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TheBigBadWolf
02-10-2007, 21:53
Does anyone not find it strange that the imperium has loads of space marine chapters named after animals such as, wolves, snakes, eagles, dragons and griffons, yet there is only one chapter in official fluff that has lion heraldy, the celestial lions and they were wiped out by the inquistion.
Given that games workshop is a british game where the lion is the most prominent feature, i think there should be more chapters and IG named after them.

Ozendorph
02-10-2007, 22:09
Given that games workshop is a british game where the lion is the most prominent feature

I'm not sure I get your meaning there. Anyway, did the Astral Claws use any sort of Lion iconography? Maybe Lions were extinct by the 31st Millennium. (Except on Caliban, of course ;) )

Norminator
02-10-2007, 22:12
I think he means that British culture is heavily influence by lions - symbol of our national football team for a start.

I see what you mean BBW, but in the end Lions are very noble and pure (in imagery) and the Imperium isn't that - whilst Wloves, Snakes, Dragons etc. are all slightly sinister.

Progena
02-10-2007, 22:14
The new DA successor Chapter 'Disciples of Caliban' have a Lion Heraldry. Then there are the Lion Warriors who don't have any fluff except for being a Codex Chapter. The Lion symbol is closely linked to the Primarch Lion El'Jonson of the DA. The Unforgiven (DA successors) are kept at a low number for fluff reasons.

TheBigBadWolf
02-10-2007, 23:17
I think he means that British culture is heavily influence by lions - symbol of our national football team for a start.

I see what you mean BBW, but in the end Lions are very noble and pure (in imagery) and the Imperium isn't that - whilst Wloves, Snakes, Dragons etc. are all slightly sinister.

Mmm the eagle is one of the Imperiums greatest symbol, i always think they are noble. As you say there is a heavy influence in our culture for lions, where as the eagle is more american IMO. It just seems to me that the lion has been shunned by GW, when it would be an amazing sybol to put on armour, lion shaped helmets, tanks and the like.

bhusus
02-10-2007, 23:31
The eagle far predates the americans; the idea for SM is significantly derived from the Roman Empire who had a great deal of eagle iconography. As for the other animals being sinister, they are only so in biblical and other western influenced literature, snakes have holy significance in India, Dragons in China, Wolves amongst Native American populations - all of these animals are used more likely for the ability of GW to create decent looking models with their simplistic icons. I think if you like lions so much, and there aren't many, its the perfect opportunity for you to bring them into the light - an amazing looking army with a lion as its icon would be great to see.

Hicks
03-10-2007, 00:25
I too was thinking the same thing, but hey it gives an easy option for people who want to start a DIY marine chapter. GW might have wanted to stay away from the lion theme because it would be too cliché in the UK. Also, to me the lion as a royalty feel to it, while the eagle is really more fitting for an Empire... but that's just me.

Minister
03-10-2007, 01:53
I think he means that British culture is heavily influence by lions - symbol of our national football team for a start.

We have a national football team? I must not have been paying attention.

The Imperium appears to prefer tigers over lions in heraldry, though other big cats such as panthers are also in use.

More to the point, where's the respect for the Space Sharks?

deathwing_marine
03-10-2007, 01:58
Space Bears ftw

Javelin
03-10-2007, 02:01
Amongst the Imperial Guard the Praetorians use the Lion in their heraldry. Kinda makes sense for the most 'British' of the Guard regiments.

Ofaloaf
03-10-2007, 02:03
Mmm the eagle is one of the Imperiums greatest symbol, i always think they are noble. As you say there is a heavy influence in our culture for lions, where as the eagle is more american IMO. It just seems to me that the lion has been shunned by GW, when it would be an amazing sybol to put on armour, lion shaped helmets, tanks and the like.

The Eagle used by the Imperium always made me think of the Hapsburgs, to be honest. Never really thought of it as being American at all.

The Lion, on the other hand, often has connotations of bravery, wisdom, intelligence, leadership, and pure as the driven snow. The Imperium's a bloated, corrupt, and Machiavellian government that does whatever's necessary to retain power. Doesn't really fit too well together.

Also, there's a fair amount of Lion imagery in Warhammer Fantasy, to be fair.

Feor
03-10-2007, 02:15
Simplest Reason? at 28mm scale a decent looking lion can be a pain to paint. :p

Amornar
03-10-2007, 07:03
Space Bears ftw

ill second that

Hellebore
03-10-2007, 07:20
Perhaps precisely BECAUSE the lion is so British, they didn't want to use it?

Maybe they wanted to steer away from classic British archetypes (a lot of the humour is British, but not really any of the imagery).

Hellebore

Tehkonrad
03-10-2007, 08:38
Good thinking hellebore
also why no Space Bacteria?
I mean they are pretty scary

Stormsender
03-10-2007, 08:48
I am left wondering why hasn't the wombat been represented, you know if you seen a legion of space marines coming at you with wombat iconagraphy they mean business. You'd better run, it's those wombat guys, serious they've really got an axe to grind, with there chittering and thier screeching.

LawrencePhillips
03-10-2007, 10:29
The lion is usually used as heraldy for monarchy type states dating back to Alexanda the Great and before. While traditionally the eagle is related to republics it was used in Rome and many empires as well as currently by the USA. Since the imperium is a sort of republic its a little more fitting.

On a side note, through history military forces ususally take the family heraldy from their founder (usually a member of senate, Royal family etc) from their personal coat of arms. This concept is almost alien to most people today outside Britan, Germany and France. Most people don't know what their family crest looks like.

A nice touch would be to go and find out, then paint those marines / guard to match, though you'll need a steady hand, they're notoriously detailed.

TheBigBadWolf
03-10-2007, 11:22
I think if you like lions so much, and there aren't many, its the perfect opportunity for you to bring them into the light - an amazing looking army with a lion as its icon would be great to see.

Thats a good point the new high elf lion chariot has some amazing icons on it, that could easily be incorporated onto SM tanks ans helmets

slickis
03-10-2007, 12:17
haha yeah, go play fantasy, heaps more lions there ;D

bhusus
03-10-2007, 13:42
Well if this new Space Marine Company deal lasts long enough and I end up buying it, I'll do it; I know my brother will be getting the new HE Chariots anyway and I'll probably get my hands on a few just for the lions - now this won't be for a while but whenever I do I'll post my conversions.

paspinall
03-10-2007, 14:13
The lion is usually used as heraldy for monarchy type states dating back to Alexanda the Great and before. While traditionally the eagle is related to republics it was used in Rome and many empires as well as currently by the USA. Since the imperium is a sort of republic its a little more fitting.

On a side note, through history military forces ususally take the family heraldy from their founder (usually a member of senate, Royal family etc) from their personal coat of arms. This concept is almost alien to most people today outside Britan, Germany and France. Most people don't know what their family crest looks like.

A nice touch would be to go and find out, then paint those marines / guard to match, though you'll need a steady hand, they're notoriously detailed.

Indeed the family creats are quite detailed, am I sad in that i know them for all my grandparents? :D

Shibboleth
03-10-2007, 14:24
I sent a request to Forgeworld once asking for Lion iconography on SM doors, shoulderpads, etc. to go with my 'Emperor's Pride' and 'Lions of Babyl-1' chapters, pointing out that it is surely a common heraldry theme that would be popular if produced...

They replied that they only do stuff for those Chapters in demand.

They then went on to re-invent, and fully support, Raptors and Red Scorpions...
...because they were so in demand...:rolleyes:

Marsekay
03-10-2007, 15:56
anyone remember the big picture of the huge doors "eternity gate?" at emps palace from 3rd ed? it had a MASSIVE piece of lion heraldry

i think....