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sqri
03-09-2005, 12:07
Hi

Do Wolf Hunts, Eagle's Cry and Beast Cowers spells from Lore of Beasts affect Kroxigors, Terradons, Salamanders?

T10
03-09-2005, 12:52
Hi

Do Wolf Hunts, Eagle's Cry and Beast Cowers spells from Lore of Beasts affect Kroxigors, Terradons, Salamanders?

Terradons, yes.
Kroxigors, no.
Salamanders, yes and no.

As the spells state they only affect cavalry, chariots, ridden single monsters, unridden single monsters and swarms.

Kroxigors are not monsters.

Salamanders simply fall outside these categories as long as it is in a unit with other salamanders or handlers.

-T10

Porksta
03-09-2005, 14:45
But Salamanders are neither a monster, cav, ridden monster, or swarm?

T10
03-09-2005, 17:02
If a Salamander is suddenly operating on his own without other models he qualifies as a single unridden monster in the same manner as a lone Great Eagle.

-T10

Major Defense
03-09-2005, 17:09
Salamanders have 3 wounds and are on a monster-sized base and I think they even have a unit strength of 3. So why are they not considered monsters?

T10
03-09-2005, 17:22
I believe they do count as monsters. However, while they are in a unit with their handlers (or other models) they are not single monsters. They simply fall outside the scope of the spells target definition.

-T10

Porksta
03-09-2005, 21:46
But then how are Kroxigors not considered monsters?

Festus
03-09-2005, 23:34
Hi

Wasn't there something about monsters with handlers counting as ridden monsters?
I do think to remember something like that connected with the Hydra.

But I am not sure. Anyone care to give us a hand?

Asks
Festus

Makaber
04-09-2005, 05:35
But then how are Kroxigors not considered monsters?

Kroxigors are monsters, but the spells only affect single ridden or unridden monsters. Kroxigors are organised as units, and fall outside the categories the spell effects (as do ogres, minotaurs, trolls, ect.).

T10
04-09-2005, 11:58
A valid point: a lone Kroxigor might well qualify as a "single, unridden monster" in the same way as a lone Salamander.

I simply assumed they would be best treated as a larger version of regular infantry.

-T10

Porksta
04-09-2005, 17:06
Is the large base called a "monster base" by GW, or is it just a nickname given to it by the players?

sqri
05-09-2005, 08:00
So? :)

Terradons are affected.
Kroxigors are not affected.
Salamanders ???? (I don't belive there is a difference if salamanders are with hadlers or not).

And what about Rat Ogres? They don't have ranks. And have handlers too.
Do these spells affect DE Hydra? (it's monster for sure)

Festus
05-09-2005, 08:30
Hi

Kroxigors are definitely not effected, as they are not monsters, but Units of Infantry (just like Ogres, Minotaurs, Ushabti, ...)

Hydras are effected, as they are monsters, ridden ones at that regarding the rules.

Terradons are flying cavalry, thus cavalry and affected.

Greetings
Festus

Porksta
05-09-2005, 15:52
Terreadons are not flying calvary, or it would say so in their rules, which is why they only get US 1. Besides, the word "calvary" means four legs.

Festus
05-09-2005, 16:02
Hi

Besides, the word "calvary" means horses.
Oh!

Does that mean Cold One Knights are not Cavalry? And neither are Orc Boar Riders? :D

Festus

Porksta
05-09-2005, 16:16
:) Besides, Terradons still are not flying cav.

Yanos
05-09-2005, 16:23
Strictly speaking I think cavalry classify as a trooper riding a steed (of non-specific origin in the Warhammer game :D); there are too many four-legged beasties and non-horse-riding riders for any other definition to spply :).

But unless Terradon Riders have been classified as Flying Cavalry in one of the Errata/FAQs, I think we have to keep calling them a unit of Flyers, in the same way as FellBats and Harpies, in which case I don't know that these spells would apply.

sqri
05-09-2005, 16:53
These spells affect HE Great Eagle for sure. So it should affect Terradons. I don't have my armybook right now, however I'm quite sure that Terradon units gain 6+ armour save because they are mounted by skins.

What about Salamanders? Eagle's Cry spell can be cast at Hydra. Sallies have hadlers too. And they use monster reaction chart in some situation as ridden monster.

Porksta
05-09-2005, 23:27
Whether there is a handler or not is pointless. A Hydra is a monster. It is unridden. Therefore it is an unridden moster.

mageith
06-09-2005, 02:23
Whether there is a handler or not is pointless. A Hydra is a monster. It is unridden. Therefore it is an unridden moster.
Characters joining a hydra count as 'riding' (Chron IV, 115).

I think if GW makes a ruling, Terradons will be flying cavalry, based on this opinion by Gav or pre armybook Warhawk riders:

"WARHAWK RIDERS A bit of both . Warhawk riders are a ` unit. This means they count as cavalry, with the exception that they move and have LOS as skirmishers, have US 1 each, charge 20 inches and do not move half distance with a failed charge. (1 Replies). GW Gav Thorpe[]. 10/2/2002 5:19 (10/2/2002 5:22)"

In their book they are listed as mounted and flying.

I think if GW makes a ruling, Ogre-sized models (units), such as Kroxigors, will count as monsters though I think right now they'd probably be classed as infantry based on page 40. It will take a ruling or errata to make them monsters.

Salamanders are clearly monsters, IMO based on the definition on page 40 and the fact they have handlers. (See Chron 4, on "MONSTERS & HANDLERS" page 115.

Mage Ith

mageith
06-09-2005, 02:29
These spells affect HE Great Eagle for sure. So it should affect Terradons.

While I agree that Terradons are affected by the spells it's because they are cavalry, not not because they are something like Great Eagles.

Great Eagles are affected by the spells because they are monsters.

Porksta
06-09-2005, 02:48
Terradon Riders only have US 1 however, making them non flying cav.
Rat Ogres have handlers, and they are not monsters.

mageith
06-09-2005, 07:48
Terradon Riders only have US 1 however, making them non flying cav.
Rat Ogres have handlers, and they are not monsters.
I'm unclear why you think flying cav must have more than one US? Perhaps I've missed a definition some place? (Two descriptions in two army books does not make 'flying cavalry' a general definition that applies to other army books.)

The defintion of heavy cav has been an evolving thing as evidenced by my Gav quote from 2002. My guess is that the definitions from the Bret/WE book will be general definition in the 7th edition and Terradons will be upgraded to two US.

As to Rat Ogres, it's unclear whether ogre-sized models are intended to be monsters or not. Isn't this one of the very questions of this thread??? (re: Kroxigors). So using one of the questions as an answer is circular, is it not?

Right now I agree that by process of elimination ogre-sized models mostly fit under the infantry heading, but many of their characteristics are monstrous. I don't think GW has yet definitively stated their preference either way have they? Until then I agree that ogre-sized should be treated as infantry.

BTW, Skaven is the one book I don't have. Are packmasters actually called "handlers"? Or are Rat Ogres just a mixed unit?

Mage Ith

samw
11-09-2005, 23:30
Here's one for ya then, would a monstrous character such as a Bloodthirster or Treeman Ancient be effected? What about a lone ogre/ogre character?

mageith
11-09-2005, 23:55
Here's one for ya then, would a monstrous character such as a Bloodthirster or Treeman Ancient be effected?

I think so, but the term 'monstrous character' doesn't exist any longer so it's unclear whether they are actually monsters. GW needs a clearer defintion of monster.



What about a lone ogre/ogre character?
No. They are neither monsters nor monstrous characters at the present time.