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W0lf
02-10-2007, 19:54
one of my most regular opponents is a dwarf player whos got 3 more years experience of fantasy then me. Hes a great general and plays a very good game. My tzeentch vs his dwarves is always very tight..

lately ive decided to do a Orc army with over 50 Black orcs + grimgor..

the problem you ask?

All his units get hatred vs me but i dont return the favour???

are their any other races that do this? i thought the idea was if they get hatred so do you vs them (DE vs HE for example)

it turns very close games into silly one sided affairs...

Neknoh
02-10-2007, 19:59
Wait, HE hates DE?

W0lf
02-10-2007, 20:03
oh...

ok i thought they did, my bad.

Ok then ill expand my opening post:

Is it fair some armies have hatred vs another and theirs no return?

Keller
02-10-2007, 20:10
HE are immune to panic caused by DE, but they don't hate them to my knowledge, unless that is changed in the new book.

As to the question, I can't really think of anything else. Gobbos fear all elves not outnumbered, but again, that only hurts the O&G army.

If it makes you feel any better, Gnoblars are also considered Greenskins, and would thereby be hated by dwarves.

Neknoh
02-10-2007, 20:11
I would say yes, it ads to the flavour of the game, Greenskins doesn't really hate dwarves, they just like a good thumpin' ov da stunties, whilst High Elves doesn't hate their dark cousins to the extent where they would go out on a limb to get revenge on them, instead, they refuse to give ground to their wretched kin.

Lord Tzeentch
02-10-2007, 20:16
Look on the bright side Gimgor and his unit Hate everybody now thats mean when they charge and using two choppas.

huitzilopochtli
02-10-2007, 20:21
night goblins hate dwarfs, IRRC....

Alathir
03-10-2007, 04:25
I've seen quite a few of these matchups (orcs vs. dwarfs) and the fact that you can so heavily outnumber the dwarfs balances out the hatred, plus it can actually work in your favour sometimes considering they HAVE to pursue.

PeWpWnsJ00
03-10-2007, 15:59
I believe Shadow Warriors now hate Dark Elves.

I think you've got to bite the bullet with Orcs vs. Dwarves. If you choose to use Grimgor, that should pretty much make up for the lack of hatred on your side.

Finnigan2004
03-10-2007, 17:58
In part, I think that the advantages that some races get over others if fluff. It also relates to game balance, however. In the case of elves and dwarves getting bonuses against greenskins, I would think that this probably relates partially to the fact that it would otherwise be a matchup that would favor the greenskins a great deal due to a massive numerical imbalance. The games that I've seen between dwarves and orcs have usually been pretty evenly matched.

W0lf
03-10-2007, 19:05
The games that I've seen between dwarves and orcs have usually been pretty evenly matched.

He fields a unit of 20 Ironbreakers, 30 slayers and 23 Hammerers with a lord on shield bearers as his main fighting troops.

Those 3 units dont need hatred to cause me all kinda ****.

Dosnt matter anyway ive reworked my list from 2 units of black orcs and 1 unit of big uns to 1 unit of black (with grimgor now) and a larger unit of big uns with a hero.

Should be alot closer.

Lord Tzeentch
03-10-2007, 19:27
You can only have one unit of big'uns. Unless Ironclaw is you General

Finnigan2004
03-10-2007, 20:03
I've played a force like this only twice, but I found that the real lack of mobility hampered it. I'm not sure of your force, but I think that mobility is the key to beating it. I can offer a little general advice, but it's tough not knowing exactly what units are involved.

You might find that your points would be better spent in mobile stuff than in big'uns-- I never try to out dwarf dwarfs and fight them on their own terms (and I use chaos, so my stuff is very able to kill things). If you have mobile stuff, you should be able to pick and choose your fights. When I faced dwarves like these, I managed to get around behind with some very fast units and use combined charges to destroy enough to claim a solid victory. Remember that you don't need to destroy all of the units to win, and that a huge and expensive unit (the lord and hammerer) with a movement of 3 is a huge points sink, if you fight everything else instead of fighting it. With that many points, his shooting should not be too impressive, so you can use your fast troops to deal with the missile troops before attacking the bigger and tougher units.

Hvidponi
04-10-2007, 00:38
You can have one of each unit Big Un's...
Grimgor is overpowered and mean and by no ways fun, so that evens up the hatred thing ;)...
But personally I am not a fan of the "extra bonus versus that army" thing in any game, as it ruins the game balance...

W0lf
04-10-2007, 13:48
People over rate grimgor.

Oh and his dwarf lord can kill grimgor any time any day...

He gets a 1+ re-rollable save and a 5+ ward.. not too shabby..

Oh then he destroys my magic weapon and strikes at S8!

And i only have one unit of big 'uns i meant to write i made that unit bigger. And yes its alot closer as i managed to squeeze to chariots in.. mmmm rear charges with chariots..

Crazy Harborc
05-10-2007, 00:49
I do seem to recall that chariots do not march move. Charge move yes and a single/regular move distance yes. At 7" per turn (until charging) a chaiot will take awhile to reach an opponent unit's flank.

Against Dwarves....think Night Goblins....LARGE units of them....30 bodies with spears, musician and a standard

Lord Tzeentch
05-10-2007, 01:19
Grimgor over rated,underpriced if you ask me.

Yes his lord will give grimgor a slap if hes still alive after the beating he will take. He strikes first with 7 Str 7 attacks and can re-roll failed rolls to hit. Very nice and deadly. Hmmm anyway it looks like this Dwarf player knows what he's doing.

T10
05-10-2007, 10:55
Is it fair some armies have hatred vs another and theirs no return?

I don't think that's a fair question. Traditionally, Hatred has served as a games mechanic representing background and character.

Now-a-days it it's more of a unit ability: When a unit hates "everybody", it's just lazy games design.

-T10

zak
05-10-2007, 15:37
I'm amazed you didn't use large blocks of Night Goblins, Squigs and Squig Hoppers to even up the hatred. Throw in netters and fanatics and you have an excellent anti-dwarf element in the army. It's great when dwarfs need 5's to wound your troops!

W0lf
05-10-2007, 21:12
to everyone who says 'im amazed you didnt use N.Gobbos..' or 'just use N.gobbos' then to that i answer:

I make a 2k list and stick to it. Tailoring your list is cheating in my opinion. Hell my ork army has 7 Dispel dice that i pay for.. i dont drop the points there and re-invest because im playing dwarfs. Thats not very sporting.

Tutore
06-10-2007, 12:46
one of my most regular opponents is a dwarf player whos got 3 more years experience of fantasy then me. Hes a great general and plays a very good game. My tzeentch vs his dwarves is always very tight..

lately ive decided to do a Orc army with over 50 Black orcs + grimgor..

the problem you ask?

All his units get hatred vs me but i dont return the favour???

are their any other races that do this? i thought the idea was if they get hatred so do you vs them (DE vs HE for example)

it turns very close games into silly one sided affairs...


In HtH, hatred gives a good bonus to the dwarves. However it's usually a greater penalty. I always exploit my enemy's plan using a simple unit of wolf riders or spider riders. I charge them in the flank, dwarves win of course, AND MUST PURSUE. So they give a simple flank to my main orc units. I'm happy to fight enemies who hate my units, provided I use many (normally 4) fast cavalry units in 2000 points.