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LuckyKa
04-10-2007, 17:29
Ok, sorry for all the questions lately.

Just curious, chapters usually travel around as one yes? All 1000 marines in one grouping unless in a campaign or on duty as requested by who ever.

But the real point is, when seperated. How do they communicate. I realise they use astropath's, and maybe if in close proximity shuttle craft. But When spread over a few lightyears. How do they still realise find one another amongst all the numerous astropaths voices? This especially applies to the likes of Fleet based chapters such as the Black Templars, would they have meet's, Soldiers from each fleet representing eachother at a pre-set location? or would they be seperate entities?

Sorry if it's a stupidly pedantic question. But it just bothers me.

Twisted Ferret
04-10-2007, 18:19
How do Astropaths find the right person to communicate with? :o

I seem to recall the Space Wolves being larger than 1000 marines, from that novel by William King, but maybe not. If chapters are that small it bothers me, though. They'd be so ineffectual. At least 10000, come on!

Scribemite
04-10-2007, 20:37
Astropaths get the message and find relay psykers/astropaths through the Warp to pass on the message. The Relay psykers then pass on the message to the intended recipient's astropath.

Chapters sometimes do not travel and fight as one. See the novel Blood Angels: Deus Encarmine. A bunch of Blood Angels, but not the whole chapter, were on one of their ships. A Space Marine had to get a message to other Blood Angels who were light years away (no details so no spoilers), so he used an astropath to send the message through astropath relay psykers.

Andyalloverdaplace
04-10-2007, 21:31
The trick is that we don't know because the psyker stuff is based on something we have no analogue to. Maybe it's like hearing your name mentioned in a crowded room, nothing is more recognizable than your own name.

It could be like instant messaging, where it goes through quite a few stops along the way but you get exactly what was sent, privately, or it could be like shouting in a crowd in a language only you and the recipient understand. Or all the astropaths could understand it, but they only pass it on to whomever is the intended receiver.

I would imagine communications would be pretty terse when using Astropaths though, as the Marines wouldn't want too many people to know too much about whats going on. It might just be something along the lines of code groupings, that only the reciever could decipher.

Zapherion
04-10-2007, 21:33
Its actually quite rare IMO to find an entire chapter moving and fighting together. Most use single ships or maybe a squadron to get to where they want to be. I cant really think of a single chapter that will always travel and fight together on a regular basis, thought Imperial Fists could if they needed to as they have a big space farring monestry (whos name eludes me)

Argastes
04-10-2007, 22:28
How do Astropaths find the right person to communicate with? :o

I seem to recall the Space Wolves being larger than 1000 marines, from that novel by William King, but maybe not. If chapters are that small it bothers me, though. They'd be so ineffectual. At least 10000, come on!

You're joking, right? Please tell me that this isn't the first time you've ever heard that a Marine chapter has roughly 1,000 marines. That's been established since... well, since Space Marines were introduced to the hobby. Some unorthodox chapters such as the Space Wolves and Black Templars are somewhat larger (maybe as many as 2000 or 2500 marines?), but in general, 700-1200 is about normal. Ten thousand? No way; not since the Horus Heresy!

As for astrotelepathy, I think Andy pretty well summed it up. This question can't really be answered because, unfortunately, the fluff has never said much about the exact functioning of telepathy (astro or otherwise) in the 40K universe. Maybe an astropath can send his message to a designated recipient who is the only one to receive it, or maybe it is like radio communications, where it can be detected by anyone in range (and, possibly, listening on the right "mental frequency"--who knows?). If it's the later case, one assumes it operates much like real-life wartime radio communications, with encryption or codes to prevent anyone but the intended recipient from hearing anything more than 'noise'.

BTW, the Imperial Fists' space fortress is called the Phalanx.

Leftenant Gashrog
04-10-2007, 22:34
Zapherions right, chapters will rarely mobilise their entire might for one engagement, as theres too big a risk they could be utterly decimated, eg: Celestial Lions* and Fire Hawks**

* = all but obliterated by greenskins during the 3rd Armageddon War
** = fortress monastery and entire fleet trapped in warp storm whilst en-route to a warzone, only a single cruiser survived ~ marines on board became the Legion of the Damned


If chapters are that small it bothers me, though. They'd be so ineffectual. At least 10000, come on!

thats the whole point, a single chapter is MEANT to be ineffectual, so as to limit the damage a single treasonous chapter master can do ~ it doesnt drastically affect the Imperiums ability to wage war, if the Imperium needs a job doing that can only be done with 10,000 marines, then it will 'simply' assemble a combined force from a couple of dozen chapters ala the 3rd Armageddon War


maybe as many as 2000 or 2500 marines? actually i believe Black Templars have been rumoured to be 3,000-6,000, but thats scattered around the galaxy in so many different units that even the chapter master may not know how many there are

Ikkaan
05-10-2007, 09:21
Astropathic communication is very much of a black box, but we know some little bits:

-Only an astropath can receive and send messages, no other type of being/computer/other equipment can emulate that function.

-There are astropathic relay stations (space stations housing a number of astropaths).

-Astropaths act as the face of a part of the Adeptus Astra Telepathica, selling their services to probably anyone, not only the military. Traders and everyone that can afford their services are also likely to send messages. The charge is probably obscenely high.

-Being a faithful order of the imperium (they are soul bond to the emperor) they are ultimatively trustworthy to the imperium. That means: If someone tries to send messages that has subversive content the astropath will notify the inquisition.

Obviously, such measureas can and will be countered by inventive senders with encrypted messages. The augmetic enhancements that astropaths undoubtedly pick up in their lifetime enable them not only to send text messages but also digital data (video for instance). While this stresses the astropath a lot (processing messages for his own destination, but also relaying messages to other astropaths), it illustrates why astropaths seem to age very fast and wear out quickly. Its a marathon session for the brain, and after the finish line they drop dead.

How do astropaths filter out the messages directed to their own destination? In "Rogue Star", an astropath excitedly states that he can hear all the other astropaths in the sector sing the song of freedom (or something equal to this meaning, read the book if you want to know more). That fits the setting: Astropaths hear everything and filter out messages by their message headers (in a technical sense, not the title of the message). Encryption will ensure that astropaths will not be able to make sense of the messages they receive. For all other cases the soul bond gives them the mental strength to endure torture till the bitter end.

To me it sounds pretty tight, especially on the danger of eavesdropping. The hardware of the system cannot be emulated (hah), its encrypted on both ends and if part of the system is hijacked it just ceases to function (or reads you an imperial sermon if he/she feels like it).

Shiakou
05-10-2007, 09:41
Just a slight note, Librarians can also receive and send messages, tho maybe over shorter distances.

LuckyKa
05-10-2007, 11:25
Ahh, that makes sense. I was thinking it was a much more simple process. So military factions such as an SM chapter would have there own astropath, but otherwise it's effectivly a bidding war to hire the services of Astropath.

Vaulkhar
05-10-2007, 11:31
Well, the other arms of the Adeptus get theirs for free..would you dare charge the Assassinorum or the Inquisition?

It strikes me as being analogous to the Internet - I don't have a direct link to Warseer from my computer, instead bouncing the signal through several servers (astropaths) unitl it reaches the intended destination. It also makes the network multiply redundant (loads of paths from source to destination), a necessity when dealing with the vagaries of the warp.

Ikkaan
05-10-2007, 13:10
Well, the other arms of the Adeptus get theirs for free..would you dare charge the Assassinorum or the Inquisition?

It strikes me as being analogous to the Internet - I don't have a direct link to Warseer from my computer, instead bouncing the signal through several servers (astropaths) unitl it reaches the intended destination. It also makes the network multiply redundant (loads of paths from source to destination), a necessity when dealing with the vagaries of the warp.

Actually i would. I am 100% sure that navigators charge their clients for moving their ships through the warp (thats why the navigator houses are so ******* wealthy i guess), so astropaths could also charge. A non-replaceable function for keeping the moloch of the imperium going is a sort of a monopoly. Finding psykers, soul bonding and training them plus housing and general logistics for space stations and relays is costly. Someone has to pay for all these services. Maybe the cost for 'adeptus' institutions is negotiable (they need each other) while charges to private customers are probably not.

Bizarrely, the Astropaths themselves won´t be rich. Their life is destined to be hectic and filled with more mental work than they can actually cope with. I imagine them as a sort of mystic monk that charges insane amounts of money for the services of his temple, but not for himself.

Argastes
05-10-2007, 14:14
Actually i would. I am 100% sure that navigators charge their clients for moving their ships through the warp (thats why the navigator houses are so ******* wealthy i guess), so astropaths could also charge. A non-replaceable function for keeping the moloch of the imperium going is a sort of a monopoly. Finding psykers, soul bonding and training them plus housing and general logistics for space stations and relays is costly. Someone has to pay for all these services. Maybe the cost for 'adeptus' institutions is negotiable (they need each other) while charges to private customers are probably not.

Bizarrely, the Astropaths themselves won´t be rich. Their life is destined to be hectic and filled with more mental work than they can actually cope with. I imagine them as a sort of mystic monk that charges insane amounts of money for the services of his temple, but not for himself.

The navigators may come from noble houses, but I don't think there's any indication that the Adeptus Astra Telepathica is anything but a government agency, and it's members anything more than civil servants. It might be reasonable to assume that navigators are in business for themselves despite their alliance to the Imperium, but the same logic doesn't seem to carry over to the AAT. They don't have houses or temples anything like that. They are fully inside the regular bureaucracy of the Imperium, so they just receive their salaries and do whatever they're told, rather than 'charging' for their services (at least when sending messages for Imperial institutions; maybe the AAT can still exact a charge from private parties wishing to send a message). Yes, finding and training them is expensive, but I'd think that it's paid for out of the Imperial treasury as a government expenditure. I mean, modern-day government spending is also quite high in many areas, but that doesn't mean the government agencies with the high costs have to "go into business" for themselves and charge other agencies for the service they provide--high as their costs may be, they are covered 100% by government funding, which ultimately comes from taxpayer monies. So ultimately, I would think the financial burden of maintaining the AAT is borne not by the other Imperial agencies that use it, but by the populations of tithe-paying Imperial planets.

trigger
05-10-2007, 16:43
space marines travel in companys not chapters
and they are only roughly a thousand strong ( space wolves and templars are the exepsion)

as for comunication astropath , vodaphone 40k, long range 2 way raidio or even carier pigeon :evilgrin:

Adra
05-10-2007, 16:48
Well Astropaths and Navigators are totaly different. Navigators are much more rare for a start and, as said, have sort of Unionised themselves into Houses, thus protecting the Navigator gene and themselves from exploitation. Astropaths seem totaly different and each seems to be imployed on an individual basis.

We do know from the fluff that most Astropathic messages are incripted so even the Astropath does not understand them. I belive, from the limited info, that Astro messages are more like Radio and can be interspted by other astropaths, but the original astro attempts to send it to a specific location so that it can be relayed on to the next point or decripted and read. The reason i dont belive its instant and targeted is because the fluff mentions "intercepted" astro messages, implying they where not the intended target.

trigger
05-10-2007, 16:55
Actually i would. I am 100% sure that navigators charge their clients for moving their ships through the warp (thats why the navigator houses are so ******* wealthy i guess),



astropath houses were granted welth by the bigE they dont charge per say the military because they get protection from whom ever it may be that they have ties with,
part of the deal they were given was that they would be comunicators or die for being mutants much the same as navigators

Emperor's Grace
05-10-2007, 18:09
I think that both Navigators and Astropaths charge for services.

Though for marines, =I=, etc..., I imagine that contracts with the Imperium for mutual aid, defense, land titles, tithe easements, etc... replace most needs for actual cash. Actually, service to the SM/imperium could easily be the tithe owed by the noble house as well.

In other words, SM don't worry about paying the individual because their "account" with the individual's noble house is settled ahead of time.

Progena
05-10-2007, 18:41
Certain Houses of the Navis Nobilite are bound by ancient oaths to provide Navigators for specific Astartes Chapters (that House is tied up to that Chapter, and so on).

The Astra Telepathica is like this: "Right, this lightbulb is busted. John! Run down to storage and fetch another one."

Also, each individual Astropath recieves Telepathic messages in his own unique way (symbols, dreams, voices...). It's up to the Astropath to decipher and decode the transfers, which of course leads to insignificant mistakes made once in a while (sending an army to the wrong end of the Galaxy is perfectly acceptable).