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njfed
01-10-2007, 16:30
I was reading the preview of Dawn of War: Soulstorm in Games for Windows. This quote had me shaking my head in puzzlement:

"Further complicating the balance issues is the addition, for the first time, of air units. Every race is getting them in Soulstorm except for the Necron, who (being underground for 60 million years) simply did not have the lore to support it in GW's elaborate storyline."

Excuse me?!?!

http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.us?do=List_Models&code=301005&orignav=300812&GameNav=300808

Grimsbo
01-10-2007, 16:43
They don't have any small scale spaceships/bombers/fighters/ect like the imperial guard Valkyrie, space marine Thunderhawk, Tau barracuda or Eldar Void Dragon Phoenix.
Necrons dosnt seem like they need it.

Ozendorph
01-10-2007, 16:51
Mastery of space-time continuum and inter-dimensional travel > Low altitude bombers.

njfed
01-10-2007, 16:51
But the Necrons built spaceships. Why is it so strange to assume they built some type of flying unit? They could have had them in the tombs with everything else. To say that the lore does not support it is just silly. The US military uses unmanned drones, why not the Necrons?

WordBearer
01-10-2007, 16:51
Excuse me?!?!

http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.us?do=List_Models&code=301005&orignav=300812&GameNav=300808Those are all spacecraft, not atmospheric flyers.

Lord Of The Night
01-10-2007, 16:58
Like already said they are spaceships not fighters/bombers.
even if you look up the rules for BFG necron ships they don't have any sort of short range craft like fighters or thunderhawks just portals to teleport warriors and scarabs around.

skott4991
01-10-2007, 17:05
Makes sense to me.

E-616
01-10-2007, 17:14
I think it's simply a case of Forgeworld having not made a similar scale Necron flyer and DoW relying on exisiting miniatures to base their units on.

Personally I don't think it's unfeasable that Necrons could have an equivalent of this type of craft though, maybe they'll get something different to make up for losing out... The Pylon perhaps.

The_Outsider
01-10-2007, 17:31
Meh necrosn aren't the sort of race that needs air support.

problems with planes or mass armies? more monoliths or a couple pylons.

mistformsquirrel
01-10-2007, 17:35
Meh necrosn aren't the sort of race that needs air support.

problems with planes or mass armies? more monoliths or a couple pylons.

Or perhaps even Heavy Destroyers can ramp up their speed enough to fight enemy aircraft? I know that sounds like a stretch, but we are talking Necron tech here... (And true, Monoliths, especially with the new Phalanx formation would certainly make airpower... well, less threatening)

Rirekon
01-10-2007, 17:36
Why would you need fighters when a Warrior can shoot any aircraft out of the sky?
Why would you need bombers when you can teleport a Monolith directly onto the target?

I'm glad they didn't add any, totally redundant as far as the Necron's are concerned..

Tarsus
01-10-2007, 17:46
In gothic im pretty sure they use swarms of scarabs instead of fighters and bombers.

Bookwrak
01-10-2007, 17:54
Nope. Not that I'm aware of at least.

Although in the atmosphere, they could just throw scarab swarms at aircraft until they eat holes in it, or the engines seize up.

setekhite
01-10-2007, 17:54
The new DoW game is just keeping in with Epic - when the Necron list began development, there was a specific constraint of 'no flyers'. Air combat is primarily there so that the winners can then strike at enemy strategic assets or ground forces; Necrons can do that directly via teleportation or, in extremis, orbital bombardment. If the Necrons were going to proactively deal with an enemy air force, the solution would most likely be to teleport an assault force onto the airfield and destroy the aircraft on the ground.

To complete the picture, they do have an awesomely good air defence system in the form of the Pylon. Since these machines can teleport where they're needed, when they're needed, and cover a LOT of ground, the normal disadvantages of ground-based air defence don't apply.

Basically, Necrons have no need of aircraft per se - they can do everything that air power provides anyway. It therefore becomes a point of character thay they don't use any.

Finn
01-10-2007, 18:23
In gothic im pretty sure they use swarms of scarabs instead of fighters and bombers.

I've got a 'cron fleet. They teleport warriors onto enemy ships from close range.

Unfortunately, enemy shields have to be down - which is totally bogus. Necron fleets are almost impossible to win with, especially against that stupid overpowered nova cannon.

I've got an Imperial Fleet too, and I still think the nova cannon is beardy cheese. I avoid using it whenever possible.

Grazzy
01-10-2007, 18:30
Yeah, i think they mean atmospheric flyers that would be seen flying about over battles, not space ships fighting around planets and moons. While i am sure that necrons would have some sort of ship like this, there is no GW fluff describing them.

Finn
01-10-2007, 18:34
Meh, 'crons wouldn't have atmosphere fighters. If anything, they'd fire with their lightning arcs from low orbit, but I doubt even that. To deal with enemy airpower they'd just teleport a half dozen monoliths to the airbase and portal in a couple hundred warriors to deal with any nearby food that may be resisting being eaten.

The_Outsider
01-10-2007, 19:13
More on the pylon thing, weren't they (in the old IA rules) AA and titan killer (or something along those lines)?

cuda1179
01-10-2007, 19:37
Well, if they added pylons and made monoliths able to take out aircraft better it would balance things nicely. It would make using a Couple loan aircraft futile against a necron base, but is would leave them vulnerable in the feild.

setekhite
01-10-2007, 20:39
Well, if they added pylons and made monoliths able to take out aircraft better it would balance things nicely. It would make using a Couple loan aircraft futile against a necron base, but is would leave them vulnerable in the feild.

Pylons in Epic and Apocalypse are horribly effective AA units (yes I have read the apoc rules, before anyone asks).

What makes them viable as roving AA units is that they can teleport in like Monoliths. In 'grand tactical' terms, they can always be with the Necron forces they're protecting, so Necrons do not need to be vulnerable to aircraft once they've deployed. This gets around both the traditional disadvantages of ground-based air defence (can only protect a small area) and protective fighters (which don't stick around).

chinnfrequent
01-10-2007, 21:58
New Dawn of War! :eek:

It better have Tyranids.

logosloki
01-10-2007, 22:14
New Dawn of War! :eek:

It better have Tyranids.

hate to break it to you but the magic eight ball says "don't count on it"

MALICIOUS LOGIC
02-10-2007, 01:09
Mastery of space-time continuum and inter-dimensional travel > Low altitude bombers.

lol. Well said!

I think the current fiction is based around them effectively mastering space and time. They can teleport exactly where they need to be. Their weapons can destroy anything that gets near them.

The Pylon is anti everything and can even teleport into battle!

~Logic

Farsot
02-10-2007, 12:00
Well it will have two new Armies, question is which one is the second one after/along with the Dark Eldars?

Rirekon
02-10-2007, 12:14
Tyranids, there aren't any other races to add

*glares at Daemon Hunters and Witch Hunters*
You two shut the hell up, you're not real armies and your parents hate you!

Ahem, as I was saying; It'll be Tyranids.

Brother_Falco
02-10-2007, 12:50
They've said repeatedly they're not doing 'nids til DoW2 as they don't feel the engine does them justice. the smart money is on SoB...which will be interesting to implement.

gLOBS
02-10-2007, 13:13
Maybe they can do a LatD or Genestealer cult army?

loveless
02-10-2007, 13:23
They've said repeatedly they're not doing 'nids til DoW2 as they don't feel the engine does them justice. the smart money is on SoB...which will be interesting to implement.

As amazing as the current SoB mod looks (not that it will EVER be released:rolleyes:), it'd almost be sad to see the DoW team steal the glory at the last second.

Ethan Hunt
02-10-2007, 15:21
Or the Tyranid mod, while not perfected yet, shows that the 'nids can be done on the current Dow engine,
Sounds cool, the 'crons don't "need" an atmospheric aircraft so desperately as other races could... with Pylons, Monoliths, teleporting abilities better than anyone, powerful ships that can deliver quite precise and striking orbital bombardment, etc. I saw some scythes bombarding a planet with their lightning bolts at the Bfg annual. It was cool at seeing, and creepy to think. :)
I saw some screenies of Soulstorm at IGN. They looked nice, dark eldar, with warp beasts?, witches, incubus and those nice Raven fighters making a low altitude pass, it's gonna be cool.

Finn
02-10-2007, 15:32
Or the Tyranid mod, while not perfected yet, shows that the 'nids can be done on the current Dow engine...I saw some scythes bombarding a planet with their lightning bolts at the Bfg annual. It was cool at seeing, and creepy to think.

Indeed, and it's very dark and rainy out this morning - are those lightning arcs I see outside? :P...

My former roommate played with the 'nid mod, said it was pretty nifty. I have yet to check it out though...


I saw some screenies of Soulstorm at IGN. They looked nice, dark eldar, with warp beasts?, witches, incubus and those nice Raven fighters making a low altitude pass, it's gonna be cool.

Got a link?

Lord_Squinty
02-10-2007, 16:32
They don't have any small scale spaceships/bombers/fighters/ect like the imperial guard Valkyrie, space marine Thunderhawk, Tau barracuda or Eldar Void Dragon Phoenix.
Necrons dosnt seem like they need it.

A Thunderhawk is a small scale fighter / bomber?? :eyebrows:


In gothic im pretty sure they use swarms of scarabs instead of fighters and bombers.

In the first write up of they're rules - you are correct - they used scarab swarms to counter enemy fighters / bombers.

Ozendorph
02-10-2007, 16:42
A Thunderhawk is a small scale fighter / bomber?? :eyebrows:



It's all relative. Compared to Imperial cruisers and Battle Barges, yes, they are small in scale. A Thunderhawk would probably have about the same mass as a C-130, I'd imagine.

Finn
02-10-2007, 17:37
Try a C-5 Galaxy, at LEAST... :P I mean the thing carries Land Raiders sometimes. A C-130 couldn't do that. A C-5 might be able to...

Ozendorph
02-10-2007, 17:59
Try a C-5 Galaxy, at LEAST... :P I mean the thing carries Land Raiders sometimes. A C-130 couldn't do that. A C-5 might be able to...

Not to be argumentative, but...

C-130 (it's kind of a big picture, so I linked it)

http://www.ak-prepared.com/DMVA/images/C/c130.jpg

Thunderhawk

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/spacemarines/7.jpg

C5-A Galaxy

http://k43.pbase.com/u47/ralf/upload/30391812.PIC27224.jpg


Galaxies are really, really big.

etancross
02-10-2007, 18:31
aren't 'crons slow as all get out? wouldn't they be horriable in turning, banking, dog fights etc? I mean i see a lot of cool metalic looking spacecraft running head first into buildings and mountains as their flown by their necron pilots!

etancross
02-10-2007, 18:36
and over on relic forums they say the are adding Dark Eldar..... and thats all for races

Finn
02-10-2007, 19:43
My bad on the C-130 call...I was fairly certain Thunderhawks were larger than that. This means that, using it/C-130/marines/people as reference, GW's models aren't in scale with each other. But then, we already knew this...


Actually, 'cron spacecraft are speedy little buggers. How's 50cm movement for escorts grab you? For reference, Imperial cruisers move at 20cm and most Chaos move 25cm...

They've also got inertia-free drives on their spacecraft which let them move extra fast when on All Ahead Full - d6x10 bonus cm in movement, IIRC.

Necrons are only slow physically - controlling a spacecraft/aircraft would be mostly a mental challenge, and not a challenge at all for those evil robots.

etancross
02-10-2007, 19:48
My bad on the C-130 call...I was fairly certain Thunderhawks were larger than that. This means that, using it/C-130/marines/people as reference, GW's models aren't in scale with each other. But then, we already knew this...


Actually, 'cron spacecraft are speedy little buggers. How's 50cm movement for escorts grab you? For reference, Imperial cruisers move at 20cm and most Chaos move 25cm...

They've also got inertia-free drives on their spacecraft which let them move extra fast when on All Ahead Full - d6x10 bonus cm in movement, IIRC.

Necrons are only slow physically - controlling a spacecraft/aircraft would be mostly a mental challenge, and not a challenge at all for those evil robots.


Oh... well .... ok then :)

Durath
02-10-2007, 20:24
Excuse me?!?!

http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.us?do=List_Models&code=301005&orignav=300812&GameNav=300808

Considering the smallest of these models would fill almost an entire DoW Map view, I can sorta understand why they aren't included.

Lord_Squinty
03-10-2007, 08:09
It's all relative. Compared to Imperial cruisers and Battle Barges, yes, they are small in scale. A Thunderhawk would probably have about the same mass as a C-130, I'd imagine.

OK, In relative terms - compare the Thunderhawk to the Thunderbolt / void dragon / ork fighter etc - it totally outclasses each one in every way. *except maybe speed / agility*

The others are small fighters with a few heavy weapons - the TH is a large orbital lander.

Doesn't seem in balance really..

azimaith
03-10-2007, 08:18
I was reading the preview of Dawn of War: Soulstorm in Games for Windows. This quote had me shaking my head in puzzlement:

"Further complicating the balance issues is the addition, for the first time, of air units. Every race is getting them in Soulstorm except for the Necron, who (being underground for 60 million years) simply did not have the lore to support it in GW's elaborate storyline."

Excuse me?!?!

http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.us?do=List_Models&code=301005&orignav=300812&GameNav=300808


Necron space craft can go atmospheric you know. How else would the Shroud Class light cruisers manage to land one on Mars?

The real answer is a haughty fluff based "they don't need it". Considering the necron "warrior" isn't really a warrior but a farmer, and his gauss flayer is essentially his hoe there may not be a need to break out actual military craft.
You have to remember the necron armies people are fighting in current 40k, according to the creators, are harvester armies, not conquering armies.

khan
03-10-2007, 10:43
They could use a big tombspyder!

But I guess a tombhamster could do!

Railhead
03-10-2007, 11:02
Arent thunderhawks shown at the vehicle factory (no its not the real name) for the space marines? That flying van that drops of the parts

If they are really gonna add aircraft then the IG should have a valkery. It rocks more then a avalanche of 3 ton boulders

As for the necrons, they indeed are so advanced they overcame the need of aircraft. Giving a necron army aircraft is the same as a modern day US navy aircraftcarrier with ww1 biplanes:P

Scribemite
05-10-2007, 19:14
Arent thunderhawks shown at the vehicle factory (no its not the real name) for the space marines? That flying van that drops of the parts

If they are really gonna add aircraft then the IG should have a valkery. It rocks more then a avalanche of 3 ton boulders

As for the necrons, they indeed are so advanced they overcame the need of aircraft. Giving a necron army aircraft is the same as a modern day US navy aircraftcarrier with ww1 biplanes:P

Yes, Thunderhawk Transports land on the SM Machine Cults, Valkyrie transports mate with the Imperial Guard tank factory (now I forget *that* building's name) and Ork Bombahs drop off the balls of trash that Gretchin turn into Ork buildings. The scale of the aircraft is small compared to the other units, but that'd be fine with me if they were usable as tactical units in the game.

As for Necron airstrike power: As said before, a lot of Scarabs can do the job. Maybe Necrons can have an upgrade for the Scarabs or a special unit of fast fighter/bomber Scarabs.

Sekhmet
05-10-2007, 20:22
Mastery of space-time continuum and inter-dimensional travel > Low altitude bombers.
You're the first person I've ever sigged.


Not to be argumentative, but...

C-130 (it's kind of a big picture, so I linked it)

Thunderhawk

C5-A Galaxy

Galaxies are really, really big.
I've been in a C-5 Galaxy.... flight deck and the cargo area place. Yes, it can fit two M1 Tanks in it. You would never expect something so big to be able to move, let alone fly.

I haven't been in a C-130, but I've been up close... and I'd say a C-130 is about the size of a Thunderhawk. Sure, a C-130 can't physically carry a main battle tank, but it has the physical space to, if you do some rearranging to make it look like a Thunderhawk.

Voltaire
05-10-2007, 22:17
It seems to be that most people have forgotten that the necrontyr have mastered the use of anti-gravity and that this is going to have a profound effect on how they would operate their Wraiths, move their tomb Spiders and generally are able to be much better than other people when it comes to gravity defying technology. Something tells me a few aircraft aren't going to be any problem.

Failing that, necrons dont need to breath so bringing in some of their smaller sized ships from BFG to act as fighters wouldn't be much of a problem.

Sekhmet
05-10-2007, 23:20
Failing that, necrons dont need to breath so bringing in some of their smaller sized ships from BFG to act as fighters wouldn't be much of a problem.

It would for game balance.

The Necron ships could be extremely powerful because they don't need the mass nor energy for life support... probably not even inertial dampeners.

Finn
06-10-2007, 00:40
They have inertia-free propulsion ;) Makes them able to go extra fast!

Lord_Squinty
06-10-2007, 00:44
It would for game balance.

The Necron ships could be extremely powerful.

And a Thunderhawk Vs a Valkyrie is balanced how?

Terraneaux
06-10-2007, 01:40
IG should get Marauders...

Sekhmet
06-10-2007, 02:34
And a Thunderhawk Vs a Valkyrie is balanced how?

Just like a Marine vs a Guardsman is (in theory) balanced, using the concept of points...