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View Full Version : Primarch Physique vs. Marine Physique



Captain Stern
05-10-2007, 02:55
Would they have been of the same proportions?

Why?

Why not?

Argastes
05-10-2007, 03:56
Some would, some wouldn't. The fluff says the Primarchs varied in their physical attributes and size. Some are stated to have been no bigger, or not significantly bigger, than a normal space marine. A few are described as 'giants'; Magnus is the one that springs to mind, and I would guess his height as maybe twelve feet. For most of them, nothing is explicitly said about their height, but I think in most of those cases, it's safe to assume they were Marine-sized or a little larger. In a few cases, items of wargear that were originally carried by a Primarch can give us a concrete indication of their height. For example, the SW special character Ulrik the Slayer has a wargear item called the Wolf Helm of Russ, which originally belonged to Leman Russ himself. Since it fits Ulrik, who is a normal-sized (i.e. 7-8 foot tall) marine, we can assume Leman Russ was only slightly larger, if larger at all, than a normal marine. He probably WAS a little larger than a normal marine, given his portrayal as one of the mightiest and physically strongest primarchs, and indications in the fluff that even to the Space Wolves, he was unusually large in girth and size--maybe nine feet tops? Likewise, the Talon of Horus seems to fit Abaddon fine, Marneus Calgar has no trouble wearing the Gauntlets of Ultramar, the Lion Sword carried by Cypher doesn't seem to be too big for a marine to use, and so forth.

EDIT: Actually, come to think of it, Magnus is the only primarch who is said to be abnormally large. I think it seems to be the case that except for Magnus, all the Primarchs were roughly Marine-sized. For some of those portrayed as less "strength-oriented" (Corax? Alpharius?), maybe more towards average Marine height, whereas for those portrayed as especially powerful warriors (Horus, Russ, etc.) maybe as much as a foot taller than a large marine, but not much more.

Smishkun
05-10-2007, 05:43
Well for the most part in the HH books, the primarchs are described as being taller than regular marines from what I can recall.

Also they are near-always refered to as 'godlike' in presence which my carry over to exaggerate their apperance. But I do know they have a superior physiology and organs(if not more, cant remember but I think they have an extra heart compared to a marine, etc.) which would probably require a greater physique.

Some I know for sure are much larger(or are claimed to be) are : Magnus, Horus, Dorn, Ferrus Manus, and definetly Angron, to name a few.

Some I havent read being much larger (if at all) : Sanguinius(though his wings definetly pick him out of a crowd :P), Fulgrim, and Alpharius.

Tynesh
05-10-2007, 09:28
they are near-always refered to as 'godlike' in presence
Depending on your personal imagery of what a god would look like!

;)

Cheers

Tynesh

Kegluneq
05-10-2007, 09:49
In Descent of Angels, the Lion is described as being close to three metres tall, which is consistant with the rest of the Horus Heresy novels' view of the Primarchs.

bertcom1
05-10-2007, 13:09
In a few cases, items of wargear that were originally carried by a Primarch can give us a concrete indication of their height. For example, the SW special character Ulrik the Slayer has a wargear item called the Wolf Helm of Russ, which originally belonged to Leman Russ himself. Since it fits Ulrik, who is a normal-sized (i.e. 7-8 foot tall) marine, we can assume Leman Russ was only slightly larger, if larger at all, than a normal marine. He probably WAS a little larger than a normal marine, given his portrayal as one of the mightiest and physically strongest primarchs, and indications in the fluff that even to the Space Wolves, he was unusually large in girth and size--maybe nine feet tops? Likewise, the Talon of Horus seems to fit Abaddon fine, Marneus Calgar has no trouble wearing the Gauntlets of Ultramar, the Lion Sword carried by Cypher doesn't seem to be too big for a marine to use, and so forth.

Leman Russ could have had a normal sized head, but a disproportionately large body.

Similarly, the others could have just had normal sized hands.

Captain Stern
05-10-2007, 13:39
Sorry, I should have been more specific. I'm not asking about their height. What I meant to ask was were their bodies of similar proportions to space marines? Were they all herculean? Were some of them thinner than that? e.t.c.

I only ask because sometimes it's hard to be considered 'beautiful' (Sanguinius, for example) when your body looks like a walnut.

Captain Stern
05-10-2007, 13:59
I kind of like the idea that a marine's body is so immensely muscled because his body can barely contain the power of the geneseed.

Anyway, personally I imagine that at the top of the tree of 'buff' would be Magnus who was bordering on Incredible Hulk proportions. At the bottom you'd have Sanguinius and a few others who'd have bodies looking like Ivan Drago's (maybe a little bigger).

Nargus
05-10-2007, 14:14
Leman Russ could have had a normal sized head, but a disproportionately large body.

Similarly, the others could have just had normal sized hands.

GW weapons are disproportionate anyway, if you look at some models, they are wielding a power sword the length of a bus..

Tzaryn
05-10-2007, 14:37
The primarch models were standard size...

I would say that like all legends, the size and ability of the primarchs are exaggerated. Compared to a normal man, a marine is superhuman. Marines venerate the primarchs and so perhaps attribute them even more superhuman qualities?

Nargus
05-10-2007, 14:40
I wasn't referring to Primarch models, but i was saying you can't take the size of any given weapon on a model and use it for a debate as its disproportionate to realistic sizes.

The models look good, but if their weapons were realistically sized the weapons would be much smaller, but then the models would look odd.

Thusly, GW decided a 7 foot tall man with a 12 foot sword gave the feel they wanted.

Chaos Undecided
05-10-2007, 14:56
In one passage of Descent of Angel it actually compares the physiques of The Lion to his marines. Despite being 3 metres tall it would seem the Dark Angels primarch at least was more proportionally normal for a human than the marines who are described as being so abnormally muscled as to have an almost formless body with no noticeable neck.

Tzaryn
05-10-2007, 14:57
Quite right Nargus, there are few weapons that GW produce that are realistically sized (apart from the human DOW AFAIK).

I was referring to the 'original' Primarch models that were just normal marines. I know the fluff gives them more 'oomph' but I would imagine the primarchs to be the perfect specimens of superhuman.

Nargus
05-10-2007, 15:12
Thats how I see some of them. Others I see differently.

Sanguinius I see as lithe and graceful (and Fulgrim Pre-Daemonification).

But Angron I see as 9 foot tall, no neck and muscles the size of tank turrets.

I think each Primarch espouses a different element of the human condition and each is the perfection of that ideal in their own way.

Amornar
05-10-2007, 16:07
I think that Nargus summed it up pretty well

Marsekay
05-10-2007, 16:22
im sure the hersey novels mention the primarch's "towering" over marines how the marines "tower" over normal humans, so youre talking 6" to a foot over a normal marine i reckon.

heretics bane
05-10-2007, 17:15
it was said that Horus stood taller than a marine on a seat when he was bowed down which would give some insite into there size and mortion was said from the flight of the einstein "to have domianted the room eventhough all the marines where standing at full height

Progena
05-10-2007, 18:29
Mortarion was said to be exceptionally tall and... err... thin apparently.

Just wondering why no-one on the Primarchs' respective home planets (except Sanguinius' Baal) went: "Aaaah! Mutant! Purge!" when the Primarchs grew to the height of, or higher than, a Space Marine.

Take the Lion for example. He made his name fighting mutant beasts on his home planet. Someone must've wondered why he was so ******* tall. And he was a KNIGHT (in primitive Power Armour even)! I mean, poor horse!

Sparticus
05-10-2007, 18:43
from the horus heresy books, discriptions of the primarchs hint that they were bigger than marines, i would imagine the primarchs being all roughly the same hight but with different porportions, eg. angron was said to be "brutally strong" indicating a thick build, while fulgrim would have been "perfectly porportioned" and so forth. with marines in there image but smaller

Their size might distinguish them but i believe it would have been there presence in customized and "souped up" power armour that would have distinguished them more visually as usually gernerals in the 40k universe are adorned with tons of extras, minus necrons lol :P

Messiah
05-10-2007, 18:48
Likewise, the Talon of Horus seems to fit Abaddon fine, Marneus Calgar has no trouble wearing the Gauntlets of Ultramar, the Lion Sword carried by Cypher doesn't seem to be too big for a marine to use, and so forth.

What you fail to take into account is that the Lion Sword was originally known as the Lion Dagger, the Gauntlets of Ultramar was actually the Thimbles of Ultramar, and the Talon of Horus was the Needles of Horus.

J/k :p

mistformsquirrel
05-10-2007, 18:51
Would they have been of the same proportions?

Why?

Why not?

Personally, I prefer the approach that Primarchs weren't nearly as big as Marines.

For one - they're genetically engineered from the ground up - there's no insertion of bodyparts that don't originally belong to them, no beefing up a previous form etc...

Primarchs in a lot of ways are their own species. To me that means they wouldn't have to grow strangely just to accommodate everything that was done to them - their bodies would be built ground-up to handle it.

Now of course, this varied by Primarch. We know Magnus was supposedly a giant, for instance. And Sanguinous was the tallest on Baal Secundous (though we don't know how tall that really is, its a good bet if you're the tallest on a planet, you're at least over 7').

Just the same, I don't buy the "Well Marines are 8' tall, so the primarchs must have been HOOOOOOOOOOOOGE" mentality I see a lot of the time. Not only is there no evidence for it, but it just genuinely doesn't stand the logic test well at all; especially given what many of the Primarchs did before their finding.

(For example - how would Night Haunter have done what he did if he were a 15 foot tall musclebound monster? <,<)

That's just my thoughts though, I don't think there's really an official comparison anywhere that I've seen.

Captain Stern
05-10-2007, 19:00
(For example - how would Night Haunter have done what he did if he were a 15 foot tall musclebound monster? <,<)



The world was stuck in perpetual night, wasn't it?
Oh yeh, didn't it say in Codex Imperialis that one of the primarchs had the gift of invisibility? Maybe it was Night Haunter?

Hive Mind 33
05-10-2007, 19:29
Primarchs are taller than marines. i believe it says something about it in the HH novels how Horus was taller than his marines. I also think it said something about Dorn being taller. I think marines are around 7-8 foot tall. and Primarchs are 9-10. foot tall.

Karhedron
05-10-2007, 19:41
In Descent of Angels, the Lion is described as being close to three metres tall, which is consistant with the rest of the Horus Heresy novels' view of the Primarchs.
That would be 9-10 feet tall. Marines are around 7-8 feet IIRC so that would fit with Primarchs being 1-2 feet taller than Marines.

Also note that a muscular guy 9 foot high would be incredibly scary to face. The current record for the tallest human for whom there is irrefutable evidence is Robert Pershing Wadlow. He was born at Alton, Illinois, USA, on February 22, 1918, and when he was last measured on June 27, 1940, was found to be 2.72 m (8 ft 11.1 in) tall. However if you look at the pictures of him he was one the lanky side. Someone of that height with the physique of a body builder would certainly cause the word "giant" to enter my mind (assuming I wasn't already running for my life at this point :D)


Anyway, personally I imagine that at the top of the tree of 'buff' would be Magnus who was bordering on Incredible Hulk proportions. At the bottom you'd have Sanguinius and a few others who'd have bodies looking like Ivan Drago's (maybe a little bigger).
I dunno, Sanguinius picked up a Bloodthirster and broke its back over his knee. I am not suggesting he was on par with a greater daemon but he must have been pretty tall to have enough leverage to manage that.


What you fail to take into account is that the Lion Sword was originally known as the Lion Dagger, the Gauntlets of Ultramar was actually the Thimbles of Ultramar, and the Talon of Horus was the Needles of Horus.
LOL! :D

mistformsquirrel
05-10-2007, 19:44
The world was stuck in perpetual night, wasn't it?
Oh yeh, didn't it say in Codex Imperialis that one of the primarchs had the gift of invisibility? Maybe it was Night Haunter?

I'd never heard of one of them being able to go invisible... *possible* I suppose; but it doesn't suit the way I've always heard of Night Haunter being presented.

And yeah, its true the world was stuck in perpetual night - but even if its dark out, its hard to hide a 10 foot tall giant, especially when he's chasing people down and dismembering them >.>

Granted, there's nothing really to say one way or the other; but I've always viewed Night Haunter almost like a much bloodier Batman. About 6' to 6'3", 200-225lbs, very agile etc...

I find the whole "Primarchs are 15' tall monsters" thing... just silly I guess. (But then, I've never understood the idea of infiltrating in Power Armor either, so you could just say I'm picky)

I do seem to recall hearing that Russ was actually on the small side; but that may just be due to the old model; and not an actual fluff bit.

jfrazell
05-10-2007, 19:55
Mortarion was said to be exceptionally tall and... err... thin apparently.

Just wondering why no-one on the Primarchs' respective home planets (except Sanguinius' Baal) went: "Aaaah! Mutant! Purge!" when the Primarchs grew to the height of, or higher than, a Space Marine.



Well there are two missing primarchs...

mistformsquirrel
05-10-2007, 20:10
Well there are two missing primarchs...

I thought there was confirmation at some point that they were indeed found, had legions, and then those were what were erased?

Though I suppose if they never were found, and that was the reason, it'd make sense.

DivineVisitor
05-10-2007, 20:35
I thought there was confirmation at some point that they were indeed found, had legions, and then those were what were erased?

Though I suppose if they never were found, and that was the reason, it'd make sense.

I think your right that they were found, Im sure i can remember there being a number of places where it has been said that all 20 Primarchs were found.

Argastes
05-10-2007, 23:57
I wasn't referring to Primarch models, but i was saying you can't take the size of any given weapon on a model and use it for a debate as its disproportionate to realistic sizes.

The models look good, but if their weapons were realistically sized the weapons would be much smaller, but then the models would look odd.

Thusly, GW decided a 7 foot tall man with a 12 foot sword gave the feel they wanted.

That's very true, but my argument about the size of the Primarch's wargear doesn't just hinge on observation of the models. I'm not saying that we can look at Ulrik's model and go "Well, this helmet was worn by Russ and it looks normal-sized on the model, so we can assume that Russ was the same size as a marine"; I'm saying that we can look at the fluff itself, the written components, and realize that the writers would not have written about various marines wearing Primarch's wargear if they were simultaneously saying that the Primarchs were much bigger than an ordinary marine. I'm actually a huge opponent of using models to judge the "real" size of things in 40K, for exactly the reasons you point out, but in this case we don't have to--the use of Primarch's wargear by normal marines is firmly grounded in the fluff, and the models never come into it. So unless we assume Russ looked like that alien from the beginning of MIB that grows it's head back after Will Smith shoots it off, I think it's same to assume that Russ was not much taller than about eight feet. Nine would be possible but pushing it.


I thought there was confirmation at some point that they were indeed found, had legions, and then those were what were erased?

Though I suppose if they never were found, and that was the reason, it'd make sense.

Yes, the two missing primarchs were found, each had a legion under them, and then all mention of their two legions was expunged from all records following the HH. This is made explicitly clear in the fluff, which says things like "All mention of the second and eleventh legions has been erased from the records", and "It is unknown what role these legions played in the Heresy".

Incidentally, I agree with you about Night Haunter's size, although I'd picture him maybe a LITTLE bigger than that. Certainly no more than 7" though.

As for the issue of invisibility, I also agree with you and I think that's one of the bits of fluff that didn't survive an edition change--there's definitely no evidence that Night Haunter could turn invisible. When you weigh the respective merits of a detailed article about Night Haunter (the Night Lords IA) which mentions NOTHING about invisibility, and a single throwaway line in the Codex Imperialis which intimates that ONE of the primarchs (not even necessarily Night Haunter) could become invisible, there's absolutely no reason to assume that the latter was talking about him and overrides the former. The logical conclusion: Night Haunter could NOT turn invisible. I think when the CI was being written way back when, the writer responsible for that bit just said "Okay, I need to mention another strange power of the Primarchs and I've already got flight.... hmm, not eye-beams, not shape-shifting.... Ahh, invisibility, that sounds cool!" and he wrote it down without a second thought, and even though it was never again mentioned in any other fluff, that little decision has led to countless undiscriminating 40K fans saying to themselves "Holy crap, one of the primarchs can turn in invisible! I wonder which one!"

Higherlander
06-10-2007, 00:07
Not every primarch can be labeled as "Particularly tall for a primarch". There'd be nothing to base the comparison on.
Clearly, the tallest primarch was Magnus the Red, noted as being the giant. He was probably just tall and slender as his focus was upon mental and psychic warfare instead of brute force.
Most of the rest were of similar height, but varying builds. Angron and Vulkan were noted as being broad shouldered and muscular, where Sanguinius and Corax were probably more lithe and nimble. Of course, Fulgrim was perfectly proportioned :rolleyes:.
After Magnus, iirc the next tallest were Horus, Lion, and Russ. Makes sense too, as they were the most legendary and had the best Crusade records.
As for Night Haunter being invisible, if you've ever stalked someone before you'd know how easy it is to not be seen. I assume it'd be much easier if you are as insanely fast and smart as a primarch.

I forgot that in one of the first three HH books, Horus was seen kneeling before one of his captains and they were eye level. It was also mentioned in the early books that a Primarch dwarves a Marine as a Marine dwarfs an average human.

MadDogMike
06-10-2007, 00:18
Just wondering why no-one on the Primarchs' respective home planets (except Sanguinius' Baal) went: "Aaaah! Mutant! Purge!" when the Primarchs grew to the height of, or higher than, a Space Marine.

All the planets they wound up on were fairly primitive anyway so I don't know if they even realized the Primarchs were beyond human except those with obvious mutations like Sanguinius, and of course they all grew up to their final size over time from infancy so it's not like they started ridiculously huge. Besides, back then it seems even the Imperium wasn't into "Aaaah! Mutant! Purge!" mode :D.

Nazguire
06-10-2007, 00:23
Not every primarch can be labeled as "Particularly tall for a primarch". There'd be nothing to base the comparison on.
Clearly, the tallest primarch was Magnus the Red, noted as being the giant. He was probably just tall and slender as his focus was upon mental and psychic warfare instead of brute force.
Most of the rest were of similar height, but varying builds. Angron and Vulkan were noted as being broad shouldered and muscular, where Sanguinius and Corax were probably more lithe and nimble. Of course, Fulgrim was perfectly proportioned :rolleyes:.
After Magnus, iirc the next tallest were Horus, Lion, and Russ. Makes sense too, as they were the most legendary and had the best Crusade records.
As for Night Haunter being invisible, if you've ever stalked someone before you'd know how easy it is to not be seen. I assume it'd be much easier if you are as insanely fast and smart as a primarch.

I forgot that in one of the first three HH books, Horus was seen kneeling before one of his captains and they were eye level. It was also mentioned in the early books that a Primarch dwarves a Marine as a Marine dwarfs an average human.

Looking at the Sabretooth art for Magnus, he wasn't tall and slender. He was big in all aspects. The tall and lanky one would be Mortarion, as is described in Flight of the Eisenstein. Whilst Angron was tall and built like a brick, Mortarion was tall and built from whipcord muscle.

Agreed with the stalking part. In a world of perpetual night it wouldn't be hard either, particularly if you grew up there, without a home and the only way to feed yourself was to remain hidden at all times to catch food (in Night Haunter's case, stray dogs and rats and cats and things)

The part in Horus Rising where Horus can kneel and look a standing Captain in the eye is, whilst good reading, unbelievable. Given that Loken, like all Marines, is 7 foot tall or thereabouts, Horus must be close to ten feet tall or taller in order to do that. WAY too big.

I can see most Primarchs being 8 and a half feet tall. So still damned big, damn intimidating, and easily able to fill a room without much hassle. But any taller than that (asides Magnus or Mortarion perhaps) is bordering on stupid.

And it's also important to note peoples that when the Marines describe the Primarchs as god-like, they aren't just referring to their physical presence. It's also the force of personality and charisma that they possess, no matter who they are, Angron or Sanguinius.

Captain Stern
06-10-2007, 00:41
The reason The Lion Helm, Gauntlets of Ultramar, Wolfhelm of Russ e.t.c. look as if they're marine sized is because the primarchs being gigantic is new, introduced by the new range of novels. I happen to like the change. Height is effective for leadership and authority. It also makes them stand out which helps cement their status as living symbols of human achievement, triumph, confidence e.t.c.

Nothing stupid about it. The Emperor obviously had these advantages for them in mind when he designed them. The only downside to their gigantic size was that it made them larger targets, but that's not something they really had to worry about (for a number of reasons).

EDIT/ UPDATE

I'm guessing that the variance in their sizes and shapes is a result of their exposure to the warp, and that originally they were all the same size.

Argastes
06-10-2007, 00:43
The part in Horus Rising where Horus can kneel and look a standing Captain in the eye is, whilst good reading, unbelievable. Given that Loken, like all Marines, is 7 foot tall or thereabouts, Horus must be close to ten feet tall or taller in order to do that. WAY too big.

I can see most Primarchs being 8 and a half feet tall. So still damned big, damn intimidating, and easily able to fill a room without much hassle. But any taller than that (asides Magnus or Mortarion perhaps) is bordering on stupid.

Agreed 110%; couldn't have said it better myself. Although the HH books are interesting reads (actually I think they're total crap, but I still find them "interesting" since they contain lots of discussion of a fictional setting that I find interesting), much of their descriptive content seems to be churned out without much thought of common sense or plausibility, going only by what the author thinks sounds cool as he sits there slapping his keyboard. If he gets a coolness-chubby from the idea of Horus being eleven feet tall, then BAM! he writes it and there it is, as much a part of the official canon as the contents of the rulebook's own background section, even though a brief moment of intelligent consideration would reveal this idea to be utterly absurd. I guess that's what happens when you hire a bunch of glorified fanfic writers (not even the best fanfic writers....) to produce official background material--and especially when you encourage them to churn it out as fast as possible. Go figure.

mistformsquirrel
06-10-2007, 00:47
Looking at the Sabretooth art for Magnus, he wasn't tall and slender. He was big in all aspects. The tall and lanky one would be Mortarion, as is described in Flight of the Eisenstein. Whilst Angron was tall and built like a brick, Mortarion was tall and built from whipcord muscle.

Agreed with the stalking part. In a world of perpetual night it wouldn't be hard either, particularly if you grew up there, without a home and the only way to feed yourself was to remain hidden at all times to catch food (in Night Haunter's case, stray dogs and rats and cats and things)

The part in Horus Rising where Horus can kneel and look a standing Captain in the eye is, whilst good reading, unbelievable. Given that Loken, like all Marines, is 7 foot tall or thereabouts, Horus must be close to ten feet tall or taller in order to do that. WAY too big.

I can see most Primarchs being 8 and a half feet tall. So still damned big, damn intimidating, and easily able to fill a room without much hassle. But any taller than that (asides Magnus or Mortarion perhaps) is bordering on stupid.

And it's also important to note peoples that when the Marines describe the Primarchs as god-like, they aren't just referring to their physical presence. It's also the force of personality and charisma that they possess, no matter who they are, Angron or Sanguinius.

This is very true. The Primarchs being the children of the Emperor himself (well, genetically engineered anyway) must have *massive* amounts of charisma. I mean hell, the Emperor was apparently able to wrangle together enough people on Earth to get into space and launch the Crusade... given the difficulty of doing that in the best of times... imagine how rough that must have been on a nearly-dead Terra...

Another thing I've always thought - and its backed up by a few quotes; but I think all of the Primarchs would have had at least a low-level Psychic presence to them. A sort of "awe" just being around them would generate.

The reason I say that, is that we know they were inhumanly strong - to the point where even their incredible physical muscle just wasn't enough to account for it. I've even heard it described as "warp-fueled" strength. There's also the several indications of the Emperor dealing with Chaos in order to create them. None of that is to say "OMG ALL THE PRIMARCHS WERE PSYKERS!"

But rather, that they likely had a supernatural element to them above and beyond what their physique would indicate.

I think of it somewhat like the quote from Braveheart, where William Wallace is talking to the men who don't believe he is who he says he is.

"William Wallace is 10 feet tall!"

"Aye, and he can shoot fire from his eyes and thunderbolts from his ****."

Its the same kind of exaggeration I think we see with discussion of the primarchs. They are legendary figures of immense power, and its only human to envision them as being larger than life "for real" as opposed to being 'just a bit big'.

Nazguire
06-10-2007, 01:06
Agreed 110%; couldn't have said it better myself. Although the HH books are interesting reads (actually I think they're total crap, but I still find them "interesting" since they contain lots of discussion of a fictional setting that I find interesting), much of their descriptive content seems to be churned out without much thought of common sense or plausibility, going only by what the author thinks sounds cool as he sits there slapping his keyboard. If he gets a coolness-chubby from the idea of Horus being eleven feet tall, then BAM! he writes it and there it is, as much a part of the official canon as the contents of the rulebook's own background section, even though a brief moment of intelligent consideration would reveal this idea to be utterly absurd. I guess that's what happens when you hire a bunch of glorified fanfic writers (not even the best fanfic writers....) to produce official background material--and especially when you encourage them to churn it out as fast as possible. Go figure.

See, I agree with you there about authors trying as hard as possible to make the Primarchs seem as 'cool' as possible for the reader to the detriment of the book. That''s only natural given everyone's expectations about what the Primarchs are meant to be like.

I never really had extreme moments of disbelief with Abnett's book. There was still moments of 'he's too big' but for the most part, Abnett played up their immense charisma and personality, the most significant being (obviously Horus). His charm and oratory and skill with people was what made him such an inhuman 'god-like' being, not his immense stature (though he still had that)

When we got to False Gods it played more upon his huge physique as well as Angron's (but Angron you need to go there, that's what his character is, a brute with a big ass axe). Fulgrim's 'divinity' was portrayed through his flawless features and his Marines like Tarvitz and Lucius, two sides of the Fulgrim coin. But with Horus it seemed McNeill was trying to make him even bigger than what Abnett had already concocted him to be.

Yes he was larger then the Marines by a good foot. That didnt make him the size of a small house. He didn't need to lie flat on his back in order to make the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus able to look him in the eye.

Whilst in complete contrast, Magnus wasn't described as being a gargantuan goliath at all, out of all the Primarchs he counts as the one most deserving. Magnus the Red, Cyclops Magnus, etc.

By Galaxy in Flames it didnt seem to matter about personality, moreover just who could kill the most in the shortest amount of time. The only Primarch I see as being a homicidal killing machine with the personality depth of a puddle is Angron, not Mortarion or Horus. Both seem to be particularly sophisticated, intelligent and cultured, yet weren't in this book portrayed as such at any length.

Though Flight of the Eisenstein did a good job at describing both Mortarion's physical presence and charisma in equal amounts. He was bloody tall, thin, gaunt and ugly as hell, but he was still ''beloved'' by his Marines and the remembrancers on board which is an achievement in itself (we all know how hard it is, honestly, to attach any sort of emotional connection to someone or something that is as ugly as sin)

Progena
06-10-2007, 12:20
Height is effective for leadership and authority. It also makes them stand out which helps cement their status as living symbols of human achievement, triumph, confidence e.t.c.


Indeed, there has been some studies on this. Apparently, in the majority of American elections throughout history the tallest candidate has won (discounting the last two presidential campaigns of course). Height encourages a familiar feeling of paternity from the voter towards the candidate (bah, might've messed up that, what I mean is that the voter sees the candidate as a fatherly figure). The Primarchs were the 'fathers' of the Space Marines so it would make sense if they were taller than your average Marine. Though excessive height would inspire fear and inferiority. My guess is that most Primarchs were no more than a head taller than your average (note: Space Marine height also varies) Marine.

Argastes
06-10-2007, 16:05
Indeed, there has been some studies on this. Apparently, in the majority of American elections throughout history the tallest candidate has won (discounting the last two presidential campaigns of course). Height encourages a familiar feeling of paternity from the voter towards the candidate (bah, might've messed up that, what I mean is that the voter sees the candidate as a fatherly figure). The Primarchs were the 'fathers' of the Space Marines so it would make sense if they were taller than your average Marine. Though excessive height would inspire fear and inferiority. My guess is that most Primarchs were no more than a head taller than your average (note: Space Marine height also varies) Marine.

I could agree with that--taller, but no more than a head taller.

codicium_aeternum
06-10-2007, 18:21
IIRC a primarch is as big again as a marine is compared to a normal human

so if a marine is 1.5 times a human height then a primarch is 2 times a human...

so with magnus, 10-12 feet is about right

Captain Stern
06-10-2007, 21:10
I can live with that.

Magnus and Russ are still huge, however.
I always got the impression that the primarch who enjoyed the strongest bond between himself and his legion was Russ. I don't think being that much bigger than the marines would have caused resentment. I think you have to be equal to your underlings in many ways for that to happen, and a primarch was anything but (thus why the DA's background doesn't work imo).

Argastes
07-10-2007, 07:02
IIRC a primarch is as big again as a marine is compared to a normal human

so if a marine is 1.5 times a human height then a primarch is 2 times a human...

so with magnus, 10-12 feet is about right

If a marine is 1.5 times a human height, then that means even the "average" marine is eight and a half to nine feet tall, which I think most of us can agree is a little ridiculous. And Magnus was definitely bigger than the other Primarchs; so while he in particular may have been 10-12 feet, the others almost certainly weren't. Again... the fact their wargear can be used by regular marines indicates that at least Russ and Horus were about the same size as a marine, not 10-12 feet tall. And since Russ and Horus were two of the most physically robust primarchs, the others (except Magnus, and maybe Mortarian) probably weren't any bigger.

Higherlander
08-10-2007, 01:10
Some of the GW stores have "life size" marines. The one in Ontario, CA has one, and I believe the Battle Bunker in LA has several. They're about 7~7.5 feet tall.
Based on that, and I know its just a big toy, that's probably the average height of the average marine fully armored. I imagine that neophytes would be shorter in stature whilst some of the veterans would be taller.

I'm sure this has been done before, but lets just see where it goes...
Tallest in height for Primarchs (speculation, open for massive opinionitude):
1. Magnus the Red
2-4. Horus, Mortarion, Russ
5-7. Dorn, Perturabo, Angron
8-9. Vulkan, Lion
10. Fulgrim (Right in the middle, Perfect Boy)
11-14. Khan, Ferrus, Guilliman, Lorgar
15-17. Sanguinius, Corax, Haunter
18-19. Erased Primarchs
20. Alpharius
I put Alpharius last because I remember something from IA:AL. When Horus first found Alph, he didn't realize he was a primarch at first. This either means Alph was particularly small (read: stealthy) or that all the primarchs were marine sized unarmored.

chris.seraphim
08-10-2007, 11:00
I'd say that a lot of the 'godlike' thing comes from their precense, their sheer charisma and competence etc. They were largely a bit bigger than your average Astartes (so pretty damn huge to your normal homo sapiens!) but because of the force of their personalities etc. they seemed bigger.

Barnaby XVI
08-10-2007, 15:36
The Model For Magnus in the old epic Game was about half the hight of a warhound titan

Suicide Messiah
08-10-2007, 17:40
That was demon prince Magnus though.

Nargus
09-10-2007, 10:25
I have to agree their personality seems to make them 'larger than life' and this is portrayed in the HH books quite well I think.

It does refer to Russ as a giant of a man and things like that, so i think some of the more warlike and brutal would have been bigger still..

Wazzahamma
09-10-2007, 16:33
I'm not sure why Alpharius keeps getting pegged as the littlest primarch, especially since his is more or less the only IA article to give us relative comparisons between primarch sizes:


More than foot taller even than the Luna Wolves Space Marines, he had piercing green eyes and looked almost a match for Horus himself.

and


Our great Lord and Primarch Roboute Guilliman himself strode forward, ignoring the melee around him, straight towards Alpharius. The two Primarch's stood before each other. They were equal in stature...

Alpharius seems to be on par physically with both Horus and Guilliman.

If we take the HH novels into account then Magnus is equal in stature to Horus as well, and not any larger.
Angron is described as the same height as other primarchs but much broader.
Likewise, Ferrus is described as broader than the rest (perhaps equal to Angron) and taller (I think. Anyone care to clarify?).
Fulgrim is described as being slimmer as is Corax, though both must have been hugely muscled in comparison to normal humans.
Mortarion is extremely lean to the point of being guant, but covered with wiry and powerful muscle.
Dorn and Vulcan appear to be of about the same size as Horus.

Nargus
09-10-2007, 16:39
The first quote is fairly convincing, but i wouldn't trust the Smurfs... :D

Progena
09-10-2007, 16:42
The first quote is fairly convincing, but i wouldn't trust the Smurfs... :D

Though, if the UM were lying they'd say something like: "His Awesomeness Supreme-Primarch Guilliman looked down on his despicably puny little traitor once-brother who barely reached His chest-height." :rolleyes: