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LictorIntheGrass
02-10-2007, 14:45
...it cost to much. Way way too much. FW makes some pretty cool stuff I give them that. I wish I could buy their stuff. The problem is that FW never established a base in the US (better shipping/access) nor do they mass produce. I find it funny that they don't expand their operations, theirs obviously a demand for the models. I find it absurd that they're a luxury item within a already expensive SPECIALTY game. So what's the point of them? I've only know one person my entire life to get FW, even then he has to much money for his own good. Its like they are making stuff, putting it on a boat that won't ever make it to shore, as the saying goes. At least thats my point of view.

bhusus
02-10-2007, 14:53
The point of them is to provide 'luxury' items in a specialty game, as you already mentioned...I personally find them highly useful as inspiration for conversions as I already have a hard time justifying the money I spend on GW goods that I won't even consider FW. And they do make some beautiful minis for those people who have the money and are willing to indulge themselves. Also, as cool as your name is, you're giving away your position...which is something a lictor only does when its time to strike...though I guess this could be considered your attack...

Leunam
02-10-2007, 15:06
Regardless of how expensive you may think they are, they still have a large customer base. It's not for everyone, though.

These complaint threads need to be cut down, although they are nowhere near as bad as the Chaos threads.

DarthSte
02-10-2007, 15:12
I have 3 40K armies. I have Forge World models or components in all 3 forces. My main 2 opponants both use FW stuff regularly. I understand that postage cost to the US and the rest of the world is expensive, and maybe if they did produce models to demand in the US as well as UK it would be better for you. But I have no problems with their prices. If a Defiler is worth 35, then a Thunderbolt is most certainly worth 75.

Just my thoughts.

boogle
02-10-2007, 15:15
As has been said, FW is luxury items for hardcore gamers, who want to add interesting stuff to their standard armies, if you don't want to buy the stuff, there are places on the net that allow you to make the kits they do, our of card/paper etc, and they don't look that bad either, although being a lazy git, i just buy from FW

CaptainSenioris
02-10-2007, 15:20
They give free shipping if you really go nuts and buy something really expensive so the postage shouldn't sting you too badly, get together with a few folk and put a group order in to cut down on shipping costs.

There's a lot of cool stuff on there that is relatively cheap, Terminator shoulder pads and brass etchings for instance.

Brother Loki
02-10-2007, 15:22
Actually, US shipping is only marginally more than UK shipping. Forgeworld charge 12% to ship to the UK and 15% to the rest of the world. Not much of a difference at all. Admittedly the weak dollar at the moment makes it expensive for you guys across the pond, but that's hardly Forgeworld's fault.

Personally I do think that forgeworld products are worth the money - as you said, they're luxury products, in an already luxury hobby. The sculpting quality and general high standard of coolness make them worth it.

I too am surprised they don't seem to be expanding - pretty much everything they've produced in the last year has outsold their expectations massively - they're probably one of the few areas of GW which is actually seeing sales growth, and they're having difficulty keeping up with demand. I would like to see them expand production, but not at the expense of the quality that makes them special.

Free Spirit
02-10-2007, 15:22
I 'divide' FW into two parts.

first off you have the ultracool models they are known and famous for. the huge titans, the insanely cool Unclean One, etc, etc. All ranging from the expensive to the extremely expensive ( like the 40K starships ).

The other half isnt that bad, seriously. Alot of really cool models and mods are very fairly priced.
I pay for my GW stuff in euros, so for sake of comparisson, i shall calculate the pound cost in euros.

Example:

One of my favorite FW models is Inquisitor Solomon Lok and his trusty servoskull! Price: 9,00 pounds. Thats almost 13 euros. A model like that at GW would be metal and higher priced, probably 15 euros. Note that im not complaining about the GW price, just showing that FW isn't so bad when it comes to certain prices.

Another good one are the rhino doors for let's say.. the thousand sons. These doors look so amazing and cost 10 pounds, roughly 14 euros. Ill pay that for those doors because it makes any vehicles 10 times cooler. This one is clearly more expensive that if GW would make it, but still fairly priced IMHO

if you are worried about shipping just order with friends!

boogle
02-10-2007, 15:23
It is definately better to club together if there are little bits and pieces you and your gaming mates want, i often just let it tot up until there is 250 worth of stuff that i want

Finn
02-10-2007, 15:26
If a Defiler is worth 35, then a Thunderbolt is most certainly worth 75.

And therein lies the problem...

Marinox
02-10-2007, 15:27
i just don't understand why i have to cut obnoxious amounts of flash off the model and fix stuff that doesn't fit together right. for the amount of $ the stuff should be PERFECT. yet i still send them my monies. as long as there are suckers like me i'm sure FW will do just fine.

WarGod555
02-10-2007, 15:38
I fully agree. FW should be cheaper.

Captain Micha
02-10-2007, 15:44
considering Tamiya stuff is more detailed and is far cheaper... they have no justifaction what so ever for such high prices

boogle
02-10-2007, 15:45
Could it be that Tamiya is real world and FW isn't

Captain Micha
02-10-2007, 15:47
yes, but they can't use the 'justification' of 'detail' when they've been called on it.

Also Tamiya and all those other model companies have to pay a licensing fee that fw does not. They should just admit it. "you will pay whatever we want you to pay to use our ideas" and be done with it

Light of the Emperor
02-10-2007, 15:48
I've tried my hand a big FW models...needless to say I'm sticking with the smaller stuff.

FW still has awesome stuff though!

SquishySquig
02-10-2007, 15:52
:skull:
Is there anything that you want to buy that you wish was more expensive? Honestly I'm all for stuff being cheaper, but at the same time I never pay more than I feel something is worth and I own a few forgeworld kits and I live in the USA. Some I got from Ebay from lucky auctions but other stuff I got from FW itself. I order around Christmas time when they have the lower the amount you have to spend to get free shipping. Since I only order then, I have the whole rest of the year to put money into my forgeworld fund.

Every day there are gamers who field armies without forgeworld goodness.
For the price of 1 six pack a week you too can help a gamer have a forgeworld model of their own. Call 1-555-555-5555 to make a donation.
:skull:

Kriegsherr
02-10-2007, 15:52
Well.... for each of my armies, I spent a hundred up to many hundreds of pounds on FW Items... and I don't even Play guard or Krieg.

Orks needed cool rokkits... the elysian mortars gave me 3 cool rokkit-launcha thingies at 9 pounds each... ugh, but I bit the bullet because I liked the look of it.

Sisters needed more gothic stuff on their vehicles... FW and Battlewagon-bits to the rescue
The redemptionist needed assault gun arms... thanks FW for that beatyfull renegade militia stuff

The old crisis armour sucked, especially the head and legs, and I didn't wanted to wait until GW finally make that awesome Crisis MK2 Suit Concept reality... thank the Gods FW produced some suits that even might look a little bit cooler than the Crisis MK2, especially if mix-n-matched... right now I own 3 suits that costed me 40 pounds each, and give me the option to build some blocky old-school crisis suits with cooler heads as well.
Same goes for the Broadside, I only own one right now, but if I ever expand my Broadside Asset, I will gladly hand over my money to FW again.


GW Games are luxury Items... they are overpriced, and normally underused (at least with the people playing 40k I know).
If you have the choice of buying something that is too expensive, but doesn't looks that neat, or something even more expensive, but that looks ace, what would you choose? there is just a lot of stuff GW produces I don't like, and FW oftens is faster in making up for past model mistakes of GW.

Durath
02-10-2007, 15:53
i just don't understand why i have to cut obnoxious amounts of flash off the model and fix stuff that doesn't fit together right. for the amount of $ the stuff should be PERFECT. yet i still send them my monies. as long as there are suckers like me i'm sure FW will do just fine.

Haha... QFT. The flash on these molds are insanely excessive. I actually spent 2 hours shaving off a BLOCK of resin from the back of my Titan's shoulders before final assembly.

Still. The expense is what it is. The models they are making are infinitely better quality (in terms of detail) than Armorcast resins were. I have 2 FW models, and will be getting my 3rd and 4th around Christmas.

Captain Micha
02-10-2007, 15:59
And thanks guys on the excessive flash comments. one of my friends is like "but they tell you that you should expect that.. you know what you get into when you buy it" and I'm like "dude, I can buy model race planes complete with engines cheaper than I can a manta..." We're talking a 220+ mph model airplane that is bigger (but obviously far far lighter) than a manta and made from carbon fibre.... which is insanely more expensive than resin. (and no it's not a large shop either... literally it's from a guy in his basement making this stuff. ) so no boutique shop size excuse either.

The flashing, and mold lines shouldn't be there for that kind of money. I just wish they'd realise that.

Brother Loki
02-10-2007, 16:05
That's a good point Marinox. When I talked about quality earlier I was talking about the quality of the sculpts, which is fantastic. The quality of the mouldings, on the other hand, is often quite poor. I think their quality control is suffering because of their increased production schedule to keep up with demand (having moved from working 5 days to 7, for example). I suspect they may be pushing the moulds to a few more castings than they should be as well. For the money, quality control should really be spot on.

Polonius
02-10-2007, 16:09
Forgeworld isn't too expensive. It might be too expensive for some people, but as a company that according to reports is working more or less at full capacity and continues to expand it's product line, it's pretty clear that it's found a market for it's goods.

If you buy the models at full price and spend hours fixing a brand new kit, economics suggests that you consider the time and money to be worth it. I don't own any forgeworld, but I'm not saying I never will. At this point in my life, however, I'd rather spend my money on other things.

BTW, forgeworld's stuff is admittedly more detailed than the old armorcast stuff, but those models used a more durable resin. There's a reason they still sell for a fortune on eBay. While perhaps half as detailed, they're many, many times more playable than FW stuff. Plus their terrain is awesome!

boogle
02-10-2007, 16:23
I fully agree. FW should be cheaper.

Than what exactly?

If people think it's too expensive, then don't buy it, it's that same with people who whinge about football tickets, if something that is a luxury item is too much, don't pay it, no-one twists anyones arm up their back to buy the stuff, and to be honest, FW do over promote their stuff like GW do, it generally sells itself

setekhite
02-10-2007, 17:14
Generally, people are not comparing like with like.

Forge World use resin, which is the material of choice for highly detailed, bulky, low production volume kits - that's why it is so popular in the 'garage kit' market. Compared to most resin models I've seen around, Forge World are quite competitive in terms of price and quality. The cost and flash are the downside of getting these kits made in the quantities they are; FW don't have the production volumes on their stuff to justify using plastic.

That's where the Baneblade comes in - it's a trial to see if larger-size plastics can sell enough to be worthwhile.

Colonel Stagler
02-10-2007, 17:26
i have more forgeworld than you can shake a stick at, i love their models, makes gws look like cheesy cartoon men sometimes, i am definately a permanent member of their customer base, so all they create in the name of wargaming is not in vain :)

Leunam
02-10-2007, 17:29
In addition to their models, they've come up with a damn fine game in Aeronautica Imperialis. It's very easy to get into.

Boomstick
02-10-2007, 17:37
Although i may find the modles expensive i still have many of them because it for me represents value for money in a hobby that i enjoy and willing to spend that extra for what i want to further enjoy it.

Durath
02-10-2007, 17:48
In addition to their models, they've come up with a damn fine game in Aeronautica Imperialis. It's very easy to get into.

I was disappointed that AI uses a new range of models on a new scale (between 40k and Epic).

While I am sure its a fun game, I don't think I will be getting into it until/if I get all the FW 40k stuff I want for Apoc. :eyebrows:

Leunam
02-10-2007, 17:57
I was disappointed that AI uses a new range of models on a new scale (between 40k and Epic).

While I am sure its a fun game, I don't think I will be getting into it until/if I get all the FW 40k stuff I want for Apoc. :eyebrows:

You can still get the rulebook and use epic-scale models. Spacker did a size comparison, I believe, and while the Forgeworld models look worlds better, Epic models work fine as well.

Mr Zephy
02-10-2007, 18:20
Anyway, since there are special bases, it doesn't matter what models you use.

carlisimo
02-10-2007, 19:16
The Tamiya comparisons are funny. Tamiya models sell in HUGE numbers, that dwarf even Space Marine sales. They can afford to spend a million bucks developing a single model.

In the model airplane/tank market you have to compare FW to the short-run kit makers. Planes and tanks that are obscure and only a few people want to build models of are typically done in resin, because it's the only affordable method at small volumes. And they all have flash, warping, bubbles, and toxic sanding dust.

FW stuff is too expensive for me. But I think their prices are fair. Except for exchange rates, I hate those. Nothing sold in pounds has ever looked like a good buy over here.

Dreachon
02-10-2007, 19:32
Not to mention that tamiya kits are PLASTIC and not resin, also you can't compare those 2 companies at the good man before already explained that tamiya has a way bigger market than GW will ever have.

Tulun
02-10-2007, 19:34
Imagine buying Drop Pods for an entire force... 45 quid each ;)

Vannaroth
02-10-2007, 19:36
Sorry gents, but FW really is overpriced. The amount they charge for their kits borders on absurd.

I'd like to say you're paying for quality, but you're not. FW's stuff is brittle, warped and covered in gigantic flashes and other horrible defects. A resin tank kit in such a condition should not be valued at 150. It just shouldn't.

boogle
02-10-2007, 19:42
But it is, and that's the price on the market

carlisimo
02-10-2007, 20:58
I'd like to say you're paying for quality, but you're not.

No, you're paying for rarity. (Exclusivity in marketing-speak.) Mass production makes things cheaper... and FW's volumes aren't at that level.

It's like furniture. A guy designs a chair and finds a shop willing to make a few hundred. They sell for $5,000 each. Then an upper-range retailer decides to build the same chair, but they can make 10,000 of them. They sell for $700 each. Then IKEA builds a million of them, and sells them for $80 each. In the end, they probably all made the same percentage of profit.

Agamemnon2
02-10-2007, 21:42
People often ask why FW doesn't mass-produce their models. The answer is simply that their resin production methods couldn't cope with the volume. Keeping demand to a manageable level could, theoretically, account for a part of their price, but not knowing the corporate structure involved, I'd hesitate making a positive statement on it.

Yes, FW kits have problems. Resin is a tricky medium in that respect. It warps, shatters, has air bubbles, requires large pouring plugs on some parts, and so on. To some of us, these are an acceptable price to pay for the product. To some of us, not.

Brother Loki
02-10-2007, 21:58
Slightly off topic but the comment about the scale of Aeronautica Imperialis models being between 40k and Epic isn't quite right. The Forgeworld Aeronautica models are in-scale with Epic infantry (6mm I think?). The reason they are larger than the metal GW counterparts of some of them is that the metal vehicles and aircraft are under-scale in comparison with the infantry, so a metal thunderbolt for example is only something like 2/3 the size it should be.

The Phazer
02-10-2007, 22:20
FW's prices for resin garage kits aren't too bad. But ultimately there's something very simple here - FW are selling stuff beyond their reasonable ability to produce given current methods. The next step up (plastic) requires so much of an increase in volume that it's not plausible. Given the Games Day queue was like a warzone it was so packed, why would they concievably reduce their margins?

Phazer

Vannaroth
02-10-2007, 22:24
No, you're paying for rarity. (Exclusivity in marketing-speak.) Mass production makes things cheaper... and FW's volumes aren't at that level.

It's like furniture. A guy designs a chair and finds a shop willing to make a few hundred. They sell for $5,000 each. Then an upper-range retailer decides to build the same chair, but they can make 10,000 of them. They sell for $700 each. Then IKEA builds a million of them, and sells them for $80 each. In the end, they probably all made the same percentage of profit.

Not quite. You see, the original chair salesman would have to compete with other chairs from other chair salesmen, so if that chair sold for $5k you'd better believe it's worth that amount. But who does FW have to compete with? They could charge anything they want, rare or not. They have a nice little niche market thing going on.

Ofaloaf
02-10-2007, 22:42
I like Forgeworld because it forces creativity on my part. I'm a student, you must understand. I can't afford much. When I see Forgeworld models, though, I yearn for those suckers- yet I can never dig up enough money for any of their stuff. This has forced me to kitbash, convert and such, and now I'm pretty happy with my 40k army, even though it's not composed out of expensive resin figures made in Redcoatland.

KaldCB
02-10-2007, 22:48
I don't get it, sounds like pepole are whining that they really like the fw stuff, but dont think it's worth the money, or even saying its horrible cast and such.

No one is making you buy their models? it's just if you want the little extra, if you don't think it's worth it don't buy it, it's simple.
Stop complaining about everything. it's allowed to be positive on a warhammer forum:p

chromedog
02-10-2007, 23:05
I like how people compare FW to Tamiya - bit of an apples and oranges comparison there. Tamiya do injection moulded styrene models, FW do 'garage kits'. Check out the price on some 'garage' gundam kits in resin sometime.

A more fitting comparison would be Verlinden. They do resin pieces and etched brass for dioramas and more detailed models. I'm sure FW make very fine models, I just don't see the need to own any. I can show pictures to some friends and they can make them for me from those pictures (SFX modelmakers)

carlisimo
03-10-2007, 00:03
Not quite. You see, the original chair salesman would have to compete with other chairs from other chair salesmen, so if that chair sold for $5k you'd better believe it's worth that amount. But who does FW have to compete with? They could charge anything they want, rare or not. They have a nice little niche market thing going on.

They compete against converters. Against GW's minis. Against other tabletop game minis. Against model airplanes, tanks, cars, boats, and trains. And Playstations, etc etc. So many things to buy and yet FW finds enough buyers for everything it can produce!

You could say the same thing about chairs... no one else produces exactly the same chair. I know we're not chair enthusiasts here, but I know one guy (an architect) who is. I ask him why he thinks one particular chair is worth so much when they all do the same thing and he would tell me "yeah well, those green plastic soldiers you buy in a bucket do the same thing as FW figures..."

philbrad2
03-10-2007, 00:26
Lets try and keep the topic off the old chestnut of cost, may I draw your attention to the PRICING THREAD (http://warseer.com/forums/40k-news-rumour-discussion/1124-pricing-threads-a-general-warning.html) sticky over in 40K N&R. It's as valid here as it is in news and rumour so lets keep off the topic off cost and try and draw on some other aspects please before this descends into a FW/GW pricing rant thread.

PhilB
:chrome:
+ WarSeer Mod Team +

Norsehawk
03-10-2007, 00:31
I think I have a line item on Forgeworld's budget, not as big as some, but I'm d efinitely on there somewhere. That said, I do have a good amount of forge world stuff.

I usually buy tanks and turrets with some infantry figures thrown in for good measure. So far I haven't made the jump for any of the super heavies beyond the Malcador and the soon to arrive VMB Macharius, I do plan on buying a few plastic baneblade kits however in the future.

That being said, I have had some minor quality issues, and I have cleaned my fare share of flash and pour plugs from many figures, I don't mind, for me, its worth the difference in price to get figures that just look damn amazing.

If you just buy the turret upgrades for tanks (leman russ and chimera chassis) the prices are very reasonable to get some really nice figures (and since you can swap the turret on a tank without breaking out any tools, it makes for a more fluid army

Vannaroth
03-10-2007, 00:37
They compete against converters. Against GW's minis. Against other tabletop game minis. Against model airplanes, tanks, cars, boats, and trains. And Playstations, etc etc. So many things to buy and yet FW finds enough buyers for everything it can produce!

Like I said, they have those buyers because they're a niche market: their stuff is aimed quite exclusively at people who want to kick their 40k armies up a notch, and there is a loyal market in that. So until Airfix, Tamiya etc start building Baneblades and Titans, FW don't have much to worry about.



You could say the same thing about chairs... no one else produces exactly the same chair. I know we're not chair enthusiasts here, but I know one guy (an architect) who is. I ask him why he thinks one particular chair is worth so much when they all do the same thing and he would tell me "yeah well, those green plastic soldiers you buy in a bucket do the same thing as FW figures..."

Again, not quite. The chair analogy doesn't really work in that there are tons of furniature manufacturers compteting with eachother, each building similar things and adjusting prices to keep up. I don't see anyone other than Forge World, save for insignificantly small independent traders, making special 40k models.

In fact, I should imagine that a lot of furniature pricing is down to the materials used, so applying that to FW, who use cheap resin, they're still overpriced.

carlisimo
03-10-2007, 02:18
Materials are only the bulk of the cost if a factory with low labor costs is spitting out widgets at such a high rate that the fixed costs (like the factory) can be spread out to like, one cent per widget.

Say it takes 20,000 man-hours to design a FW model. And let's say each man-hour costs $50/hr (not just wages, but benefits, office, tools, other company costs). Design cost: $1million. Then they sell 10,000.

Each item would have to cost $100 (design), plus the smaller costs of material, labor to cast, and materials/labor to package and ship. Before making money! Then they add their 20% profit or whatever it is.

If they sell 100,000, each item only has to cover $10 of design costs - a $90 reduction! That's what I'm trying to say.

Colonel Stagler
03-10-2007, 12:16
Try telling Forgeworld is rubbish to Crippler :p

Hellebore
03-10-2007, 12:21
Well like every luxury item in the world, you don't NEED to buy it.

If you don't like the quality or price, don't purchase the product.

Oh, what's that? You NEED to buy all this stuff and it's not fair that something you need is so expensive? What a shame...

Hellebore

Getz
03-10-2007, 12:58
i just don't understand why i have to cut obnoxious amounts of flash off the model and fix stuff that doesn't fit together right. for the amount of $ the stuff should be PERFECT.

Because that's the way Resin kits are. Buy Resin kits from absolutely anyone else, and you will find the same is true (espcially for the more detailed parts). Admittedly FW don't help the issue by casting fiddly little parts in resin rather than white metal like most low volume military model makers do, but overall that makes the kits cheaper by not having to run multiple production facilities (and even obscure RL military subjects will probably outsell any FW kit you care to name globally because the Military modelling market is both much larger and generally possessing of more disposable income).


considering Tamiya stuff is more detailed and is far cheaper... they have no justifaction what so ever for such high prices

As has been already mentioned, the global market for RL military subjects far outstrips that of all GW products. Even when Tamiya does a relatively risky subject such as their recent Char B1 kit they can be confident of it selling far more units than any GW plastic kit. This is why Tamiya kits are cheaper than GW ones, despite being orders of magnitude more complex and detailed. When economies of scale mean that Tamiya can produce highly detailed kits of realtively obscure subjects for less than GW can sell a Rhino at, what chance does a low volume, specialist manufacturer have of keeping up? Compare FW to someone like Accurate Armour or Verlinden and their prices seem much more reasonable - especially considering even niche RL military model makers can shift significantly higher volumes than FW (and don't have to go through the creative design process, which as Carlisimo demonstrated, does have an impact on cost for low volume manufacturers...)


Like I said, they have those buyers because they're a niche market: their stuff is aimed quite exclusively at people who want to kick their 40k armies up a notch, and there is a loyal market in that. So until Airfix, Tamiya etc start building Baneblades and Titans, FW don't have much to worry about.

As a regular FW customer who buys both large and small kits from them, I call shenanigans on this. The fact that nobody competes directly with FW doesn't mean they don't have competition. If FW raised their prices by 50% across the board then I very much doubt I would by anywhere near as much stuff from them. Instead I would spend my disposable income on computer games, roleplaying books or just going to the pub. With any luxury or leisure purchase we all conduct an unconsious cost/benefit analysis. Personally I consider 75 for a Valkyrie to be a fair price for the pleasure it's ownership will give me, whereas at 100 pounds or more I would rather spend the money on going to a flash restaurant a couple of times.