PDA

View Full Version : Night Haunter's... attire



Captain Stern
04-10-2007, 15:22
So I read the Night Lords Index Astartes again (great stuff apart from making Dorn look bad) to find out what he looked like. I got the impression he walks around semi naked most of the time. Am I wrong? Would it be a stretch to think he used to fight unarmoured too?

It's for a picture I'm drawing. I thought it might look cool to have him bare torso'd.

The Judge
04-10-2007, 15:25
He wears armour in the new short story, even though I always imagined him sem-naked as well.

Captain Stern
04-10-2007, 15:28
Could you do me a favour and give me a brief description?

studderigdave
04-10-2007, 15:50
in "lord of night" during his flashbacks tzo shaal (sp?) recalled night haunter to wear nothing but a long black cloak made of black feathers, mached by his lurid, pasty pale flesh.

The Judge
04-10-2007, 16:08
I don't have the book on me at the moment (moved to uni) but from what I remember it was the same colour as the Night Lord's armour, and may have even had wings on the helm.

Certainly sounded like better fitted power armour.

TheOverlord
04-10-2007, 16:19
BATMAN!

... Ok I'll stop that now.

I'd always imagined him with a long cloak, hunched over and adorned with bat iconography, without armor before the emperor found him, but I suppose once he was reunited with his legion he would wear artificier armor just like all the other primarchs. Have a look at Aerion the Faithful's awesome rendition of him, good reference.

Progena
04-10-2007, 16:28
Goth cloak made of black dyed human leather? Just what I imagined. When he met his end (with open arms and bared fangs) he was sitting on a throne made of human bones and skin.

Captain Stern
04-10-2007, 17:40
BATMAN!

... Ok I'll stop that now.

I'd always imagined him with a long cloak, hunched over and adorned with bat iconography, without armor before the emperor found him, but I suppose once he was reunited with his legion he would wear artificier armor just like all the other primarchs. Have a look at Aerion the Faithful's awesome rendition of him, good reference.

Is that the one titled 'Nocturnus'? He's wearing blue armour and has longish dark hair?

Vaulkhar
04-10-2007, 22:56
with the legion design rendered in black on a yellow background? ;)

The description in Lord of Night (post fall, just prior to his death) has him wearing cloak and nothing else, although he was basically planning to commit suicide at that point.

Otherwise, I see him wearing the Crown of Night (see Lord of Night for a description of that little gizmo) and midnight blue artificier armour, possibly with a few tasteful decorations. Skulls, severed heads, flayed faces, that kind of thing...

Nazguire
04-10-2007, 22:58
Is that the one titled 'Nocturnus'? He's wearing blue armour and has longish dark hair?

I always imagined him completely bald with pale skin. Eyes black, fanged, his body well muscled with whip cord muscle.
I could see him wearing armour, but nothing on the same level as power armour, just a breastplate and vambraces, boots etc but not this all enclosing suit of power armour.
Also he'd go around bare handed, because he's grown out and sharpened his fingernails (because he loves that sort of things, killing with bare hands).

Basically the baddest **** around out of the Primarchs.

VanHel
05-10-2007, 05:40
I like the idea of Night Haunter using his pale pale nakedness as a weapon.

Shiakou
05-10-2007, 06:19
Everyone knows being naked allows you to move as silently as inhumanly possible and that upgrades in job class are usually accompanied by a decrease in clothing.

The pestilent 1
05-10-2007, 08:32
I like the idea of Night Haunter using his pale pale nakedness as a weapon.

Really bad mental image there thanks..


I'd imagined him wearing skin-tight armour myself (.. Yeah, like Batman but more badass)

Marstfu
05-10-2007, 09:18
Whenever he walked around naked, he had his sword with him in a flesh-holster on his shoulder.

Shiakou
05-10-2007, 09:30
Whenever he walked around naked, he had his sword with him in a flesh-holster on his shoulder.

And his gun was always held at the ready.

. . .

Mommy, I'm scared!

Tanith Ghost
05-10-2007, 10:08
BATMAN!


The Bank in hive terminus is being held up? To the Kurzemobile, Robin!:p





Sorry gents, really sorry about that....:p

Nazguire
05-10-2007, 13:32
The Bank in hive terminus is being held up? To the Kurzemobile, Robin!:p





Sorry gents, really sorry about that....:p

Images of Zso Sahaal in dark green tight shorts suddenly come to mind.

Captain Stern
05-10-2007, 18:39
with the legion design rendered in black on a yellow background? ;)

The description in Lord of Night (post fall, just prior to his death) has him wearing cloak and nothing else, although he was basically planning to commit suicide at that point.

Otherwise, I see him wearing the Crown of Night (see Lord of Night for a description of that little gizmo) and midnight blue artificier armour, possibly with a few tasteful decorations. Skulls, severed heads, flayed faces, that kind of thing...

Lord of Night? Was that the Night Lords novel released a while ago? Is the crown special in some way? What does it look like? Is it an actual crown? I don't really want to buy the book...

studderigdave
05-10-2007, 20:31
its called the Corona Nox, its a symbol of status in the NL's. Tzo had it, as he was named sucessor to nighthaunter when nighthaunter allowed homself to be assissinated.

Captain Stern
05-10-2007, 20:42
Thanks. What does it look like?

Marstfu
05-10-2007, 21:25
"It was a crown, of sorts. A black circlet of mercurial metal, polished and undecorated, burning with an eerie non-light. To either side of its tapered ring there rose tall horns, needle-straight and jagged-edged, like twin sabre-blades dipped in oil.
But most stunning of all, beyond the simple elegance and curious captivation of the thing, set into the crown's frontispiece and suspended upon the wearer's forehead on a pltinum mounting, stood a jewel.
A perfect teardrop of ruby-red, its face was uncut by diamond facets or inelegant designs. Smooth and unblemished, it had about it the look of an organic creation."

Ave Dominus Nox!

Captain Stern
05-10-2007, 21:28
Thanks, mate. Very cool.

Adra
05-10-2007, 21:29
it does say his face looks like a skull after all....

Londinium
05-10-2007, 23:28
What people have to remember is that Night Haunter was not a total mad man, in fact he was somewhat cultured and very intelligent, it's merely that he had no restraints in the way he dealt with corruption, warfare and the like and also had episodes when he'd plunge into darkness. It was the parralel personality that coloured Konrad/Night Haunter. His very death showed the philosophical depth and knowledge of the man, it was not until the latter stages of the Crusade when the darkness took him mostly.

He was also perfectly capable of commanding a Space Marine Legion and ruling Nostramo, so in his sane periods which initially compromised the majority of his life in the Imperium, he must have displayed an element of restraint and managed to fit in with the rest of the Imperium, yes he'd be slightly more wild looking than some of the other Primarches, but no more so than Russ or Magnus, and his body wasn't nearly as corrupted as in the end.

For these reasons, I doubt he'd have walked around half naked, more than likely he probably had some tailored armour with the cloak mentioned in Lord of the Night.

Erebus26
06-10-2007, 16:50
I could imagine him looking like a giant raptor! :D

Marstfu
06-10-2007, 20:51
I doubt it.

Zho Sahaal created the raptors.
And thus, all assault marines.

So unless the Night Haunter changed his style, he'd look more like a marine.

Captain Stern
06-10-2007, 21:19
To either side of its tapered ring there rose tall horns, needle-straight and jagged-edged, like twin sabre-blades dipped in oil.


Bat ears, any one?

By the way, has any one ever drawn the Corona Nox (what a cool name by the way!)?

It's a very cool story. I realise how necessary to the plot his asassination was, but I just don't like the manner of his death. I mean a little bitch callidus assasin? It doesn't sit right with me (and I know he let it happen (though it wouldn't hurt if GW actually stated in plain words that he did)). They should have found a more satisfying way.

Captain Stern
06-10-2007, 21:34
Were his coal/ jet (can't remember which) black eyes metaphorical or were they actually completely black?

Progena
06-10-2007, 21:47
Were his coal/ jet (can't remember which) black eyes metaphorical or were they actually completely black?

The eyes of the people of the nightworld Nocturne were all-pupils. Some who witnessed the coming of the Emperor were struck blind because of his brilliant radiance.

So yeah... black eyes, or perhaps just mostly pupils like on horses.

Captain Stern
06-10-2007, 21:54
But wouldn't his eyes have adjusted back to normal after he left his homeworld (being superhuman and all)?

Progena
06-10-2007, 22:03
But wouldn't his eyes have adjusted back to normal after he left?

Good question... he wasn't actually born on Nocturne so it wasn't genetic. It was probably a way to adapt. Still, the Night Lords favoured strikes at nighttime (and still do), so perhaps it wasn't neccesary for him to readjust? Don't picture him as having giant dowe eyes either, small eyeslits perhaps? Such as many Asians have.

And are you drawing him pre-heresy or at the time of his death? There's a pretty detailed description of him in the little fluff piece when he meets the assassin IIRC. It says that his lips had receeded from his mouth amongst other things.

Captain Stern
06-10-2007, 22:10
Pre-heresy I guess. I'm not a big fan of the primarchs NOT being beautiful so I'm not too keen to give him receeding lips e.t.c. (at least not too soon in his career).

Witchfire
06-10-2007, 22:29
http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc152/hurin_the_steadfast/konrad.jpg

That's how I imagine him, before he became deranged anyway.

EDIT/UPDATE

Based on Dolph Lundgren's portrayal of the Punisher by the way (horrible film but damn did he look cool).

no way dude

EDIT= your imagination is yours to controll but that looks nothing like any description or depiction of the NH

Captain Stern
06-10-2007, 22:42
Fair enough. I read that, while on Nocturne at least, he had pale skin, lank hair and black eyes. Now the eyes I personally think would have readjusted (the picture looks better with the whites of the eyes visible imo). I like to think his hair style would have changed eventually after increased contact with the rest of the imperium. While he was a very individualistic and self willed individual I can't help but think that some of the fashion might have affected him or, more likely, exposure to the rest of the galaxy would have given him his own ideas. Him having pale skin I'm not too keen on. If I'd written about him I'd have given him kind of greyish skin, like the Duergar in Forgotten Realms (much cooler I think). I doubt I'll abandon his current look though (apart from the hair style as it's a complete rip-off).

EDIT/UPDATE

And like I said I don't think primarchs should be anything less than very attractive (even Magnus, with his one eye). Hence the pretty boy you see above!

Londinium
06-10-2007, 22:46
Going on the whole pretty boy angle that Captain Stern seems to be following for some reason, I give you Night Haunter:

http://www.audiohead.net/interviews/trentreznor/images/sieiieiieil.jpg

:rolleyes:

Captain Stern
06-10-2007, 22:51
I suppose he's handsome (I'm worried in case it's a picture of you (but he is)) but I don't think he looks like an uber physically, biologically, uberally perfect and beautiful being to me. He could pull off a Blood Angel.

Progena
06-10-2007, 22:51
That's how I imagine him, before he became deranged anyway.


I think the drawing is amasing and I don't question your skills, but that doesn't look like the Night Haunter to me... sorry... :(

Ok, I skimmed through Index Astartes and checked for descriptions (mostly eye witness accounts).

On his time on Nostramo:
- "...Expression of an old man, its eyes black and cold as obsidian." (Which means that he had black eyes even before he came to Nostramo.)
- "...his pallid, sunken features..."
- "...his lank hair shielding his face from the light..."*
- "...the Primarch's palsied lips..."

On his time as Primarch of the Night Lords:
- "...hunched palid form of Night Haunter..."
- "...matted hair fell down over his jet-black eyes..."*

On his actions during the Heresy:
- "Night Haunter changed physically during this time, his lips receding completely, his muscular frame hunching over, and his gnarled hands streching into grasping talons."

*Leads to my main point: Night Haunter needs more hair...

Also, Night Haunter was a monster to all he met, and that was the image he cultivated. His men followed him because they feared their dark ruler. He probably was handsome, but I don't think he was well groomed.

Captain Stern
06-10-2007, 22:59
I didn't realise the current vision/ description of the Night Haunter was so popular. Well, back to the drawing board and I'll see what I can do.

Of course, now you've seen this picture it means I can't use it as the head for a different primarch! Aaargh.

EDIT/UPDATE

On second thoughts... that is how I like him. Maybe I can try a compromise.

EDIT/ UPDATE

Actually, now that I remember, this face was originally meant as a replacement for the face used in the WIP picture of The Lion I posted in Stories and Art. As I drew it I thought it was more appropriate for Konrad.

Progena
06-10-2007, 23:05
I didn't realise the current vision/ description of the Night Haunter was so popular. Well, back to the drawing board and I'll see what I can do.

Of course, now you've seen this picture it means I can't use it as the head for a different primarch! Aaargh.

Oh, sorry about that then man.

Though you could probably pass him of as Antonio Banderas fanart on some obscure fan-forum and impress some fangirls. :angel:

Sorry again, that was just cruel. ;)

Londinium
06-10-2007, 23:09
I think the drawing is amasing and I don't question your skills, but that doesn't look like the Night Haunter to me... sorry... :(

Ok, I skimmed through Index Astartes and checked for descriptions (mostly eye witness accounts).

On his time on Nostramo:
- "...Expression of an old man, its eyes black and cold as obsidian." (Which means that he had black eyes even before he came to Nostramo.)
- "...his pallid, sunken features..."
- "...his lank hair shielding his face from the light..."*
- "...the Primarch's palsied lips..."

He was living on the streets, living off wild animals and the like and stealing what he could, it's not suprising he looked a mess, give a tramp a shave, some clothes and a good wash and they look suprisingly different, likewise with NH.


On his time as Primarch of the Night Lords:
- "...hunched palid form of Night Haunter..."
- "...matted hair fell down over his jet-black eyes..."*

If this is referring to the incident with Dorn as I believe it is, he was already well on the route down to rebelling, his nightmares had become more common, his tactics had been spiralling well out of control, he was suffering a mental breakdown, the lack of personal hygiene and well being is a prime indication of this.

Personally I think, if you want to picture Night Haunter during his time in the Imperium, post Nostramo but before he went off the rails, I'd look to Corax as inspiration but a more wild and unhinged version, not the hideous beast you'd have seen roaming the streets of Nostramo or lording over Tsalagusa.

I just hope some artists attempt artwork of him at some point or another, if boring Primarchs like Perturabo at least get an image in Visions, NH should have had some :(

Captain Stern
06-10-2007, 23:20
For a primarch living on the streets would have been as much bother as living in disneyland for the rest of us. There's no way such a life would have taken its toll on his physical appearance.

Captain Stern
06-10-2007, 23:22
Progena: Though you could probably pass him of as Antonio Banderas fanart on some obscure fan-forum and impress some fangirls.

I think he's far prettier than Antonio ever was (but still scary!).

Londinium
06-10-2007, 23:26
For a primarch living on the streets would have been as much bother as living in disneyland for the rest of us. There's no way such a life would have taken its toll on his physical appearance.

I've never seen any canon sources claiming that Primarch's skin is invulnerable to dirt, and their hair does not get greasy, and they don't start to smell if they don't clean ;) and for a nascent Primarch still having to live through their childhood such an event would be hugely traumatic, all the Primarch's upbringing had effects on their personalities regardless of their superior genetics.

Captain Stern
06-10-2007, 23:32
Where do you think the Space Marine Carex gland comes from?

So do you reckon his:

- "...Expression of an old man, its eyes black and cold as obsidian." (Which means that he had black eyes even before he came to Nostramo.)
- "...his pallid, sunken features..."
- "...his lank hair shielding his face from the light..."*
- "...the Primarch's palsied lips..."

came from exposure to Chaos during infancy (or, of course, by design of the Emperor)?

That was never in my mind for some reason.

Captain Stern
06-10-2007, 23:42
and for a nascent Primarch still having to live through their childhood such an event would be hugely traumatic, all the Primarch's upbringing had effects on their personalities regardless of their superior genetics.

Well that's debatable and certainly does not have any grounding in the canon (whatever that is when you have multiple authors). I've actually liked this idea for a long time though. For example, wouldn't Russ' wolf like attributes have been an astronomical coincidence if he'd had them before he landed on Fenris (If the Emperor hadn't consciously sent him there that is)?

But then, I don't think Night Haunter looking like an extremely tall and buff tramp looks all that cool...

EDIT

Sorry. Lots of mistakes.

Nagoveht
07-10-2007, 07:11
When I imagine Night Haunter, I sort of see Illidan dressed up like batman, completely passed out with a bottle of booze, in some dark alleyway in new york.


...with a missing wallet.

Sikkukkut
07-10-2007, 11:24
For some reason I always pictured him with a broad-brimmed hat, sort of like the Witch Hunters' hats in Warhammer Fantasy but with a brim as wide as his shoulders. Since I also picture him with his cloak swirling around him, I suspect my mental image of him has been influenced by the old "Shadow" pulp character.

Nazguire
07-10-2007, 23:23
Where do you think the Space Marine Carex gland comes from?

So do you reckon his:

- "...Expression of an old man, its eyes black and cold as obsidian." (Which means that he had black eyes even before he came to Nostramo.)
- "...his pallid, sunken features..."
- "...his lank hair shielding his face from the light..."*
- "...the Primarch's palsied lips..."

came from exposure to Chaos during infancy (or, of course, by design of the Emperor)?

That was never in my mind for some reason.

Most of the Primarchs had a mutation of some shape.
Look at Ferrus Mannus for example, completely silver eyes and liquid metal hands.

Having pale skin, and depressed features, a Chaos worshipper does not make.

MysteryGilgamesh
07-10-2007, 23:46
I could imagine him looking like a giant raptor! :D

Curze assassinating a corrupt governer?

Witchfire
08-10-2007, 17:30
Most of the Primarchs had a mutation of some shape.
Look at Ferrus Mannus for example, completely silver eyes and liquid metal hands.

Having pale skin, and depressed features, a Chaos worshipper does not make.

Ferus Mannus's hands and eyes are the result of necrontyr necrodermis corrupting them after he got residue on his hands after defeating the c'tan construct Asirnoth, he killed it by holding it under magma despite the pain and when he removed his hands they were coated with the necrodermis of the beast, which was as flexible as skin but as hard as ceramite

Captain Stern
08-10-2007, 17:55
What's a C'Tan construct exactly?

Witchfire
08-10-2007, 18:08
What's a C'Tan construct exactly?

Depends how broadly you use the term.

Technichaly- all necrons are c'tan constructs, the physical bodies of the c'tan are constructs themselves crafted from necrodermis (living metal).

But in this term it refers to some kind of mechanical necron serpent, sentinent i think- like a lord with a serpent body.

Check lexicanum for details, i'm not completely sure of the exact details.

Invader Nails
08-10-2007, 18:10
It's something CONSTRUCTed by the C'TAN. Basically a big nasty monster made out of nano-machinery.

Also: I don't care who you are, living on the streets WILL make you dirty and smelly and hairy as all getout. I agree that actually surviving was probably no great problem for him, but his appearance would have suffered (which was actually kind of the point of him).


Also Also: I'm sure he wore armor during his spacefaring days. While the "rule of cool" might have him beating on Wraithlords wearing only a loincloth, there's just no possible way that he could have gone into battle in the Great Crusade without wearing armor. Primarch or no, he would've been dead, dead, deadskie pretty quick.

Captain Stern
09-10-2007, 01:15
Hmm. I'm pretty sure the thing Manus defeated was the Void Dragon.


Also: I don't care who you are, living on the streets WILL make you dirty and smelly and hairy as all getout.

That's fair enough.


I agree that actually surviving was probably no great problem for him, but his appearance would have suffered (which was actually kind of the point of him).

Ferrus Manus killed a C'tan by drowning it in lava. Lion El' Jonson grew up in a chaos infested jungle. Konrad's appearance would definetely not have suffered growing up on the streets unless he was an exceptionally weak primarch.


Also: I'm sure he wore armor during his spacefaring days. While the "rule of cool" might have him beating on Wraithlords wearing only a loincloth, there's just no possible way that he could have gone into battle in the Great Crusade without wearing armor. Primarch or no, he would've been dead, dead, deadskie pretty quick.

I'm not all that convinced. Horus' arm bone (clothed in nothing but a robe) stopped an interex projectile dead, while identical projectiles had skewered power armoured marines clean through.

Vaulkhar
09-10-2007, 01:24
Nope, the Dragon is still in stasis under the Noctis Labyrinth on Mars as of late M.41 (most of the references to it in both the Codex and Xenology make the location and what happened pretty plain - although it does raise interesting question about just where the Dark Age civilisations and possibly the Emperor got a lot of technology from...). I think we're looking at 'random Necron thingy' for Ferrus Manus's victim.

Captain Stern
09-10-2007, 01:26
I never said he killed him.

EDIT

Actually I did say that, didn't I... What I meant to say was that Manus 'destryed his necrodermis body/shell'.

Vaulkhar
09-10-2007, 01:29
It still can't be the Dragon. He/she/it went into stasis 65 million years ago and, going by all the evidence, is still there.

Captain Stern
09-10-2007, 01:32
Like the Manus story, the Mars version isn't 100% verified, is it?

Vaulkhar
09-10-2007, 01:42
Depends on your definition of verified.

Codex Necrons, p5, and one of the Dawn of War books relate an Eldar prophecy which includes the line 'The Vaul-moon shall bring forth the Dragon'. Vaul is the Eldar god of the forge - so it's not an unreasonable extension to argue that Vaul-moon is the Eldar term for 'Forge World'.

Page 26 of the Codex has a small passage entitled 'Visions of the Sleeping God'. Abaddon and Zaraphiston summon a daemon to find out what's got the warp so riled up about Mars and the daemon (after some persuasion) tells them of 'a new type of death. A sacrifice of men, but the precious souls are not consumed, they are set adrift'. When Abaddon orders the daemon to show him what is on Mars, the daemon gives them a vision of 'a great chamber of basalt, around it towering machines of antique silver stretched endlessly upward. Set in the floor was a vast sarcophagus of adamantium and gold. From each of the machines in turn a flickering beam of unimaginable energy flowed in a glittering arc to the sarcophagus'.

Page 26 of the Codex also notes that just two of the four surviving C'tan have emerged (these being the Deceiver and the Nightbringer).

Xenology includes a partial translation of an Eldar poem, which covers the end of the Warin Heaven and the Fall, mentioning that 'In pearls of Vaul is Dragon becalmed'.

Captain Stern
09-10-2007, 01:44
The only explanation for Night Haunter's change of appearance that makes sense to me is that his superhuman mind, and also his super psychic abilities, allowed his hideous mind to alter his body to be the same.

Captain Stern
09-10-2007, 01:46
Depends on your definition of verified.

Codex Necrons, p5, and one of the Dawn of War books relate an Eldar prophecy which includes the line 'The Vaul-moon shall bring forth the Dragon'. Vaul is the Eldar god of the forge - so it's not an unreasonable extension to argue that Vaul-moon is the Eldar term for 'Forge World'.

Page 26 of the Codex has a small passage entitled 'Visions of the Sleeping God'. Abaddon and Zaraphiston summon a daemon to find out what's got the warp so riled up about Mars and the daemon (after some persuasion) tells them of 'a new type of death. A sacrifice of men, but the precious souls are not consumed, they are set adrift'. When Abaddon orders the daemon to show him what is on Mars, the daemon gives them a vision of 'a great chamber of basalt, around it towering machines of antique silver stretched endlessly upward. Set in the floor was a vast sarcophagus of adamantium and gold. From each of the machines in turn a flickering beam of unimaginable energy flowed in a glittering arc to the sarcophagus'.

Page 26 of the Codex also notes that just two of the four surviving C'tan have emerged (these being the Deceiver and the Nightbringer).

Xenology includes a partial translation of an Eldar poem, which covers the end of the Warin Heaven and the Fall, mentioning that 'In pearls of Vaul is Dragon becalmed'.


So, very far from verified then.

Vaulkhar
09-10-2007, 01:48
Err...define 'verified'. I've got two GW-produced sources, both making specific reference to the Dragon. What have you got?

Captain Stern
09-10-2007, 01:53
They're not specific at all. They're vague references to a being that may or may not be The Dragon.

Verify:

to prove the truth of, as by evidence or testimony; confirm; substantiate.

I don't think you've done that. The stuff published about the subject still leaves a lot of room for doubt (which I'm sure is intentional).

Vaulkhar
09-10-2007, 01:56
Right. What will you accept?

Captain Stern
09-10-2007, 02:10
Lol... umm... that it might be true? Just as the Manus story might be true.

I always liked the idea (vaguely introduced by Bill King in Space Wolf) that the Primarchs only became very powerful once they were found by The Emperor and taught by him (and then by Horus once he was found) to unlock their full power/ potential. Thus they'd reach 'apotheosis' (to use King's term). I have no problem with such a primarch beating a C'tan (compared to the descriptions of some Chaos beings they don't seem all that powerful to me). But that doesn't seem to be the route GW's taken with the primarchs in the novels (according to the new novels it's likely they were pretty much as powerful when found as they were ever going to be minus a little refinement when trained by The Emperor). But when they throw me a line like they did in the Ferrus Manus story I can't help but bite. We're supposed to interpret what they give us, right? So when we consider that Manus defeated a creature that seemed very, very similar to The Void Dragon, is it not then reasonable to deduce (as you might deduce The Void Dragon resided on Mars based on even sketchier evidence) that a primarch beating a C'tan isn't beyond the realm of possibility?

Vaulkhar
09-10-2007, 02:18
Sorry, perhaps I should rephrase: What will you accept as definitive evidence that Manus could not encounter the Dragon because the Dragon is still entombed on Mars as of M.41?

Equally, what do you have as evidence that the thing Manus defeated was a C'Tan as opposed to a Necron guard creature?


Oh yes - and back on thread topic - since when was Konrad a psyker? His statement that he was aware of M'Shen since she entered the Eastern Fringe can be explained by a competent spy network and monitoring satellites.

Captain Stern
09-10-2007, 02:25
I can't answer either question because there is no definitive evidence to confirm either theory as being true. I probably shouldn't have stated that Manus did in fact encounter the Void Dragon because there's no definitive proof (only a high likelyhood?). I just like to think he did (probably because C'tan seem to encroach on everything as an all powerful force ever since they've featured in the background.)

Of course, if it was up to me, there wouldn't be C'tan (at least in their current incarnation). Because of the C'Tan and The equally tedious Old Ones we no longer have, for example, the far more interesting and humourous Brain Boyz of the Orks.

Captain Stern
09-10-2007, 02:32
Oh yes - and back on thread topic - since when was Konrad a psyker? His statement that he was aware of M'Shen since she entered the Eastern Fringe can be explained by a competent spy network and monitoring satellites.

They might not have in the new books (though that's not definite) but all signs point to them posessing psychic powers in older background at least. When a setting such as 40k is written by more than one author, It's hard to decide what's canon and what can justify something new replacing something older as the new canon, but if the new stuff is written by the likes of Ben Counter or worse, who's to decide... I mean really?

Vaulkhar
09-10-2007, 02:39
What older background? There's one direct quote - the 'Death is nothing compared to vindication' speech - that I know of and the usual narrative work on the Primarchs that's been served since 2nd edition.

The only references to psychic abilities amongst the Primarchs that I know of prior to daemonic elevation are Magnus the Red, Sanguinius' visions (which are a one line reference in the Codex Angels of Death) and the unspoken implication of Leman Russ's trance state immediately prior to his departure from Fenris.

Captain Stern
09-10-2007, 02:55
I think it's strongly implied by their descriptions as god like beings, able to scatter armies e.t.c. Why would Magnus be the only psyker? It doesn't make any sense. Besides, The Emperor would be limiting their effectiveness if they hadn't been granted psychic powers. In 40k, the trend seems to be if you're no psychic, no matter how powerful you are, you just can't be considered all that powerful. For example, as powerful as the primarchs are described in the new books, how would they fare against alpha plus psykers if they weren't at least as strong as them psychically?

If you want an explicit example of a primarch possessing psychic powers in the old background, you need look no further than the 2nd Lion and The Wolf story. In it Russ personally piloted 'The Winter Wolf' through the Warp after his master navigator had been driven mad by daemons.

There's an instance in the new novels where we're told Sanguinius also has psychic powers. It's in False Gods where Horus is on his death bed.

I'm not going to indulge in this particular debate any further because the various authors who write or have written about primarchs have differing opinions on what they should be like, and also varying degrees of knowledge of what was written about them in the past past. I.e it's pointless.

Nazguire
09-10-2007, 07:43
There's an instance in the new novels where we're told Sanguinius also has psychic powers. It's in False Gods where Horus is on his death bed.


Sanguinius has always been portrayed as having psychic powers, but they are in the category of premonitions and foresight, just as Night Haunter did. The only Primarch who had psychic powers in all categories (foresight, telekinesis, zappy zappy kill kill, etc) was Magnus the Red.

Nazguire
09-10-2007, 07:48
Ferus Mannus's hands and eyes are the result of necrontyr necrodermis corrupting them after he got residue on his hands after defeating the c'tan construct Asirnoth, he killed it by holding it under magma despite the pain and when he removed his hands they were coated with the necrodermis of the beast, which was as flexible as skin but as hard as ceramite

Yes, thank you for quoting the IA to me.

If I have to I'll use a different example, Sanguinius is a good one. Giant wings, obnoxious pretty boy looks and psychic powers. Mutations out the wazoo. Chaos worshipper? Nope, (probably the ultimate example of someone being tempted by Chaos and saying ''No thanks'' in response, to his eventual detriment)

Drakemaster
09-10-2007, 13:57
The only references to psychic abilities amongst the Primarchs that I know of prior to daemonic elevation are Magnus the Red, Sanguinius' visions (which are a one line reference in the Codex Angels of Death) and the unspoken implication of Leman Russ's trance state immediately prior to his departure from Fenris.
From the Night Lords IA article:

One of the better known facts about Konrad Curze was that he was cursed by visions of horrifying potency throughout his life. Rather than seeing the myriad possibilities the future could hold, as the sorcerous Eldar claim they are able to, the visions he would experience were inevitably dark and troubled, the blackest paths the future could take unwinding before him.
It then describes at length some of the visions he had, including forseeing the Heresy and the destruction of Nostromo. So there is just as much 'canon background' supporting Night Haunter's psychic abilities as there is those of Sanguinus.

Vaulkhar
09-10-2007, 14:59
Fair enough, I hadn't seen the IA article. Cursed with psychic visions he was then.

Witchfire
09-10-2007, 17:28
I can't answer either question because there is no definitive evidence to confirm either theory as being true. I probably shouldn't have stated that Manus did in fact encounter the Void Dragon because there's no definitive proof (only a high likelyhood?). I just like to think he did (probably because C'tan seem to encroach on everything as an all powerful force ever since they've featured in the background.)

Of course, if it was up to me, there wouldn't be C'tan (at least in their current incarnation). Because of the C'Tan and The equally tedious Old Ones we no longer have, for example, the far more interesting and humourous Brain Boyz of the Orks.

there is no likelyhood that the construct ( named Asirnoth not void dragon ) because the void dragon is still alive at the center of mars, and is considerably larger than ferrus mannus. also- according to codex necrons when you kill a c'tan it explodes with extreme force, mannus would not be alive today if he killed the shell of a c'tan. The void dragon is also quoted all over the fluff which you obviously have not read seeing as you are suggesting that all the primarchs ran round using illegal psyker stuff that got
magnus expelled from the imperium. The void dragon never left mars in 65 million years and that includes his physical shell, anyone who has read codex necrons can tell you that.

Chaplain Dionitas
09-10-2007, 18:05
Wow. i don't think you got your point across there.

Witchfire
09-10-2007, 18:17
Wow. i don't think you got your point across there.

i had to make him actually read my posts before he carried on claiming that ferrus mannus killed the void dragon and seeing as he disregarded everything said to him i had to take decisive action

lol:p

Londinium
09-10-2007, 18:18
Fulgrim seriously damaged his hands when attacking an Avatar, thats enough evidence to denounce this silly little theory that Primarches bodies are invulnerable to damage or dirt or anything like that, Primarches are not C'tan like beings as you seem to be suggesting, C'tans are gods, Primarches are essentially Greater Daemons of the Emperor based off human DNA (no matter how far removed they are) infused with the Emperor's DNA and the power of the warp.

Witchfire
09-10-2007, 18:21
Fulgrim seriously damaged his hands when attacking an Avatar, thats enough evidence to denounce this silly little theory that Primarches bodies are invulnerable to damage or dirt or anything like that, Primarches are not C'tan like beings as you seem to be suggesting, C'tans are gods, Primarches are essentially Greater Daemons of the Emperor based off human DNA (no matter how far removed they are.) infused with the Emperor's DNA and the power of the warp.

thank you and now will captain stern kindly stop claiming that theres a high likelyhood that ferrus mannus killed the most powerfull of the living gods of the c'tan who are in the codex stated as being the equal opposites of the chaos gods.

there is no possibility that one of the primarchs murdered khorne or tzeentch and this would be the same thing

Chaplain Dionitas
09-10-2007, 18:22
Hence Sanguinius pulling an awesome WWE backbreaker on that greater daemon at the eternity gate! Where was Mean Jean Okerlund??

Saaaay isn't it true that Manus killed the void dragon??


*snicker*

Witchfire
09-10-2007, 18:39
Hence Sanguinius pulling an awesome WWE backbreaker on that greater daemon at the eternity gate! Where was Mean Jean Okerlund??

Saaaay isn't it true that Manus killed the void dragon??


*snicker*

lol, i can actually imagine that

Cheesolith
09-10-2007, 18:55
The Necron killed by Manus had a tail. The C'tan have no tails. The Nightbringer uses his standard orb thingie that looks like the grim reaper because of the "worst fear projection thingie", no idea wtf the Deceiver is supposed to look like and the Dragon is a cloud, yes a cloud. The outsider is currently unknown but it's been suggested that Dyson is the natural state of a C'tan who hasn't taken another shape through telekinetic means.

The only 'cron with a tail is a wraith. And a pretty dumb wraith to boot. It could have phased out and appeared again behind manus with ease. Or, manus ending up with necrodermis hands(a substance that can be directly manipulated by the C'tan)was the entire plan of the wraith attack. After all, it's a pretty decent way to smuggle a scarab to Mars.

Chaplain Dionitas
09-10-2007, 21:24
Perhaps but you never know. The fluff on the streets is that the Necron fleets out and about now are only the advance recon types

Captain Stern
09-10-2007, 23:10
Well... I haven't read the Necron codex very thoroughly, but I will. Even now I'm quite sure it's not explicitly stated that he's on Mars and wasn't on Manus' planet.

By the way, the giant text you chose to use just made you seem obnoxious and not much else.

Vaulkhar
10-10-2007, 00:36
Lave Stern to his delusions lads, I tried cited sources and reasoning on the last page and ran into self-inflicted dogma.

Stern: You're not going to find 'The Dragon is on Mars' stated in so many words anywhere in the Codex or the other source material. Much like the realisation that the Ethereals are compelling obedience from the other Tau (whether they realise this or not is an interesting side discussion), the evidence is scattered across several sources and we're left to put it together.

I'm going to have one final go at walking you through the logic of the 'Dragon is on Mars' theory before accepting that any chain of logic and evidence put together that does not support your worldview will be dismissed as 'inconclusive' or 'not verified'. I'd be pleasantly surprised if, before shooting this down you'd at least try to put forward an alternative that actually covers the cited evidence and is more plausible.

Here goes:

1) The C'Tan entombed themselves on worlds with little or no ecosystem (and certainly not sentient life).

2) Both the Eldar prophecy on p5 of the Codex and the Eldar poem in Xenology connect the Dragon's tomb with Vaul. The Prophecy is particularly explicit, stating that 'the Vaul-moon shall being forth the Dragon'. Vaul is the Eldar god of the forge, the deduction being that the Dragon is entombed on a Forge World or the alien equivalent. Specifically, that world will be a Forge-world or similar at the point the Dragon awakes and emerges from stasis (the prophecy relates to emergence, not entombment).

2) With that settled, the question becomes 'Which world fits the description of Vaul-moon and has an extremely large Necron installation that is largely unexplored?'.

Most people answer 'Mars'. Mars is the oldest and greatest of the Forge Worlds (ie, Vaul moons). It has an extremely extensive Necron installation dormant under the Noctis Labyrinth and at the point of the Necron entombment 65 million years ago had no ecosystem to attract the Enslavers. Sol was, to borrow from Douglas Adams, an insignificant yellow star in a backwater of the western spiral arm.

Corroboration of this is taken from the Codex again - the short excerpt 'Visions of the Sleeping God', which describes a C'tan sarcophagus on Mars.

Absolute proof? Not if the only thing you'll take is an ex cathedra statement in a Codex or from Lenton...but most people accept this because it covers the observed evidence, makes sense of a lot of the Mechanicus behaviour (including a lot of the ranting about the Machine God and the ban on mechanical AIs) and also provides an interesting take on the Dark Age of Technology.

Progena
10-10-2007, 11:14
Absolute proof? Not if the only thing you'll take is an ex cathedra statement in a Codex or from Lenton...but most people accept this because it covers the observed evidence, makes sense of a lot of the Mechanicus behaviour (including a lot of the ranting about the Machine God and the ban on mechanical AIs) and also provides an interesting take on the Dark Age of Technology.

The ban on Abominable Inteligence was ordered and enforced by the Emperor of Mankind, who most Magi believe to be the Omnissiah, the Avatar of their Machine God.

Something I don't understand though is where the name 'Void Dragon' comes from, it's only ever described as a Dragon. I know the Eldar name many of their Aspects and vehicles after creatures of Eldar myth, Banshees (Slaanesh anyone?), Warp Spiders and so on. They have Void Stalkers and Dragonships. I know there is a pirate organisation called the 'Void Dragons', but I can't really see the connection to the C'tan on Mars. Is the name pure speculation?

The pestilent 1
10-10-2007, 11:16
I think he was reffered to as the Void Dragon in that mythic cycle thing wasn't he?

Vaulkhar
10-10-2007, 12:19
The Void Dragon is a type of Eldar battleship in BFG (it's in the Warp Storm expansion book), the Dragon is the C'tan. I think the names must have gotten confused slightly.

The Emperor=Omnissiah=Machine God idea strikes me as being a theological fudge to keep the Hereticus happy ad the Ecclesiarchy from waving pitchforks. After all, the rest of the Imperium (alright, barring the Marines) worships him directly, so why the clockwork version for the AM?

Witchfire
10-10-2007, 16:07
The Void Dragon is a type of Eldar battleship in BFG (it's in the Warp Storm expansion book), the Dragon is the C'tan. I think the names must have gotten confused slightly.

The Emperor=Omnissiah=Machine God idea strikes me as being a theological fudge to keep the Hereticus happy ad the Ecclesiarchy from waving pitchforks. After all, the rest of the Imperium (alright, barring the Marines) worships him directly, so why the clockwork version for the AM?

you are absolutely right- the emperor=machine god is clearly just a front.

but seriously now, the dragon is the c'tan who is the reason that mars keeps getting necron sightings.


There is NO chance that the Dragon (C'tan) is what ferrus mannus killed as for one thing the dragon is a big red dragon and Asirnoth was a man sized servant of the C'tan, a slave. Also asirnoth was a snake not a dragon.

And that IS confirmed as it is in index astartes.

Also, ferrus mannus was a man, a powerful one but he was at the start of his career and killed a robot snake not a GOD


it looks like everyone but captain stern agrees with me along with GW

Captain Stern
10-10-2007, 17:22
Ok then. Show me a quote from Codex Necrons that confirms what you say is 100% true. Quotes that are very suggestive yet fall short of being 100% evidence aren't good enough. Until you can provide said quote then you can't claim you're right and I'm wrong. That's just the way it works and it's irrelevant how many people agree with you (or how sarcastic your language becomes). Truth isn't a democracy.

And calm down, guys. By the way some of you are talking you'd think I'd insulted your mother.

Witchfire
10-10-2007, 17:52
i'll just type it up now...

Witchfire
10-10-2007, 18:00
from visions of the sleeping god, codex:necrons, page 26

'' The Despoiler nodded then fixed his gaze on the daemon, which recoiled before him.

''show me more, what is on mars?''

The daemon form blurred and contracted into a pulsing ball of crimson ichor. As if squeezed by a unseen hand the pus oozed onto the altar, covering it in a grisly sheen in which shapes twisted and formed.

The traitor marines saw a great chamber of basalt, around it towering machines of antique silver stretched endlessly upward. Set in the floor was a vast scarcophagus of aamantium and gold. from each of the machines in turn a flickering beam of unimaginable energy flowed in a glittering arc to the sarcophagus. ''

quoted word for word- want more?

Vaulkhar
10-10-2007, 18:06
Tried that earlier, got dismissed as not definitive. Basically, unless you can find a bit of GW produced background that literally says 'The Dragon is on Mars' in so many words, Stern won't admit defeat. No deduction permitted. Of course, he isn't prepared to justify his own theory to the same standard.

An admirable degree of stubborness in a Grey Knight, but unfortunate in anyone else.

Witchfire
10-10-2007, 18:26
Hmm. I'm pretty sure the thing Manus defeated was the Void Dragon.




Ferrus Manus killed a C'tan by drowning it in lava. Lion El' Jonson grew up in a chaos infested jungle. Konrad's appearance would definetely not have suffered growing up on the streets unless he was an exceptionally weak primarch.



I'm not all that convinced. Horus' arm bone (clothed in nothing but a robe) stopped an interex projectile dead, while identical projectiles had skewered power armoured marines clean through.


codex necrons clearly states that the c'tan are the equal counterparts of the chaos gods, but hile the chaos gods controll the warp the c'tan controll physical stuff. hence the c'tan hatred of psykers. therefore ctan are the equals of the chaos gods and you dont see leman russ killing khorne or tzeentch before hes even met the emperor.

therefore ferrus mannus would be dead if he even saw the dragon, which no mortal has for 65 million years.

RANT ALERT

And i dont care what you say to this. I dont waltz up to a chaos player with my imperial fists army and claim that rogal dorn killed khorne before he'd even heard of the emperor.



Its the same flippin thing.

i refer to the many rants of my avatar- foamy the squirrel ( google it!)

Captain Stern
10-10-2007, 19:03
from visions of the sleeping god, codex:necrons, page 26

'' The Despoiler nodded then fixed his gaze on the daemon, which recoiled before him.

''show me more, what is on mars?''

The daemon form blurred and contracted into a pulsing ball of crimson ichor. As if squeezed by a unseen hand the pus oozed onto the altar, covering it in a grisly sheen in which shapes twisted and formed.

The traitor marines saw a great chamber of basalt, around it towering machines of antique silver stretched endlessly upward. Set in the floor was a vast scarcophagus of aamantium and gold. from each of the machines in turn a flickering beam of unimaginable energy flowed in a glittering arc to the sarcophagus. ''

quoted word for word- want more?

This coming from a daemon no less?


Of course, he isn't prepared to justify his own theory to the same standard.

I'm not claiming it's any more than a theory. I'm perfectly prepared to contemplate I'm wrong and I also recognise that other background exists that puts my theory into serious disrepute. Big difference.


codex necrons clearly states that the c'tan are the equal counterparts of the chaos gods, but hile the chaos gods controll the warp the c'tan controll physical stuff. hence the c'tan hatred of psykers. therefore ctan are the equals of the chaos gods and you dont see leman russ killing khorne or tzeentch before hes even met the emperor.

I don't doubt you but could you quote it for me? Assuming it does indeed say that then it's a shame because, being more familiar than some with the background on Chaos, I can say with some certainty that the C'Tan are no where near as potent in their dominion of physical space as the Chaos Gods are with the Warp. The Chaos Gods don't suffer the existence of countless alien races in their home as the C'Tan do.

Witchfire
10-10-2007, 19:13
This coming from a daemon no less?



I'm not claiming it's any more than a theory. I'm perfectly prepared to contemplate I'm wrong and I also recognise that other background exists that puts my theory into serious disrepute. Big difference.



I don't doubt you but could you quote it for me? Assuming it does indeed say that then it's a shame because, being more familiar than some with the background on Chaos, I can say with some certainty that the C'Tan are no where near as potent in their dominion of physical space as the Chaos Gods are with the Warp. The Chaos Gods don't suffer the existence of countless alien races in their home as the C'Tan do.

the c'tan have alien slave races, the chaos gods have daemons, no big difference. And the c'tan used to be more powerful than they are now, with hundreds of c'tan, now only 4 left.

and the c'tan do not fight to obtain territory but rather when they are feeling peckish, like popping out for a kebab, abeit a star sized one

Captain Stern
10-10-2007, 19:22
BloodRedSandman: the c'tan have alien slave races, the chaos gods have daemons, no big difference.

I don't think you understood me. In physical space exist countless alien races. At least one race (or 2 if you count humans) know of the C'Tan and openly oppose them (The Eldar almost killed one of the remaining 4 (and the most powerful one of them all to boot)). Other races who aren't aware of the C'Tan would oppose them if they knew of them. And of course you have races that, as you say, are their slaves and would be slaves if they encountered the C'Tan.
In the Warp meanwhile the only creatures who oppose The Chaos Gods are... The Chaos Gods. Everything else in the Warp are either their slaves or are neutrak and of no consequence (such as Astral Hounds).


And the c'tan used to be more powerful than they are now, with hundreds of c'tan, now only 4 left.

So 99% of them have been killed? Wow, I'm impressed. You know, there used to be 3 Chaos Gods. Now there are only 4.


and the c'tan do not fight to obtain territory but rather when they are feeling peckish, like popping out for a kebab, abeit a star sized one

Are you sure about that?

Witchfire
10-10-2007, 19:37
I don't think you understood me. In physical space exist countless alien races. At least one race (or 2 if you count humans) know of the C'Tan and openly oppose them (The Eldar almost killed one of the remaining 4 (and the most powerful one of them all to boot)). Other races who aren't aware of the C'Tan would oppose them if they knew of them. And of course you have races that, as you say, are their slaves and would be slaves if they encountered the C'Tan.
In the Warp meanwhile the only creatures who oppose The Chaos Gods are... The Chaos Gods. Everything else in the Warp are either their slaves or are of no consequence (such as Astral Hounds).



So 99% of them have been killed? Wow, I'm impressed. You know, there used to be 3 Chaos Gods. Now there are only 4.



Are you sure about that?

the c'tan have raised and destroyed entire races, i refer to codex necrons where in a short story some rouge traders learn of a previously savage race who worshipped deceiver who taught them how to become a civilised race, then he went off for a nap and they got reduced to savages again by the imperium and deceiver punished them for regressing by genociding them.

chaos can be compared to someone who goes out to get a pizza to go, the c'tans can be compared to the lazy guy who grows his own pizza tree.

and what is your point? that chaos is better than the c'tan?

the c'tan werent killed by primarchs or other stuff but by eachother, deceiver ate a bunch of his fellows and the outsider c'tan ate the rest and thats why all the over c'tan are terrified of him.

the c'tan went to sleep for a few dozen million years and when they woke up chaos was sitting at their desk with its feet up with a brass nameplate saying- ''BOSS EVIL''.

and yes i am absolutely sure that the c'tan fight when they feel like it, not to regain ground that lesser races ( cattle to c'tan ) took from them when they were asleep.

Captain Stern
10-10-2007, 19:43
and what is your point? that chaos is better than the c'tan?


I don't know if 'better' is appropriate. They do seem to be far more formidable than the C'Tan. Anyway, this thread isn't meant to discuss Chaos vs. C'tan. I'm sure we can agree to disagree?

Witchfire
10-10-2007, 19:49
I don't know if 'better' is appropriate. They do seem to be far more formidable than the C'Tan. Anyway, this thread isn't meant to discuss Chaos vs. C'tan. I'm sure we can agree to disagree?

i think we should stop arguing about whether or not ferrus mannus killed the void dragon full stop because -

1.) he did not

2.) the topic enrages me

3.) my necron army fluff is servants of the void dragon with an allied baneblade at apocalypse and skitarii because of the void dragon/ad mech links

call it a truce and refer to the fluff word for word instead of speculating?:D