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GreatRedGobbo
01-10-2007, 17:59
Ok, heres the deal folks! I finally have time to play/paint warhammer again so I am excited to get into the hobby again so I want to start a new fantasy and 40k army that is linked to a degree that would allow me to create and paint a very unique army. I have always found the knightly orders such as the templars, hospitallers, and Teutonic order to be fascinating so that is where I am basing my army organization and such off of.

My next step was to decide a background that I could work from. In the old background for warhammer, there were gods of law similar to the gods of chaos, and to me it seems that this would fit perfectly with my desire to make a knightly order (i didn't want to do a knightly order like the blazing sun, more of a divinely inspired and empowered order). I have been trying to find info on the gods of law but it is rather sparse since they were almost entirely dropped by GW. I did found the god Solkan, the god of vengeance, justice, and retribution, who looks to fill the bill for a patron. So here are a few questions I wanted to discuss with the more knowledgable folks at warseer :)

1. What fantasy army list would match the goal of a knightly order that is divinely empowered? I was thinking maybe just using the hordes of chaos list, but maybe someone here has a better idea!

2. Where could I find more info on the gods of law, and is there a god of law that would be better for a militant order than solkan?

3. Any hobby related suggestions such as converting a model into a daemon prince sized angel to use as a seraph?

lastly, any random suggestions or encouragement is welcome :D

Cherrystone
01-10-2007, 18:14
Solkan would fit a witch hunter style army (empire) and the most 'war like'.
Thers a character in the Genevieve noval that worships Solkan.

As or Alluminas and Arianka i think their worship is to small/cultish to be able to muster a wfb army.

Nineswords
01-10-2007, 19:08
From 'Mad' Alfred Nunez' WHFR page.

SOLKAN -- Law God of Vengeance and Retribution

Description: Solkan is the brother of Alluminas (god of heavenly illumination) and brother/consort of Arianka (goddess of law and discipline) and is the angry god of vengeance and retribution. He is most often depicted as a tall, intense man on the edge of fury. Solkan is usually attired either in shiny armor or in black clothing with a wide brim black hat. In either appearance, Solkan is always armed with his flaming sword of vengeance, Flammendrung.

The cult believes that Solkan was the foremost of the Law Gods who allied themselves with the forces opposing the Chaos powers. The alliance was more one of convenience than of convergent beliefs. It was the Law Gods who advocated total war with the goal of eradication of Chaos, even at the risk of destroying everything. When the war ended in stalemate, the Law Gods broke from the alliance. In conjunction with Arianka, Solkan became the most unrelenting foe of Chaos. Sometime later, the complex machinations of Tzeentch, the Changer of the Ways, resulted in the capture and imprisonment of Arianka.

Deprived of his sister/consort (and receiving no help from his esoteric brother Alluminas), Solkan intensified (if such was possible) his campaign against Chaos while searching for Arianka. Solkan also became the patron of law and discipline at the time of Arianka's imprisonment.

Some scholars of divine matters believe the Law Gods to be another manifestation of Chaos and point out that worship of the Law Gods did not commence in any form until sometime after the coming of Chaos. Others say that the Gods of Law pursued the Chaos powers into the world to continue their ages old war. Whatever the truth, all scholars of divine matters agree it is safest not to discuss these matters within earshot of any Gods of Law cultists.

Alignment: Law.

Symbol: Solkan's symbol is the flame. Priests wear black hooded robes trimmed with the colors of fire (reds, oranges, and yellows) and wear amulets of blackened iron with a fire opal embedded into its center (representing the cleansing flame).

Area of Worship: Solkan is worshipped throughout the Old World. In the past, Solkan was the principle deity of the now-extinct, militant Hellene city-state of Spartius. Solkan also enjoyed some popularity (which varied with each Emperor) within the Remean Empire. Currently, the followers of Solkan are few compared to other Old World cults (though more numerous than Alluminas).

Temples: Once there were great temples dedicated to Solkan. The two largest were located in Spartius (ruins of which are buried beneath the soil in the land of Border Princes) and the Tilean city-state of Remas. These temples were solidly built structures with outer columns surrounding the exterior walls. The columns and walls were austere in design, lacking ornamentation of any sort. The interior of the temples were unfurnished except for an altar and podium upon which stood the Solkan "Book of Laws" (lost in some past disaster). What remains of the temple in Remas is largely ruins with only a small portion still in use. Here, amid uncaring masses (to whom the Chaos threat serves only to frighten wayward children), remains the center of the cult and its hierarchy.

The temples' decline can be traced to increasing intolerance, fear, and distrust of Old Worlders towards the narrow perceptions and rigidness of the Solkanites. In accord with this decline was the rise of the Solkan shrines where cultists meet in small, highly cohesive groups. These shrines are generally located adjacent to homes of a priest, near courtrooms, or housed at a location purchased by cultists. Outwardly, these shrines can not be distinguished from the surrounding buildings. The interiors, however, resemble the old temple interiors with only an altar
and podium as furnishings.

Friends and Enemies: As the cults of Sigmar and Ulric are seen as the forefront of the weak struggle against Chaos, the cult of Solkan affords them minimal respect, while being somewhat contemptible of the other Old World cults. Also, they are openly hostility towards the cult of Ranald for their flaunting of authority. Moreover, the cult of Solkan has a barely concealed disdain for cults of the Elder Races (they failed miserably in the first battles to eradicate Chaos). Further, the cult is the sworn enemies of-- and possess unbridled hatred toward-- all Chaos cults (the four powers and the Horned Rat), including the renegade powers (e.g., Malal, Zuvassin).

Holy Days: There are no specific holy days dedicated to Solkan as the threat of Chaos is unrelenting and cultists must be ever vigilant.

Cult Requirements: Any who petition to join the cult must be free of Chaos taint and approved by a Cleric.

Strictures: Followers of Solkan must abide by the following:

Always oppose and, if possible, exterminate Chaos and its minions whenever and wherever they are encountered.
Never allow those who are soft and blind to the Chaos threat dissuade one from the primary task.
Never allow others' opinions of oneself or Solkan to deter from the primary duty.
Always hold inviolate the letter of the law (unless that law is counter to the above principles). The so-called "spirit of the law" concept is employed by those too weak to discipline law-breakers.
Always oppose foolish "laws" which make a mockery of the natural order. Examples include edicts which would protect servants of Chaos (mutants, cultists, etc.) and those that grant the lowly classes (thieves, beggars, peasants) the same rights as those of higher breeding (aristocracy).
Never allow a wrong to go unanswered.

Spell Use: Clerics of Solkan may use all Petty Magic, Battle Magic, and fire-based Elemental Magic spells. In addition, clerics of Solkan may have access to the Demonic spells Dispel Lesser Demons (Level 1), Zone of Demonic Protection (Level 1), Zone of Demonic Nullification (Level 2), Dispel Demonic Horde (Level 3), and Dispel Greater Demon (Level 4). Moreover, the following spells may be used by clerics of Solkan:

Sword of Cleansing Flame
Spell Level: 3
Magic Points: 15
Range: Touch
Duration: 1d6+3 rounds
Ingredients: None

This spell grants the cleric the ability to cause one touched sword to become a magical flaming weapon for the duration of the spell. In addition this spell grants the wielder of the sword of cleansing flame a temporary increase of +10 to WS and +1 to Strength.

Inflammable creatures receive 1d6+2 wounds at the strength of the wielder while flammable creatures receive 2d6+4 wounds at the strength of the wielder. Flammable objects struck by the sword of cleansing flame will be set aflame.

The sword of cleansing flame has great power against Demons and Chaotic beings, causing 3d6+6 wounds at the strength of the wielder. Also, Demons hit by the sword of the cleansing flame must make an Instability test immediately, even those who are protected by the Demonic Magic spell Stop Demonic Instability (Level 2).


Intervention
Spell Level: 4
Magic Points: 25
Range: 100 yards
Duration: 1d3 hours
Ingredients: None

The spell grants the cleric an appeal to his patron to possess a cultist (or invoking Priest) during an extremely dire situation (e.g., being surrounded by a Chaos warband led by a Greater Demon). The possessed cultist assumes the profile and abilities of a Greater Demon. In addition, the effected cultist grows in height to that of a Greater Demon and may cause fear in creatures of less than 10 feet in height. Note: the possessed cultist will always follow the dictates of their patron deity.

There is a high degree of risk to the possessed cultist, however, in that the driving force of Solkan's burning passions may consume the cultist. The effected cultist must test vs. Toughness x 10, adding a +10 modifier. Success means that the cultist will be exhausted and unable to perform strenuous activities for the following 1d3 hours. If failed by 20 or less points, the cultist suffers 1d6 wounds at strength 5 from burns inflicted by the possession. If failed by over 20 points, the cultist suffers 2d6 wounds at strength 10.

Skills: In addition to normal skills available to Initiates and Clerics, followers of Solkan may acquire one of the following skills at each level: Dodge Blow, Follow Trail, Immunity to Disease, Law, Orientation, Set Traps, Shadowing, Silent Move-Urban, Sixth Sense, Spot Traps, Strike Mighty Blow, Strike to Injure, Strike to Stun, Torture. As always, skills gained must be paid for by Experience Points.

Trials: Trials set by Solkan generally involve confronting and defeating Chaos encroachments. Examples include destroying Chaos shrines, clearing an area of marauding bands of Chaos creatures, and exposing (at great personal risk, naturally) Chaos infiltration at high levels of society.

Blessings: Skills favored by Solkan tend to be martial in nature (such as Dodge Blow, Strike to Stun, etc.) or those used in pursuing quarry (.g., Follow Trail, Shadowing. Tests favored by Solkan are fear, terror, poison, disease, and other tests made to counter the special attack forms of any servant or creature of Chaos. Other blessings might include a temporary increase to Weapon Skill, Will Power, or Cool.

You can view his page here: http://www.madalfred.darcore.net/

I would run with Solkan as he is the most militant of the Law Gods and the Anti Chaos theme is a good one to base your army around. I think the Empire Knightly Orders is a good place to start with your rules but the background can help with the modelling aspects of it. Enjoy.

GreatRedGobbo
01-10-2007, 19:25
Thank you very much for that resource! I am currently on the wedpage doing some research.

On your comments and the previous poster, I kind of thought that the gods of law would bless their chosen warriors similarly to the chaos gods (increased strength toughness, stuff like that) but it looks it isn't like that. Would say that the statement that the gods of law don't bless in a similar enough fashion to use the hordes of chaos list?

EDIT: I just was reading more of the stuff you gave me. I think that I will base it off of the Knights of the Cleansing Flame.

gorenut
01-10-2007, 19:33
I think both Bretonnian and Emire would be good armies to prepresent what you want. Probably Bretonnian moreso. Just switch up any damsels with high priests or something. They're all blessed by the Lady ruleswise by giving an army wide ward save for your knights, just replace that fluffwise with your patron. Their characters are also pretty hard, I've seen them take down Chaos Lord and Vampire Counts with a little luck and the right virtues/gear up.

GreatRedGobbo
01-10-2007, 19:44
thats interesting, brets would definitely fit well. As far as I know, there are demon-like creatures for the gods of law like the chaos gods. Maybe I could model some angels and use them as grail knights?

Angel of the Black Parade
01-10-2007, 19:51
Bretonians will be the best i think. You could paint the knights all one scheme, if you wanted to link them. On the Angel front, convert from something like a Greater Slannesh Demon.

Nineswords
01-10-2007, 20:21
I forsee some Flagellent models with hooded robes painted up like the Necromunda Redemptionists happening - that would be awesome for infantry.

GreatRedGobbo
01-10-2007, 20:27
I could use those as either actual flagellents or if I use the bret list, use them as battle pilgrims maybe.

I wish that the bret list had some heavy infantry on foot because when I was envisioning the order it had infantry similar to medieval total war 2's hospitallar order's heavy infantry.

Coragus
01-10-2007, 20:29
Consider the Dogs of War list. You have access to the knights, which could be any order. You have access to skirmishing infantry (Duelists), which can be warrior priests. Your General has a lot of equipment options and can easily be a preacher-type. You also have access to crossbows. You do have to take a Paymaster, but that could represent a Holy Icon Bearer and keep the rules the same. Not a very varied army, but with the right models, it would look pretty religious.

Beast
06-10-2007, 21:18
I'd use the Chaos list mate. Angels=screamers, Chaos Warriors and Chosen=Heroes of Law, a nice chariot centrepiece etc etc.
Hard as nails too;)

T10
06-10-2007, 23:22
Solkan would fit a witch hunter style army (empire) and the most 'war like'.
Thers a character in the Genevieve noval that worships Solkan.

As or Alluminas and Arianka i think their worship is to small/cultish to be able to muster a wfb army.

Agreed.

I believe a Solkanite army can be well represented by Chaos army (as suggested by the original poster). Khorne can represent the aspect of the overly zealous fanatics, and Slaanesh can represent the disciplined elite.

However, the worshippers of the Gods of Law tend to be of... human potential, so perhaps an Empire with lots of Knights and greatswords led by a Grand Marshal would be the most appropriate. The Empire army also give you access to warrior priests and flagellants. Your Empire Captains can represent witchhunters.

-T10

Finnigan2004
06-10-2007, 23:34
I like using chaos too. You could even make a large angelic avatar as a leader, and use a daemon prince or greater daemon's stats. It could be very cool.

feintstar
08-10-2007, 13:56
I'd be keen, model wise, to grab the Nightbringer/the deceiver and add Pegasus Wings. You'd need a headswap, which might be tricky in that scale, but you can always go for a Greek Hoplite style helmet such as Asurmen's oversized thing. Then all you need is an awesome sword, and there are plenty of those. Though ideally, you'd add fire to it somehow...

And judging by the fluff, I'd say bloodthirster. If its a god of law incarnate, then its antimagic, and if its a god of war and vengeance opposed to Tzeentch, then its definitely Khorne. And best of all, you can expect him to be as intimidating as he looks, and well worth the conversion in game time.

Hvidponi
09-10-2007, 08:21
If you want to go bretonnia, Pegasus Knights could go as angels... Flying, big, statwise ok... Just like.. Noob Angels...
But Chaos seems to be the "easy" choice...

Defender of Ulthuan
09-10-2007, 23:01
I've been into chaos for a while, and have had some thoughts on the matter. If you wanted a more celestial style army, definately go chaos (furies are good angels. Maybe even standard core if your opponent is ok with removing the 0-1 for house rules). However, if you wanted a more mortal based army, I would say Empire's your best bet (lots of knights, and the warrior priests are a nice touch, especially because they already have deamon-killing abilities). Good luck; i hope they're awsome.

GreatRedGobbo
10-10-2007, 14:21
Thanks for the suggestions guys! I recently have purchased a very good historical account of the templars, or poor fellow knights of solkan (eerr christ). :)

It is a very interesting read to begin with but it has helped flesh out my background, which I will expand on later today.

I bought the book for empire, and the choice that is before me is definitely what you guys have said. Chaos if I want a more "divininely" guided and lead force with angels and such or Empire if I want a more grounded quasi-realistic templar order. I decided against a bretonnian army because the infantry, men-at-arms, would not do the templar sergeants any justice at all, and from what I have read the full templar brothers were usually outnumbered by around 1 to 9 by sergeants and other non-full brothers (associates or what not).

On a random hobby note, I am using the men-at-arms models for the templar sergeants. I will paint them with an either black or brown overcoat (historical colors for the sergeants) and paint the shield the white with red cross. I am trying to retain as much of the colors and symbols of the templars as possible, but I need a way to incorporate the flames of solkan, any ideas?

EDIT: just as a note, after I have decided on an army list to use I will start a thread for the ongoing project with pictures and such!