PDA

View Full Version : Power Armour and Terminator Armour



Captain Stern
03-10-2007, 22:29
Is the material used to make terminator armour the same stuff used to make power armour or is a harder and tougher material used? I was thinking about the sagitar bow weapons in Horus Rising. Would they have gone right through a terminator just like they seemed to go through the power armoured marines (Interestingly, they couldn't get through Horus' arm bone)? Considering you sacrifice a substantial amount of mobility/ agility when wearing terminator armour I wouldn't feel very safe in terminator armour if it was essentially just extra thick power armour...

Alessander
03-10-2007, 22:36
I'm pretty sure that Terminator Armor (Tactical Dreadnought Armor) cannot be made anymore. Each suit of terminator armor is an ancient artifact, the technology to manufacture it was lost long ago. This is why most (loyal) marine legions only allow the most experienced veterans to use the armor, and go to a lot of lengths to get it back if a Terminator marine.

Terminator armor was originally designed specifically for operating inside the core chamber of plasma/nuculear reactors. The combat aspect of it came later on.

There's also a rumor that the Crux Terminus icon contains fragments of the Emperor's Armor, acting like a mini rosarius.

Source: Space Hulk.

Captain Stern
03-10-2007, 22:38
I'm pretty sure that Terminator Armor (Tactical Dreadnought Armor) cannot be made anymore. Each suit of terminator armor is an ancient artifact, the technology to manufacture it was lost long ago. This is why most (loyal) marine legions only allow the most experienced veterans to use the armor, and go to a lot of lengths to get it back if a Terminator marine.

Terminator armor was originally designed specifically for operating inside the core chamber of plasma/nuculear reactors. The combat aspect of it came later on.

There's also a rumor that the Crux Terminus icon contains fragments of the Emperor's Armor, acting like a mini rosarius.

Source: Space Hulk.

Interesting, but it doesn't really answer my question...

Melchor
03-10-2007, 22:42
I like how the shard of the Emperor's armour ties in with the fact/myth/whatever that every Catholic church has a shard of the cross on which Christ was crucified. Nice touch GW! :)

But I suppose the materials used in TDA and PA are the same. The main difference being that TDA just uses more of it! :p

As for mobility, it would't be too bad I think. TDA still interfaces with the Black Carapace and supposedly reacts to it's wearers movement. It IS bulkier than PA though, but in the environment in which it's mostly used (confined quarters) mobility doesn't count for much anyway.

Savant
03-10-2007, 22:46
Power armor is made of ceramite, Terminator armor is ceramite with a plasteel outer casing. I doubt the actual material makes all that much difference, however, it's the meshes inbetween each layer that gives it it's durability.

And maybe the Sagitar bows were only AP3? ;p

icegreentea
03-10-2007, 22:49
i think termie armor is both more, and 'better' material. the physical size of the terminator demands MORE, yet if it the armor was just simple scaling of power armor + special motive systems, i dont think construction would be such a problem.

that being said, termies can still be made, though really really slowly. can't give any numbers, but it has to be possible in order for newer chapters have be able to field termies, and for depleted first companies to rebuild... like ultramarines.

Argastes
03-10-2007, 22:52
Power armor is made from ceramite, whereas terminator armor uses a ceramite-plasteel composite (in real-life tanks, layered composite armor provides superior protection to homogeneous steel armor for several different reasons) and is also presumably thicker. Also, terminator armor's orthotic frame contains adamantium components, which one assumes are hella tough.

EDIT: Crap, beaten.

Also, I think icegreentea is correct--terminator armor is not IMPOSSIBLE to create, just very difficult and time-consuming. You'll note that one of the Chapter traits in the current SM codex, the one that limits you on taking terminators, states that chapters with this trait are recently created and have "not yet" built up much of a supply of terminator armor.

mistformsquirrel
03-10-2007, 22:57
Yeah, Terminator armor is still able to be constructed, but its difficult to manufacture in the extreme; hence its treatment as a sacred relic.

(note the "Aspire to Glory" trait in Codex: Space Marines - when you plunk down that Terminator squad, you may well be putting every last Terminator suit your neophyte chapter possesses into battle)

Terminator armor is, as noted, a layered plasteel-ceramite composite with an adamantium frame. Essentially, think of a walking tank, and you get a fair image. This as opposed to plate ceramite, which is used in Power Armor.

Terminator armor is further protected however, by a Refractor Field built into the armor. (Thats where that 5+ inv save comes from in tabletop; its not just the raw toughness of the armor, it even has a force field!)

CELS
03-10-2007, 23:20
Didn't GW just come up with the 5+ invulnerable save to represent the toughness of Terminator armour? I don't recall reading anything about an actual force field...

Kahadras
03-10-2007, 23:40
The Imperium is still able to manufacture Terminator armour it just does so increadably slowly as only the most high ranking tech priests are privy to the technological know-how to construct it.

Look at it this way if the Imperium didn't know how to build Terminator armour then if there are aproximatly 1000 SM chapters with less than 100 suits each and say they lost one suit of armour a year to battlefield losses (lost, unable to repair or whatever) the there would only be a handful of suits left in the galaxy by the year 40K.

Kahadras

Captain Stern
03-10-2007, 23:48
What do you think a terminator's chances would have been if shot by a sagitar bow?

Savant
04-10-2007, 00:01
What would a Terminator's chances have been if it were shot with a Sagitar bow, a fictional weapon we know little to nothing about? The Terminator would be...

*flips a coin*

Fine.

Barltok
04-10-2007, 00:16
(Spoilers for Horus Rising)

It seems like Interex had significant Eldar dealings, and their armor and weapons reflect this. It could be some variation of a Reaper launcher, and roughly as damaging to a terminator as one. Though it could have also been another somewhat weaker gun the Eldar had. The bow probably has more in common with their weapons than any imperium gun regardless.

mistformsquirrel
04-10-2007, 00:24
Didn't GW just come up with the 5+ invulnerable save to represent the toughness of Terminator armour? I don't recall reading anything about an actual force field...

I could swear I read that they have a refractor field >.< I'm not sure where I read it now though. I'll see if I can find it though >.<

mistformsquirrel
04-10-2007, 00:36
Ok...

After looking over my codexes and hunting through Wikipedia as well...

I've come up empty. <o.@>; I... honestly have no idea where I got the idea it was a refractor field.

Argastes
04-10-2007, 00:51
Yeah, I always assumed it was to just intended to represent the fact that the armor is so incredibly tough that the wearer has some chance of surviving a hit from even a powerful anti-tank weapon, not to represent any specific form of defense.

devolutionary
04-10-2007, 01:02
Note that a lot of the "Terminator Armour is a relic" also extends from the 1st founding chapters, to whom the suits are a relic because they've had a lot of them for thousands of years. This is why the loss of the Ultramarines 1st was such a blow and sparked such a heavy recovery operation.

[SD] Bob Plisskin
04-10-2007, 03:36
I thought the inv save came from the shard? or the fact that lascannons killed terminators way to easily.

devolutionary
04-10-2007, 04:15
The Inv Save was added because the AP system messed them too much. They used to have a 3+ on 2D6, which was wicked. You'd need a -5 armour save mod to bring them below the 50% threshold for saves.

Khaine's Messenger
04-10-2007, 04:55
Is the material used to make terminator armour the same stuff used to make power armour or is a harder and tougher material used?

According to the flavor description from GW online, "The armour is massively bulky and contains a full exoskeleton arrangement of fibre bundles and adamantium rods to support the heavy gauge plasteel and ceramite plates that form the outer carapace." Considering that powered armor is also "bonded ceramite/plasteel" in many places, I suppose it is your own judgment as to how the arrangement of terminator armor makes it special (perhaps the adamantium, or the "heavy-gauge").


Considering you sacrifice a substantial amount of mobility/ agility when wearing terminator armour I wouldn't feel very safe in terminator armour if it was essentially just extra thick power armour...

Eh. According to the above source about terminator armor, a Space Marine in terminator armor is surprisingly agile. Then again, that "surprise" may come from the sheer terror of something that looks like it shouldn't be mobile being mobile at all. Or maybe it accounts for the dynamic poses of the new models over the old "shuffling brick" postures. Either way, terminator armor's protective properties aren't its most endearing qualities. That lies in the amount of hurt you can pack into such a confined space. But that's where you start looking at cost/benefit....

Sai-Lauren
04-10-2007, 08:53
I'm pretty sure that Terminator Armor (Tactical Dreadnought Armor) cannot be made anymore. Each suit of terminator armor is an ancient artifact, the technology to manufacture it was lost long ago. This is why most (loyal) marine legions only allow the most experienced veterans to use the armor, and go to a lot of lengths to get it back if a Terminator marine.

Incorrect - it can be made, it just takes the undivided attention of the senior techmarines in the chapter (or the senior AM priests for non Marine suits - like those worn by Inquisitors), a lot of praying and ritual, and a long time.

If they couldn't make it, they would have run out millenia ago.



There's also a rumor that the Crux Terminus icon contains fragments of the Emperor's Armor, acting like a mini rosarius.

Source: Space Hulk.
Kind of - it was originally the Captains cross that had a shard of the Emperors armour from when he fought Horus, but either way, it doesn't give any special abilities. Terminator armour gets it's invulnerable save from being so damn thick and heavy.

Doesn't Terminator Armour have some Adamantine in as well?

CELS
04-10-2007, 13:37
Doesn't Terminator Armour have some Adamantine in as well?
Using the hardest material available to the Imperium as personal armour? That's ludicrous. They only use that for bayonets and daggers, silly...

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::p

MadDogMike
04-10-2007, 14:06
Ok...

After looking over my codexes and hunting through Wikipedia as well...

I've come up empty. <o.@>; I... honestly have no idea where I got the idea it was a refractor field.

I dunno, I'm pretty sure I read the same myself. The Dark Angels codex at least states "The ceramite plates can deflect most conventional assaults, while the Crux Terminatus on every Terminator's shoulder plate serves as a ward capable of turning aside even attacks from power weapons or melta fire" (pg. 53, copyright GW etc.). That suggests it is a force field of some sort.

Argastes
04-10-2007, 14:17
The 2E ultramarines codex suggests that every crux terminatus contains a tiny fragment of the Emperor's armor.

Jade_Dragon
04-10-2007, 17:21
The 2E ultramarines codex suggests that every crux terminatus contains a tiny fragment of the Emperor's armor.

It has never made sense to me why they would grind the Emperor's armor down. I mean wouldn't they save it for his 'ressurrection'?

Leftenant Gashrog
04-10-2007, 22:49
as noted, in 2nd edition Terminators got a 3+ save on a 2d6, however in Rogue Trader they only got a 2+ save on a single d6, however all terminators had the option of taking a Refractor Field.. which gave them an Invulnerable 5+ save


It has never made sense to me why they would grind the Emperor's armor down. I mean wouldn't they save it for his 'ressurrection'?

Because the Emperor himself ordered it to be done

Vaulkhar
04-10-2007, 22:59
...allegedly. Privately I take the view that if you combined all the fragments in all the Terminator suits made in the last ten thousand years, the Imperium would be shocked to discover that its deity was a six-armed, two-headed, triple-jointed giant...

I'm a tiny bit irritated that they took the Teleport Homers off of Terminator suits in 3rd edition though.

DantesInferno
05-10-2007, 00:06
...allegedly. Privately I take the view that if you combined all the fragments in all the Terminator suits made in the last ten thousand years, the Imperium would be shocked to discover that its deity was a six-armed, two-headed, triple-jointed giant...

A bit like the fact that, judging by the relics in the Middle Ages, John the Baptist had at least 5 heads, and pieces of the True Cross were so popular to cause John Calvin to remark that there were enough pieces in the churches of Europe to build a ship.

Argastes
05-10-2007, 04:09
...allegedly. Privately I take the view that if you combined all the fragments in all the Terminator suits made in the last ten thousand years, the Imperium would be shocked to discover that its deity was a six-armed, two-headed, triple-jointed giant...

Probably depends on how small the fragments really are. I always assumed that they were REALLY tiny--like the size of the period at the end of this sentence. Literally a speck of material. If that was the case, a man-sized suit of armor could provide millions of fragments.

Sai-Lauren
05-10-2007, 08:35
as noted, in 2nd edition Terminators got a 3+ save on a 2d6, however in Rogue Trader they only got a 2+ save on a single d6, however all terminators had the option of taking a Refractor Field.. which gave them an Invulnerable 5+ save

In RT it was 2+, but no weapon could ever reduce their save to worse than a 6 (so effectively they were 2+/6+Inv).


...while the Crux Terminatus on every Terminator's shoulder plate serves as a ward capable of turning aside even attacks from power weapons or melta fire" (pg. 53, copyright GW etc.). That suggests it is a force field of some sort.
No, it suggests someone in the design studio hasn't read the previous fluff, and is assigning miraculous powers to something, that at best, is only about a cubic inch in size (the shard, not the Crux itself). :p

destroyerlord
05-10-2007, 08:52
I'm pretty sure the crux terminatus (the cross on the left(?) shoulder pad) is a force field generator, just like the chaplain's rozorius is. I've never read anything about the emperor's armour though, thats probably just propaganda. Chaos termies have sorcerous power or daemonic protection instead.

Leftenant Gashrog
05-10-2007, 11:02
In RT it was 2+, but no weapon could ever reduce their save to worse than a 6 (so effectively they were 2+/6+Inv).


d'oh I'd forgotten about the 6 maximum, but they still had the option of taking the 5+ Invulnerable Refractor Field as well

Archaon
05-10-2007, 19:24
If i remember correctly..

The 5+ ward save was introduced shortly before the new plastic Terminators were released.. one guess why.

Another reason would have been that during 3rd the ratio of Marine armies without Terminators were high since they were costly but rarely effective when used as shock troopers. Teleport them right into the middle of the enemy and they rarely survived weapons fire to remain effective.. the 5+ save improved that a bit and so they became more desireable again.

I started with 2nd edition and it was indeed stated that

a) each Terminator armor contains a tiny bit of the Emperor's own armor in it

b) it can be produced but only on the most advanced Forgeworlds and by the most experienced TechAdepts and Techmarines having unrestricted access to ressources

c) When a new Chapter is created it gets a full compliment of equipment as mandated by the Codex Astartes including a full compliment of Terminator armors, which means maybe 20 or so plus a few spares for command staff maybe should they choose to have one.