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View Full Version : Are the Vampires and the Dark Elves too similiar (in terms of imagery)?



Ktotwf
02-10-2007, 02:02
I have wondered this often.

Obviously, in terms of backstory/playstyle/ etc they are very different.

But their imagery strikes me as very similiar. The same could possibly be said of Dark Elves + Chaos

Agoz
02-10-2007, 02:16
Well, to me dark elves are more motivated by revenge and evil for evil's sake to me. While vampire counts have more a forbidden knowledge, grave dust smell, don't bother me mortal feel. Also dark elves seem newer and more innovative than vampire counts, who have a more set in their ways-ancient evil approach.

If I had to point out the similarities I would say that lahmians seem to be very similar to witch elves, especially Neferata, whose blood rites are very similar indeed.

As to the chaos and dark elves thing? The only similarity I see is that they are both "evil" armies.

The SkaerKrow
02-10-2007, 05:19
Not even slightly. Vampire Counts are surrounded by legions of disorganized corpses in various stages of decay. Dark Elves are regimented and elegantly brutal in presentation. Beyond the fact that the two armies both heavily favor the color black, they don't really share many similarities.

Neodysseus
02-10-2007, 07:21
PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF SIGMAR!! NO MORE! :cries:

Look.

Good guys wear white hats.

Bad guys wear black hats.

There are a few good guys.

There are more bad guys.

Everyone else is free to choose any shade of grey hat they prefer.

Voltaire
02-10-2007, 09:54
The overriding problem with making anything 'evil' is that the imagery of them is going to be the same because of the nature of the villain itself. Darkness surrounds villains, its never really been in any doubt at all, and to not shroud the Dark Elves, Chaos, the Vampire Counts and even the Chaos Dwarfs in imagery which others would consider a bit macabre is a fallacy. It is the detail of these races which makes them different and which sets them apart in the eyes of the gamer.

These minute details are the ones which draw us to the races as gamers and while the artwork looks similar, we can see beyond simple pictures and see which driving force is the one we can most associate with.

The detail of the pictures can also reflect this as you see hordes of muscular conans, elven evils or the shambling undead, you'll immediately think one of them is the coolest and look into the army s a result of that. Detail is the difference which divides.

Neodysseus
02-10-2007, 09:59
The overriding problem with making anything 'evil' is that the imagery of them is going to be the same because of the nature of the villain itself. Darkness surrounds villains, its never really been in any doubt at all, and to not shroud the Dark Elves, Chaos, the Vampire Counts and even the Chaos Dwarfs in imagery which others would consider a bit macabre is a fallacy. It is the detail of these races which makes them different and which sets them apart in the eyes of the gamer.

These minute details are the ones which draw us to the races as gamers and while the artwork looks similar, we can see beyond simple pictures and see which driving force is the one we can most associate with.

The detail of the pictures can also reflect this as you see hordes of muscular conans, elven evils or the shambling undead, you'll immediately think one of them is the coolest and look into the army s a result of that. Detail is the difference which divides.

QFT, as this man is "on point"

bhusus
02-10-2007, 16:33
I don't find their imagery all that similar at all really. While all the 'evil' armies are Chaos-inspired (if I remember all my fluff correctly), this is where the similarities really end. Dark Elves live in a cold climate which reflects their bitterness towards their High Elf cousins and their primary goal is one of revenge (as previously mentioned). Vampires (Von Carstein, Strigoi and Necrarch) seem immersed in a kind of swamp/bog environment, following with the whole 'wet' undead feel. They aren't nurgle, however, but there is a strong element of rotting involved. Blood Dragons and Lahmians seem even more separated. Lhamians involve infiltration and their armies would better be represented by an empire army. Blood Dragons are more often loners seeking honour but those who do form up in armies are better represented by Bretonnians. Chaos is even more different in that it represents an antithesis of Order and exists to remove it in the Old World and eventually all over the world.

ZeroTwentythree
02-10-2007, 16:44
Good guys wear white hats.

Bad guys wear black hats.

There are a few good guys.

There are more bad guys.

Everyone else is free to choose any shade of grey hat they prefer.



More accurately GW version:

Good guys wear spikes and skulls.

Bad guys wear spikes and skulls.

Everyone else is free to choose shades of... uh... spikes and skulls...

RipFlag
02-10-2007, 17:01
I personally think that theres is almost a larger continuity between skaven and Dark elves, both had assassins, both have a reputation for being ruthless. Their playing styles are fairly opposite, but really Skaven seem like Dark Elves but just Hoard style and with fur.

Vampire counts, with their kick ass characters, and shambling hoards, some how dont compare to the delicate dark elves. Now the lahmia do have some huges similarities to Witch Elves/Morathia, both being beautiful and seductive yet very dangerous

Angel of the Black Parade
02-10-2007, 17:04
Only if its Slanneshi Elves, and even then I notice something different... maybe its the fact Elves look nothing like Chaos Warriors....

Shades of spikes and skulls, lol

DarkLord Of Naggaroth
02-10-2007, 17:07
I dont think they're very simular, but saying that, I know nothing about VC
VC are just wierd and vappireish, whereas dark elves are sophisticatedly cruel and cool.

DesertDirge
02-10-2007, 18:13
I wouldn't call VC "evil" in the slightest bit, merely misunderstood. I wouldn't call O&G's evil either.

Glorfindel
02-10-2007, 18:24
I wouldn't call VC "evil" in the slightest bit, merely misunderstood. I wouldn't call O&G's evil either.

I wonder how you'll think about them when they're sucking the blood out of your body :p ... Misunderstood, right? :D

DarkLord Of Naggaroth
02-10-2007, 18:34
I wonder how you'll think about them when they're sucking the blood out of your body :p ... Misunderstood, right? :D

lol
QFT
what would you call evil?

DesertDirge
02-10-2007, 18:53
Like they have a choice!?? It's either drink or die. :) I'm not saying they are good guys... but they do what they have to do to survive. That's why some Human live among them.

DE on the other hand don't need to enslave people and murder people to survive.. they do it cause they like to... not cause they need to.

I'm not saying some Vamps aren't evil.. but the majority... no.

bhusus
02-10-2007, 19:01
I get where DesertDirge is coming from on this. If I were to classify VC in WFB I'd probably put them in a neutral category - I think for WFB better descriptors are Order, Chaos, Neutral, as even Lizardmen aren't really all that 'good' - a Slann basically destroyed the Dwarfs, another Order race, very much responsible for keeping O&G and Skaven at bay, seemingly on a whim. While this could have been to offset Chaos with O&G and eventually humans, the growth of Skaven forces seems to counteract that argument, especially since the Lizardmen and Skaven are such hated enemies of one another (Lustria book).

gorenut
02-10-2007, 20:02
Great, I can quickly see this thread becoming another Who/What is Evil thread. I think we shouldn't go there.

bhusus
02-10-2007, 20:29
Well to get us back on track, the similarities can be traced to their initial Chaotic subversion, but not really any more than that. In 40K however, I think the Dark Eldar are meant to be a fusion of the two - vampires and dark elves, possibly based on someone seeing it the same way as the original poster.

Ktotwf
02-10-2007, 21:04
Vampire exist as a sort of Anti-Chaos force though - I'm not sure why it would be justfied to call them "Chaos Derived"

Admiral Samuel Eden
02-10-2007, 23:07
Theyre nothing like each other. Ones a dead (cool as) blood sucker with magic and big swords with loads of skelatons running around for him the others a pointy ear in black armour with a curved sword and high heels who sneaks about shooting people with crossbows and taking slaves. Vampires dont have slaves, they would eat them.

bhusus
02-10-2007, 23:17
Vampire exist as a sort of Anti-Chaos force though - I'm not sure why it would be justfied to call them "Chaos Derived"

I don't remember exactly but I think Nagash derived the ability to become immortal from a Daemon or some other minion of Chaos and it was then passed along via the Lhamians to eventually the other bloodlines...something like that...so the source was Chaos, not necessarily their own intentions...in fact Chaos seems to be the source for all of the 'evil' armies in WFB.

StormCrow
03-10-2007, 00:30
But nagash now wants to block off the chaos gates, or so i hear. It doesn't get more anti chaos than that...in fact you could say he's the ultimate force of good!

RipFlag
03-10-2007, 02:30
Or rather that he is a champion of order :P, i mean he may be doing a "good" thing but i doubt his ethics would moral in any way just knowing his reputation.

But is that not a catch 22? If he managed to close the gates, would that not also cut off presumably much of his power/magic, since almost all magic comes from the Chaos Warp....

Ktotwf
03-10-2007, 02:33
It is best not to think of Vampires and Chaos as Order and Disorder, but perhaps to think of Chaos as Change and Vampires as stagnation.

Halelel
03-10-2007, 04:13
Honestly, if you want to compare Dark Elf society with another in the Warhammer World, the most similar would be the Chaos Dwarfs.

Both societies function only thru the raiding of other civilizations for slaves. Both societies have more slaves than actual citizens and the entire way of life centers around slaves and the slave trade. Both worship a diety that requires sacrifices, with CD throwing the slaves in lava (not very original, IMO) and DE Witch Elves teasing the male slaves before bathing in their blood to be rejuvenated (awesomeness, IMO).

There's not to say there aren't differences though, too many to point out in fact.

In all honesty, I think that this may be one of the main reasons that GW is reluctant to do CDs again, mainly because they don't want two similar cultures that are seen as the "slave-raiders / traders"

zak
03-10-2007, 21:31
Hmmmm. Not at all. Totally different culture, fighting style I would say lifestyle, but Vampires have an unlifestyle!
I think you need to read more Dark Elf background to know exactly what they are like. You would then see that they are prettyy much chalk and cheese.