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Neodysseus
02-10-2007, 09:53
Newb with 2500pts., I enjoy the "hobby" and fluff as much as I'm enjoying learning rules, strategy and tactics. I don't want any strong :cheese: , just an army that capitalizes on what I'm willing to take. My opponents run the gambit of races and are like-minded conisseurs of the :cheese:

I would like nod's toward either Dwarfs OR Wood Elves bearing my criteria in mind. I'm looking for opinions on my options, strengths to capitalize on and weaknesses that I'll have to watch for exploitation. If you'd like to provide sample lists or point out units to covet or avoid like plague, by all means, please do so and tell me why.

Having said, that if it's Dwarfs here is what I will NOT take...
Thunderers
Cannons
Organ Guns
Gyrocopters
Basically anything not "firearms" is fair game. Quarrellers and rangers are all good and oddly enough, I will consider the Flame Cannon.
If it's Wood Elves, I won't take...
Branchwraiths
Eagles
Warhawk Riders
More than 1 Treeman
More than 2 Treekin
More than 2 units (size is open for debate) of Dryads.

Thank you, in advance.

The SkaerKrow
02-10-2007, 10:42
Why no Warhawks? They're not a gamebreaker unit by any means. They can be wicked if you know how to use them, but they're no where near as powerful as the thrice damned Pegasus Knights of the Bretonnians.

Given the choices, I'd lean towards Wood Elves. I dislike Dwarves for the same reason that I dislike Skaven, very little variety. Combined arms forces are my bread and butter, which is why I like Elves, Empire and (to a lesser extent), Greenskins.

If I were at home I'd put forth a sample list, but sadly I'm currently on my work PC.

Neodysseus
02-10-2007, 10:50
Yes, I agree, work is always sad isn't it...:(
But no worries, thanks for your input! And as to why no warhawks, hmm. I hate flying:confused::D

The SkaerKrow
02-10-2007, 11:01
Fair enough. My Warhawk Riders are going to be galavanting about on Fell Bats. And also, they won't be surfing.

Neodysseus
02-10-2007, 11:14
Birds perch and birds poo (as do bats) and neither elves nor spirit endowed trees appreciate that. Heh, but in all seriousness, with all the great models to start off with, I don't see any reason to rush into conversions because those birds and riders are *****, imho.

Now, the Forest Dragon+the Wood Elf Lord on the Horse...I see good things happening between those boxes at some point.;)

Dodgy Ed
02-10-2007, 11:19
It really depends on your playing style, as both wood elves and dwarfs can suffer a bit from one trick pony syndrome, with Woodies you've got to pick your fights and use combined arms tactics, whereas dwarfs are so static people will often pick your fights for you. Having said that an infantry heavy dwarf army is a very scary prospect to face. It looks like you need to decide if you want to play a manoeuvrable Guerrilla force or a Romanesque Infantry formation. Both are very valid armies and almost perfect opposites.

As a dwarf player I obviously lean towards the short hairy ones for a number of reasons, the primary one being the models, there are twenty years of fantastically characterful models out there that all look as if they've come from the same era. Check out the link in my sig for about half of the army.

As for army lists a good solid core of warriors backed up by big units of elite infantry and Crossbowdwarves is always a good start, if you back this up with a leavening of Bolt throwers and Stone throwers you've got a good capable (but not :cheese:) force

A note on Crossbowdwarves giving them shields makes them very good second string infantry. Ws4, T4 and a 4+save makes them very hard to shift for small flanking units of skirmishers or light cavalry and indeed it's not beyond the realms of possibility that they'll hold up a fully ranked unit

A quick précis of the strengths and weaknesses of dwarfs the way your looking at playing them

Strengths:
Lots of infantry, by avoiding expensive war machines you'll be fielding a lot of T4 troops with a nice high leadership and all of which have a nice high WS

Combat; this is where your army wants to be, keeps it from getting shot and although you average dwarf warrior might not kill much (that's what Thanes etc are for) with high toughness and 3+save from the front they're not going to die much either.

Elite Infantry, your average dwarf warrior may be tough to kill but Iron Breakers are even worse with a 2+ save and a better strength, so they might actually kill things as well. But of you really want to dish out some hurt there's always Hammerers with str6, the only problem is ensuring they survive long enough to strike as they have great weapons.

Shooting, Crossbowdwarves are good but not stunning missile troops due to an average BS but this is more than made up for by their combat punch, and rocking in at only 120points for 10 with shields they're nice and cheap. Warmachines are also a lot more resilient than you might think as the crews are stubborn, so if you can lock an engineer in a challenge with a unit champion its quite possible to tie up an enemy unit for quite a while.

Weaknesses:
There are two major weakness;

Manoeuvrability, this one's the key, you can march a mighty 6'' this means a number of troops can walk as quick as you can march. Although this is somewhat offset by the ability to always march even when 8'' away from the enemy this is still a crippling factor against a canny opponent. Fundamentally it means your opponent will probably picking and choosing their fights. To counter this you can use the artillery and missile troops to harass people and force them to charge by making combat seem like a safer option. You can also use miners to harass flanks and war machines.

Magic. A true bugbear for dwarves, against a competent magic heavy army you will have trouble, there are now a number of spells that are truly game breaking against dwarfs, the only thing to do is suck it up really, Runesmiths help offset the problem a little (as well as being quite handy in combat) but the only way to really ensure magic doesn't cause untold pain is to kill the mages; never an easy proposal and one I still haven't mastered.

The SkaerKrow
02-10-2007, 11:22
While I do like the Warhawks themselves, those Riders do stink outloud.

I'm better at converting than I am at painting, so that's how I put a touch of identity on my army. That, and I had an idea for evil Wood Elves a while back, primarily fueled by the idea of running Spider Centaurs for my Wild Riders. And it all kind of...went bonkers from there. At least the Glade Guard and Dryads will look "right" (only because I can't bring myself to buy that many metal Daemonettes to convert up as Dryads :p).

Skitter-Squeek
02-10-2007, 11:34
I dislike Dwarves for the same reason that I dislike Skaven, very little variety.



Given your Vast Experience In Skaven I would Love to hear the Lack of "Variety" you so speak of. If in Lacking You meant The most Diverse Army Selection Available to a Person then I Misunderstood you and am Sorry, (although very unlikely you meant that)



Skitter Squeek

Atzcapotzalco
02-10-2007, 11:47
I'd say you can put together a very good dwarf list without "firearms", and even to an extent without missile fire at all. As well as missile fire, they have very solid fighting infantry, with high toughness, heavy armour, and excellent leadership-actually I'd regard a pure gunline army as something of a waste of their fighting potential. One thing to remember is that this also applies to your missile units-give your crossbow dwarfs shields or great weapons, a few ranks and a standard and they are far from defenceless if it comes to a fight. Which with only movement three units to protect them from fast moving opponents, it very likely will. Movement is the biggest weakness-it's easy to get units isolated, very hard to redeploy them from a bad position, and of coarse you are in danger of flanking attacks. It helps a lot to have even a relatively small amount of missile fire to pick on flanking units or units avoiding melee, and crossbows, bolt throwers and stone throwers are all more than adequate. As for the flame cannon-easily my favourite warmachine, able to cripple a unit in one round, inflicting panic tests even on a glancing hit, and due to the length of the template a lot longer ranged than the maximum guess suggests. Also only dependant on a single artillery dice roll going well. Other indispensable units are ironbreakers, which with their gromril armour are my foremost fighting unit, and the battle standard bearer-there are some *very* powerful runic combinations available if you have a spare couple of hundred points, but he's just as good and a fair bit less costly as a fighting thane with a plain battle standard as an extra bonus. The other important thing to consider regarding their slow movement is deployment-your fighting units should be close enough to support each other, and keep in mind that your missile units can't move and shoot, or for the crossbows even turn and shoot. The master rune of challenge is a big help, allowing you to force one unit to fight or run-and since its range is determined by an opponent's ability to charge, most potent against exactly the same fast manouvrable enemies which can usually avoid ever having to face your infantry in combat. You should, however, reconcile yourself to a more defensive style-dwarfs will never be a fast moving, dynamic army.

Neodysseus
02-10-2007, 12:40
EXCELLENT Ed and Atz! Thanks so much, that's exactly the type of information I was hoping for.
So, I can build a Dwarf army without Thorek or gunlines or new-fangled warmachines and expect to be very competitive using my noggin.:evilgrin:
I just wanted some affirmation that I could field a more "traditional" fantasy Dwarf army and thank you for providing that.
Three questions if I could, if I take bolt or grudge throwers or even flame cannons as fire support for my anvil...do I use Slayers or Ironbreakers as the anvil or upgraded Warriors or Longbeards? Am I correct to presume the hammer should then be the opposite and that full command should go in my anvil and jacked up characters in my hammers? Which brings my last question...who among Dwarves can harrass my quarry toward the anvil with such a slow hammer? Quarrellers? Rangers?

WLBjork
02-10-2007, 13:49
Oh yes, quite often I will field a Dwarf Army with no/minimal shooting (no more than 20 Quarrellers), and it is very effective. Anvil of Doom doesn't come out until 3K, and Thorek will not be taken before 5K (not actually played that big, so he's not appeared in my force yet).

One thing that I will suggest is a few units of 10 Dwarf Warriors with shields acting as flank guards to bigger units. If your opponent isn't smart enough to engage them first, they may well be nicely positioned to flank charge him :D.

As for harassers, personally I'd go with Quarrellers. I consider Rangers a little too pricey for use in a battle, especially as they can't be positioned too far forwards of your line (unless you are prepared to sacrifice them).

Dodgy Ed
02-10-2007, 13:58
Ok, in the type of army you're going for I'd suggest one Stone thrower (with rune of re reolling scatter) for when you need to make something dead, as remember although the template is only Str4 (the hole is str 8) it still ignores armour saves and does D6 wounds, and with the rune it's magical (watch those spirit hosts cry). Then about four Bolt Throwers to harass the enemy (cheap as chips and 2for1) and you've still only spent about 300 points max

I would also be tempted by the flame cannon as it is rare as such it doesn't compete for those all important special choices.

Which brings us onto the anvil, for an Anvil you just can't beat a big (25+) unit of Iron Breakers (lead by characters if possible); cheap and so tough to kill. These guys can rack up static combat res like no ones business, especially if they have a battle standard bearer with them, even worse if you give him the master rune that causes fear:evilgrin:. I'd suggest supporting these with further big (20+) units of heavy armoured warriors interspersed with smaller (10) units of Longbeards with great weapons. The idea being that you take the charge with the warriors, hold and then counter charge with your Ws5 str6 Longbeards; effectively using the longbeards like a weaker empire detachment. The bonus re-rolls for panic I've found is absolutly invaluable, as without fail even at ld9/10 my dwarfs always run like scared girls.

Onto the final part of your question how do you harass the enemy? Not easy, I'd avoid rangers as they can no longer march through woods and stick to Crossbowdwarves, in small units, to keep maximum points effectiveness; also I wouldn't give them standards, to easy for the enemy to capture. Another good harassment choice is miners, maybe fifteen or so, as they can march on from the back/side of the board and threaten flanks or rears (oooer missus:p)

<edit> not only was I beaten to the punch by WLB I've also accidently managed to Araldite my arm to the desk while typing that reply! say it with me D'OH!

Neodysseus
02-10-2007, 15:12
D'OH:D

Thanks so much fellas, really, and especially to Ed and WL. I'm indebted to you sirs. I've got quite alot of food for thought on Dwarves, now to buy the book and give back my loaner:p

Any takers like this on Wood Elves?

bhusus
02-10-2007, 16:10
Look I love the Dwarfs as they are the only WFB army I have and I'm currently at 5000+ points with them. They have a lot of great models (as previously mentioned), the many plastics can be converted if you are into that (I am) and even without gunpowder war machines, a fully T4 army will rile your opponents and that in and of itself is worth it.
That being said, there is one major factor to keep in mind. I am starting a second army (and probably a third) as I love mounted models, monsters and other weird aberrations. Someone earlier mentioned they dislike dwarfs for the same reason they dislike Skaven - well even Skaven have more variety in the sense that the whole army is not infantry with 3" movement - such as Rat Ogres and Rat Packs, etc. etc. The dwarf army is great but sometimes you see other armies with all their variety and you feel like you wouldn't mind a piece of that action. By limiting your choices, your whole army will be infantry blocks which can look good and intimidating but which has severe movement limitations especially for dwarfs - miners and rangers, as well as the one banner that gives free movement can help this along, but like I said it comes down to variety. The fact that the army has no magic is not a negative thing but sometimes you want to be involved in that phase.

bena800
02-10-2007, 16:17
i do wood elvs my self and i think u should try them out u might think that due to the lack of armourthere not that gd but if with there imperasive bow fire u can bring even the hardiest units in the game down also treemen are a woodelvs best friend they are strong and can take a lot of punishment and deal it out so only one u must be crazy in my 2000pts army im gunna do i take two of them to protect my flanks any way i hope that helps u

Coragus
02-10-2007, 17:30
I've run Dwarfs for years, and about a year ago, I started running Wood Elf forces too while I slowly built them up. I can say that it's more difficult to run a WE force, but the rewards for good play are great.

I love the way that the Glade Riders bait enemy units into coming close enough to be charged by Dryads. On the other hand, there's something very satisfying about blowing Chosen Chaos Knights out of their saddles with a well-placed cannon ball. Which one of these scenarios matches your playing style? Go with that force.

bhusus
02-10-2007, 17:50
I love the way that the Glade Riders bait enemy units into coming close enough to be charged by Dryads. On the other hand, there's something very satisfying about blowing Chosen Chaos Knights out of their saddles with a well-placed cannon ball. Which one of these scenarios matches your playing style? Go with that force.

I think he specifically stated no cannons if he played dwarfs and no dryads if he played wood elves...so neither seems to be his playing style...

Rider-Of-Kurnous
02-10-2007, 19:40
With your opinions I would say wood elves. My friend plays a mainly dwarf warrior force, and it is terrible. He hasnt won many games with it at all. When he however takes more guns, he still loses to me! (just not as much)

With the elves I would take 2 units of 5 glade riders and 2(?) units of glade gaurd for a start.

Hope that helps

Rider-

thorgrim
03-10-2007, 01:16
For the dwarfs you should never believe that M3 is a disadvantage. For the uints protecting your flanks the oathstone is a huge leveler (i've seen off a combined charge of chaos chosen and chaos knights with my ironbreakers using one). Strollaz rune (free move before the first turn for all units within 12") combined with rangers can leave a big block of dwarf infantry in charge range (even dwarf charge range) of the enemy on turn 1. And my personal favorite of combining miners (with a steam drill to make sure they turn up) with a anvil of doom can have a unit chewing through the enemies back line on turn 2. Dwarfs don't need firearms its just that they are a lot of fun to use.

Neodysseus
03-10-2007, 04:27
The flame cannon and bolt and grudge throwers are options I'm open to and even looking at for Dwarves. As for Wood Elves, I will definitely take 1 Treeman, 2 Treekin and 2 units (again, size of said units is open for debate) of Dryads as I said in my first post.
I'm opposed to Branchwraiths because from my understanding (and bear with me here because I don't have a Wood Elf book at hand) taking them requires you to have a "forest spirit army", something I have absolutely no interest in.
Overall, my ideas are either (maybe both eventually) a "traditional" Dwarf army with more bodies than machines and I'm set on machines that do not use "gunpowder"...eg; no guns. The flame cannon is the exception as a continuous stream of fire could and probably would be achieved by using a combustible liquid and pilot light (greek fire anyone?), this is fluffy...to me. Or a WOOD ELF, Wood Elf army with no more than the minimal neccessary support from forest spirits ie; 1 Treeman, 2 Treekin and 2 units of Dryads (concensus seems to be units of 8) or some combination thereof depending on the point allowance of the game up to 2500 initially with the vast majority of the points allocated to...ELVES. I don't think I can be any clearer regarding what I'm looking for help with. I've got enough information to green-light my Dwarves, and thanks again to all those who so graciously enlightened me. Now I'm seeking the same kind of education concerning Wood Elves.

bhusus
03-10-2007, 04:48
Sorry I thought you said no Dryads not Branchwraiths...my bad...

Neodysseus
03-10-2007, 04:52
No worries:)

WLBjork
03-10-2007, 10:15
Which brings us onto the anvil, for an Anvil you just can't beat a big (25+) unit of Iron Breakers (lead by characters if possible); cheap and so tough to kill. These guys can rack up static combat res like no ones business, especially if they have a battle standard bearer with them, even worse if you give him the master rune that causes fear:evilgrin:. I'd suggest supporting these with further big (20+) units of heavy armoured warriors interspersed with smaller (10) units of Longbeards with great weapons. The idea being that you take the charge with the warriors, hold and then counter charge with your Ws5 str6 Longbeards; effectively using the longbeards like a weaker empire detachment. The bonus re-rolls for panic I've found is absolutly invaluable, as without fail even at ld9/10 my dwarfs always run like scared girls.

I have to say that personally, for the Anvil I'd rather use Hammerers, led by a Lord and with the BSB in there as well. Stubborn on Ld9 with a re-roll, immune to Fear and Terror - they're going nowhere.

Either way, a careful selection of Runes means it's possible to start with 8 for combat resolution :D (3 ranks, 2 banners, 3 runes)!

Skitter-Squeek
03-10-2007, 10:34
Anvil is so Scary in the hands of a good general. That is my Number one Feared War Machine to play against. But dude Go Combat Dwarfs, Tactical and challenging, and when you win it is that much Sweeter.:)


Skitter Squeek

Neodysseus
04-10-2007, 04:29
Alright the decision has been made. I'm starting with Wood Elves:D

When I'm happy with my painting and grasp of their strategem up to 2000pts or so, then I'll begin Dwarves and learn, seemingly, the polar opposite. Wish me luck!
And btw, I've changed my opinion of Forest Spirits somewhat. More dryads, treemen and kin might not be such a bad thing. Still don't like the birds.

bhusus
04-10-2007, 04:31
You seemed convinced about dwarfs earlier so if you don't mind my asking, what finally made the decision for you?

Neodysseus
04-10-2007, 05:32
Sure. Well, I wasn't convinced, there were just more people giving more information on Dwarves and I was trying to show my appreciation. From the time I started seriously looking at playing WFB I quickly narrowed down the armies I was interested in to Dwarves, Wood and Dark Elves, Orcs and Goblins and Tomb Kings. And fwiw, I'm still interested in all of them, but I have to start somewhere and I've always been pointy-eared at heart and further Wood Elves are pretty stable in the way of models and updates at the moment and no one in my small group of friends that play are playing Wood Elves. Taking all those into consideration, my decision pretty much made itself.
When I've amassed 2000pts or so of Wood Elves, finished them to my satisfaction and gotten well on my way to directing them on a battlefield, I'll come back to the drawing board for a 2nd army. I'll have an army that I equate to "good guys" (I know they're not good per se but being xenophobic and vicious when backed into a corner are more passable for good when you're attractive and just want to be left alone), so the next army probably won't be Dwarves, but more likely Dark Elves if their update and new models are finished, Orcs n' Gobbos or Tomb Kings if not.

bhusus
04-10-2007, 05:58
I remember when my buddies and I started playing we all made a concious decision to not play the same armies and right off the bat it provided us with such a good variety, back when we were still six: High Elves, Orcs and Goblins, Lizardmen, Dark Elves, Chaos (Khorne) and of course my Dwarfs. One of the guys was recently starting a Wood Elf army but since we've been effectively reduced to three, we really don't play him...or hear from him...much.

Neodysseus
04-10-2007, 06:04
You got off to a bigger start than I am, having five other friends. It can be a bummer when times change and people move on before you're ready for them to. I'm following your "new players" thread btw and I think if you make yourself and the hobby available enough you'll gather a new friend and opponent soon enough.

bhusus
04-10-2007, 06:12
I have one friend who I'm sure I can convince just because he likes hanging out with me and the other guys - which is a big part of the reason I still play - but I know he absolutely cannot afford the hobby at all. We all game in the small town we grew up in but we're all split up - two of the guys still live there and I live about 30 min away so I'm close, my brother lives about an hour away but he's a resident so not a lot of time though he plans on moving back 'home', the other 2 are brothers (not mine) as well but one lives 1.5-2h away and doesn't have a car whereas his brother is only 10 min away but doesn't have a license...so its kind of a pain to get together and play and it seems in retrospect that we wasted a lot of potential opportunities when we were all around. Its odd, because I think warseer is a good place to get to know someone before you play them but then there's the matter of geography.

CountZero
07-10-2007, 21:06
In many ways Dwarves and Woold Elves are tactical opposites. While Dwarfes are made for steady, heavy block-play, Wood elves are the exact opposite of that. They feature light, agile and skirmishy units with a great deal of finesse. Both aremies are playable very well, but they are totally different personalities.

If you like to:
Charge head on in a solid unwavering line, supported by guns and ammo, you are the dwarf. Maneuvers to you are sissy play and battles are won by straight clas.

If you like to:
Spread out, hide, harass, sneak, fire, run and dance around your opponent to queue up for a concerted attack only to dissolve your battle line once more and elude, you are the wood elf. Maneuvers to you are essential and brute force is something you think is for Ogres.

This is as far as i can go without acutally talking about the armies in detail, and many would argue that the dwarfes are not that slow. Dont be fooled, they are. The main downfall to the Wood elves would be their fragility and thir being lighter on the "head on charge" department, meaing you will HAVE to come up with a plan if you want to win. For dwarfes its deploy, shoot, walk, shoot,walk,shoot,walk,shoot,walk,shoot,combat, end of game.

:)

bhusus
09-10-2007, 04:58
For dwarfes its deploy, shoot, walk, shoot,walk,shoot,walk,shoot,walk,shoot,combat, end of game.

And most of that walking isn't the dwarfs...