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soots
02-10-2007, 01:00
So we saw LoTR and we saw the godlike elves striking first and completely carving up the Orcs. We saw GW give high elves ASF rule to represent this.

We also saw Wood elves been given a buttload of treekin creatures that maul everything in melee

Does this mean when they release VC the undead will be able to completely destroy a 50,000 point orc army in 5 seconds like they did in Return of the King?

Sovereign
02-10-2007, 01:03
They can't do that already?

Holy Crap! Manticores!
02-10-2007, 01:28
^ It takes them one or two turns... not quite 5 seconds.

The only question that remains:
What kind of overpowered, unbalanced cheese will the Dark Elves get?

Agoz
02-10-2007, 02:20
Dark elves hmmm... well they could always end up with the forgotten realms approach ;)

Ktotwf
02-10-2007, 02:24
The Vampire Lords need to be like Sauron - throwing a dozen guys around with every attack.

Sovereign
02-10-2007, 03:10
The Vampire Lords need to be like Sauron - throwing a dozen guys around with every attack.
Sauron wasn't a Vampire.

MysticTitan
02-10-2007, 03:29
Sauron wasn't a Vampire.


So you have guys thrown around and make the vampire gain wounds by drinking blood from people that withstood.

Methrin
02-10-2007, 03:49
Sauron wasn't a Vampire.

Sauron was "The Necromancer" in The Hobbit.

feintstar
02-10-2007, 04:05
I figure that the Dark Elves with have hatred, but for everything. And vs high elves, they'll probably be eternal hatred, hating away every turn.

Ktotwf
02-10-2007, 04:23
Sauron wasn't a Vampire.

He takes the form of a Vampire dripping blood from his neck in the Silmarillion.

Neodysseus
02-10-2007, 04:27
With LotR having it's own dedicated GW product line isn't this kind of...I dunno:eyebrows:

Orion doesn't look much like Thranduil to me. Having said that, the LotR Necromancer model is "teh poo".

I'll leave things were they lie and bow out before it's too late.

The SkaerKrow
02-10-2007, 05:11
Tolkien's Elves were "godlike," in that, if you follow his mythology, Elves aren't too far removed from the gods themselves.

Beyond that, I don't really believe that Lord of the Rings had anything to do with the development of the rules in the new High Elf book. The designers set a precident a long time ago for all Elves by fixing their Toughness at 3 (or less), and consistently giving them troop types with WS 5/6. Essentially, Elves aren't supposed to get hit, and if they do get hit, they shatter like glass. Well, in 6th Edition they had shattering like glass down, but never really achieved the not getting hit part. Speed of Asuryan is just the developer's attempt to realize that missing aspect of their tabletop identity.

On the other hand, I will concede that the Lord of the Rings movies did have a stylistic impact on the Wood Elves. Their previous incarnation as "Green High Elves" was fairly lackluster, and it seems that the LOTR films helped the GW designers find an identity for them in Warhammer.

Finally, there was only one true "Vampire" in Tolkien's work, and she never appeared in the Lord of the Rings. Sauron was not a Vampire, and the Army of the Dead really aren't comparable to a bunch of rotting bodies and bones with delusions of mobility. You should expect the new Vampire Counts to be...Vampire Counts, with some rules tweaks. Unlike High Elves, they aren't in serious need of an overhaul.

Neodysseus
02-10-2007, 05:19
I'm a glutton for punishment. THE vampiress was named Thuringwethil. Sauron was just a masterful shape-changer (during the fight with Huan he started as a werewolf and changed to a serpent before becoming a "vampire" to escape by flight) until his destruction during the downfall of Numenor, after which he could only appear (according to the professor's own notes) as a terrible dark lord, further he was said to be literally black and larger than a man but not as large as a giant (yes, giants are referrenced in The Hobbit, as well as iirc Adventures of Tom Bombadil or Farmer Giles) with four fingers on his "ring" hand. The whole "eye" business from the movies is terribly misleading as the books maintain the ambiguity of his actual physical form throughout the series and the "eye" is always referenced in relation to the psyche of the ring-bearer.

The SkaerKrow
02-10-2007, 05:20
Yep, I know. Glad to know someone else does too. ;)

Ktotwf
02-10-2007, 05:21
Finally, there was only one true "Vampire" in Tolkien's work, and she never appeared in the Lord of the Rings. Sauron was not a Vampire, and the Army of the Dead really aren't comparable to a bunch of rotting bodies and bones with delusions of mobility. You should expect the new Vampire Counts to be...Vampire Counts, with some rules tweaks. Unlike High Elves, they aren't in serious need of an overhaul.

I am well aware Sauron was not a Vampire; however he could and did take the FORM of a Vampire.

What makes the Army of Sauron like the armies of the Vampire Counts is that they are huge hordes of crappy soldiers driven on by the will of a single dark Master. That is why I tend to think that the Vampire Counts are more like Sauron than any other characters in the Warhammer setting.

Neodysseus
02-10-2007, 05:44
Honestly, if any WHFB army could be compared to the armies of Mordor idealogically it would be chaos undivided with Sauron as THE general (Archaon? Crom?), chaos humans supplanting the role of demons and orcs and goblins filling the role of of the humans.

Shouldn't be done. LotR will stand like an island unto itself in fantasy regardless of how anyone ever protrays it in any medium and GW's Warhammer should endeavor to follow it's example while paying homage.

George MacDonald>Lord Dunsany>J.R.R. Tolkein>Gary Gygax(this one dilutes the others alot but he was trying)=the roots of modern High Fantasy as differentiated from Sword & Sorcery (ie; Robert E. Howard, Fritz Leiber)

Warhammer=High Fantasy:)>Warcraft:cries:>the onslaught of the immediate gratification generation and the death throes of respect for what came before and imagination for what will come after.

I'm so far off-topic I'm going to have to do damage control if I don't stop now. To the OP, I'll humor you before I bail out.
Elves in LotR would be more like semi-immortal super Hebrews in an Old Testament context. Not divine themselves in anyway, only the Quendi or High Elves (the majority of whom died in the battle you mention) would have any residue of divinity about them from having lived in "heaven" and come back to earth on a mission of vengeance against Melkor ("the devil") who was Sauron's ("the devil's lil helper") boss long before the events of the movie. The big bad guy was defeated, but their mission failed so they were milling around waiting for Sauron to bust a move, which you saw and interpreted in your post.
Wood Elves with Treemen/kin/dryads I assume you're relating to the Sindar (grey elves) and Avari (elves that never had a notion to go to "heaven" in the first place so they'd be akin to heathens in a way) working in conjuction with Ents and Huorns. M'kay, whatever you say boss.
Nope, the Vampire Counts don't line up with The Oathbreakers (the name of the army of the dead in the movie) nearly as well as your elf theories did. Sorry, no dice. The VC will remain Hammer Horror and Army of Darkness parodies, as they should, still summoning craploads of creepies to do their dirty work while they blast away with magic.

The Old Scholar
02-10-2007, 07:02
No, I'm feeling you.
I'm an ancient old bastard and whenever I'm round these little young punks I have to listen to their computer crap...their X-box crap...their Playstation crap...WII...
Anyway,
Yeah, the movies came out and the Elves got their deserved refurbishment.
I hope I earn all of the fear and hate I rightfully deserve as the oldest **** on the block.
Well, there is the Slann, but who cares about the frogs?

soots
02-10-2007, 07:54
I cant beleive people actually think that LoTR has no bearing whatsoever on GWs WFB. Its extremely obvious that LoTR effects the fluff and ruleset of WFB.

The only other elves ive heard of are christmas elves that are 2 foot tall. All other elves originated from skillful immortal Tolkien elves that are agile, skillful archers who can handle the sword.

Both the woodelves and high elves have been even more so effected by LoTr especially since the movie release.

Im not saying its a bad thing, its a great way to get the Flavor of the month LoTR fans to flock to WFB. But theres no way you can deny it.

soots
02-10-2007, 08:01
If you have ever played world of warcraft, you will know why there is a bajillion night elf hunters which skewers the player dispersion to a silly degree. There are more night elf hunters than Taurens period, including Tauren warriors, T shamans, T druids, T Hunters etc.

Ktotwf
02-10-2007, 08:03
There is nothing wrong with having Elves be awesome - they are supposed to be damnit.

Neodysseus
02-10-2007, 08:17
Easily denied. Elves originate from Norse mythology, they were the tall, fell and blindingly bright subjects of the god Frey (read: origin of the word Fey which later becomes "Fairy") or conversely the dark, grim, stunted workers of the anvils (aka dwarves) below Yggdrasil, the world tree. There are the REAL WORLD origins of both Light Elves and Dark Elves and Dwarves by proxy. Then the Celts met the Scandiavians and decided the existance of Elves would explain alot of the phenomena in the world around them and since they never saw them doing it, they must be very small. Again, real world and here's where they got shrunk and took an interest in the affairs of mankind at all, according to man himself (arrogant bastid).
The concept of Elves continues on like this until Victorian authors decide these nonexistant little folklore people would be handy for thier "Fairy Tales".
Then...enter Lord Dunsany who enlarges the Elves back to human size and gives them weapons to wield again and a serious demeanor in the early 20th century novel, The King of Elf Lands Daughter. Tolkein takes his cue from this and in the 30's writes The Hobbit, then Poul Anderson takes his cue from them and writes The Broken Sword in the 50's with "that" kind of elf just before Tolkein gets LotR published which then get's popular and breaks Fantasy to adult readers in the mainstream. And it's been that way ever since. So, no, Tolkein didn't invent tall, take-no-prisoners, ass-kicking elves...they started out that way and evolved and devolved as story tellers needed them to.

Ktotwf
02-10-2007, 08:19
Yes, yes, thats all quite pedantic and silly, but that has little effects on modern conception of elves, or indeed, elves as they are in WHFB.

Elves are basically somewhat frailer than human, but they are lithe, athletic, and graceful. That is where I see their ASF rule coming from.

The SkaerKrow
02-10-2007, 08:23
Elves are basically somewhat frailer than human, but they are lithe, athletic, and graceful. That is where I see their ASF rule coming from.
That does make sense to me. I figured that the martial discipline of the High Elves is what changed them from being plain Initiative 5 guys to an ASF army.

Ktotwf
02-10-2007, 08:25
That does make sense to me. I figured that the martial discipline of the High Elves is what changed them from being plain Initiative 5 guys to an ASF army.

Yeah, lots of training + natural "catlike" qualities.

Neodysseus
02-10-2007, 08:41
Yes, yes, thats all quite pedantic and silly, but that has little effects on modern conception of elves, or indeed, elves as they are in WHFB.

Elves are basically somewhat frailer than human, but they are lithe, athletic, and graceful. That is where I see their ASF rule coming from.

Quite pendantic and silly:wtf:

Where do you think your preconcieved notions of frailty and grace, being lithe and "athletic" come from. No it's not posed as a question because it should be rhetorical and self-evident. Nose and face...meet knife.

Twisted Ferret
02-10-2007, 09:37
That was quite interesting, Neodysseus. Maybe I'm a pedant, but I enjoyed learning it. :)

Neodysseus
02-10-2007, 10:19
Haha, I misspelled pedantic.:p

Thank you for the kind word Ferret. If we're pedantic, then more power to us, because an understanding of the details is neccessary to analyze bigger pictures from an informed point of view.
And for the record, no offense was meant to anyone, it's just been a convoluted thread from the start and I'm trying to get out with as little damage and as much grace as possible.