PDA

View Full Version : Can Empire hit hard?



Elric101
03-10-2007, 14:04
I really like Empire, and chaos as a secondary.

The only aspect I don't like of empire is that they don't seem to have units which hit really hard. Chaos have it in abundance with warriors/knights/lords/heroes etc.

So do empire have units which win by killing and not static combat resolution.

This includes ranged combat as well e.g. are 10 handgun shots really that devastating, do knights hit hard and fast, are pistoliers deadly with their pistol?

Basically, do the empire have the capability to wipe whole units off the board without relying on breaking them? Or should I just submit to the chaos gods and their power-hitting units and characters?

BarreBobby
03-10-2007, 14:06
knights hit hard and fast

Elric101
03-10-2007, 14:15
I'll sum it up differently.

Can empire have serious close combat punch?
Can empire have serious long-ranged firepower?

Or must we rely on static combat res. to win the day?

Festus
03-10-2007, 14:26
Empire can do both... scrap that, Empire can do all! That is the beauty of the list: They are Jacks of all trades, and Master of none.

They can hold with static CR, but there are Armies who do that better (Dwarfs et al.), they can be fast with Knights and Pistoliers and Flyers, but there are better suited armies, and so on...

They can do everything, and everything needs to be tuned to be good at it.

Festus

Lord Firmshaft
03-10-2007, 14:28
Well compared to Chaos that is ALL combat the Empire have to work as a whole. The missiles thin the enemy to weaken them (outnumber, lose ranks etc) Then when the knights hit they arent stopped on the charge. Think of it like this Chaos NEED to kill losts as they cant thin the enemy much before (i know they have magic but then so does the Empire) So rather than looking at the parts of the army one at a time under the microscope look at the whole thing

T10
03-10-2007, 14:32
The Empire army (barring Dogs of War) lacks units of flyers and Ogre-sized troops. It generally rates "OK" in most other respects.

-T10

Finnigan2004
03-10-2007, 14:36
I don't think that anyone has mentioned it yet, but the empire's firepower can be very good. This means that it is pretty good at everything else and really good at shooting. Lots of good artillery and ranged weapons.

Elric101
03-10-2007, 15:00
Ok, that the empire sound a lot better now.

One thing that has always interested me is the detatchment system, is it fun and rewarding to use in your experience? Does it even the odds vs. tough opponents?

It sounds very useful.

Belakor
03-10-2007, 15:36
One thing that has always interested me is the detatchment system, is it fun and rewarding to use in your experience? Does it even the odds vs. tough opponents?

Good players will see to it that the detachment loose their negating of ranks ability. That does not mean they suck, only that you have to find other uses for it. For instance I use mine as bait when I face of against a good player, or diverters etc. Against less talented folks however, they kick ass.

If you mean against tough armies, make sure you have detachment that survives (like swordmen) or, heaven's forbid, Halberdiers (may have use here if you aren't a WAAC person).

Hywel
03-10-2007, 17:02
The Empire can hit exceptionally hard if you gear your list in such a manner. A Grandmaster wearing the laurels of victory, leading his inner circle knights and possibly even accompanied by a hate-inducing priest will be able to steamroll through most units, especially when said targets have been softened by artillery fire or are desperately avoiding a tank on the rampage...

As others have said, you can gear the list to do whatever you like. Empire have a unit for every occasion and if you want to focus on one aspect of play then you simply select the appropriate units.
Personally I believe an Empire army works best when you use all the disparate elements in combination but that doesn't mean to say specialist forces are ineffective.

As for detachments - they are excellent and you'll find many good threads in the tactics section regarding their use. Getting used to using them is a steep learning curve however, so don't get frustrated early on if they don't work out for you.

zak
03-10-2007, 19:30
The Empire is the most flexible army in the game. It has access to some of the best shooters, both on foot and mounted, good skirmishers, decent infantry, good cavalry both light and heavy, excellent artillery for all occasions and can use all 8 colleges of magic. All in all a good army that can take on all comers and do well with little practice.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
03-10-2007, 20:06
Ok, that the empire sound a lot better now.

One thing that has always interested me is the detatchment system, is it fun and rewarding to use in your experience? Does it even the odds vs. tough opponents?

It sounds very useful.

Yes, and no at the same time.

You have to be committed with it. I find once I've set up my Detachments, they really don't favour too much manouvering around. Also, your opponent is pretty foolish to commit to a combat where it's so blatantly in your favour, so expect lots of distraction units trying to tie up the Detachments first, so his big unit can massacre your Parent unit.

However, even this is to your advantage, as by sticking to your formation, you are, in a way, dictating his approach to your lines, which slows his line, neatly allowing your range units a precious extra turn (sometimes two if your lucky!) to whittle away!

bigbear bailey
03-10-2007, 21:20
A unit of great swords with a preist and a wide base (a unit that is 7 wide and 3 ranks deep with warbanner to make up for the loss) can chop a bloody path through some armies... I have had a unit beat sauris like they were small children...

I could go on all day about how the kill the hell out of stuff but you have to realize that unlike chaos, the empire has certain units that are made to do their own tasks... Like the mortar! I have had it destroy whole units of toughness three armies but do nothing to Orks (so I shot his goblins ha-ha)... It all depends on what your firing at...

soots
04-10-2007, 00:51
I play empire and they cannot hit hard apart from your typical knights and characters. No S4 or T4 troops, no units with 2A (freecompany sux), only 2 units with WS4 which is the norm in WFB.

I dont know what the use of empire infantry is now vs armies like high elves and chaos where you are basically giving them vp when you field your regimentary units. Its forcing empire players to either lose with fluffy armies or play gunline/knightriders.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
04-10-2007, 01:17
No S4 troops? Whats a Halberds strength then?

Empire can box well above their weight. Just make sure you know the theory of how *your* army is going to operate as more than the sum of it's parts! Free Company = 5 points a pop, for 2S3 attacks each...whats so sucky about that?

Holy Crap! Manticores!
04-10-2007, 01:59
I don't think that anyone has mentioned it yet, but the empire's firepower can be very good. This means that it is pretty good at everything else and really good at shooting. Lots of good artillery and ranged weapons.Yeah, their firepower is capable of destroying ranks prior to combat. The Hellblaster is ridiculous. They have good cannons, can bring handguns, crossbows, and archers (who are capable of skirmishing, damn them), which can put a pounding on T3 armies (and probably tougher armies too.)

When they do get to combat, they have a few units that are potentially nasty. My most reviled is the war Altar... T5, (?) AS, 4+ WS, and UNBREAKABLE. ( :cheese: ) In and of itself, the Popemobile isn't going to win any combats, but it will hold up the opposition for half the game... if you can't counter-charge by then, you've failed.

Khorghan
04-10-2007, 03:52
The empire can hit hard, but submit TO CHAOS!!!

soots
04-10-2007, 04:42
No S4 troops? Whats a Halberds strength then?

Empire can box well above their weight. Just make sure you know the theory of how *your* army is going to operate as more than the sum of it's parts! Free Company = 5 points a pop, for 2S3 attacks each...whats so sucky about that?

Halberds +1S.

Free Company. Ws3, S3, T3, butt nekkid :)

Empire infantry do not hit hard, and they are not supposed to hit hard.

I always take in Swordsmen as they are the most resilient infantry we have. Sometimes halberd detachment but usually more swordsmen.

Empire infantry works on: main unit stay put, detachment add combat pts. Minimise casualties and win via combat resolution.

Thats why they gave us the detachment rules, to make up for our lacklustre melee powers. Infact, next to tk, i would say empire infantry is the worse at causing melee casualties in the game.
Skaven have censor bearers and plagemonks. Greenskins have orcs. Elves have movement and finess, VC have ghouls and gg, tk is worse if you exclude ushabti.

If you're expecting lots of casualties caused by infantry you're gonna be disappointed. Try Chaos, HE or Lizardmend if your going after big numbers :)

Elric101
04-10-2007, 06:56
Interesting replies, I', really liking chaos, and I already have their army book which is a plus. Problem is that I can't see them doing too well against the armies at the club.

Everyone plays bretonnia, lizardmen,Orcs and Goblins or dwarves and a couple of VC, no chaos or empire.

So can chaos be competitive vs. bretonnians and lizzies? (I'm worried about them the most) Or would empire be a better choice with the cannons etc?

One more quick question, are chaos the nastiest Close combat army in the game, or should I look elsewhere?

CaptScott
04-10-2007, 12:38
No Elric101, fight the temptation - go with the Empire!

Empire can be awesome! Large cheap infantry blocks, super powerful detatchment rules, knights galore, uber-flagellants, blackpowder weapons, and one of the best army-specific forums out there!

(and yes, I'm an Empire player, but someone has to save you from the taint of chaos...)

Reflex
04-10-2007, 12:52
i dont care what any stunties player will say, but empire have the best Gunline army. Go Empire...

to many mutated Chaos Tzeentch loving KhorneFlakes out there.

blurred
04-10-2007, 13:05
soots, Inner circle knights have S4.

Inner circle knights are very hitty. Knightly orders' S6 is nothing to sneer at and white wolves' constant S5 is very deadly.

soots
05-10-2007, 00:55
I know theyre S4-5-6.

But Knights are in the same boat as Gunline stuff. Youd love to take more, but its just not in the spirit of the game. Ive always beleived that Knights and Gunline are a very very competitive army, but they should be the minority of your army, the majority should be made of infantry, and empire infantry suck at causing casualties.

For someone that wants an army that hits hard, id have to say its not empire.

Lord Tzeentch
05-10-2007, 02:27
i dont care what any stunties player will say, but empire have the best Gunline army. Go Empire...


Kiss my @$$ Dwarfs have the best gun line, the best i tells ya!:p

Can Empire hit hard. Well they have a tank, I rest my case.

Elric101
05-10-2007, 03:08
Very interesting discussion here,

The reason Chaos appeals so much is that I've never seen one of any flavour at my club. Same goes for empire, but I already play IG in 40k and want to change a little to a force which when in combat, annhilates most other units.

Chaos seems to fit the bill perfectly as they are unheard of at the club and sound like a lot of fun to play.

Though empire are still an option if I can get past the anorexic hunch-backed gorrilla models of the state troop and how GW persists painting them in 2-colour pjama patterns IMO.

One question first. In 40k IG have the whole normal men vs. the nastiest guys out there fluff, do empire have this too. Or are they more fanatical, crazed religious nuts with gunpowder and steel?

Ofaloaf
05-10-2007, 03:32
Very interesting discussion here,

The reason Chaos appeals so much is that I've never seen one of any flavour at my club. Same goes for empire, but I already play IG in 40k and want to change a little to a force which when in combat, annhilates most other units.

Chaos seems to fit the bill perfectly as they are unheard of at the club and sound like a lot of fun to play.

Though empire are still an option if I can get past the anorexic hunch-backed gorrilla models of the state troop and how GW persists painting them in 2-colour pjama patterns IMO.

One question first. In 40k IG have the whole normal men vs. the nastiest guys out there fluff, do empire have this too. Or are they more fanatical, crazed religious nuts with gunpowder and steel?
They're a bit more toned down on the whole "man versus everything else" theme, considering there's plenty other human nations in Warhammer Fantasy, but they still are the ones shafted by Chaos after Kislev, and so have this fanaticism which is lacking from some other countries.

Find 5th ed. or 6th ed. Empire State Troops in the dusty and abandoned corner of you local hobbyshop, or go look on eBay. They're much better-looking than the newest ones.

empireguard
05-10-2007, 03:56
Kiss my @$$ Dwarfs have the best gun line, the best i tells ya!:p

Can Empire hit hard. Well they have a tank, I rest my case.

Pooh, Dwarf cannons only do D3 wounds and have a much shorter range. Plus you still use Bolt throwers it’s so primitive:o. Sure you stuff is more “reliable” but you lose power to do so.;)

Empire is powerful in combat you can’t say otherwise. Compare them to other races “basic” troop and they will do well almost every time. Also as Lord Tzeentch said tank

Reflex
05-10-2007, 04:06
Can Empire hit hard. Well they have a tank, I rest my case.

the STank is good, but not that good.

its really easy to destroy because of the steam point system. its really a topic for another day, but its not worth its points.

@ Elric: The best thing i can think for you to do, is to play a few games of fantasy at about 750-1000 points of each army and then deice which army you like better.

Elric101
05-10-2007, 15:03
Empire seem like a nice force with awesome potential, if only the models were up to the mark that chaos are.

If I don't use the feather swordsmen hats, and paint them without stripes (just one colour) I figure they might look okay? Has anyone tried this? Pics would be nice too!

Lord Tzeentch
05-10-2007, 18:35
Pooh, Dwarf cannons only do D3 wounds and have a much shorter range. Plus you still use Bolt throwers it’s so primitive:o. Sure you stuff is more “reliable” but you lose power to do so.;)



So thats why we can have magic warmachines ha! Plus bolt throwers are cool don't dis our style dog:D

Overall if you like the Chaos models better then get them. I get armys that i like the look of and enjoy painting. Plus Chaos are much better and have all the hitting power you want in Close Combat:evilgrin: Follow Tzeentch he's the God you want.

Helblaster_of_Sigmar
05-10-2007, 19:51
Ok, I'm not sure why, but no one has really answered the OP's question like they should. Plain and simple, Empire can lay down the heat, or absorb the charge. Hell, they can even do both, plus surplus shooting. Want an example?

Arch Lector on foot, plus two Warrior Priest mounted, with 5 man Knightly order units (HAtred plus st5 1+AS).

Arch Lector joins a unit of 25 Greatswords, give him the VHS and the Greatswords two detachments of ten archers each. Screens are beautiful things.

The kicker? two units of 18 flagellants in a 6x3 formation with profit of doom sharing the Greatswords screening archers. Back this up with two more units of Knightly Orders (5 men) and two units of 5-7 Outriders and you have:

32 Frenzied, flail-wielding troops who can martyr themselves to gainhatred, automatic CR and other things, are unbreakable, and are supported by a large block of S5 Hatred troops, who are stubborn. Throw in 30-42 s4 armour piercing BS4 shots per turn, along with two units of Knightly Orders who have hatred and a priest, and two throw away units of knightly orders, and you can redirect, hammer, shoot, and just plan slam your way to a victory against anyone.

This list has worked well against Weeds, Skellies, VC, Dwarves, Dark Elve,s Orcs + Goblins (but who doesn't?) and Lizzies. Those who used to be the bane of Empire now tremble before us. I would have taken a Popemobile, but people whine enough about this list as is.

Reflex
06-10-2007, 01:08
Empire seem like a nice force with awesome potential, if only the models were up to the mark that chaos are.

If I don't use the feather swordsmen hats, and paint them without stripes (just one colour) I figure they might look okay? Has anyone tried this? Pics would be nice too!

it sounds like you want to play empire for there stats, but you want to play chaos for there models.

i am more of a hobby fan than a game fan, so i would go chaos if i were you.

Belakor
06-10-2007, 08:52
I dont know what the use of empire infantry is now vs armies like high elves and chaos where you are basically giving them vp when you field your regimentary units. Its forcing empire players to either lose with fluffy armies or play gunline/knightriders.

What? You even know how to use them right?

True against Khorne warriors or chosen, likewise Swordmasters, the average Empire soldier will be toast. But with the right back-up, correctly used detachments, and by far cheaper troops, the Empire will still come out on top. We rely on CR and numbers, not casualties.

Besides, you can have a few blocks of soldiers and still afford infantery killers like Knights and Guns. The others usually can't.

Elric101
06-10-2007, 11:31
it sounds like you want to play empire for there stats, but you want to play chaos for there models.

This is definitely true. I like the basic idea of the way Empire plays, but on a miniature and fluff aspect I much prefer chaos. So at the moment Chaos seem to be it, and a big bonus is that they're very uncommon at my local club (I haven't seen a single player yet)

Reflex
07-10-2007, 07:02
This is definitely true. I like the basic idea of the way Empire plays, but on a miniature and fluff aspect I much prefer chaos. So at the moment Chaos seem to be it, and a big bonus is that they're very uncommon at my local club (I haven't seen a single player yet)

If you ever show up to a tourny, these are the 3 armies that are always there in numbers.

Skaven Skye
Wood elves
Tzeentch

none of them win because they score so low of sportsman ship as they get abused way to much.

CountZero
07-10-2007, 20:48
Flagellants are a infantry unit that gets as tough as they come. Frenzy, Hatred, Reroll wounds, Eternal Frenzy, Unbreakable, Flails, and you can have 2units in a 1000 point army.

Cannons, kill those big things really well and if you can guess ranges, they are deadly.

Hellfire, Mortar, Steam Tank .... Death and destruction, need i say more.

The knights in my book are a bit "bleh", but hey , theyre human.