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View Full Version : So I had an idea regarding special movement types...



mistformsquirrel
03-10-2007, 23:07
And I'm kinda wondering what people think.

Basically, I haven't quit ever understood Slow and Purposeful, nor fleet of foot.

After all - if you're faster or slower than normal, why does this make you move more randomly than normal? If you're faster, shouldn't you be able to move faster all the time? And if you're slow and steady, shouldn't you always be slow and steady, rather than "Sometimes I'm as fast as a normal person, other times I can barely move!"?

So here was my idea.

What if units with Fleet of Foot simply were able to sacrifice their Shooting Phase for an extra 4" move? And in the case of Slow and Purposeful, its always a 4" move?

Then, for the very rare things that make sense to have "random" movement (like Chaos Spawn); we could simply have a rule called "Random Movement" which would be as flexible as necessary?

This wouldn't affect difficult terrain btw - terrain after all slows you down differently depending on where you enter it, how careful you are going through, etc... I can see why thats random. I just don't get why you can't move at a constant rate out in the open if you're Slow and Purposeful or Fleet of Foot!

>.> Thoughts? Ideas?

Gen.Steiner
03-10-2007, 23:08
Or, you could just bring back the movement characteristic... ;)

mistformsquirrel
03-10-2007, 23:13
Or, you could just bring back the movement characteristic... ;)

<'x'> Well I'd thought of that. But that apparently makes WAY too much sense <,< so I thought I'd at least examine 'what we have right now' <'x'>

catbarf
03-10-2007, 23:13
Ding! Steiner wins the prize!

blackcherry
03-10-2007, 23:15
NO! Bad Gen.Steiner!;) i like that 40k has no movement characteristic. separates it from other gw games(bar lotr of course). as for the whole random movement, i like it, though that may be because i can roll well with them:). anyway, it adds to some of the luck of 40K, which is half the fun, and reduced 40K from being more powergamy than it could be.

Greatoliver
03-10-2007, 23:18
Imagine a M value in 40K:

"But why aren't Tau faster than Imperial Guard? They're thinner!"
"Space Marines are the fastest"
"Faster than Gaunts, you wish"
"Actually, Dark Eldar are the quickest-"
"-Only with their Raiders!"

Gen.Steiner
03-10-2007, 23:18
... random movement ... adds to some of the luck of 40K, which is half the fun, and reduced 40K from being more powergamy than it could be.

Wargames should not be mostly luck. They should be about tactics, and plans, and having them fall apart not because you rolled a 1 or your enemy rolled a 6 on FoF, but because your tactics didn't work and your troops couldn't hit a barn from the inside...

Movement characteristics don't encourage powergaming, either! :p

bhusus
03-10-2007, 23:21
I like this idea of bringing back movement...I think I'll discuss it with my gaming group and see what they say...are people willing to put forth their own ideas what movements would be because I'd be interested to see them...if you can take the heat that is...can you?

Melchor
03-10-2007, 23:23
I think part of the fun is randomness.
In real life, things don't always work out as planned and the fact that we're using dice in our games reflects that I think.

Having said that, bringing back the Mr. Movement Value would be a nice touch. But I think he's gone for good. He was nice to have around, but I don't REALLY miss him.

mistformsquirrel
03-10-2007, 23:27
Imagine a M value in 40K:

"But why aren't Tau faster than Imperial Guard? They're thinner!"
"Space Marines are the fastest"
"Faster than Gaunts, you wish"
"Actually, Dark Eldar are the quickest-"
"-Only with their Raiders!"

I honestly don't think it'd be that hard.

Humans and Space Marines - M6 (Space Marines would be faster naked, but Power Armor is bulky, even if its increases your strength)

Tau - M6 (Again, faster than a normal man naked, but wearing unpowered Carapace armor is VERY bulky)

Eldar - M8 (Faster than humans, and given 40k's movement scale, I think they'd be higher than 1" faster than humans); Perhaps Striking Scorpions would be down to M6 or 7 though due to their heavy armor, same with Dark Reapers and other 3+ save units

Tyranids - M8 for most of the small stuff, M6 for the big ones like Carnifexes.

Necrons - M4, but with a "Slow and Purposeful" like rule, so they can fire their Gauss weapons full range on the move. (Obviously the Wraiths and Destroyers are an exception to this)

Dark Eldar - Same as Eldar, except since they have no 3+ save units I'm aware of, they'd probably be universally M8.

Etc Etc...

Its really not too hard I don't think >.>

mistformsquirrel
03-10-2007, 23:28
I like this idea of bringing back movement...I think I'll discuss it with my gaming group and see what they say...are people willing to put forth their own ideas what movements would be because I'd be interested to see them...if you can take the heat that is...can you?

I posted fluff for female Marines. <.< I can take just about anything at this point <,<;; >.>;;

Cry of the Wind
03-10-2007, 23:28
I like this idea as simple way to use the existing rules to have more uniform modification of movement. Having a movement characteristic would be of course the best way to solve the movement issue. The one thing you'd have to be careful with and one of the reasons I think the 40k has the movement it has, is that the game is about moving around the table to claim objectives and such. If too many troops were to move slower than 6" they would not be able to take much part in the battle. WHFB gets around that by having marching to get the troops up quicker (and also doesn't require the same amount of movement overall, sure where your guys move is extremely important but it's more about angles and flanks than running to claim that building/hill/whatever over on the other side of the board).

Oh and blackcherry, LOTR has different movement rates for different troops, humans may all go 6" but goblins, hobbits, eagles, and other such creatures move different amounts as standard.

bhusus
03-10-2007, 23:45
Yeah it would be necessary to come to an agreement of what movement represented, as if 'Marching' were an option and we were trying to keep the regular numbers the same, movement would be 3 as this would also conform to the norm of a 6" charge. The problem may come in with beast models however that are supposed to have a 12" charge but a regular 6" move as well as bikes/jumppacks which have 12" movement but only a 6" charge - now if these 2 units were downgraded to the same type, 6" would be their M stat allowing for a 12" charge. These kinds of considerations would be really important.

Marstfu
03-10-2007, 23:47
Random = Good.

Represents things like staying low (thus moving slower), or just being slightly encumbered in -something-. Who knows..?

The_Outsider
03-10-2007, 23:50
Dark Eldar - Same as Eldar, except since they have no 3+ save units I'm aware of, they'd probably be universally M8.



Talos (which is infantry) and incubi both have a 3+ save.

mistformsquirrel
03-10-2007, 23:52
Random = Good.

Represents things like staying low (thus moving slower), or just being slightly encumbered in -something-. Who knows..?

Then why don't non-Fleet non-Slow and Purposeful units move randomly? >.< Surely they stay low, or are sometimes encumbered by their equipment.

Cry of the Wind
03-10-2007, 23:58
One thing to remember also is that the 6" of movement is supposed to represent cautious advance and the taking of the odd shot here or there. Difficult terrain rolls represent the slowing down in harsher terrain conditions where troopers need to be even more careful than normal/are bogged down more.

fdesrochers
04-10-2007, 00:03
Personally I prefer the randomness of Fleet and SAP. It represents the general ability of the race to either be faster or slower than normal, the random roll determining whether the unit found a tricky piece of terrain and limited their 'fleet moves' and a good SAP roll being that they found the ground not particularly difficult to cross.

Yes, the randomness may wreak havoc in the player's tactics, but this should already be accounted for. Banking on a 6 for Fleet before charging, or banking on the SAP roll coming up near maximum is not tactics - it's wishful thinking. Like real life, the ground sometimes gets rough going and these rolls help demonstrate the effect very, very well.

;francois

FateofChaos
04-10-2007, 00:07
Slow moving could be, the heavy armor and sun light makes them hot and they move slower when there out of the sun maybe rolling a 5 or 6 they move normal. Fleet, could being there little race star tracks that over did them selfs and wana take a break.

mistformsquirrel
04-10-2007, 00:08
Er... but again >.> if you're taking terrain into account, why not just ya know... use the actual difficult terrain of the board? Cause if the ground is perfectly open for everyone else, why is someone who's fleet of foot moving randomly there? Same with Slow and Purposeful >.<

The_Outsider
04-10-2007, 00:29
Can you run at olympic speed? that what fleet (typically) represents.

The random movement coudl be there to represent the mix between extreme running and having the guts to sprint down a battlefield.

mistformsquirrel
04-10-2007, 00:36
See, that's a better explanation. I still don't buy it myself; but I think thats far better than saying "Well they're staying low" or "its the terrain" - those other two things are already well represented.

<,< And no I definitely can't run that fast... good grief, I'm a bit pudgy, I'd hurt myself running too fast!

Gen.Steiner
04-10-2007, 06:08
The thing is that movement values work; just look at WFB, 40K 2nd Edition, LotR, Epic, Necromunda, Mordheim... etc etc.

Random movement and the inane concept that everyone moves at exactly the same speed despite one of them being a one-legged Guardsman and the other being a six-legged monstrosity from beyond the stars are barking mad. I put up with them but I would much prefer to see a return to 2nd Edition statlines where units were differentiated not by special rules (in the main) but by their stats. You move faster? Higher M. And so on.

blackroyal
04-10-2007, 07:19
There is no way my guants would be moving "cautiously". That is unless they had free will or something... oh ya, they're gaunts...

I would like a movement stat. Untill then, I'll try for "6's".

sebster
04-10-2007, 08:47
I honestly don't think it'd be that hard.

Humans and Space Marines - M6 (Space Marines would be faster naked, but Power Armor is bulky, even if its increases your strength)

Tau - M6 (Again, faster than a normal man naked, but wearing unpowered Carapace armor is VERY bulky)

Eldar - M8 (Faster than humans, and given 40k's movement scale, I think they'd be higher than 1" faster than humans); Perhaps Striking Scorpions would be down to M6 or 7 though due to their heavy armor, same with Dark Reapers and other 3+ save units

Tyranids - M8 for most of the small stuff, M6 for the big ones like Carnifexes.

Necrons - M4, but with a "Slow and Purposeful" like rule, so they can fire their Gauss weapons full range on the move. (Obviously the Wraiths and Destroyers are an exception to this)

Dark Eldar - Same as Eldar, except since they have no 3+ save units I'm aware of, they'd probably be universally M8.

Etc Etc...

Its really not too hard I don't think >.>

It can be a lot simpler than that. If you have slow and purposeful you move 4”, if you have fleet you can make a fleet move of 3”. The averages for each roll are a little higher, but you’re gaining a reliable move where you previously had an unreliable move, so it probably breaks even. Everything else just moves its regular 6”.

There, no more random movement.


Yeah it would be necessary to come to an agreement of what movement represented, as if 'Marching' were an option and we were trying to keep the regular numbers the same, movement would be 3 as this would also conform to the norm of a 6" charge. The problem may come in with beast models however that are supposed to have a 12" charge but a regular 6" move as well as bikes/jumppacks which have 12" movement but only a 6" charge - now if these 2 units were downgraded to the same type, 6" would be their M stat allowing for a 12" charge. These kinds of considerations would be really important.

That’s roughly how it used to work, back in 2nd ed, but the approach had problems. In second edition you could either walk 4” and shoot your gun, or you could run 8” and not shoot. This produced the problem of any unit that wanted to assault never, ever shooting. All those orks running around with guns, and they never shot them because it was always better to run as fast as you could.

To fix this the movement stat and the optional movement speeds were cut, and replaced with a simple 6” move for everything, as well as weapon types – rapid fire, assault and heavy. Good stuff, as now you could give any unit designed to assault the enemy an assault gun and he’ll fire the thing as he moves up the board.

But then as the game developed it became apparent that a 6” move wasn’t really enough to reach assault, and GW responded by giving the fleet rule to more and more units. Now everything that’s expected to run across the board and assault things has fleet, which puts us back where we started, anything that assaults doesn’t shoot. Only now there’s also random rolls as well. I like the system, but it’s an odd piece of design history and not really what GW would have planned when they started the new movement system.


The thing is that movement values work; just look at WFB, 40K 2nd Edition, LotR, Epic, Necromunda, Mordheim... etc etc.

Random movement and the inane concept that everyone moves at exactly the same speed despite one of them being a one-legged Guardsman and the other being a six-legged monstrosity from beyond the stars are barking mad. I put up with them but I would much prefer to see a return to 2nd Edition statlines where units were differentiated not by special rules (in the main) but by their stats. You move faster? Higher M. And so on.

There isn’t really much point in going back to the movement stat, I don’t think those rules ever produced much differentiation on the gaming table. Eldar could move an extra inch or run an extra two, and I can’t really say that it ever really made that much of a difference on the field – not compared to WHFB where the extra charge range was hugely important. In the current ruleset faster units have fleet, which represent an extra 50% movement on average, and that’s the kind of level that makes a significant tactical difference on the gaming table.

Going back to giving 4” and 5” movement stats would probably satisfy a lot of the people that love extra detail in their codices, but I don’t think it would make any meaningful difference on the tabletop.

destroyerlord
04-10-2007, 10:43
I don't see the problem with the current rules for movement. What is the problem with random movement? Why change it at all, when it is just going to be something that requires an update for every codex, and more new rules to learn and get used to. Will it actually add anything new to the gaming experience?

gLOBS
04-10-2007, 11:53
I wish all units had random movement or all units had a fixed M characteristic. Alot of firebase armies can reliably set up on the front DZ and move back 6" a turn without fear of something that moves at the same pace. I also like foregoing shooting to make a run move.

The sheer ability to have a decision to make what kind of move do I want to make or risk would give the game an incredible tactical edge.

bhusus
04-10-2007, 13:58
I don't see the problem with the current rules for movement. What is the problem with random movement? Why change it at all, when it is just going to be something that requires an update for every codex, and more new rules to learn and get used to. Will it actually add anything new to the gaming experience?

I plan on playtesting it personally after discussing it with my gaming group and I'll let you know if it actually adds to game play or hinders it...now considering how often I play, I wouldn't be holding my breath.

RoguePariah
04-10-2007, 14:53
the problem, as I see it, to going back to having movement stats is that it makes the gameplay more bulky than it needs to be. giving all eldar a movement of 8, for example, may fit some peoples notions of how the race should be, but when it comes down to it it's kind of rediculous.

first of all, different movements for different armies would invalidate a lot of the game ballance that GW is "trying" to develope between armies.

second it would also cause upheaval within army lists as unit X now is a better choice than units Y and Z

third, I don't relish the Idea of having to remember crankloads of different movement values in order to make a decent tactical decision when playing against my opponent. oh... your genestealers move 9" a turn? dang, I thought it was 7

fourth, we already have different movements in the form of unit types, bikes, jetbikes, jump troops, jet packs, beasts, you get my point.

and fifth, even if I did agree with the idea it would take too blinkin long to implement, as it can't simply be redone in a new 40k edition because each of the codex's would need to be revised or heaven forbid FAQ'd all at the same time. Think about that, and cringe in fear.



now all that having been said, I wouldn't be put off by getting rid of some random movement, like fleet or slow and purposeful. however some random movement fits in perfectly, like fall back moves, hit and run, and consolidation.

Iracundus
04-10-2007, 15:17
If someone has trouble remembering a simple thing like a Movement stat, they should have equal if not more trouble remembering their troops' WS or BS or varied Strengths of the different weapons. If someone has that much trouble keeping a number in their head, they should be playing a simpler game like checkers or rock, paper, scissors.

RoguePariah
04-10-2007, 15:26
but its not just remembering a simple set of movement stats for your army.
its the movements for his army, which is different from her army which is different from...

the point being that its not hard to remember a simple stat, but that trying to remember lots of different stats just makes the game more complicated (in my opinion in a bad way) and prolongs the movement phase which already takes up a good chunk of the game. esp with swarms

ReclecteR
04-10-2007, 15:31
Agreed that movement shouldnt be that hard to remember, but I think there's a better way to represent it. I always thought it was odd that even though you have an Initiative of 8 in CC, you still move the same distance as a Necron, with an In 2 :wtf:. I think that a unit's initiative should effect how fast it moves... though that would mean GW needs to think a bit more :rolleyes:. Maybe do somthing like "units can move at their Initiative value, or not shoot and go an extra half of their In value in movement". In the current game, this would allow stealers to travel 9", but necrons only 3" (and then not shoot), so the initiative values would have to be ammended.

Gen.Steiner
04-10-2007, 16:44
but its not just remembering a simple set of movement stats for your army.
its the movements for his army, which is different from her army which is different from...

The same goes for Strength, Toughness, Wounds, etc etc. Your argument doesn't stand up. Sorry.

As for implementation, it would take one (1) free to download data sheet with a list of all the units in the game and their new M stat. It'd fit onto one sheet of A4 I reckon.

slickis
04-10-2007, 16:51
Random = Good.

Represents things like staying low (thus moving slower), or just being slightly encumbered in -something-. Who knows..?

spot on in my mind.

slow and purposeful represents the fact that you are indeed, slow by your own choosing and purposeful in your actions. rolling a 1 could represent actions like "holy crap guys, we're getting shot at from both fronts, keep your head low and stay covered", where a 6 could be "<friendly squad> is laying down covering fire, run for it to the side of that bunker!"

etc.

every rule works when you have an imagination ;D

SquishySquig
04-10-2007, 17:44
:skull: To me it seems much simpler at this stage to modify the universal special rules (especially if there is a Version 4.5 on the way) than to do the movement value and I'm kinda dubious that the movement value will have that much impact on the tabletop to make it worthwhile. However I think I see potential for both camps to be satisfied with a modification the to the randomness of the SaP and the Fleet. Having been forced to play some d20 there is an option in it to simply take 10 (or 20) instead of rolling the dice in some instances. What if the Fleet and SaP allowed the player to either simply take a 3" move or roll the dice (declared before measuring of course) that way people who want random can do random and people who want to take a chance can take a chance depending on the situation and all. It's easy to remember, but gives a degree of reliability and can either reward you or rape you when you need (want) to take a chance. :skull:

mistformsquirrel
04-10-2007, 21:32
Well my original suggestion remember <,< was to simply make Slow and Purposeful and Fleet of Foot into static bonuses to movement, as I found it really stupid that they were random. (It just... doesn't make any damn sense to me)

The Movement value thing (to me) makes even more sense, but I understand the reluctance to go that far with it; which is why it wasn't my original suggestion.

Ozendorph
04-10-2007, 21:57
I'm all for the return of the movement stat, though I do favor FoF remaining as a special rule with a random effect.

In my mind, some troops will be naturally faster than others (reflected by the M stat), but certain exceptional units will be able to forfeit their shooting for an additional burst of speed beyond normal movement rates. That FoF "burst" should stay random to parallel the random effects of shooting that it is replacing.

You could say this "top speed" is affected by any number of minute terrain details/wind/whatever, and thus the random result.

Gen.Steiner
13-10-2007, 17:35
I'm all for the return of the movement stat, though I do favor FoF remaining as a special rule with a random effect.

DING DING DING! Ozendorph wins the prize.

FoF needs to be removed from a large number of units, really, and Movement values need to come back in. 40K v. 5 perhaps? :p

EarlGrey
13-10-2007, 18:23
Ah! The vagaries of battle are much like dice rolls. :)

A fleet roll, I think, represent various effects during the battle that will prevent them from making it all the way. The battle isn't completely static as you carefully move your troops (who are no doubt posed standing upright). It calls for imagination, and you have to remember that they don't possess the God like knowledge of the enemy's positions!

I enjoy being in the position where I need to make that fleet roll far enough to make it into cover, or into charge range... and then fail.
What you have to imagine, is that if in the next turn that unit is cut down, you can imagine them being cut down during their fleet move and that is why they didn't make it. They didn't just stop and stand there while the enemy takes their shots.
It paints the wonderful image of a desperate charge that goes wrong. Maybe "wonderful" isn't quite the word... :skull:

Cheesolith
13-10-2007, 18:52
SaP should not be random. If anything it should be the most accurate style.