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zoodog
02-10-2007, 01:30
While it had its purposes in the past with the new precedent of bolter, CCW, and Pistol with the ability to switch between them of the Chaos marines I dont see why you would pay points and have a skill that is in fact worse.

I also cant see why they would train long and hard for a skill few can master just because the chapter was too cheep to give them Bolt pistols.

Tulun
02-10-2007, 01:32
I don't think so. They made the Chaos with BP because they wanted them to be slightly different than normal marines... which they succeeded doing.

I can imagine True Grit might become cheaper, though, but I doubt it'll disappear. I don't think every Marine is going to get a bp/ccw/bolter (they could have easily done it with Dark Angels or Blood Angels).

Ravenous
02-10-2007, 01:36
I think it will be dead as the choppa and stubborn rule.

Sovereign
02-10-2007, 01:39
If it stays, True Grit will probably be limited to Space Woofs Grey Hunters only.

FateofChaos
02-10-2007, 01:41
and gray knights

silveryfox
02-10-2007, 01:46
I think it will be dead as the choppa and stubborn rule.

Thought the same as soon as I saw the new Chaos dex.

Lionsbane
02-10-2007, 01:48
BA and DA are standard Marines, not True Grit Marines so they didn't need the CCW. They got the Bolt Pistol merely so they could shoot before charging. Grey Knights are easily fixed by giving them another attack, and taking away True Grit. It looks scarier, but works the same. Grey Hunters and any other True Grit normal Marines end up with Bolter, Bolt Pistol and CCW. And poof the need for a Special Rule is gone. This makes GW happy as they are trying to eliminate extraneous rules.

WarEagle
02-10-2007, 02:51
I don't think so, but I do feel like it lost some its valuer because of the CSM.

Lexington
02-10-2007, 02:52
Yes, obviously.

Hellebore
02-10-2007, 03:16
I'm not so sure.

I don't know what reasoning the developers had for giving CSM bolters/pistols/swords, but to me it was a way to show that CSMs are more elite, and better trained than a normal marine (without giving them special rules).

Space Wolves aren't as good as chaos marines, and so would probably still have true grit.

In some ways true grit is better at determining what the unit will do - a CSM can choose to shoot a pistol and charge, or rapid fire and not charge.

True grit means you will always have to rapid fire, because that's all you can do. Being charged is much better if you have true grit because charging gives no bonus.

Either that, or seeing as how they've breached the WS5 marine barrier in the chaos codex, they might go back to 2nd stats and do everything with stats rather than special rules.

I could see them doing something like this:

Lord
WS6 BS5 S4 T4 W3 I5 A3 Ld10 Sv3+
Guard
WS5 BS4 S4 T4 W1 I4 A2 Ld9 Sv3+
Hunter
WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W3 I4 A1 Ld8 Sv3+
Blood Claw
WS4 BS3 S4 T4 W1 I4 A1 Ld8 Sv3+
(with furious charge)
Long Fang
WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W1 I4 A1 Ld10 Sv3+

If they wanted to reflect the wolves with stats rather than special rules...

Hellebore

Sovereign
02-10-2007, 03:46
I don't know what reasoning the developers had for giving CSM bolters/pistols/swords, but to me it was a way to show that CSMs are more elite, and better trained than a normal marine (without giving them special rules).

Space Wolves aren't as good as chaos marines, and so would probably still have true grit.
Agreed.

Combat-wise, a CSM with B&BP&CCW is effectively a SM Veteran with A2 *and* the bonus ability to move / shoot / charge. Very simple and very clean rules-wise. Basic CSM are very good at what they do, in exchange for giving up ATSKNF. It's a good flavor difference, making CSM clearly fightier, where SM are more resilient.

Brother_Falco
02-10-2007, 12:23
This does raise the question of what they're intending to do with Grey Knights if True Grit is on the way out. Giving them a bolt pistol would be a little silly and I can't see the fightiest marines of all losing their second attack.

Captain Micha
02-10-2007, 12:54
Grey Knights will probably, get the bolt pistol, close combat weapon, bolter style approach.

foehammer888
02-10-2007, 13:02
This does raise the question of what they're intending to do with Grey Knights if True Grit is on the way out. Giving them a bolt pistol would be a little silly and I can't see the fightiest marines of all losing their second attack. That's why you simply give them 2 attacks in their profile.

I mean, they are the most elite warriors of mankind, they should probably have the same number of attacks as a DA/BA veteran. Nemisis Force Weapon, Stormbolter, and 2A makes for a very well rounded Grey Knight.

The problem with true grit is it was FAR from being a UNIVERSAL Special Rule. It was only useable by models with bolters (thus limited to imperial/chaos armies only), and even then had an exception. This was further complicated by army special rules (like the fact that only powered armored Grey Knights could use true grit). What resulted was a rule which is easily replaced (by either a bolter, bp, and ccw, or simply 2A), which actually created a fair number of FAQ questions and confusions.

GW is taking a recent aproach with 40k that USRs should actually be Universal and Special. They should be able to apply to anyone, and they should be relatively rare (ie unlike the current SM codex and previous CSM codex, not everyone and their sister should be able to get one). They should probably most commonly occur in the eldar army, as all their troops are highly specialized for a single purpose.

I believe the chaos Bolter/BP/CCW was to show that a chaos marine is a less specialized warrior than a Loyalist marine. While loyalists fight in highly organized, trained, and specialized units (thus get benefits of thinks like ATSKNF and combat squads), chaos units are more similar to a warband. A collection of veteran troops under a greater leader. They are as likely to assault as stand and shoot. They are not quite as cohesive, organized and trained (no ATSKNF, combat squads), but on the plus side are not restricted by that rigid training (thus being more flexible individually.

Space Wolves will truly be interesting, as they have the potential to end up greater than both chaos and loyalist marines. However, will we see the DA/BA trend continue, where army-wide special rules are cut back? Its hard to tell with the SW, as unlike the DA or BA, they are significantly different from a codex chapter.

Foehammer

ReclecteR
02-10-2007, 14:53
I would hate to see GK's getting the BP, CCW, Bolter approach. There would be nothing to show that they are way better than the normak marine. However, giving the Grey Knights an extra attack would also change their play style, as this means they also get another attack when charging. I think that Grey Knights might be the only rule that keeps True Grit, and then that will be taken out of the BGB so as to become unique to GK.

CaptainSenioris
02-10-2007, 15:12
Lord
WS6 BS5 S4 T4 W3 I5 A3 Ld10 Sv3+
Guard
WS5 BS4 S4 T4 W1 I4 A2 Ld9 Sv3+
Hunter
WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W3 I4 A1 Ld8 Sv3+
Blood Claw
WS4 BS3 S4 T4 W1 I4 A1 Ld8 Sv3+
(with furious charge)
Long Fang
WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W1 I4 A1 Ld10 Sv3+

If they wanted to reflect the wolves with stats rather than special rules...

Hellebore

EEK!:eek: I'll have a squad of 10 plaese.


True Grit Start as a Space Wolves only thing, with luck it will return to that, ok Grey Knights can too...

A Grey Knight with a bolt pistol is somethin I just can't visualise

Evilmerlin
02-10-2007, 15:56
Why would a Grey Knight want a Bolt Pistol when he's got a bloody Storm Bolter strapped to his wrist!?

Sovereign
02-10-2007, 19:39
Grey Knights will probably, get the bolt pistol, close combat weapon, bolter style approach.
Nah. The GK are modeled with frickin' Storm Bolters on their arms, and I can't see GW invalidating the models (though they should because the wrist-mounted SBs are very silly).

Rules-wise GK should just get A2, armed with Storm Bolter & CCW which is simpler and more fighty to help justify their inflated points cost.

Grazzy
02-10-2007, 19:45
True grit is not the same as pistol/ccw/bolter. On a model with one basic attack, true grit gives 2 attacks whether youre charging or not. The ccw/bolter.pistol combo gives 2 attacks when charged and 3 attacks on the charge. GK's will probably keep TG, but im not sure about SW.

Tags
02-10-2007, 19:46
I like my wrist mounted storm bolters... Too bad ya can't get the SB bennies, and still a +1 A for charging. ;>

At any rate, the wrist mounted storm bolters are good for the GK, they woldn't look right holding bolters...

Egaeus
02-10-2007, 20:08
Why would a Grey Knight want a Bolt Pistol when he's got a bloody Storm Bolter strapped to his wrist!?

I was reading through this thread and had the exact same thought immediately before I scrolled down and saw your post. :D

As it's already been pointed out there are differences in the different rulesets.

I could potentially see them going back to making True Grit an army-specific rule (since it is getting used less and less) and limiting it to Space Wolves (who use it with basic bolters) and Grey Knights (who use it with Storm Bolters). Personally, I always thought that the wording in the rulebook was a bit clumsy anyways because they do have to break it down further for GKs ("it works with Bolters...oh yeah, and sometimes Storm Bolters...").

Deadnight
02-10-2007, 20:25
Grey Hunters fight with both bolt pistols and close combat weapons AND bolters. they have to upgrade to get the bolter, as the bp and ccw are their main kit from their days as blood claws. they're then honoured with a bolter when they become grey hunters.

the added bolter is a badge of honour.

i can see Space Wolves going the same way as CSM. variable squad sizes and bolt pistols, ccws, and bolters.

chaos units are more similar to a warband. A collection of veteran troops under a greater leader.

replace chaos with space wolves, and the statement is still true.

thedreadpirate
02-10-2007, 23:52
Whatever happens to various armies having it or not, unless everyone loses it I doubt that it'll dissappear off the universal special rules list. Look at witchblades. As far as I know only Eldar have them, and its still a USR.

The_Outsider
03-10-2007, 01:07
USR's are typically common rules that mean the same everywhere.

While only eldar have witchblades, there is nothing to say DE may get them in a future update, now since they qre a USR (much like powerfists and force weapons) I don't need to be a DE expert to know what it does.

I can imagine true grit staying but being barely used, its a USR now for back compatability.

The Dude
03-10-2007, 02:36
In some ways true grit is better at determining what the unit will do - a CSM can choose to shoot a pistol and charge, or rapid fire and not charge.

I have to agree here. True Grit is, to my mind, a defensive skill. It allows you to form a far harder blockade with smaller units. This adds to the differentiation of the roles between Hunters and Tactical Squads. Tacticals are an "all purpose" unit where Hunters are more defensive, leaving the offence to Claws and Fangs.

I'd like to see True Grit stay in any future redux of the SM Codex (as can be seen in my own mad thoughts (http://warseer.com/forums/rules-development-forum/97307-codex-space-marines-redux-version-9-a.html)), as I think it's quite an evocative skill, and one I'd like to see more widely available

zoodog
03-10-2007, 05:33
I guess the main reason it will end up going is that its a complex rule where a complex rule is no longer needed. I always disliked how limited it was, cant even use combi weapons with it (maybe if it applyed to other 2 handed rapid fire weapons)

I think the best evidence is that Plague marines lost it

grizzly ruin
03-10-2007, 05:52
I'm not so sure.

I don't know what reasoning the developers had for giving CSM bolters/pistols/swords, but to me it was a way to show that CSMs are more elite, and better trained than a normal marine (without giving them special rules).

It looks like more of a counterbalance for ATSKNF & heavy weapon restrictions (i.e. no combat squad type rule) imo.

Either that, or seeing as how they've breached the WS5 marine barrier in the chaos codex, they might go back to 2nd stats and do everything with stats rather than special rules.



They should probably most commonly occur in the eldar army, as all their troops are highly specialized for a single purpose.

That's kind of silly, no?

They cease to be Universal Special Rules and become Eldar Special Rules.:angel:

zodgrim
03-10-2007, 05:55
I think that it will slowly fade away as more Marines have a pistol and hand weapon as standard equipment. Maybe it will stay alive in the Inquisition armies.

The Dude
03-10-2007, 07:26
I think that it will slowly fade away as more Marines have a pistol and hand weapon as standard equipment. Maybe it will stay alive in the Inquisition armies.

I would like to point out that the ONLY Marines to have Bolter, Bolt Pistol and CCW are CHAOS Marines.

When you understand this, you can see that True Gruit does still have a place.

mistformsquirrel
03-10-2007, 07:37
I like my wrist mounted storm bolters... Too bad ya can't get the SB bennies, and still a +1 A for charging. ;>

At any rate, the wrist mounted storm bolters are good for the GK, they woldn't look right holding bolters...

Agreed. I *love* the wrist-mounted Stormbolters. They have a very specific "flare" that other more ordinary weapons just lack imho.

2A would be good too, since Grey Knights damn well AUGHT to be tough. If nothing else, for the huge amount of points a single one takes up! <,< I mean jeez, they cost more than any single cult trooper in the new Chaos Codex!

This does however bring up an interesting oddity - what about The Shrouding? Would that go the way of the dodo as well? Its an army special rule, so it *might* stay... but it might just poof too.

If it went, I'd like to see some sort of Invulnerable save on Grey Knights. I like that they cost a boatload, and are individually very powerful, but I have to say, I hate that they're generally as vulnerable as Joe Blow Astartes. Perhaps a 5+ Inv save would be in order? (Some may scoff at it, but then look at the new Thousand Sons! AP3 bolters, 4+ Inv save! Even a Grey Knight can't match that exactly, and the Thousand Sons individually cost less! (I do grant though, the Sorcerer makes even the cost of a Justicar look small)

BDJV
03-10-2007, 07:47
Grey Hunters fight with both bolt pistols and close combat weapons AND bolters. they have to upgrade to get the bolter, as the bp and ccw are their main kit from their days as blood claws. they're then honoured with a bolter when they become grey hunters.

the added bolter is a badge of honour.

i can see Space Wolves going the same way as CSM. variable squad sizes and bolt pistols, ccws, and bolters.

chaos units are more similar to a warband. A collection of veteran troops under a greater leader.

replace chaos with space wolves, and the statement is still true.

As a long time Wolf player I hope that this becomes true. :evilgrin:

Egaeus
03-10-2007, 14:24
2A would be good too, since Grey Knights damn well AUGHT to be tough. If nothing else, for the huge amount of points a single one takes up! <,< I mean jeez, they cost more than any single cult trooper in the new Chaos Codex!

This does however bring up an interesting oddity - what about The Shrouding? Would that go the way of the dodo as well? Its an army special rule, so it *might* stay... but it might just poof too.

If it went, I'd like to see some sort of Invulnerable save on Grey Knights. I like that they cost a boatload, and are individually very powerful, but I have to say, I hate that they're generally as vulnerable as Joe Blow Astartes. Perhaps a 5+ Inv save would be in order? (Some may scoff at it, but then look at the new Thousand Sons! AP3 bolters, 4+ Inv save! Even a Grey Knight can't match that exactly, and the Thousand Sons individually cost less! (I do grant though, the Sorcerer makes even the cost of a Justicar look small)

Hmm...just thinking that with the new paradigm of units with multiple weapons what they could simply do is say that the NFW "counts as" a pair of close combat weapons and the fact that they are carrying a SB becomes moot (consider that some SM characters can have a pair of LC and a SB).

Army Special Rules are still Army Special Rules. The whole point of the USRs was that some rules were getting recycled, but not consistently. So making them "universal' simply meant there was one version that everyone used.

I agree with the idea that with the new Chaos codex it might be nice if GW took another look at the Grey Knights if they ever get around to doing a new Daemonhunters codex.