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Lord Merlin
03-10-2007, 01:03
Guilliman did nothing for the imperium after the heresy. So, he stepped up and took control. Any of the primarchs could have. So he takes control of the imperium, forms the most useless legislative body ever, and then breaks up humanity's last hope of ever actually expanding like the Emperor wanted. I mean the fascist forces his ideas on his brothers. Especially the space wolves got a crappy end of the deal. Wouldn't the Imperium have been better off if the primarchs had formed a council, decided on the best course of action then just do it. I don't think the age of aposty would ever have happened if there had been even one full legion of marines to step in. So what we have are a bunch of little armies that, while great fighting on one planet have practically no force in what way the Imperium goes. Except the Ultramarines. Calgar just snaps his fingers and he had two legions at his command. There are so many chapters off the Ultramarines that if they united bing, another couple of legions. And none of the other Ultramarine chapters have any independence. they're so wrapped up in reading their pretty little book that when the Ultramarines do something they all follwo blindly.

Ktotwf
03-10-2007, 01:05
The shining knight Space Marines had proven once and for all times that they would pursue their own interests above the common interests of humanity.

The Imperium that Gulliman ushered in was the beginning of rule by normal humans, who, while corrupt, at least weren't the complete and utter ********** that the Space Marines had proven to be.

Imperialis_Dominatus
03-10-2007, 01:23
The shining knight Space Marines had proven once and for all times that they would pursue their own interests above the common interests of humanity.

The Imperium that Gulliman ushered in was the beginning of rule by normal humans, who, while corrupt, at least weren't the complete and utter ********** that the Space Marines had proven to be.

Well, it's not so much being douchbags as being able to wield their douchbagginess. A human can be a *********. A Space Marine can be a ********* and crush someone's skull. A Primarch can be a ********* and break a Bloodthirster over his knee and control both Legions of Space Marines (see above) and armies of humans (again, see further above) and there were eightloyal potential super-duper-********** left. Their power had to be broken. I can see some of your points though.

Tyron
03-10-2007, 01:31
Guilliman was holding the whole of the eatern fringe with his Legion.

When out of all the remaining Primarchs Guilliman was the only one qualified, and had enough men to see his assessments carried out and ensured another heresy couldn't happen again.

Feor
03-10-2007, 01:42
Guilliman was thinking "Wow, us Primarchs and Space Marines have been beaten pretty badly, and most of humanity has a serious mis-trust of us right now. If the Imperial Army and Navy decided to turn on us, never mind the Titan Legions, we wouldn't stand a chance. So, I'm going to make sure we're not a serious threat, while still able to defend the Imperium, and some day, maybe Daddy'll wake up and set everything right again."

At least, that's how I figure it.

Khaine's Messenger
03-10-2007, 01:47
Guilliman did nothing for the imperium after the heresy.

Indeed; in the recent background, the Council of Terra was established long before he served as Regent, and its decisions were part of the precipitation of the Horus Heresy proper. The only thing Guilliman has to his name these days is the separation of powers doctrine.


Especially the space wolves got a crappy end of the deal.

Considering they pretty much ignored the Codex Astartes in its entirity, I fail to see how they got a crappier end to the deal than the Imperial Fists, who were actually fired upon.


Wouldn't the Imperium have been better off if the primarchs had formed a council, decided on the best course of action then just do it.

No, because even Primarchs don't live forever; the Horus Heresy is a case in point. Eventually, the torch would have to pass, and the Legions simply were not groomed to rule.

Imperialis_Dominatus
03-10-2007, 01:54
Indeed; in the recent background, the Council of Terra was established long before he served as Regent, and its decisions were part of the precipitation of the Horus Heresy proper. The only thing Guilliman has to his name these days is the separation of powers doctrine.

Yeah, though that was a pretty big step.


Considering they pretty much ignored the Codex Astartes in its entirity, I fail to see how they got a crappier end to the deal than the Imperial Fists, who were actually fired upon.

True dat, who cares about a rule if you don't follow it? Of course, their one Chapter that they founded was kinda shafted.


No, because even Primarchs don't live forever; the Horus Heresy is a case in point. Eventually, the torch would have to pass, and the Legions simply were not groomed to rule.

Not to mention certain elements of distrust present after Horus' betrayal, as mentioned by Feor.

Hive Mind 33
03-10-2007, 01:55
Considering they pretty much ignored the Codex Astartes in its entirity, I fail to see how they got a crappier end to the deal than the Imperial Fists, who were actually fired upon.

Thats what i was think the wolves never even split up the legion. and had on chapter created after use said fine use the geneseed.

back on topic Lets not forget what Humanities hope to conquer the galaxy did. He split up the legion(save the Wolves) so no one could command that mush power and start another civil war.

Brother Thuemoose
03-10-2007, 02:04
Guilliman did nothing for the imperium after the heresy. So, he stepped up and took control. Any of the primarchs could have. So he takes control of the imperium, forms the most useless legislative body ever, and then breaks up humanity's last hope of ever actually expanding like the Emperor wanted. I mean the fascist forces his ideas on his brothers. Especially the space wolves got a crappy end of the deal. Wouldn't the Imperium have been better off if the primarchs had formed a council, decided on the best course of action then just do it. I don't think the age of aposty would ever have happened if there had been even one full legion of marines to step in. So what we have are a bunch of little armies that, while great fighting on one planet have practically no force in what way the Imperium goes. Except the Ultramarines. Calgar just snaps his fingers and he had two legions at his command. There are so many chapters off the Ultramarines that if they united bing, another couple of legions. And none of the other Ultramarine chapters have any independence. they're so wrapped up in reading their pretty little book that when the Ultramarines do something they all follwo blindly.

Yeah, its not like Horus ordered Gulliman to muster for a fake mission far away from Terra, and then sent another legion to keep him and the Ultramarines busy. Ooops.

Guilliman saw the threat that a Legion of Space Marines posed if they were ever used for evil again. He reasoned that, if they were broken into smaller units, it would be harder for them to unite to try to overthrow the Imperium, yet they would still have the ability to defend the Imperium against threats.

And what are you talking about that none of the successive chapters have any independence? You've obviously never read Warriors of Ultramar. In that, the Ultramarines team up with one of their second Founding chapters, only to find that they view the Codex as guidelines rather than law (which, btw, was what Guilliman was hoping for. I think after the First Tyranic War and Hivefleet Behemoth, some high-up Ultramarine states that the Tyranids were a curse caused by the Chapter's blind obedience to the Codex.) The two chapters have eventually end up arguing, and they part ways (yeah, the Ultras were dicks for disagreeing with the other chapter the way they did, but since the Codex is a work by their Primarch, they view it as a holy book: since the Emperor is divine, why wouldn't his sons also be divine).

Guilliman did what he thought was best for the Imperium, and he didn't put himself in charge. I bet he had the chance, though, considering the Ultramarine Legion was the largest (and suffered the fewest casualties during the Heresy), and was one of the more efficient in battle. But he didn't.

mistformsquirrel
03-10-2007, 02:53
Guilliman was thinking "Wow, us Primarchs and Space Marines have been beaten pretty badly, and most of humanity has a serious mis-trust of us right now. If the Imperial Army and Navy decided to turn on us, never mind the Titan Legions, we wouldn't stand a chance. So, I'm going to make sure we're not a serious threat, while still able to defend the Imperium, and some day, maybe Daddy'll wake up and set everything right again."

At least, that's how I figure it.

That's how I see it too honestly.

Not only was he making sure a second rebellion would never again be so massive, but he also was able to re-establish trust in the Space Marines; something that the Heresy assuredly damaged.

Think about it - how utterly bitter would you be if you were a surviving loyalist Guardsman after the Heresy? Just how furious would you be at those super-beings who tore your friends to pieces, who nearly killed you, and subjected whole worlds to horrors beyond imagining?

Now take that Guardsman, and make him most of the surviving non-Marine loyalists.

If Gulliman hadn't done something to restore trust in the Marines; then the Marines would very likely have been destroyed in the end. Some may even question if this may not have been a good thing; given the trouble modern Marines still get up to at times.

In the end, I think without the Codex, the Astartes would be either dead, or in sorrier shape after further infighting later.

After all, there were plenty of grudges left to be settled post-heresy even among the loyalist forces. Imagine how bad the "Blame game" could have gotten. (Ie: "It's YOUR fault Horus rebelled!" "Oh yeah? Well YOU could have saved our Father if you'd just been there!")

*shudder* <x,x>;;

Besides that, the Codex itself is actually a very solid tactical manual. I think some Marines vastly overstate just *how* solid (ie: Taking it to the letter, all the time, with no adaptation) - but the organizational style has obviously worked well; and it provides a battle plan for Marines even if they wind up leaderless. (For instance, say your Captain catches a bolt-shell in the head, and your sergeants Plasma Pistol overloads. If this were a Guard army, you may be panicking - but Marines? They've got a contingency. And then a contingency for if this contingency fails. And probably at least one more after that.)

Shiakou
03-10-2007, 03:14
Besides that, the Codex itself is actually a very solid tactical manual. I think some Marines vastly overstate just *how* solid (ie: Taking it to the letter, all the time, with no adaptation) - but the organizational style has obviously worked well; and it provides a battle plan for Marines even if they wind up leaderless. (For instance, say your Captain catches a bolt-shell in the head, and your sergeants Plasma Pistol overloads. If this were a Guard army, you may be panicking - but Marines? They've got a contingency. And then a contingency for if this contingency fails. And probably at least one more after that.)

Agreed. What's particularly amazing is what happens when they are completely defeated.

IG Regiments often rout when they're defeated.

SM seldom, if ever, rout. They organize a retreat. Or kamikaze the enemy, depending on the Chapter.

mistformsquirrel
03-10-2007, 03:28
Agreed. What's particularly amazing is what happens when they are completely defeated.

IG Regiments often rout when they're defeated.

SM seldom, if ever, rout. They organize a retreat. Or kamikaze the enemy, depending on the Chapter.

Exactly.

Marines are disciplined; and they have plenty of fall back plans and contingencies to work with.

Too much fire coming in the route you originally planned to assault? Fall back, let the armor move up that side, and re-orient your group to go at it another way.

Battle completely unwinnable? Fighting retreat, destroy any equipment that can't be saved so your enemy has nothing. Take as few casualties on the way out as possible, while taking as many enemies with you as you can.

No escape? Go down fighting. But not stupidly - sure, some chapters will send their warriors to just bum-rush the enemy in a glorious final charge. But I think the majority (ie: Codex chapters), will try to form a plan that lets them do as much damage as possible before going down.

I honestly feel Marine strategy and leadership competence is vastly understated in fluff sometimes. I mean, you get this build up about how the Codex is a fantastic work of battlefield strategy and tactical knowledge... and then when you read stories about Marines, half the time they're just charging the enemy blindly <x.x> Even the Space Wolves don't do that except in certain circumstances! And they don't even follow the Codex!

Err... I guess my point is <,< I think too many people get the oddball idea that Marines = Meatheads with armor who just come running at you. The Black Templars might *sort of* fit that description - but even then only to a degree; generally though, I see Marines as having some of the best thought out plans of the entire Imperial war machine - which is what allows them to do the crazy stuff they do. (Even Power Armor can't stop an anti-tank rocket after all; and being outnumbered so vastly so often... you get the idea...)

... I'm rambling I just realized >.<

Lord Merlin
03-10-2007, 04:09
And what are you talking about that none of the successive chapters have any independence? You've obviously never read Warriors of Ultramar. In that, the Ultramarines team up with one of their second Founding chapters, only to find that they view the Codex as guidelines rather than law (which, btw, was what Guilliman was hoping for. I think after the First Tyranic War and Hivefleet Behemoth, some high-up Ultramarine states that the Tyranids were a curse caused by the Chapter's blind obedience to the Codex.) The two chapters have eventually end up arguing, and they part ways (yeah, the Ultras were dicks for disagreeing with the other chapter the way they did, but since the Codex is a work by their Primarch, they view it as a holy book: since the Emperor is divine, why wouldn't his sons also be divine).



The chapters listed in the How to book for space marines.
Eagle warriors
Doom eagles
Novamarines
White consuls
black consuls
pratetors of orpheas
genesis
aurora
silver skulls
sons of Guilliman
And these do not include the Mortifactors. Who are listed in another part of the book. I have no doubt that if you took a good look through the Astartes you could probably find at least a legion for the ultramarines to recruit. While the other first founding guys have a couple of sprout chapters. It seems to me that Guilliman's supposed breaking down of the legions resulted in his legion becoming the most dangerous in the galaxy.

Khaine's Messenger
03-10-2007, 04:35
It seems to me that Guilliman's supposed breaking down of the legions resulted in his legion becoming the most dangerous in the galaxy.

That doesn't really follow. If your argument is that breaking down the legions doesn't really break down the legions, then what do the other first founding legions have to fear? I would expect you to be more worried about the fact that Ultramarines geneseed has since become the most widely used geneseed for loyalist marines, comprising more than three-fifths of all Space Marines (if memory serves). But really, it's not the Ultramarines that get to make that decision.

Brother Thuemoose
03-10-2007, 05:07
The chapters listed in the How to book for space marines.
Eagle warriors
Doom eagles
Novamarines
White consuls
black consuls
pratetors of orpheas
genesis
aurora
silver skulls
sons of Guilliman
And these do not include the Mortifactors. Who are listed in another part of the book. I have no doubt that if you took a good look through the Astartes you could probably find at least a legion for the ultramarines to recruit. While the other first founding guys have a couple of sprout chapters. It seems to me that Guilliman's supposed breaking down of the legions resulted in his legion becoming the most dangerous in the galaxy.

No kidding that there are so many Ultramarine second found chapters. Like I said before, they were the largest legion at the time, so of course, when they split up into 1000 marine strong chapters there would be many, many chapters. In addition, it is stated that the geenseed from the Ultramarines is very stable and free of mutations (they take very good care of it, which is why they grew to be so big during the Crusade). Besides, do you really need half a legion to assault a planet, when three or four companies will do (orks and tyranids would require larger numbers, of course).

Since I don't have that particular book, I had to search Lexicanum for those chapters. There is noting there to say what their views are on the Codex, so if there is something that states that they follow it to the letter, then please let me know.

And what did it say about the Mortifactors? Since one of the books specifically states that they are a successor chapter, and one that does not follow the Codex very strictly.


That doesn't really follow. If your argument is that breaking down the legions doesn't really break down the legions, then what do the other first founding legions have to fear? I would expect you to be more worried about the fact that Ultramarines geneseed has since become the most widely used geneseed for loyalist marines, comprising more than three-fifths of all Space Marines (if memory serves). But really, it's not the Ultramarines that get to make that decision.

See, this guy gets it. Its up to the Imperium to decide who the new chapters are based off of. The chapters may be autonomous, but they still serve the Imperium. And even if the Ultramarines AND their successors went nuts and tried to take over the Imperium, plenty of Guard and Navy units would go too. Not to mention, other chapters decended from other legions may follow (the Imperial Fists are another Codex follower, and IIRC, the two chapters have become close since the Codex issue first arose, but I'm not sure if they would join in).

Still, even with just 3/5s the number of Space Marines I'm sure they could carve a vast swath out of the Imperium, if not take control entirely. Why then haven't they taken over yet? They only control a small "empire" (that Guilliman set up before the Crusade) on the Eastern Fringe. They provide tithes and send men for the Guard, even though they are exempt from doing so. Your theory make no sense.

There was a thread (http://warseer.com/forums/40k-background/104064-roboute-guilliman-hero-of-the-imperium-or-obnoxious-sycophant.html) a few weeks back where someone said almost the exact same thing. Is there a reason people hate the Ultramarines and Guilliman that much? Other than the fact that everyone plays them, that is. You're implying that Guilliman seriously messed up the Imperium whereas I'm sure that most everyone else will agree that there were other factors that did MUCH more damage than Guilliman did (the rise of the Imperial cult and the creation of a theocracy for one, and the hoarding of knowledge by the Mechanicus and their insistance on using only STC based technology rather than creating new stuff.

Grandmaster Belial
03-10-2007, 05:18
No kidding that there are so many Ultramarine second found chapters. Like I said before, they were the largest legion at the time, so of course, when they split up into 1000 marine strong chapters there would be many, many chapters. In addition, it is stated that the geenseed from the Ultramarines is very stable and free of mutations (they take very good care of it, which is why they grew to be so big during the Crusade). Besides, do you really need half a legion to assault a planet, when three or four companies will do (orks and tyranids would require larger numbers, of course).

Since I don't have that particular book, I had to search Lexicanum for those chapters. There is noting there to say what their views are on the Codex, so if there is something that states that they follow it to the letter, then please let me know.

And what did it say about the Mortifactors? Since one of the books specifically states that they are a successor chapter, and one that does not follow the Codex very strictly.



See, this guy gets it. Its up to the Imperium to decide who the new chapters are based off of. The chapters may be autonomous, but they still serve the Imperium. And even if the Ultramarines AND their successors went nuts and tried to take over the Imperium, plenty of Guard and Navy units would go too. Not to mention, other chapters decended from other legions may follow (the Imperial Fists are another Codex follower, and IIRC, the two chapters have become close since the Codex issue first arose, but I'm not sure if they would join in).

Still, even with just 3/5s the number of Space Marines I'm sure they could carve a vast swath out of the Imperium, if not take control entirely. Why then haven't they taken over yet? They only control a small "empire" (that Guilliman set up before the Crusade) on the Eastern Fringe. They provide tithes and send men for the Guard, even though they are exempt from doing so. Your theory make no sense.

There was a thread (http://warseer.com/forums/40k-background/104064-roboute-guilliman-hero-of-the-imperium-or-obnoxious-sycophant.html) a few weeks back where someone said almost the exact same thing. Is there a reason people hate the Ultramarines and Guilliman that much? Other than the fact that everyone plays them, that is. You're implying that Guilliman seriously messed up the Imperium whereas I'm sure that most everyone else will agree that there were other factors that did MUCH more damage than Guilliman did (the rise of the Imperial cult and the creation of a theocracy for one, and the hoarding of knowledge by the Mechanicus and their insistance on using only STC based technology rather than creating new stuff.


QFT. You said everything I was going to and more.

Cheers

Hive Mind 33
03-10-2007, 05:34
when Guilliman wrote the codex he did 't to make sure no one could ever wield that much power again. Also splitting up the legions into chapters was genius. Seeing that the Imperium is a big place it is better to have many smaller self suffecnt armies than one massive one that could take weeks to get form point a to point b.

On geneseeds i believe that the use the UM geneseed more often is because it is the most pure. BA have the red thirst, SW have a bunch of long teeth, the wufin and such. IF have a slight mutation, not alot of salamanders left. I don' know about the WS, or RG. And i believe that DA geneseed is used on the request of the DA chapter master.

dr.oetk3r
03-10-2007, 05:36
Cuz teh ultrasmerfs where the only legion that wasn't horribly crushed in some way during the heresy.

So Guilliman was the only one who could actually get anything done military wise. Since he controlled the military he pretty much controled everything.

Hive Mind 33
03-10-2007, 05:51
Cuz teh ultrasmerfs where the only legion that wasn't horribly crushed in some way during the heresy.

So Guilliman was the only one who could actually get anything done military wise. Since he controlled the military he pretty much controled everything.

the Wolf and the Lion were not horribly crushed either. the salamanders, the raven guard, and the iron hands were. the others were not at full strength but they had enough to be split. IF-3 chapters BT,CF, SD. Blood Angels-FT,BD,AV,AS,AE. and WS-Marauders, Rampagers ,storm lords, destroyers .
he did not control the military he had the biggest legion but the primarchs controlled their own legions. the imperial army controlled itself.

Brother Thuemoose
03-10-2007, 06:08
he did not control the military he had the biggest legion but the primarchs controlled their own legions. the imperial army controlled itself.

I wouldn't count too much on the Army/Navy units, since about half followed Horus, and there were those commanders who waited to see who would win before choosing who to join. At best, if there was another rebellion, the split up of the legions would also cause splits in the Army/Navy, preventing traitors from assisting the loyalists (loyal units would be doing their job by preventing the mortal humans from slowing down the Astartes from killing rebel marines).

BTW, when was the order to separate the Army(Guard) and the Navy issued. It wasn't part of the Codex, was it?

Hive Mind 33
03-10-2007, 06:20
I wouldn't count too much on the Army/Navy units, since about half followed Horus, and there were those commanders who waited to see who would win before choosing who to join. At best, if there was another rebellion, the split up of the legions would also cause splits in the Army/Navy, preventing traitors from assisting the loyalists (loyal units would be doing their job by preventing the mortal humans from slowing down the Astartes from killing rebel marines).

BTW, when was the order to separate the Army(Guard) and the Navy issued. It wasn't part of the Codex, was it?

I think he did separate it like the legions so no one person could control that much power and pull another heresy.

Wolflord Havoc
03-10-2007, 09:07
Guilliman did nothing for the imperium after the heresy. So, he stepped up and took control. Any of the primarchs could have. So he takes control of the imperium, forms the most useless legislative body ever, and then breaks up humanity's last hope of ever actually expanding like the Emperor wanted. I mean the fascist forces his ideas on his brothers. Especially the space wolves got a crappy end of the deal. Wouldn't the Imperium have been better off if the primarchs had formed a council, decided on the best course of action then just do it. I don't think the age of aposty would ever have happened if there had been even one full legion of marines to step in. So what we have are a bunch of little armies that, while great fighting on one planet have practically no force in what way the Imperium goes. Except the Ultramarines. Calgar just snaps his fingers and he had two legions at his command. There are so many chapters off the Ultramarines that if they united bing, another couple of legions. And none of the other Ultramarine chapters have any independence. they're so wrapped up in reading their pretty little book that when the Ultramarines do something they all follwo blindly.

Your absolutely right! He should have sat on Macragge and allowed the Imperium to collapse. :rolleyes:

The Space Wolves of all the 'legions' got the best Idea as they never Split (for Wolf Brothers? - I am suggesting that this was nothing more than a seperate Great Company - given the Wolves individual organisation who was to know the difference?).
After the Heresy only the Ultra Marines had the Strength to hold the Imperium together. The Emperor was no longer alive in the human sence of the word. The Iron Hands, Salamanders and Raven Guard had been kicked in on Istavaan with Ferrus Dead. The White Scars, Blood Angels and Imperial Fists were seriously depleted and Saguinius (sp?) had fallen. This left the Space Wolves, Dark Angels, and Ultra Marines.
The Space Wolves chased off after the traitors after securing Earth, The Dark Angels..well they left earth and returned to Caliban to deal with their own problems and this left Guilliman and his Ultra Marines to clean up the mess.

Guilliman recognised the threat that the massive legions presented to humanity and sought to make it so that no single force (from within) could threaten the security of the Imperium again.

As for the Ultra Marines being able to combine 'codex' chapters and recreating a legion sized force I suspect that their orthodoxy in terms of reading the great book stops them from doing just this - In fact I suspect that the Dark Angels are more likely to be able to do this especially given their combined strength and actions during the 13th Dark Crusade of several Dark Angel Chapters - what with the 'inner circle' under the overall command of Azrael.

Imperialis_Dominatus
03-10-2007, 09:42
the Wolf and the Lion were not horribly crushed either

I'd say the Lion's army was crushed fairly shortly after the Heresy, what with half their Legion turning against Lion'el Johnson (whatever his loyalty, don't get on me you DoA fans), and the destruction of their homeworld, and the scattering of half their Legion, who they hunt to this day.

The Space Wolves, well, in pretty good shape; somehow I don't see Russ as a diplomat/politician, though.

BrainFireBob
03-10-2007, 10:02
Based on fluff, the only real "threat" to Guilliman's proposed changes was Rogal Dorn, whose Legion was then thoroughly decimated in the Iron Cage.

Khan ended up in the Webway during the Scouring, Vulkan disappeared, Corax was pre-occupied rebuilding his Legion, Russ, like Dorn, bled his Legion during the Scouring and then disappeared himself- and the Wolves were always one of the smaller legions.

Also putting disparate pieces together, looks like Guilliman "field-tested" his Chapter design during the Scouring with the remnants of the Blood Angels (the Flesh Tearers at least were *immediately* founded after the Battle for Terra, and sent to harass the Traitors retreating to the Eye/reclaim worlds from them- the BA Second Founding chapters were founded so soon, in fact, that the Black Rage wasn't a known factor yet), and perhaps by how he segmented his command to deal with the myriad threats he was faced with.

brother alinski
03-10-2007, 10:15
Guilliman did hold a vote remeber, he came up with the idear but other primarchs supported it, dorn refused to split his forces but eventualy gave in.

Eetion
03-10-2007, 10:59
I believe it was part of the break up of the chapters when the Imp Army and Navy were made independent.


Guilliman did hold a vote remeber, he came up with the idear but other primarchs supported it, dorn refused to split his forces but eventualy gave in.
I think you will find it was a tie... There wasnt overwhelming support for the dex. But curiously no mention of Sanguinius, El Jonnson, were made, we may have had one side win.




Besides that, the Codex itself is actually a very solid tactical manual. I think some Marines vastly overstate just *how* solid (ie: Taking it to the letter, all the time, with no adaptation) - but the organizational style has obviously worked well; and it provides a battle plan for Marines even if they wind up leaderless. (For instance, say your Captain catches a bolt-shell in the head, and your sergeants Plasma Pistol overloads. If this were a Guard army, you may be panicking - but Marines? They've got a contingency. And then a contingency for if this contingency fails. And probably at least one more after that.)

Yet Alpharius supposedly slapped that tactical doctrine senseless, showing what a useless piece of junk it was even when Gulliman had been there to say 'there just guidelines remember'..... which i doubt, If Gulliman had advocated it a guidelines, then someone somewhere would have documented that was the case, as it seems the Primarchs words were recorded. I can imagine quite easily Gulliman wrote the codex went into a meeting with his commanders (which someone takes the minutes;)) and said "This is the Codex Astartes, this is the best method of Tactical Doctrine, and this is how you shall operate now"

brother alinski
03-10-2007, 11:36
I think you will find it was a tie... There wasnt overwhelming support for the dex. But curiously no mention of Sanguinius, El Jonnson, were made, we may have had one side win.

Sanguinius was dead, it was a dead lock but when Dorn gave in after a incident the the rest followed.

chris.seraphim
03-10-2007, 11:42
Guilliman's decsions were IMO designed to stop such a galaxy wide rebellion as had just been seen. Horus as Warmaster nominally controlled ALL Imperial miltary concerns, and the Primarchs had total control over their Expeditions and Legions, although would defer to one another for protocol, political or military reasons. Any one Expedition or Legion turning traitor would be a huge problem, and these would bve largely predicated on the fall of one man.

The Chapter system and the strictures of the Codex Astartes were designed firstly to turn the Asatrtes into a galaxy spanning 'fire brigade' rather than the speartip of conquest they had previously been, and secondly to ensure that no one man had a significant part of the Imperium's armed forces under his command.

As such it has been reasonably rare for large scale rebellions to occur since, with on a galactic timeline of 10'000. instances such as the Tyrant of Badab etc. being pretty damn rare.

So in that light, the policy was damned effective.

Did it blunt the Astartes teeth, and end any possibility of the final completion of the Great Crusade, at least in the forseeable future? Yes it did, and this sat poorly with the more...intense Primarchs.

However Guilliman had seen his entire universe fall apart, with him unable to alter or change the course things had taken, and decided that maintenance and safety was more important than more offensive and potentially more glorious AND disastrous route.

Whatever your thoughts on that, Guilliman certainly achieved his aims. No other loyal Primarch turned (as far as we know), and mass rebellions have been rare since the Codex.....

Eetion
03-10-2007, 12:53
Sanguinius was dead, it was a dead lock but when Dorn gave in after a incident the the rest followed.
Doh! forgot that Sanguinnius snuffed it, thats shameful, it really is.

It could be said that rather than Gulliman looking to for safety there is an equally viable case to state that he was distraught at missing the single greatest and crucial battle ever fought, and acted purely out of a desire to stamp his name on the rebuilding the Imperium, The Codex was his method of assigning himself a place alongside his brother primarchs who fought.

I admit that the former and acting out of a need to defend the Imperium is more likely, but i would be a suprised if tehre wasnt an element of self importance in there as well.

Brother Thuemoose
03-10-2007, 13:39
Doh! forgot that Sanguinnius snuffed it, thats shameful, it really is.

It could be said that rather than Gulliman looking to for safety there is an equally viable case to state that he was distraught at missing the single greatest and crucial battle ever fought, and acted purely out of a desire to stamp his name on the rebuilding the Imperium, The Codex was his method of assigning himself a place alongside his brother primarchs who fought.

I admit that the former and acting out of a need to defend the Imperium is more likely, but i would be a suprised if tehre wasnt an element of self importance in there as well.

But he wouldn't need to. Codex: Space Marines states that he and the Ultramarines were everywhere, fighting against traitors and alien invasions while the other legions were regrouping. Even if he never developed the Codex Astartes or split the legions, he would still go down in history as the man who held the Imperium together after the Heresy. The idea that he did it for fame is silly, given that he was aready famous amongst both the Imperium, and amongst the Traitor Legions for preventing the Imperium from falling and that the Codex was created after the Imperium was stable enough to survive without his constant attention.

Nargus
03-10-2007, 14:20
The reason there are so many Ultrasmurf successor chapters is because the smurf geneseed still has all 19 bits and is still pure (as is the Dark Angels, but that's not used for some unknown reason) so ALL new chapters are Smurf gened.

The Navy and Army did only separate when the legions split, each detatchment was under the command of a Legion until that point, and it was to ensure no one man (Horus..) controlled enough military might to tear the galaxy apart again.

And no mention of the Lion was made at the codex meeting because he was dragged into the warp during the Destruction of Caliban.

Feor
03-10-2007, 18:14
Also putting disparate pieces together, looks like Guilliman "field-tested" his Chapter design during the Scouring with the remnants of the Blood Angels (the Flesh Tearers at least were *immediately* founded after the Battle for Terra, and sent to harass the Traitors retreating to the Eye/reclaim worlds from them- the BA Second Founding chapters were founded so soon, in fact, that the Black Rage wasn't a known factor yet), and perhaps by how he segmented his command to deal with the myriad threats he was faced with.

Actually, Collected Visions mentions a "chapter" (though the exact name varied) of roughly 1000 space marines as a pre-heresy sub-division in most of the Legions. Eidolon, Saul Tarvits, and Lucius ("Lord Commanders") were Chapter commanders within the Emperor's Children, for example.

ryng_sting
03-10-2007, 18:26
Guilliman did nothing for the imperium after the heresy. So, he stepped up and took control. Any of the primarchs could have. So he takes control of the imperium, forms the most useless legislative body ever, and then breaks up humanity's last hope of ever actually expanding like the Emperor wanted.



No they couldn't. The Primarchs were warriors - not statesmen. Horus and Dorn, for all their talents in warfare, didn't know the first thing about running an Empire. Guilliman, raised by the among the finest diplomats, thinkers and politicians in the Imperium, did. He had centuries of experience of running anUltramar - a model system within the Imperium.

Guilliman was a pragmatist and, had he lived, it seems the temporary measures he set up to hold the Imperium together during the Harrowing would have been discontinued, and the Imperium could have looked outwards again. In the same circumstances, frankly, I fail to see how anyone could have done better.

The Ultramarines went on to provide two-thirds of all loyalist SM gene-seed because they were by far more of them than any other Legion - half of the post-heresy loyalists in the field were Ultramarines.

SonofUltramar
03-10-2007, 18:47
Guilliman did everything within his power to stop the Imperium falling into perpetual civil war, the Codex system was applied post Heresy where the Army was divided and the Legions split in attempt to stem the tide of cults springing up and the worlds that were still held by the Fell Powers.

The idea Guilliman did it to be remembered is laughable, as has been said he was already using every resource within his power to hold the Imperium together and I think that as a tactician/strategist Guilliman was the best.

The Ultramarines ahold no sway over any of their successor chapters, granted their is an Honour Company of Ultramarines formed from their own strength and that of their successors as an ongoing testamant to an Oath they took to protect the Cadian Gate. Calgar has no control over them but i'm sure he has a good dialogue with them much like Pugh with Kantor and Helbrecht and Azrael with the DA successors?

In case you didn't guess I like Ultramarines but also play Black Templars and IG and at the end of the day Guilliman is one of the best characters who had a massive impact on the 40K universe?

charlie_c67
03-10-2007, 18:50
Oh yay! Another SM/Guilliman bashing thread:rolleyes: We've got all this in another earlier thread. Go read that and you'll find out the Guilliman wasn't the loser/fool you imply in the initial text.