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WarpWhisperer
01-10-2007, 11:28
Is it me, or does the new WD's massive Apoc battle highlight exactly how feeble the new CSM daemons are?

I know that during the game there were lots of templates fired at the whole group, plus Apoc rules are not going to show a true balancing of their abilities (or lack of them), but for 220 lesser (how apt!) daemons to come out of the warp and then do seemingly nothing against what appears to be a small number of ultramarines just seems to highlight how rubbish they are.

Does anyone agree/disagree?

RampagingRavener
01-10-2007, 11:42
Disagree.

I've not got the new WD yet, but I strongly disagree that the Lesser Daemons are rubbish. Yes, they look rubbish if you compare them to what they were in the last codex. But if we're comparing things to older versions of their rules, a Carnifex looks rubbish if you compare it to the 10-wound Regenerating behemoth of 2nd edition.

Lesser Daemons have their uses. They're a support/tar unit, used to tie down units, overwhelm flanks in isolation, or add a barrel-load of st4 attacks in close combat for not a lot of points. 130 points for 30 st4 attacks on the charge? Seems really quite a good deal to me, and it's a rare Chaos list I take that doesn't have at least 10 Daemons.

destroyerlord
01-10-2007, 11:52
They seem ok to me. Compare to marine regulars and you get (effectively) deep strike, fearless and an invulnerable save for the loss of a bolter, power armour and for 2 points less. Not the elite combat monsters the cult daemons were but still a viable troop choice.

Stella Cadente
01-10-2007, 12:25
I also disagree, if used correctly they can be extremely effective, in that battle-report they weren't really used that effectively, and being shot by multiple ordnance weapons and charged by all the company masters and calgar is gonna make ANYTHING die, no matter the numbers

Bunnahabhain
01-10-2007, 12:26
Try using them against something less powerful than a marine.

Personally, I'm more afraid of them now. They're not as powerful as they once were, but they're cheaper, so can more easily be fielded, and in quite large numbers.. They're plenty good enough to carve their way through my Guardsmen, and they can turn up far too close to my lines...

They'll also be ideal for whittling down Ork hordes. Lots of cheap, S4 attacks. So what if they're not power weapons if your targets have poor armour to start with?

Voodoo Boyz
01-10-2007, 12:28
Nope, you're right, they're pretty much rubbish and there is near zero reason to take them in any kind of a competitive chaos force.

Take them if you want to use the pretty models or if you like their idea fluff wise, but not because of how well they'll perform in game.

The Dark One
01-10-2007, 12:28
i disagree also. i have found them very useful.
as already mentioned they were doing to die vs lots of templates and the chapter masters and calga

IJW
01-10-2007, 12:54
I'm going to be picky here, but where are these 'generic' daemons you speak of? The codex never uses that description... ;)

Supremearchmarshal
01-10-2007, 13:13
No, they aren't completely rubbish, but their problem is that anything they can do ordinary CSM can do better. The CSM cost only two points more, but have far more options, power armour, can shoot, grenades, icon...
Lack of a power fist also really hurts them.

bertcom1
01-10-2007, 13:16
They don't scatter, or lose models for failing morale checks anymore, so they are more reliable. They are also cheaper.

But they are less capable.

Meh, It evens out.

ehlijen
01-10-2007, 13:26
Supremearchmarshal:
There is one thing they can do better: appear where you want them (and you have an icon). When multiple icons appraoch the enemy line and deamons are waiting to pop in, that can put a lot of pressure on the opponent to counter something that he doesn't even know where they'll come from yet.

Not everything is a marine, and even against marines, you're somewhat likely to make your points back with them. Try them on guard or tau for a good time.

gorgon
01-10-2007, 13:51
Supremearchmarshal:
There is one thing they can do better: appear where you want them (and you have an icon). When multiple icons appraoch the enemy line and deamons are waiting to pop in, that can put a lot of pressure on the opponent to counter something that he doesn't even know where they'll come from yet.

But you don't know when they'll come in either. They might become available too early or too late. Some smart application of firepower and torrent of fire checks can also eliminate icons.

And I think we have to draw a distinction here. Do I think they'll be rubbish in every game? Of course not. There'll be games that they perform well. But do I think their overall tabletop performance will warrant 13 pts a model? No.

Supremearchmarshal
01-10-2007, 14:17
@ehlijen: I agree with gorgon. The daemons may arrive where you need them, but you don't know when, and also CSM can redeploy quickly using the very cheap Rhino. This is my main reason for disliking the new Chaos codex - too many units have a very similar unit that's simply better 9 times out of 10 (considering the points cost).

vampires are cool!
01-10-2007, 14:18
They're... ok. I've yet to use them - daemons have been benched in favour of termies at the present time. The old Daemons previously played the part of super elite shock troops and infantry destroyers. Now they have been given the less glorious tasks of supporting unit and distraction team.
They arnt brill, but they shure as hell aint crap. A more tacticaly minded player can have all sorts of fun with them, but their also usful to the more bloodthirsty of us.

Askari
01-10-2007, 14:19
Indeed, I don't intend to use them because Chaos Marines do most things better for a tiny price hike.

I get my 2 S4 attacks with better endurance with Chaos Marines, my Marines will always show up, heck they start on the table.

And then, as a tar pit people say. At 2pts cheaper than a Marine, they are not a tarpit. See why Horrors sucked in the last codex.

Democratus
01-10-2007, 14:57
Daemons are good for fluffy games and campaigns, but are not very good for competitive play. For a mere 2 points more you get double the durablilty (3+ sv), pistols, bolters, frag & krak grenades (daemons suck when charging into cover) and the option to add even more flexible equipment. The CSM is superior to a daemon and costs so little more that it is simply better to buy another squad of troops.

Icon elimination is also far too easy in a game with Mindwar, Vindicare Assassins, ToF, Gift of Chaos, and half a dozen other things which can kill an individual model.

Penitent
01-10-2007, 16:00
Supremearchmarshal:
There is one thing they can do better: appear where you want them (and you have an icon). When multiple icons appraoch the enemy line and deamons are waiting to pop in, that can put a lot of pressure on the opponent to counter something that he doesn't even know where they'll come from yet.

Not everything is a marine, and even against marines, you're somewhat likely to make your points back with them. Try them on guard or tau for a good time.

I think people aren't giving enough credence to this fact: it can be a HUGE strategic advantage to have invisible reinforcements, even ones that aren't 100% reliable for showing up when you need them.

I'm not saying the lesser daemons are perfect, but I certainly intend to use a unit for that surprise element.

pookie
01-10-2007, 16:21
i would think they would be a lot better if they hadnt had Calgar and several other SM Captains wading into them alongside 10/15 termies.

The_Warsmith
01-10-2007, 16:25
it was just the apocalypse setting really, in 'normal' games their nice cheap troops that can help support a unit that im not afraid to sacrifice, in apocalypse thier gunna be killed in droves like common guardsmen and gaunts

skott4991
01-10-2007, 16:31
They can assult the turn they come into play, have 3 sr, ws, i 4 attacks on the charge and a inv save, there good but there not good enough to stand up to calgar, his honour guard and the masters of chaper (i think this has altready been mentioned).

So, yeah, i disagree.

Grazzy
01-10-2007, 16:33
it was just the apocalypse setting really, in 'normal' games their nice cheap troops that can help support a unit that im not afraid to sacrifice, in apocalypse thier gunna be killed in droves like common guardsmen and gaunts

Very true. While hardcore tournament anti-marine cookie cutter lists wont use them they are good in friendly play against a range of opponents. In apocalypse, things like baneblades, special characters and hardcore super units will rule.

ChaosMaster
01-10-2007, 16:34
Daemons are still terrific, although without rending or power weapons like before they must be used more carefully as they are no longer going to take out Terminator squads all on their own unless they are used in larger numbers. They've always been quite vulnerable when hit with quality assault troops or heavy fire because they only have a 33.3% chance of making their saving throw. If they have to make a lot of saves, they will always go away quickly.

Polonius
01-10-2007, 16:39
I'm not sold that Lesser Daemons (Called generic because there used to be specific flavors) are useless. I'm also not sold on them being good.

Here's the problem: the Chaos codex has a problem I haven't seen in years, namely that there are simply better and more interesting options in HQ, elite, fast and Heavy than in troops. IMO, the goal of any army list will be to maximize the amount of good stuff, while minimizing the amount of troops. Rather than comparing Daemons to CSMs, compare them to terminators. Termies are twice as expensive, but arguably twice as durable, have power weapons, can shoot, can take combi weapons to make them effective in shooting against tanks/TMCS/Meqs, can take a heavy flamer, and can take an icon.

Compare them to Raptors, where for a 50% increase, you get jump packs, a 3+ save, two specials, a fist, and access to an icon.

As a unit that is not notably better than termies, raptors, or oblits, and does not count as the required two troops... the competition seems too fierce for the little buggers. While cunning players will always find a use for relatively cheap fearless units, they're not a top shelf unit in this codex.

Durath
01-10-2007, 17:34
You forgot to mention that included with the legion of 220 Lesser Daemons there were 4 Greater Daemons as well. NONE of it survived from what I could tell.

I'm on the fence about Daemons to be honest. Yes they are cheap. Yes they are alot less dangerous to summon in now. Yes they have decent stats.

But what they lack now:
No AP, or abilites that ignore saves.
No special abilities (they don't even have Marks anymore).
A limited 5+ inv. Save which makes them shooting fodder (some of the daemons were tougher, had better armor).

All they are, for all intents, is a CC filler. A somewhat expensive way (almost as much as a normal SM) to tie up opponents troops, who will undoubtedly have a character model or squad leader who will butcher them hopelessly.

I'm going to run some tests with them to see if they are worth it. But for now, the jury is still out.

DhaosAndy
01-10-2007, 18:18
As has been said, competatively there are just better choices, background wise I've got over a hundred lesser daemons, they are :

Bloodletters - lesser daemons of Khorne
Daemonettes - lesser daemons of Slaanesh
Horrors - lesser daemons of Tzeentch
Plague Bearers - lesser daemons of Nurgle

That is what they are, I damn well will not use them as counts as anything. :mad:

Was it really too much just to give them +1S, +1I, 2xS4/bs3 shots, +1T? :wtf:

Supremearchmarshal
01-10-2007, 18:35
Was it really too much just to give them +1S, +1I, 2xS4/bs3 shots, +1T?

The only logical reason I can think of is that they've deliberately made them flavourless to force people to collect an all-Daemon army.

I'd like not to believe this, but everything points to the contrary. Four lines of text wouldn't have destroyed the codex's balance. Also, now that there are no Daemonic Beasts or Nurglings, the Daemons are stuck with different base sizes.

Sovereign
01-10-2007, 20:35
The only logical reason I can think of is that they've deliberately made them flavourless to force people to collect an all-Daemon army.

there are no Daemonic Beasts or Nurglings, the Daemons are stuck with different base sizes.
I agree that GW simplified the Daemons to distinguish from the Marked Daemons, and I don't see any problem with that.

Beasts and Nurglings can be represented by Spawn.

agio65
01-10-2007, 20:54
[QUOTE=Sovereign;1965506]I agree that GW simplified the Daemons to distinguish from the Marked Daemons, and I don't see any problem with that.

at the moment i have to agree, but how will it work as soon as GW puts the Marked Ones back on the List ( Deamon Book/Codex) :confused: