necron list uses lots of warriors and a couple of necron lords with a monolith. Do the C'tan fit? How many necron players use them? Discuss at will.

Zanzibarthefirst
30-09-2007, 22:58
Whilst i dont use it all the time, i sometimes use my deceiver if i can do without a res orb or i'm not taking my monolith. apoc is a really good place to take them.
C'tan do have a lot of problems. Mainly their speed, they are slow!!!!! if only they could deep strike, emerge from monolith, or something.

Admiral Samuel Eden
30-09-2007, 23:22
Yeh they are slow and they should be able to use the monolith. The 0-1 is taken off in apocalypse so yeh thats great with a maximum of 4 C'tan on the field. AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!! !!!!!

RavenMorpheus
30-09-2007, 23:22
Love em, Hate, you cant help but hate em. (unless you play necrons) They are nightmares to fight with possibly best stat line in the game and if overlooked, (not that its possible) then they can turn an army to mince meat. But are they as scary as theyre rules suggest. The one thing I can say about them is that every time someones fielded one Ive decimated theyre army. As theyre so good why could i kill them so easily. I like necrons and the C'tan are cool to say the least. The thing is, an effective necron list uses lots of warriors and a couple of necron lords with a monolith. Do the C'tan fit? How many necron players use them? Discuss at will.

Whenever I've come up against the C'Tan I've usually been up against Deathbringer...

...And lost. I seem to shoot it with all I've got and I still don't manage to take it down, odd really :confused:

Having said that I have used them when I've used a Necron army, (my mates and I don't always use wysiwyg, we represent models with similar sized models, that way we can play as any army without buying the miniatures - we do that cos we're kind of strapped for cash, most of the time, life, bills etc...) I mainly use the Deathbringer and it seems to dominate those games as well.

The_Outsider
01-10-2007, 00:04
As I play 1500 I find it hard to justify a C'tan (there are better things to spend the points on) so I don't field one 99% of the time.

Sekhmet
01-10-2007, 01:03
Love em, Hate, you cant help but hate em. (unless you play necrons) They are nightmares to fight with possibly best stat line in the game and if overlooked, (not that its possible) then they can turn an army to mince meat. But are they as scary as theyre rules suggest. The one thing I can say about them is that every time someones fielded one Ive decimated theyre army. As theyre so good why could i kill them so easily. I like necrons and the C'tan are cool to say the least. The thing is, an effective necron list uses lots of warriors and a couple of necron lords with a monolith. Do the C'tan fit? How many necron players use them? Discuss at will.

I'm confused.. what are you saying?

You hate them, they're nightmares with "possible best stat line in the game", they're scary... but you always decimate people who use them?

I'm confused.

Joewrightgm
01-10-2007, 01:10
I usually drop a C'tan to the table for fun games, mega-battles, and now with apocalypse, the Nightbringer is definitly going to make an appearence.

That said, my "all-comers" list I usually drop at my local game store does not have a C'tan.

Cry of the Wind
01-10-2007, 01:45
I've never played a game with my necrons big enough to use one. I can't really see myself using one in the future either although it's more of a fluff thing. I can understand certain special characters in 40k games but to me using a C'tan is kindda like using the Emperor or some other super character like that. Also the lack of speed is a major reason for me not using one for tactical reasons as well.

Admiral Samuel Eden
01-10-2007, 03:12
Sekhment: What im saying is that theyre scary and they usually chew through whatever is thrown at them but when ive faced people who use the C'tan they become ignorant of whats going on as they watch their monster slaughter a squad or two, failing to realize that the rest of his army is being Annihilated. Another case is that the C'tan in its self is an amazing model but it seems it cant coordinate itself with the rest of the force. And just because something is scary doesnt mean its unbeatable. For even the greatest man can be overwhelmed. Besides, I like melta weapons and I usually drop a couple of squads toting heavy weapons/assault weapons behind the thing and kill it that way. Its tough but its save isnt that impressive. 4+. I like the idea of the C'tan but in coherence with the rest of a necron force they are tactically ineffectual and become 1 man armies. I must admit I play medium point games and I can understand theyre effectiveness in large point battles. However if its 2000 points or less then the presents of a C'tan simply makes less necrons you need to kill before the necrons phase out. 350pts for the Nightbringer = 19 necron warriors. That 1 and 1 ninths of a squad!

RavenMorpheus: Its the Nightbringer not the Deathbringer.

The_Outsider: I agree, there are better things to spend your points on. The C'tan dont fit in with the necron tactical concept. Youre better off with 2 Necron Lords, 1-2 Monoliths and loads of Warriors. If you want hitting power then youve got wraiths and Pariahs. And yes they are too slow.

Sekhmet
01-10-2007, 03:24
I like the idea of the C'tan but in coherence with the rest of a necron force they are tactically ineffectual and become 1 man armies. I must admit I play medium point games and I can understand theyre effectiveness in large point battles. However if its 2000 points or less then the presents of a C'tan simply makes less necrons you need to kill before the necrons phase out. 350pts for the Nightbringer = 19 necron warriors. That 1 and 1 ninths of a squad!


Try read this (link was in my sig too):
http://warseer.com/forums/40k-tactics/41510-tactica-c-tan.html

C'tan are less effective in 2000+ than in 1750 or 1500.

setekhite
01-10-2007, 08:28
Shouldn't this poll have an option of 'occasionally use one'?

Anyway, I have a Deciever on hand for scenario games. He doesn't see much use in normal combat (despite being, IMO, by far the more tactically flexible of the two C'tan) but is there for special occasions - for example, when I want to ally my Necrons with another army.

Tensor
01-10-2007, 08:34
Generaly, my gaming group is against the use of special characters at all. That obviously includes C'tan. I have fielded The Deceiever onb odd occasion and will almost cetainly take him in large Apoc games.

I also can see that the general attitude to special characters is going to have to change. They are now pretty much listed as just another HQ choice - and often one that changes army list composition. i think we'll see them used more often in the future.

IJW
01-10-2007, 08:34
The 0-1 is taken off in apocalypse so yeh thats great with a maximum of 4 C'tan on the field.
The Deceiver, possibly. But where are you going to find stats for the others, or an opponent who agrees to it?

Imperialis_Dominatus
01-10-2007, 16:12
Yeh they are slow and they should be able to use the monolith. The 0-1 is taken off in apocalypse so yeh thats great with a maximum of 4 C'tan on the field. AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!! !!!!!

Aaaargh is right. How can you field four C'tan? There's one, in the galaxy, of each type, and two have rules. You can't realistically use four. Besides, they should be treated like special characters anyway, but they're not, just another HQ choice. While I'd never prevent someone from using a special character, I'd at least like the choice. Not letting them use it would be a ******** move. Even though I despise large, powerful MC out of habit, being a former IG player.

Second, what's all this guff about C'tan using the Monolith? I think that'd be a tad unbalanced and also go somewhat against their fluff- the full extent to which the C'tan use the technology of the Necrons is in that their massive system-spanning celestial bodies are condensed into the archetypal forms we see in the models. You don't see the deciever throwing balls of gauss or the nightbringer wielding a particle whip and being like all "1 4m t3h pwnz0r." No. They are gods, man. Gods don't need the aid of their pathetic subjects.

A C'tan's main purpose seems to be threat anyway. The enemy focuses on the nearly indestructible death machine that will not reach his lines before the rest of the Necron army, which will slaughter him. An expensive diversion. That's only how I've seen it used, however.

Longer post than I'd thought it would be.

FigureFour
01-10-2007, 16:25
I can understand certain special characters in 40k games but to me using a C'tan is kindda like using the Emperor or some other super character like that.

Obviously the C'Tan unit in 40k represents a portion of a star god's power invested in a physical shell in order to create a battlefield avatar, not the incarnate god himself.

Seriously people.


If you want hitting power then youve got wraiths and Pariahs. And yes they are too slow.

AHAHAHAHAHA!

Wraiths for hitting power? And pariahs aren't too slow?

Anyway, I'll be using a C'Tan in my army as soon as I go and buy one.

Nargus
01-10-2007, 16:35
Nightbringer is the single most powerful model in the game, i'll grant you. BUT.

1) Agree with above - even ghosting through terrain they are too slow.

2) Because of above, they are easily avoided. 'Here mr star god, these scouts should hold you up for a turn..which is long enough for the rest of my army to ESCAPE YOU!'

3) They will kill most of a unit (if not all of it) a turn..but thats still not a great return on the points..they don't get to do it often enough..

4) They are a huge chunk of points in an army and only become feasible the higher points you go..but the higher points means more lascannons on the enemy, and they've got to bite sometime..

In all my career as a Necron player, i've used Nightbringer only a few times..although i probably will more in apocalypse..but in that format he's no more scary than a Baneblade..

And incidentally: Pariahs suck the big one, because they are not necrons (No WBB, No Monolith teleport, no res orb, nothing), and not great fighters and their big 'psyker destruction' ability means they fail their psychic tests 5% more often or something rubbish like that.

And Wraiths or 'Bolter Magnets' as i have come to call them can never be fielded in large enough numbers to be anything near effective. If they had two wounds, they would be worth the points and a valuable assault unit, but paying 190 odd points for a unit of three which are as easy to kill as 3 space marines...forget it

Bookwrak
01-10-2007, 17:01
Obviously the C'Tan unit in 40k represents a portion of a star god's power invested in a physical shell in order to create a battlefield avatar, not the incarnate god himself.
In order to even be able to meaningfully interact with corpeal species on a meaningful level, a C'tan has to confine itself with a necrodermis. Kinda like, great cosmic power, itty bitty living space, their power proportionately reduced. At least, until those scouts snipers over there blow a hole in the Necrodermis, at which point all that cosmic power comes gushing out, and goes looking for another necrodermis.

Sekhmet
01-10-2007, 17:10
Kinda like, great cosmic power, itty bitty living space, their power proportionately reduced.

Hahaha... Aladdin... I don't think anyone else would have gotten that reference.

Nightbringer isn't the single most powerful model in the game anymore... I'd argue Abaddon is. 11ty billion attacks at S8 reroll wounds with I > Nightbringer's I.

Wraithbored
01-10-2007, 17:13
All necron players start with them because they help add to army point totals, but after they build their forces up a bit the C'tan is seen as a point sink.

Sekhmet
01-10-2007, 17:16
All necron players start with them because they help add to army point totals, but after they build their forces up a bit the C'tan is seen as a point sink.

I've seen it the other way actually.

Most Necron players stay away from the C'tan as they see it as a point sink. After they build up their forces, they realize what they're missing and that certain C'tan can fill that hole in their capabilities.


Oh, and if no one reads the Tactica C'tan thread... the one thing you should take away is that the Deceiver > Nightbringer, regardless of the fact that the Deceiver is also 20% cheaper.

For example...


2) Because of above, they are easily avoided. 'Here mr star god, these scouts should hold you up for a turn..which is long enough for the rest of my army to ESCAPE YOU!'

Using that tactic against the Deceiver will backfire and give you the exact opposite result you wanted.

Finn
01-10-2007, 17:19
I'd just like to say the the C'tan are the biggest waste of points on the planet. They don't fit the Necron army. Sure the Nightbringer eats things alive when he gets to 12". But he's got to get there first. And the Deceiver...he's the one of the two that you actually might get some use out of. But he's still not worth his points.

Sekhmet
01-10-2007, 17:34
That might be your opinion Finn, but in my experience using the Deceiver, unless it's a static gunline army, I generally at least kill his point value of units, if not far more. Sometimes his redeploy is enough to justify the cost. Or the pinning ability. Or simply how it changes your opponent's game plan.

When there's a demon prince or two with wings heading your way and you stick a C'tan in their path, they suddenly rethink their plan of charging into the juicy underbelly of your necron army.

But I've covered all this already...

Finn
01-10-2007, 19:22
Sometimes his redeploy is enough to justify the cost. Or the pinning ability. Or simply how it changes your opponent's game plan.

When there's a demon prince or two with wings heading your way and you stick a C'tan in their path, they suddenly rethink their plan of charging into the juicy underbelly of your necron army.

Which is why he's sometimes worth it, though it's rare :P. I'd really rather use those 300 points elsewhere. 3 Tomb Spyders with the leftover of the 300 in support will make those demon princes think twice as well...

The pinning/morale ability is rather nice. Admittedly I prefer not to use them because I like the look of tons of deathless alien robots on the battlefield...

Sekhmet
01-10-2007, 20:41
Against basically every army except tau and IG, the Deceiver will be worth it.

Captain Micha
01-10-2007, 21:44
Really, I prefer the Nightbringer... for the same reason that some players take land raiders... can we say... fire magnet? It usually ties up alot more resources than it's point costs for me. Especially against people that are seeing them for the first time.

Conversely. they hear on the intarwebz that they suck and should be ignored and evaded. Which leads them into making mistakes elsewhere trying to avoid my 'too slow to be useful' hq. (I actually saw a guy lead half his remaining army into rapid fire range... )

Or they hear that they suck so they decide to send their hq to do some hq on hq action (only happened 2 times.. both sm players) I don't think I need to tell you how that went...

yes pariah are abit slow.. but they aren't as gimped as they first appear. after all their gun is assault 2... and it is a gauss blaster....

MALICIOUS LOGIC
01-10-2007, 22:12
I think a C'Tan fills the much needed roll of close combat support that Necrons effectively lack. Necrons (arguably) have no good close combat. They have great medium range firepower which is a strength that I capitalize on. The only way to counter melee (their weakness) is to teleport out of it. But certain armies make this nearly impossible. A CíTan can anchor them in melee and provide an effective counter measure.

I prefer the Deceiver over the Nightbringer. He has tactical abilities that augment Necron tactics. He simply works better for the Necrons.

A few points:
- The Deceiver generally makes up for points by use of his abilities.
- The Deceiverís abilities make him more effective than the Nightbringer (IMHO) in melee because he can pick and choose his fights.
- Both CíTan are fire magnets. The Deceiver is cheaper.
- Necrons generally move toward the center of the board. Which means that you canít ďavoidĒ a CíTan unless you avoid the rest of the Necron force.


~Logic

warmaster tz'arkan
01-10-2007, 22:44
I'm confused.. what are you saying?

You hate them, they're nightmares with "possible best stat line in the game", they're scary... but you always decimate people who use them?

I'm confused.

hes saying that others think they're good and scary, but he finds them easy to beat. i know him in real life. bloody good player. tactical but sometimes biased.

Nargus
02-10-2007, 10:37
I have to say I prefer Nightbringer, for one simple reason.

His statline is better. He is meatier in combat. His ability to remove enemies is greater..

So my reason is: My opponents are more scared of him, personally. So they will do one of two things: Panic, and try and kill him (With greater force than Deceiver I would argue) or they ignore him(out of sight, out of mind..), and he can freely maneuver to maximise on his few turns of fighting, causing far more devastation.

I will agree that from a strategic (and probably a tactical as well) point of view the Deceiver is the far, far better option (and cheaper to boot) but never underestimate psychological warfare in 40k.

Sekhmet
02-10-2007, 16:19
His statline is hardly better.. 1 better S (10 instead of 9... oooo), 1 more attack and 1 more WS vs the Deceiver's 1 better I (being able to hit before or simultaneously is sometimes better than an extra attack).

And the point of the Deceiver is that he's just barely worse in combat, yet he can maneuver circles around the Nightbringer. I once went from my deployment zone to half way into my opponent's deployment zone and back to my table edge in a single 6 turn game with the Deceiver. Yes... around 60" of movement.

Nargus
02-10-2007, 16:31
You are completely and utterly missing my point. Congratulations, I thought i'd shot that at the lowest common denominator.

I know you are arguing your corner, but please at least read what I write before jumping down my throat.

He's scarier. He creates more fear in my opponent than the Deceiver. Just because YOU know the real story, most people don't. He works better therefore, as a psychological tool to distract and overwhelm your opponent.

To use Nightbringer correctly, the Deceiver is not a lump of pewter, its YOU.

Sekhmet
02-10-2007, 17:22
I don't know about you, Nargus, but I play against people who know the game well, who tend to at least somewhat know every codex. I don't assume my opponent is dumb and doesn't know what is and is not a threat, I assume my opponent knows everything I do about my army.

Thus, my opponents show the same "fear" of the Deceiver as they "fear" the Nightbringer... if not more so. But their fear isn't an outright panic or ignoring it, it's something created through reason and experience. They see it as Necron players see a maxed out infiltrating speed prince (before the current chaos codex). It's not something to wet your pants over, but it's something to consider in the game as a big threat.

But sorry, I forgot that not everyone plays in tournaments.



To use Nightbringer correctly, the Deceiver is not a lump of pewter, its YOU.

What?

FigureFour
02-10-2007, 17:24
I know you are arguing your corner, but please at least read what I write before jumping down my throat.

Umm . . . You're the one who's jumping down someone's throat here.


He's scarier. He creates more fear in my opponent than the Deceiver. Just because YOU know the real story, most people don't. He works better therefore, as a psychological tool to distract and overwhelm your opponent.

The fact is, your "psychological warfare" tactic just isn't effective. If your opponent knows that The Nightbringer is scary but doesn't know that The Deciever is scary, he's a better psychological weapon. But it only works if your opponent is a bad player and doesn't know what he's doing.

And even if you get lucky, that's only going to work once before your opponent realises how you're using The Nightbringer and acts accordingly.

The_Outsider
02-10-2007, 17:46
Its a simple as this really, the NB is about 50 points too expensive or he needs some suitable abilities to justify his massive cost.

Sure he will win a 1v1 duel with anything else in the game but who is stupid enough to send Abaddon vs the only thing in the Necron army that will eat him?

Dexeiver however is fantastic, worthy of his cost simply because he really does bugger up well laid plans as a hobby and he is no slouch in CC to boot.

Cry of the Wind
02-10-2007, 18:34
Obviously the C'Tan unit in 40k represents a portion of a star god's power invested in a physical shell in order to create a battlefield avatar, not the incarnate god himself.

Even so the fact that this character is one of the 'gods' of the 41st millennium makes it seem a little out of place to have them fighting in the average 40k scale battle. They seem more the kind of character that would be in a special scenario with a purpose behind it rather than simply being a regular codex item. It just seems odd to have a character that is responsible for major 40k plot lines to be actually playable in game. It would be like using an Old One or one of the Eldar gods (and not an Avatar, those are only fragments of a god). I don't recall reading that the C'tan only put a portion of their power into the necrodermis either, and though restricted they still seem to have godlike powers in the fluff. But that is just one of those things I disagree with when it comes to Necron background and it's application on the tabletop.

Like Sekhmet, the people I play against know the game and its armies well. As such I cannot use a character or unit to psych them out. However, the abilities of the Deceiver make it a much more viable unit compared to a simple walking lascannon and melee unit. Its ability to leave combats and get the extra movement out of them is what makes it really shine in my eyes. It's an ability that can be easily used to exploit any mistake in enemy movement or just gain a boost when you need to get him somewhere. That said I'd still almost never use one.

Imperialis_Dominatus
02-10-2007, 22:11
He's scarier. He creates more fear in my opponent than the Deceiver. Just because YOU know the real story, most people don't. He works better therefore, as a psychological tool to distract and overwhelm your opponent.

Here's your argument. This is fine. Then there's everything else.


You are completely and utterly missing my point. Congratulations, I thought i'd shot that at the lowest common denominator. [QUOTE=Nargus;1968445]

[QUOTE=Nargus;1968445]To use Nightbringer correctly, the Deceiver is not a lump of pewter, its YOU.

....


I know you are arguing your corner, but please at least read what I write before jumping down my throat.

Right...:eyebrows:

azimaith
03-10-2007, 02:49
The C'tan are designed to be a big scary monster that draws enemy fire and prevents enemy assaults. Some people prefer getting assaulted and then teleporting out. Since I don't use veils or monoliths in my army the C'tan fits in pretty well.

In either case players often either spray so much fire at them to kill it that they end up ignoring alot of the army's key mobile elements (be it destroyers or wraiths for my army) and that causes them to lose.

In other cases they find that they can't assault your forces with their big scary beasts because the C'tan is standing behind him like a 260 pound big brother in a street fight.

A daemon prince that would normally have walked all over a squad of warriors or immortals generally starts sweating when that same squad is within 12" of a C'tan because they know the moment they commit to a charge their precious unit is doomed.

I have played enough of tyranids and orks to realize *every* unit in your army can be a sacrificial unit and have charged all sorts of baddies like C'tan with hive tyrants, warbosses, swarms of standard boyz or gaunts and anything else.

For other armies people love each one of their precious figures and don't like throwing them into the meat grinder even if it helps them win.

killa kan kaus
03-10-2007, 03:32
they are so slow i do not have much trouble when facing them

Heromaniac
03-10-2007, 03:46
I dont usually use them in small game as they take up the place of 16 to 20 necron warriors(got to think of phasing out) but in larger games(1750+) you can sometime see one lurking about in my army list and I always take the Deceiver. Sure the NB is a beast but that's it. It can't do anything else than CC but moves 6". The Deceiver cost 60pts less has 9 strength instead of 10:wtf: but still overkill anything and is as unstoppable. Plus it can redploy your entire army and give morale check to even fearless troop at range:wtf:.

But still the perfect weapon against them is SNIPER:cheese:. 2+ to hit, 4+ to wound. no matter of toughness 8 and only 4+ invunerable save:cries:

azimaith
03-10-2007, 07:20
they are so slow i do not have much trouble when facing them

C'tan are not assault units, they are counter assault units. The point isn't to wail go screaming forward and wail on someone, you can shoot them. Its to prevent someone else from screaming forward and wailing on you.

Nargus
03-10-2007, 10:19
Umm . . . You're the one who's jumping down someone's throat here..
I overeacted a little, I will agree, but if my post had been read properly, you would have seen that i agreed with Sekhmet. Thats what got my hackles up.

I'm sorry if I offended anyone (particularly Sekhmet), but i do find it frustrating when people don't seem to realise what you are saying.



The fact is, your "psychological warfare" tactic just isn't effective. If your opponent knows that The Nightbringer is scary but doesn't know that The Deciever is scary, he's a better psychological weapon. But it only works if your opponent is a bad player and doesn't know what he's doing.

And even if you get lucky, that's only going to work once before your opponent realises how you're using The Nightbringer and acts accordingly.

Not true. It does work, but you have to make it work. Any good player could easily avoid the tactic (even tournament ones) but you need to sow seeds of doubt in their mind. You can do this with the Deciever, naturally, but it is more effective with the Nightbringer. That (and only that) is all I am saying.

FigureFour
03-10-2007, 14:18
Even so the fact that this character is one of the 'gods' of the 41st millennium makes it seem a little out of place to have them fighting in the average 40k scale battle. . . It would be like using an Old One or one of the Eldar gods (and not an Avatar, those are only fragments of a god). I don't recall reading that the C'tan only put a portion of their power into the necrodermis either, and though restricted they still seem to have godlike powers in the fluff.

If I'm right (and I admit I made that stuff up because it makes sense . . . The Nightbringer unit can't do anything that the fluff says he can) then it's EXACTLY the same thing as an Eldar Avatar.


Not true. It does work, but you have to make it work. Any good player could easily avoid the tactic (even tournament ones) but you need to sow seeds of doubt in their mind. You can do this with the Deciever, naturally, but it is more effective with the Nightbringer. That (and only that) is all I am saying.

And all I'm saying is that an intelligent player won't fall for it so it's better to take a unit that's effective at something other then being scary.

Sekhmet
03-10-2007, 14:57
by the way, are they boy or girl?

neither... implying a sex means they reproduce. As far as we know, they were born spontaneously in stars...

Halfpast_Yellow
03-10-2007, 16:41
As usual, the commentary in this thread shows that C'tan are probably one of the most misunderstood units in the game.

Reading the Tactica C'tan in Sekhmet's sig should be compulsory reading before replying.

Cry of the Wind
03-10-2007, 16:56
I get what you're saying FigureFour, you might be right for all I know (I haven't read all the fluff out there). But I still stand by the fact that such a major player in the background of the entire 40k universe shouldn't be playable in the game. Perhaps it's something for the House Retcons thread...

I can see the Deceiver being used to mess a tournament player (myself included) but not through any lack of knowledge of its abilities or weaknesses. It has the potential to do things that are not normally possible and that potential may be enough to throw off someoneís game if they start to over think the situation. I still think it will more come down to your proper use of the Deceiver rather than any possible misstep by your opponent (i.e. you shouldn't use it because you expect it to mess up your opponent, but rather because you know what it can do and have a plan for it).

Sekhmet
03-10-2007, 17:11
I get what you're saying FigureFour, you might be right for all I know (I haven't read all the fluff out there). But I still stand by the fact that such a major player in the background of the entire 40k universe shouldn't be playable in the game. Perhaps it's something for the House Retcons thread...


I agree... but the same with all special characters in 40k. The way the game is moving, it's like each 40k battle is in its own universe representing a special, heroic battle or skirmish.

Imperialis_Dominatus
03-10-2007, 20:23
I agree... but the same with all special characters in 40k. The way the game is moving, it's like each 40k battle is in its own universe representing a special, heroic battle or skirmish.

This is why I refuse to use special characters. Plus my mediocre painting can't tarnish their models. Not to mention fluff. Fluffy fluff fluff fluff.

hellbender1380
03-10-2007, 20:36
C'tan taste like chicken, really tough, darn near impossible to kill and can be a real thorn in the side. But once you get past all that, nice and chewy.

darkprincewilson
03-10-2007, 20:38
When I played Necrons, I did use Nightbringer. Unfortunately, his slow movement tended to reduce him to a moveable Lascannon. My opponents would avoid the C'Tan and go for a phase out.

I would not field a C'Tan if I started playing Necrons again.

TYRANOODLE
03-10-2007, 20:39
I tink they should have more than a 4+ invul save. I would go as far to say that they should have a 2+ invul save (but that would seriously make it too powerful without an extensive points increase.

azimaith
03-10-2007, 22:18
The point, as said over and over again, Dark prince, is to function as a very threatening counter assault unit, not a unit that runs around demolishing armies. The C'tan is the unit you use to make that charging daemon prince wet himself so he can't wipe the floor with your normal units.

If they avoid the C'tan then you can use that to control them.

If they're extensive shooting you can use the C'tans power to mess with them (a big reason why I like the deciever much more than the nightbringer).

Overall they fit very well into the tournament setting against many armies.

jobi
03-10-2007, 23:51
Yeh they are slow and they should be able to use the monolith. The 0-1 is taken off in apocalypse so yeh thats great with a maximum of 4 C'tan on the field. AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!! !!!!!


That doesn't make sense. There are only 2 of them that are alive. 2 are dormant and the rest the Nightbringer ate.

HiveTrygon
04-10-2007, 00:51
I've got a question as I own both but never use them. :p Doesn't the nightbringer have an attack wich is the same as a las-cannon? Does that include the range, cause that is not to shabby to fire while on the move. He is a monstrous creature so could fire a weapon and move.

I must admitt though that out of the 2 the deciever was the only one I ever thought about trying. :o

azimaith
04-10-2007, 00:52
The nightbringers lightning arc is a half range lascannon. If you want a move and fire lascannon go get a heavy destroyer, at least thats what I think.

Imperialis_Dominatus
04-10-2007, 01:05
I tink they should have more than a 4+ invul save. I would go as far to say that they should have a 2+ invul save (but that would seriously make it too powerful without an extensive points increase.

Don't you think a model such as the Nightbringer which can literally take pretty much anything out in a standard 40k game is powerful enough? One of the few feasible ways to kill the damned things is via Sniper Rifle. This seems like a ploy to render that option less useful.

I've never heard of anything having better than a 4+ Inv save. Except bikers turboboosting, but that's it.

If C'tan get a better Inv save I'm all for the Chaos gods materializing on the tabletop, the Avatar being rebuilt to Khaine's full form, and the Emperor and the Primarchs being playable. For all this IG should be able to use about five Baneblades a game.

Sekhmet
04-10-2007, 01:14
I've never heard of anything having better than a 4+ Inv save. Except bikers turboboosting, but that's it.


Wraith and Eldrad have 3+ invuls.

I don't want C'tan to get a 3+ invul (although that would make sense since Wraith aren't any more or less.. phasy... than C'tan), I think a 4+ invul and 2+ regular save would be nice. It would mean sniper rifles wouldn't be so silly effective against C'tan. And neither would mass pulse rifle fire. Stuff intended to hurt c'tan, like rail guns and lascannons, would be just as effective.

darrelltmcd
04-10-2007, 01:37
but paying 190 odd points for a unit of three which are as easy to kill as 3 space marines...forget it

3 wraiths is only 123 pts 41 pts each

Imperialis_Dominatus
04-10-2007, 05:15
Wraith and Eldrad have 3+ invuls.

I don't want C'tan to get a 3+ invul (although that would make sense since Wraith aren't any more or less.. phasy... than C'tan), I think a 4+ invul and 2+ regular save would be nice. It would mean sniper rifles wouldn't be so silly effective against C'tan. And neither would mass pulse rifle fire. Stuff intended to hurt c'tan, like rail guns and lascannons, would be just as effective.

****... forgot about those space elves...

Yes, a 3+ Inv save is overkill. In fact, I just remembered another reason I dislike Eldar... but I'm a bigot human, let's not go there.

Personally, I think a 4+ Inv save is fine, but then again I don't play Tau, and my IG never exactly loaded up on Lascannons... sure, had some, but if I really wanted to take out a C'tan, it'd be the work of a game, probably, with all the other stuff they have. Besides, there'd be no point with all the crunchy Necrons to point my guns at.

Nightbringer is generally a distraction. Deciever is a strategically advantageous distraction. That's how I see it anyway.

azimaith
04-10-2007, 05:31
A c'tan with a 3+ invulnerable would be ungodly tough in their current state. I'd personally prefer to see C'tan removed from game play entirely. There is no place for incarnate gods on the battlefield like the C'tan.

I'd prefer to see them replaced with "Eidelons" basically living metal statues infused with a fraction of a C'tans power.

My first idea for their stat line would be no armor save whatsoever, T10, and auto-wound/wound on a fixed number weapons wounding on a 6 instead.

But thats just me.

havoc626
04-10-2007, 05:48
I used Nightbringer once against Eldar and I'm never using a C'tan again. He got killed in one round of shooting and didnt even shoot at anything, let alone kill anything. I am never using one again unless I am up against a short range/ Close-combat enemy. I have considered using Deciever, but latly I've been battling against guard that are set up within 12'' of their standard bearer, so even if they do fail the test, they get a re-roll.

Tulun
04-10-2007, 05:57
It is kind of amusing that Ratlings > C'tan (And Wraithlords ;))...

I think they are a decent unit, but their application is difficult in a simple army. It's hard to use one effectively, especially if you're stuck in the mindset of the rest of the Necron army.

Razor Devil
04-10-2007, 07:15
Like someone suggested read the "C'tan Tactica". I voted yes because although I haven't got one I definantly want one, most probably the Deceiver. I'll just use a Lord and a C'tan, when I get my hands on one.

vlorlich
04-10-2007, 13:45
I have used both in quite a few games. Nightbringer really just takes a quarter or location for me and holds it. His mere presence tends to keep people at bay. Though I can recall him having a fun run through an armored company one day. The guy quit after 3 turns of that. The Deceiver is my fav though because of his abilities. I love placing a Monolith in a position where I know... the opponent will place a heavy or two with range (ie Hammerhead or Pred) will get good shots... then only to move it with the Grand Illusion and if I am lucky... I move some destroyers over nearby so they can roll over and pop the Heavy Choices. Ya... good times. :)

We played a 5.5k game recently and let me tell you. The Deceiver can be absolutely brutal with the Grand Illusion. Not to mention that there is simply more stuff to bounce to and from to help him cross the field.

Razor Devil
05-10-2007, 02:13
The Nightbringer is basically a Dreadnought (AV12/T8 compared to S6-10) except that a Nightbringer has saves and a Dreadnought has Glancing/Penetration rolls. Well in terms of Toughness a Deceiver is also a Dreadnought.

But then again they have 5/4 attacks and have very unique powers.

-IronWarrior-
05-10-2007, 02:28
I don't see why everyones so excited about Apoc. Keeping in mind I love GW its just a really big ploy for model sales. I can field a 3000 point army tomorrow against a friend and have just as much fun.

As far as the C'tan tho they are very good in small games. With the new Chaos Codex I intend to just keeping moving the model away with the Slaanesh Sorcerer Psychic Power... however if they do get to me its a lot of pain.

The most annoyingly effective Neccron armies i've faced just massed Warriors, Immortals and 2 lords with Rez Orbs. Armor doesn't stand up at all against the regular weaponry and their shots can mow down any infantry unit in this game with how strong they are.

If your doing 2000 points or close to it... toss in the Monolith to pull your units away from the overly annoying CC units that manage to actually make it to your army.

It's a solid tactic considering the phase out rule and the fact that they just KEEP GETTING BACK UP with the Rez Orbs around.

We call Neccron's the "I'm a n00b that still wins a lot" army. They really don't require much strategy but moving forward and firing at the first thing in range.

Sekhmet
05-10-2007, 03:01
We call Neccron's the "I'm a n00b that still wins a lot" army. They really don't require much strategy but moving forward and firing at the first thing in range.


Thats nice to hear from someone with a forum name "-IronWarrior-".

In a more serious note... that's like saying because Marines are effective in 6man las/plas squads, that's the only way you'll see a Marine army built. It's wrong.

Finn
05-10-2007, 06:10
I have to somewhat agree. Crons are a very forgiving army. And besides, in the spirit of things - isn't that what Necrons are supposed to do? Move forward and shoot whatever gets in range first? Silly robots...

Tulun
05-10-2007, 07:28
I wouldn't go as far as saying they are a 'noob' army, they are just more forgiving because of WBB (and the ability to circumvent most it's negatives through a piece of wargear).

Each model also has a chance of doing something against everything in the game with the Gauss rule. That does really help them out. They do have disadvantages, though, and I'll be curious to see what they would change with an update. I hope WBB becomes FNP (even if slightly modified to fit with the orb, etc). It'd be nice to know if the model has died >.>

Of course, that's off topic... C'tan are simply less forgiving, since they can't get back up when they die, and don't have something like Living Metal to circumvent guns :) Just a beefy toughness (which can work, Wraithlords sure love it).

-IronWarrior-
05-10-2007, 09:04
What I was getting at Sekhmet is that they require no upgrade to bring down any unit in the game. Vehicle and Infantry alike. The always glance on a 6 is what gives them their n00bish style of play. Their weapon strengths also rock the playground.

At least Marines "require" upgrades to be able to handle different situations... and for that matter have a selection of different weapons to field. I honestly wouldn't say Marines require a TON of thought as far as force organization goes... but substantially more than Neccrons.

Don't get me wrong Neccrons are a VERY good army... they just don't require much thought to play. Their tactics remain the same every single game they play regardless of the opponent or army they face. If you honestly think they require a strategy adjustment each game... you really haven't played this game too long with them Sekhmet.

Finn does a good point in that they are honestly played as the lore intended them to be. Slumbering robots that just shamble across the board and lay down a hail of fire power with weapons that not even the Imperium has been able to understand yet.

FigureFour
05-10-2007, 12:30
I'd prefer to see them replaced with "Eidelons" basically living metal statues infused with a fraction of a C'tans power.

I'm pretty sure that's what they are allready.


Don't get me wrong Neccrons are a VERY good army... they just don't require much thought to play. Their tactics remain the same every single game they play regardless of the opponent or army they face. If you honestly think they require a strategy adjustment each game... you really haven't played this game too long with them Sekhmet.

Ummm . . . you realise you have no idea what you're talking about right?

Captain Micha
05-10-2007, 12:48
What I was getting at Sekhmet is that they require no upgrade to bring down any unit in the game. Vehicle and Infantry alike. The always glance on a 6 is what gives them their n00bish style of play. Their weapon strengths also rock the playground.

At least Marines "require" upgrades to be able to handle different situations... and for that matter have a selection of different weapons to field. I honestly wouldn't say Marines require a TON of thought as far as force organization goes... but substantially more than Neccrons.

Don't get me wrong Neccrons are a VERY good army... they just don't require much thought to play. Their tactics remain the same every single game they play regardless of the opponent or army they face. If you honestly think they require a strategy adjustment each game... you really haven't played this game too long with them Sekhmet.

Finn does a good point in that they are honestly played as the lore intended them to be. Slumbering robots that just shamble across the board and lay down a hail of fire power with weapons that not even the Imperium has been able to understand yet.


Spoken like a true noob that doesn't understand how they operate in the least. To be effective with Necrons is like playing Eldar (actually more so) each unit has strengths and weaknesses.

Saying that they do not require much thought to use is a vast insult to all of us cron players out there. No, a 44 warrior (in a 1k game) -can- be effective IF the dice gods love you. And that is a very large if. I've never seen my gauss do diddly aside from wound a T8 wraithlord.

Necrons require alot more thought than you give them credit for. To have a really effective list, like most well made armies you do have to adjust it from time to time to suit your play style. It's not as simple as immortal spam, and warriors +mono.. that list has it's uses but it's not nearly the be all end all.

My personal list runs, wraith or destroyers, immortals or flayeds, a mono from time to time. All of which save perhaps the immortals are finesse tactical units that require a good deal of thought to use however when implemented properly make for a much stronger game and list than this supposed noob friendly army is typically fielded with.

Believe me, I'd rather have a lascannon any day than gauss. Or heavy bolters... or anything that marines get. Marines don't require thought. You just take some speeders, a couple devastators maybe a predator, 6 man las plas and you have a rock hard list that everyone will have a hard time beating. Yes... so much thought there. (which this list is about 100 times better than -any - necron list over all)

And yes, before you say it, I beat that list regularly with my crons, which often lose to any non conventional army (ie non intarwebz lists) the necrons have this amazing ability to be awesome against cheese lists (except invincible falcon eldar) while doing so so against the non cheese armies.

Sekhmet
05-10-2007, 16:30
the necrons have this amazing ability to be awesome against cheese lists (except invincible falcon eldar) while doing so so against the non cheese armies.

I'm glad someone noticed that too :D



What I was getting at Sekhmet is that they require no upgrade to bring down any unit in the game. Vehicle and Infantry alike. The always glance on a 6 is what gives them their n00bish style of play. Their weapon strengths also rock the playground.

As others have said, I'd take a 100 pt 5 man squad with a lascannon and plasma gun any day over a 180 pt 10 model squad without any special or heavy weapons whatsoever. Even if they can glance vehicles on a 6, it's nothing compared to the range and hitting power of a lascannon. Oh, and said 5 man squad can take a transport without eating up 200+ pts and a heavy support slot. Basically, Necrons require no upgrade to hurt any unit in the game, but they do it so much worse than pretty much any other army in the game that it's silly to base your army entirely off of the gauss rule.



Don't get me wrong Neccrons are a VERY good army... they just don't require much thought to play. Their tactics remain the same every single game they play regardless of the opponent or army they face. If you honestly think they require a strategy adjustment each game... you really haven't played this game too long with them Sekhmet.

If you think Necrons armies are all Rez Orbs + Warrior spam with the occasional monolith thrown in, I'd venture to say "you really haven't played this game too long". I've been playing Necrons probably longer than most people on this board have been playing 40k. That would be 9 and 1/2 years.



Finn does a good point in that they are honestly played as the lore intended them to be. Slumbering robots that just shamble across the board and lay down a hail of fire power with weapons that not even the Imperium has been able to understand yet.

Have you read Necron lore? Any of it? I can't think of a single one where Necron Warriors simply shamble across a battlefield. What they tend to do is teleport in right next to you, or crawl out of the ground, drop a monolith ontop of you, or something that would use the "deep strike" rules... and kill you before you can bring your heavy weapons to bear. Then they teleport out when they're finished. Necrons in the game do not play like Necrons in the fluff, not by far.

Imperialis_Dominatus
05-10-2007, 17:10
Ummm . . . you realise you have no idea what you're talking about right?

And you realize that there are more civil ways to say that, I'm sure. Despite his rather stereotypical view of the Necron army, he does show some critical thought and observation in his opinion, which implies "some idea," even if that idea is misconstrued.

Did you stop to consider that the Necron players in his area might play this way?

Calling him an idiot won't help things. Try what Sekhmet is doing and provide examples of how a Necron army requires a fair bit of strategy to use, and undermine his arguments with your counters. Don't just insult him.

Part of me sympathizes with your opinion, specifically because he uses the spelling and term 'n00b,' which bothers the hell out of me, but your reaction bugs me just as much.

Razor Devil
06-10-2007, 11:55
Firstly, this is a very off-topic debate.

Secondly, I'd like to contribute to this off-topic debate. :p

Necrons need tactics. Every army needs tactics. You never just have an army shambling across the field doing nothing and getting shot. You teleport, you move, you shoot in soft spots.
A good example of this is destroyers. You're getting no where if you start eliminating basic infantry first before eliminating high strength firepower that can kill your monolith. Oh stuff this. Why don't you read this?:
http://warseer.com/forums/40k-army-lists/106101-1750-necron-tournament-list.html
Then you'll see real tactics.

Captain Micha
06-10-2007, 12:10
but people don't wanna see that... That'd require thinking. Which is anatheme to the intarwebz 010101010101 ftw!

My only regret as a Necron player, is that there are not more of us here on Warseer, or out there period...

Halfpast_Yellow
06-10-2007, 12:49
And you realize that there are more civil ways to say that, I'm sure.



But honestly...he had no idea what he was talking about. Fact is fact. I'm happy that FigureFour pointed that out to him in a succinct way, straight to the point.

Just a bystander on the other side of the coin, to balance it out..

-IronWarrior-
07-10-2007, 06:27
I'm glad someone noticed that too :D


As others have said, I'd take a 100 pt 5 man squad with a lascannon and plasma gun any day over a 180 pt 10 model squad without any special or heavy weapons whatsoever. Even if they can glance vehicles on a 6, it's nothing compared to the range and hitting power of a lascannon. Oh, and said 5 man squad can take a transport without eating up 200+ pts and a heavy support slot. Basically, Necrons require no upgrade to hurt any unit in the game, but they do it so much worse than pretty much any other army in the game that it's silly to base your army entirely off of the gauss rule.


If you think Necrons armies are all Rez Orbs + Warrior spam with the occasional monolith thrown in, I'd venture to say "you really haven't played this game too long". I've been playing Necrons probably longer than most people on this board have been playing 40k. That would be 9 and 1/2 years.


Have you read Necron lore? Any of it? I can't think of a single one where Necron Warriors simply shamble across a battlefield. What they tend to do is teleport in right next to you, or crawl out of the ground, drop a monolith ontop of you, or something that would use the "deep strike" rules... and kill you before you can bring your heavy weapons to bear. Then they teleport out when they're finished. Necrons in the game do not play like Necrons in the fluff, not by far.

As far as small marine units with heavy weapons go that is getting rapidly phased out. The new Chaos Marine codex doesn't allow that all unless you field 10 marines to get the option of a Heavy Weapon.

If you truely believe that a mass warrior, immortal, rez-orb, mono setup wont take down every list in the game please give me an army list example that will make it incredibly difficult for Neccrons to win.

I didn't intend at all to flame Neccron players because they are a really fun army to play... i'm just saying theyre like one huge swiss army knife on the battle field. I've won two RT's and ranked in top 10 at a GT. Everytime I see a Neccron force show up with that setup I know its going to be a long game for me.

For that matter look at the listed national GT and RT listings. Neccrons are in the top 5 more than once constantly. Almost every army list they field is a mirror to that setup or damn close. Most people will deviate for a better army score.

It's such a solid setup.

Razor Devil
07-10-2007, 06:37
Hmmm. Let me see...Falcons, Wraithguard and a Jetbike Seer council? Or you can alternatively replace the Falcons with Fireprisms. Actually, I probably would, if it's only against Immortals, Warriors and Monoliths I'd definantly take Fireprisms. Wraithguard get mashed from other stuff but against footsloggers, they'll eventually corner the Immortals and unleash hell.

EDIT: Plus it's not only the army list. Does anyone know about tactics? They play are very very big part in the game. Just read Sephiroth87's guide to Warhammer 40k. There's heaps of stuff. A power army list can be beaten if using the right tactics.

-IronWarrior-
07-10-2007, 09:15
I understand tactics are a big part and I never said that the army was unbeatable. I've beaten them myself regularly.

It's just the army is a very simple design for how incredibly powerful it is.

You can field a LOT of Neccron's in your regular 1,750 point tournament list.

With the Rez orbs placed properly I dont see armor stopping them. They're going to get back up and they're going to eventually get a solid volley on the tanks.