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malika
03-09-2005, 15:03
Okay this is something Im curious about. We've seen the Servitors serve in the Adeptus Mechanicus, Inquisition and Adeptus Astartes. But where else do the Servitors serve? Are there commercial servitors which people could just buy? Would a Servitor be the Imperium's answer to a slave?

So would wealthy civilians own servitors? What kind of servitors would those be?

Philip S
03-09-2005, 15:08
I think servitors are an Imperial thing via the Ad-mec, and wealthy civilian could acquire one if they have the right Ad-Mec contacts and close links with the Imperium.

Philip

malika
03-09-2005, 15:23
I know that becomming a Servitor is either a punishment given by the Adeptus Mechanicus to criminals, or they are cloned humans with bionical upgrades IIRC.

But would the Adeptus Mechanicus sell them?

Philip S
03-09-2005, 15:27
I know that becomming a Servitor is either a punishment given by the Adeptus Mechanicus to criminals, or they are cloned humans with bionical upgrades IIRC.

But would the Adeptus Mechanicus sell them?
Sell ‘holy’ technology to a non Ad-Mec? I think lend would be a more accurate description, but the Ad-Mec could lend anyone a servitor if they have reason to do so (and access).

Philip

Wiseman
03-09-2005, 15:28
I think that hte mechanicus would see them as to valuable to sell on mass, they might sell them, but only at a high enough price.

Rabid Bunny 666
03-09-2005, 15:28
i think they are pretty commom, there are med servitors (from some irom hands fluff), tech servitors and generic servitors

Wiseman
03-09-2005, 15:36
I'd forgotten about med servitors, i was just thinking of the mechanicus ones like the repair servitors, i guess they would be comon, but it depends on where you are, catachan youd be lucky to find one on, but on an industrial planet id say you could find plenty running errands and the like

Yodhrin
03-09-2005, 15:56
I would think so yes. Any civilised world with an upper-class would likely have a contingent of Tech-Priests there, and any criminals who would perhaps not survive forced labour, or are from a world where forced labour isnt possible, could be turned into a servitor and then sold or gifted to noble families and rich merchants.

They would have no idea how to repair them beyond basic maintenance though, so if one was badly damaged somehow it would likely just be destroyed or handed back to the AdMech for parts.

cromdubh
03-09-2005, 17:57
I would say that on industrialised worlds, servitors would be extremely common. Since the Imperium has an abhorance for robots, servitors would be employed in factory production lines, mining and any other dangerous and/or monotonous tasks.

There would probably be a fair few on agri worlds as well

Khaine's Messenger
03-09-2005, 18:36
Servitors of various sorts will be common on every world in the Imperium except maybe feral worlds (and there only maybe because some Feral Worlds have substantial Imperial enclaves). The most common would be load-lifters and "toolkit" servitors of various specialities (and servo-skulls, if you include those as servitors). Going the next step towards autopilots, computer/communication interfaces, bodyguards, and butlers (nevermind more esoteric dandies like servo-cherubs), or including a ton of them for grins and giggles over aesthetic preferences, would require a bit of doing, though.

And cost isn't really much of an issue, as the AdMech is in a position to make all of their "good" money on repairs, fuel (no one really talks much about how the organic components of servitors are kept alive these days), and upgrades, and not one-off sales in durable goods (which servitors really aren't). And by and large the AdMech would not see them as too valuable to sell, as they're relatively "easy" to make, as opposed to those technologies that they have yet to even make a dent in their understanding of. The primary problem would be shipping them if there aren't local sources to draw from.

Kage2020
03-09-2005, 20:25
For me, Khaines Messenger comes closer to the 'truth' than anyone thus far. It is far too easy to blanket Imagery over everything within the 40k universe, which tends to answer one thing and debunk something else (unless you're concentrating on the Image of that 'something else', in which case you've debunked something else!).

So, again for me, are servitors common? Yes, I would say they are. After all they are in essence, if not specific 'flavour', just robots by another name. (And, no, I'm not talking about the suggestion that servitors and robots are indistinguishable just because of certain commonalities in computer architecture! ;))

Are they treated as a commodity? I don't see why not. Other than the generic (and arguably irrational, all things considered) proscription against - gasp! horror! - the 'Machine' they are just robots: a means of 'remotely' performing repetitive, dangerous or undesireable activities. Are they 'special' to the adeptus mechanicus? That's contentious, but even if they are so are all machines...

Would this be considered purchase or borrowing of a servitor? I would imagine that it is rental/lease, the same as the services of Astropaths, Navigators, Charters (sometimes), etc.

Let us not over mysticise the concept of the servitor merely because it is a 'unique' reaction against the 'Machine' and, therefore, robots. It remains a robot by another name, operating like one and having many, if not all, of the same problems (maintenance, power/maintenance, etc.) and, arguably, a great deal more disadvantages!

Kage

cailus
05-09-2005, 13:36
I believe they wouldn't be that common unless it's an Admech world.

I think that the Imperium would be a labour intensive world as opposed to capital intensive. Several factors push me towards this thinking:

1.) AI is shunned/banned after the Age of Strife. Servitors perform simple functions, not complicated ones that require "thinking".

2.) Technological knowledge is jealously guarded by the Admech. This means that access to such knowledge is most likely highly censored. Of course there would be leaks and a thriving black market, that would also include alien tech (e.g. possible use of Tau tech in Necromunda).

3.) Many Imperial industrialised worlds have huge populations. Such populations need to be "occupied" as well as fed and clothed. Therefore labour intensive factories make sense - they give people a livelihood and keep them relatively content, though still impoverished (e.g. 18th/19th century Europe, middle income Asian and Latin American states in the 20th/early 21st centuries).

4.) Most Imperial citizens live in highly dictatorial systems in which the rich jealously guard their wealth. It is therefore safe to assume that many Imperial subjects live in poverty and could not afford expensive toys such as servitors.

5.) Overall I think that most Imperial socieities would be similar to the Gou'auld societies in Star Gate - the ruling class have access to high technology, while the lower classes live in almost a medieval state.

6.) Religious implications - most citizens would be highly superstitious and would struggle to deal with technology given that they are told it's bad by their religious leaders.

Sai-Lauren
05-09-2005, 14:01
Since the Imperium has an abhorance for robots, servitors would be employed in factory production lines, mining and any other dangerous and/or monotonous tasks.
That's pretty much how I see them as well. They're mostly vat grown lumps of flesh with enough of an intelligence to learn the task they're required to do, and redimentary immune, circulatory and digestive systems to keep them working. There'd be large ones for cargo handling, small ones for maintenance of airvents and similar spaces and near enough everything in between.

I don't see household servitors (akin to how dinosaurs do everything from mowing the lawn to playing records in the Flintstones) for anyone except the very rich and possibly the military - at staff level, not regimental - but industrial ones would be fairly common.

pnweerar
05-09-2005, 14:36
They're mostly vat grown lumps of flesh with enough of an intelligence to learn the task they're required to do, and redimentary immune, circulatory and digestive systems to keep them working. There'd be large ones for cargo handling, small ones for maintenance of airvents and similar spaces and near enough everything in between.


This could pretty much describe any low class hiver too though!

I too doubt that servitors are cheap. Look at where they appear - military installations, rogue trader ships, ad mech facilities, the homes of spire nobles.

Probably more cost effective and certainly better workers, and the hordes of habbers and scum of the Hive worlds.

Navin

Kage2020
05-09-2005, 15:02
AI is shunned/banned after the Age of Strife.
Do you not think that this is a part of the Image of the 40k universe that tends to be slapped over everything, in much the same way that you (the generic 'you', not you personally) can be quite heavy-handed in putting butter onto toast?


Servitors perform simple functions, not complicated ones that require "thinking".
Even simple functions require 'thinking', to an extent at least.


Technological knowledge is jealously guarded by the Admech.
Yes, advanced technical knowledge. After you have that Image from the setting up there for everyone to look at you also begin to wonder just how much knowledge is 'advanced'. Is everyone that puts a new lightbulb in a TechPriest? What about the weaponsmith who forges a sword, or blacksmith/farrier that makes horseshoes?


Many Imperial industrialised worlds have huge populations. Such populations need to be "occupied" as well as fed and clothed.
The extent to which 'employment' extends across Imperial worlds is, of course, a feature of the government and, therefore, the Imperial Commander. Surely?


Most Imperial citizens live in highly dictatorial systems in which the rich jealously guard their wealth. It is therefore safe to assume that many Imperial subjects live in poverty and could not afford expensive toys such as servitors.
Surely that depends on how 'expensive' they are in the first place? While I would agree that not every "Imperial home" has a servitor, I would still say that they are a common sight.


Overall I think that most Imperial socieities would be similar to the Gou'auld societies in Star Gate - the ruling class have access to high technology, while the lower classes live in almost a medieval state.
I'd agree with class/wealth-based access to technology, but find that it beggers belief (for me) that everyone else lives in a 'medieval state'. Indeed, the 'fluff' doesn't necessarily conform with that suggestion unless, of course, it happens to be a medieval world... ;) Or some other combination of features.


Religious implications - most citizens would be highly superstitious and would struggle to deal with technology given that they are told it's bad by their religious leaders.
Pragmatism. When dealing with something one tends to acquire a blaise attitude towards its use even though one might be aware of the problems or special situations of that use.


Since the Imperium has an abhorance for robots, servitors would be employed in factory production lines, mining and any other dangerous and/or monotonous tasks.
Which is to say that they're robots by another name. :D


That's pretty much how I see them as well. They're mostly vat grown lumps of flesh with enough of an intelligence to learn the task they're required to do, and redimentary immune, circulatory and digestive systems to keep them working.
That's a whole different situation. Here you're talking about a "bioroid" rather than a "cyborg". The 'fluff' tends to concentrate towards the latter for their 'servitors'. Furthermore, the 'fluff' also suggests that there are varying levels of 'intelligence' for servitors...

Also, not all servitors are vat grown! :D


I too doubt that servitors are cheap. Look at where they appear - military installations, rogue trader ships, ad mech facilities, the homes of spire nobles.
One could also look at what we hear about in the 'fluff'... The greater majority of the 'fluff' is about the rich and the military. Furthermore, you've also got the 'blinker affect' when talking about servitors, or at least potentially: they can be so common that people just don't realise that they're around.

Kage

Philip S
05-09-2005, 18:23
Do you not think that this is a part of the Image of the 40k universe that tends to be slapped over everything, in much the same way that you (the generic 'you', not you personally) can be quite heavy-handed in putting butter onto toast?
I don’t think AI is shunned just not used as most think, I put the STC now as a Implant based technology (instant knowledge seems to fit the Golden Age ideals), this means a human is the computer that makes all the judgement calls and can link directly into everything, storage, draft machines even directly download conceived plans to the shop floor.

The reason the Implants fail is because the warp storms cut of humanity from the big corporations who make and encode the implant. Once cut off the supplies eventually run out. I think during this time humans did the only thing they could, they desperately tried to get as much knowledge and designs out of the Implants and into blue print form as they could, but the amount of data would have been vast, because having design rules is compact, having final designs is endless. That’s why only printouts are every found and never a functioning STC, the bio-ware Implants rotted away millennia ago.

Ad-Mec now control the Implant business, they own ‘technical knowledge’ down to the last bolt. All advanced technology is anything ‘advanced’ form magical sci-fi systems to running a fossil fuel power plant, if it’s anything more than ‘consumer’ technology the Ad-Mec own it and control it.

Servitors are common in 40K, but so are the Ad-Mec, about as common as engineers, mechanics, IT professionals and doctors. The Ad-Mec are everywhere, and they have their roots in common social structure in our world.

Imagine if we didn’t have the net, TV, or books on anything technical, that the only way to knowledge was via a single organisation with a lot of power, similar in principle to the church in the middle-ages. Most people in 40K are like the peasants of that time, so could a peasant build a Personal Computer just by looking at it? Would they know about ESD? That mud and electronic don’t mix? Could they install Linux from command line? Would they even see a use for it once made? (I wonder if most could do that today it the media disappeared the day before).

Without free information, it’s hard to learn, and with implants there are no books on complicated stuff (that’s the beauty of implants), you either have the implant or you don’t, you either are Ad-Mec or you’re not. To top it all off, implants hold vast amounts of information far more than a person could learn in a complete lifetime and cogitators don’t come with a GUI, they come with a jack plug for mind-link.

Technology depends on Implants, and only the Ad-Mec can make and program them, you could say that the Implant is the cut off point of technology membership. Once you can make them you can get into Ad-Mec stuff and make copies, but even in our modern world we can’t make these Implants, even with all our technology we would be locked out of the Imperial loop.

Philip

Kage2020
05-09-2005, 19:31
I don’t think AI is shunned just not used as most think...
Again, the blanket term AI being used. I would personally say that AI technology as most people use it - true Machine Intelligence (MI) - is barely used at all, if at all. I do, however, agree with the idea that much of the technology of the 40k universe is 'hidden', either out of mind (background) or obfuscated in more primitive forms. With that said, I would also suggest that this is mistaken from simplicity or representative of a lack of technology.


I put the STC now as a Implant based technology (instant knowledge seems to fit the Golden Age ideals)...
I'm going to disagree that STC is implant-based since the 'fluff' would suggest otherwise. 'Instant knowledge' may be G/DAoT but that doesn't mean that you have to have a portable human computer, or Mentat as they are otherwise known.

Admittedly the process of knowledge degradation is the same for 'human' as it is 'computer', just on a different scale. In this case I'm going to go with the 'fluff' (with suitable additions to make it more reasonable!), though.


That’s why only printouts are every found and never a functioning STC, the bio-ware Implants rotted away millennia ago.
There are alternative explanations from the 'human condition' (i.e. people destroyed it once they felt they had everything they needed as a means of maintaining power), to technical issues (degradation of storage media), to arrogance (i.e. the adeptus mechanicus wouldn't recognise it if they saw it!), etc.

So for me? Naaaah.... An interesting alternative 40k universe, though.

Kage

Philip S
05-09-2005, 19:49
I'm going to disagree that STC is implant-based since the 'fluff' would suggest otherwise. 'Instant knowledge' may be G/DAoT but that doesn't mean that you have to have a portable human computer, or Mentat as they are otherwise known.
The Ad-Mec do use Implants, the STC is G/DAoT and the fluff doesn’t rule it out…



An interesting alternative 40k universe, though.
I was looking for an explanation of why 40k is the way it is, most ‘conventional’ (used in a very loose way) concepts of explaining it the downfall seem forced when applied to 40K. Cyber-brains (to use a Ghost in the shell term) seem high tech, easy and very G/DAoT. It’s also ironic that relying on such tech could lead to such a huge fall.

As for not having one, I suppose it’s like mobile phones, you don’t have to have one, but every one does. Once everything is optimised for Implants, not having Implants just excludes you from society. No one if forced, it more a case they rush out and get one as fast as they can, and the higher status adults get the best ones, move into the best jobs – money gets money.

Philip

Kage2020
05-09-2005, 20:20
The Ad-Mec do use Implants, the STC is G/DAoT and the fluff doesn’t rule it out…
Erm, yes. Of course the adeptus mechanicus - and indeed other groups in the Imperium - use "implant" technologies. And, yes, the technology would likely be available in the G/DAoT. That doesn't mean that STC is an 'implant', though. More so when the limited 'fluff' on the matter would suggest otherwise. Of course, that's just a matter of how hard you squint.


I was looking for an explanation of why 40k is the way it is...
I fail to see how "brain implants"-as-STC offers a more plausible explanation than hardware. How common implant technologies are in the 40k universe, or were back then, is not necessarily relevant...?

Again, interesting and very Johnny Mnemonic/Dune... But not something that I would personally go for or like to see as official in the 40k universe.

Kage

Inq. Veltane
05-09-2005, 20:38
Don't forget the one of the Noble Houses in Vervunhive (Necropolis) specialised in making servitors...

I think sometimes people are too eager to assign the AdMech authority and expertise. Advanced technology is theirs sure but making weapons and crude/average bionics isn't limited to them (think Necromunda) and so I see no reason why equivelant non-weapons technologies would be too. Stuff like huge plasma reactors and titan-grade weaponry along with the 'cutting edge' of other fields (the best alloys are kept secret etc) but it doesn't mean that every computer is made and repaired by the AdMech...

Philip S
05-09-2005, 20:40
Erm, yes. Of course the adeptus mechanicus - and indeed other groups in the Imperium - use "implant" technologies. And, yes, the technology would likely be available in the G/DAoT. That doesn't mean that STC is an 'implant', though. More so when the limited 'fluff' on the matter would suggest otherwise. Of course, that's just a matter of how hard you squint.
It never says it’s a machine, the closest it says it ‘computer program’ from RT, from then on it gets purposely hazy. A computer from an Ad-Mec point of view could be biological; morally they would make no distinction from running a program of a human (servitor) or machine (cogitator). With so much crossover technology, these probably don’t even think implants are non-human (as humans made them, an expression of there knowledge).


Again, interesting and very Johnny Mnemonic/Dune... But not something that I would personally go for or like to see as official in the 40k universe.
Johnny Mnemonic was just ‘dumb’ storage nothing like the implants I’m thinking of, the basic pre-implant technology would be more like Ghost in the Shell Cyber-Brains. They would allow full integration with D/GAoT technology, satellites, sensor and the very eye data of the Iron men themselves become theirs, the fingers craft with the factories the Iron Men build and fed with the arteries of rail networks; a human jacked in becomes ‘everything’, they are the invisible force that guides all (spirit ;)). That is the power of an STC Implant. Also on to aid this are thousand of lesser implants guiding specific areas and helping everything along.

(ok, may have gone too far :evilgrin: )

Philip

Philip S
05-09-2005, 20:44
Don't forget the one of the Noble Houses in Vervunhive (Necropolis) specialised in making servitors...

I think sometimes people are too eager to assign the AdMech authority and expertise. Advanced technology is theirs sure but making weapons and crude/average bionics isn't limited to them (think Necromunda) and so I see no reason why equivelant non-weapons technologies would be too. Stuff like huge plasma reactors and titan-grade weaponry along with the 'cutting edge' of other fields (the best alloys are kept secret etc) but it doesn't mean that every computer is made and repaired by the AdMech...
Technically Necromunda (game) is a different version of 40K, as I found out when quoting bits for my STC stuff.

In 40K Vervunhive must have links to the Ad-Mec in order to make servitors.

Philip

Inq. Veltane
05-09-2005, 20:48
I was talking about the world and what we know about how its economy functions rather than game mechanics, but the entire underhive does function without any AdMech help and I don't see the lower hivers as having less knowledge...

And if you read Necropolis you'll see that the noble houses are very independent. Maybe they were once taught by the AdMech but they certainly have the knowledge and ability to work and create independently now.

Kage2020
05-09-2005, 20:52
It never says it’s a machine, the closest it says it ‘computer program’ from RT, from then on it gets purposely hazy.
Fair enough.


A computer from an Ad-Mec point of view could be biological; morally they would make no distinction from running a program of a human (servitor) or machine (cogitator).
Again, nothing surprising there.


Johnny Mnemonic was just ‘dumb’ storage nothing like the implants I’m thinking of, the basic pre-implant technology would be more like Ghost in the Shell Cyber-Brains.
Ghost Comps as they are otherwise known. Again, nothing too surprising or original there (but what is, nowadays!?).

It comes down to preference, as always. I prefer my STC as software resident in an external computer. Why? Maintenance is a bit easier, for one, which is how I justify that belief. In your own version you can have brain implants, but either way it doesn't make a huge bit of difference.

Just don't try to make it official! :D ;)

Kage

Philip S
05-09-2005, 20:59
I was talking about the world and what we know about how its economy functions rather than game mechanics, but the entire underhive does function without any AdMech help and I don't see the lower hivers as having less knowledge...

And if you read Necropolis you'll see that the noble houses are very independent. Maybe they were once taught by the AdMech but they certainly have the knowledge and ability to work and create independently now.
A faction supported by the Ad-Mec?

I think much technology can redevelop in 10 thousand years, probably get as good as we have it now, even better, so certain technologies can be made, but others can’t or fall victim to the Ad-Mec too easily; For example, the internet would be an open book to the Ad-Mec, same with mobile phones so people up to no good aren’t going to use them once the Ad-Mec are about. Bionics could be at a low enough scale that they could have been made independently but once we get into mind-links I think that would be too advanced (certain parts could be supplied by the Ad-Mec, like the nerve connectors),. Perhaps independently made bionic parts are hard wired and dumb, so a human has adapt the mind and learn how to use it via practice?

Philip

Philip S
05-09-2005, 21:06
I prefer my STC as software resident in an external computer.
In GITS (:)) the earlier implants seem to be external, so maybe your version is an earlier part of D/GAoT tech?


Just don't try to make it official! :D ;)
Do worry I wont, I think GW takes pride in the fact the universe is purposely contradictory, then I came along and made it all logical without disturbing anything – as nothing is touched I guess they won’t have to change it – hence they wont have to use it!

But it's there, tying everything together.

Philip

Kage2020
05-09-2005, 21:11
This surely gets into the territory of 'technological diffusion' and the premise of "Adeptus Me-can-icus" and "Adeptus Me-can't-icus"? Again...

For me? Yes, the adeptus mechanicus supports certain factions of nobles over others, offering franchises, special consideration, etc. They are, after all, a political organisation as well as a 'cult'! ;)

And of course certain technologies are going to 'fall' to the adeptus mechanicus with ease. Indeed, practically every single technology is going to be less superior than something that they utilise. It kind of goes with the territory, but that also doesn't mean that you're not going to take advantage of technologies because of that.

And, generally, that would be how bionics work surely? Not given a mind of their own!?!?!?!?!

Edited reply to Phillip S' post...


In GITS () the earlier implants seem to be external, so maybe your version is an earlier part of D/GAoT tech?
You're like a darned pit bull, aren't you. I'm not going to be using 'ghost comps'-as-implants for STC systems. I just don't like the idea!


But it's there, tying everything together.
Again, you don't really need. IIABDFI...

Kage

Philip S
05-09-2005, 21:14
but that also doesn't mean that you're not going to take advantage of technologies because of that.
Too true, but I think the Ad-Mec would supply a counter product and sabotarge the competition – Mobiles can be replaced with short range Vox systems runnig on Ad-mec systems - common Ad-Mec distributed technology, and very cheap (even free. like mobiles, but pay for service).



Not given a mind of their own!?!?!?!?!
Like Doc Octopus in Spider Man 2?

Philip

Kage2020
06-09-2005, 13:44
Too true, but I think the Ad-Mec would supply a counter product and sabotarge the competition – Mobiles can be replaced with short range Vox systems runnig on Ad-mec systems - common Ad-Mec distributed technology, and very cheap (even free. like mobiles, but pay for service).
...But... mobiles are vox systems, just by another name and with less limitations. That's kind of the point. And why would the adeptus mechanicus need to replace them just to subvert them? They could already do that resulting from the fact that, by default, they're automatically dealing with less advanced technologies and that includes the knowledge to 'hack' them.

:confused:


Like Doc Octopus in Spider Man 2?
Oh dear, I hope not. Why in gods' names would you incorporate an MI - heck, even an AI - into cybernetics? There's no real reason for it other than 'it sounds cool' and, therefore, Rule of Cool. (Actually, I can think of some reasons but don't find them to be sufficiently justifiable to go with...)

Kage

Sai-Lauren
06-09-2005, 14:57
Too true, but I think the Ad-Mec would supply a counter product and sabotarge the competition – Mobiles can be replaced with short range Vox systems runnig on Ad-mec systems - common Ad-Mec distributed technology, and very cheap (even free. like mobiles, but pay for service).

Actually I would think the AM would grey out half the planet's atmosphere with static from jamming the signals, except for a very narrow band that they themselves use, then declare mobiles heretical, and turn those people who produced them into servitors.

But I subscribe to the Adeptus Me-we-would-really-like-to-but-we're-unable-to-Icus idea.

Veltane, be very careful using BL books in universe fluff, especially Dan Abnett's work. ;)


I'm not going to be using 'ghost comps'-as-implants for STC systems. I just don't like the idea!
I must agree with Kage here, let's say that only one person in a colonisation group is given this implant. If they lose the plug-in memory cards, then they're stuffed, if he falls down a cliff, is eaten by the local flora/fauna or dies of a heart attack, then they're stuffed, or if he goes insane and declares himself lord of the planet, they're stuffed. And when he eventually dies of old age, guess what? ;)
A dedicated hardware system - even if it's merely akin to a laptop with a massive hard drive storing loads of blueprints - is a much better alternative. Anyone can use it, the children can be taught to use it for when they're in charge of the colony, and parts can be replaced if they break down - presumably the STC would be clever enough to run diagnostics on itself occasionally and tell the user what's breaking down and how to make and fit the replacement parts.

Philip S
06-09-2005, 15:29
Oh dear, I hope not. Why in gods' names would you incorporate an MI - heck, even an AI - into cybernetics? There's no real reason for it other than 'it sounds cool' and, therefore, Rule of Cool. (Actually, I can think of some reasons but don't find them to be sufficiently justifiable to go with...)
Playing!

Relax,


Actually I would think the AM would grey out half the planet's atmosphere with static from jamming the signals, except for a very narrow band that they themselves use, then declare mobiles heretical, and turn those people who produced them into servitors.
Works for me,



I must agree with Kage here, let's say that only one person in a colonisation group is given this implant.
Not one implant, many implants for many people for differing jobs, plus backups in case of problems. The overall ‘director’ implants would be carried by several forming a high council who converse with the corporations. Backup supplies would cover many years (maybe even 50 or a 100 years), but the only place to get new stocks is the corporations (corporations are in for the long haul).

The great thing is you don’t need to teach a person how to use anything, they get the promotion go in for surgery under local aesthetic, have a kip, wake up in the morning and they feel no different. The walk into there new work place and they just know how everything works, like is natural to them. They leave work and don’t have to think about it or worry work because there is nothing for them to learn, nothing to worry about.

The one thing the corporations and the whole of humanity didn’t count of was warp storms that paralyse the D/GAoT civilization, even the stocks of a thousand years aren’t going to save a colony, they will run out.

The only place were things are different are ‘corporation space stations’ which manufacture the Implants (they are in space for ease of transit around the universe) but they are in deep space to shorten trips between worlds. They can make new stocks, but they can’t move them to a world because they are cut off by warp storms

Some worlds do maintain manufacturing facilities on a world (research), like Mars, and most of these become Ad-Mec heavens, the problem with these worlds is the emergent Psykers destroy so much, and on the corporation worlds such as these there are more Psyker emerging than anywhere else. Mars is lucky to survive, the corporations try and re-establish them selves but they are are shadow of their former selves.

The Ad-Mec are looking for the particular STC implant manufacturing facilities of the old corporations, they are in deep space, they are ‘ghosts ships’ and without anyone alive on them they are invisible to Psykers, it like searching for a needle in a hey stack and deep space is really really vast, it would take billions upon billions of years to do a systematic search. Then, if they ever did find one intact, they have to contend with D/GAoT security systems and that isn’t going to be easy (I also think the Eldar destroyed a few that did function due to far seers wanting humans to accelerate as Psykers and not rely on technology).

Well that my take,

Philip

Sai-Lauren
06-09-2005, 16:03
Not one implant, many implants for many people for differing jobs, plus backups in case of problems. The overall ‘director’ implants would be carried by several forming a high council who converse with the corporations. Backup supplies would cover many years (maybe even 50 or a 100 years), but the only place to get new stocks is the corporations (corporations are in for the long haul)....
Erm, STCs were designed to be taken by colonists so that they could build all the equipment they would need from local materials. And considering there's no FTL communications outside of astropaths, which are more recent than the great colonisation rush, I would doubt many of the colonies would have been in contact with their sponsoring corporations - more likely they'd have been checked on every so often, and otherwise left alone.
To me that kind of gestalt network is inherently unstable, and it's over-tech. Sure you can do it, but why would you want to, when there's simpler, cheaper and more effective solutions available?

Plus, that level of neuro-surgery is going to be a few generations off from initial colonisation, no matter whether they know how to do it or not, because the surgical facilities just won't be there to support it.

Philip S
06-09-2005, 16:17
I would doubt many of the colonies would have been in contact with their sponsoring corporations - more likely they'd have been checked on every so often, and otherwise left alone.
Taken into account with the Implant stock piles.


Plus, that level of neuro-surgery is going to be a few generations off from initial colonisation, no matter whether they know how to do it or not, because the surgical facilities just won't be there to support it.
In this setup, the Implant technology is ready to roll with the colonies. Only the very earliest non-warp colonies could claim to not have used the Implant technology, but they were loaded with the best and brightest of humanity.

Philip

Kage2020
06-09-2005, 18:01
Well, you're not going to convince me, Phillip. It's just not necessary and doesn't make more 'sense' when compared to what is understood of the original 'fluff'. As it stands we're just going around in circles, which you seem to take an inordinate amount of joy in (i.e. creating a consistent argument which is largely irrelvant but mostly interesting). Guess we all do that in a certain way.

/Kage

Philip S
06-09-2005, 18:09
Well, you're not going to convince me, Phillip.
You know, I didn’t think I would convince you ;)


It's just not necessary and doesn't make more 'sense' when compared to what is understood of the original 'fluff'.
I beg to differ.


As it stands we're just going around in circles
Circles? Looks straight forward to me…

Philip

Inquisitor Samos
06-09-2005, 18:50
Well, as entertaining as I've found the immediately preceding discussion, I have to say that my take on the original background material about the STCs agrees with Kage's: it indicates very strongly that they were some sort of device or mechanism.

"The heart of the STC system was an evolved computer program designed to provide construction details for the colonists. Its prime function was to enable the colonists to build efficient shelters, generators and transports without any prior knowledge and using almost any locally available materials. The user simply asked how to build a house or a tractor and the computer supplied all the necessary plans - in short it was idiot proof."

"The Age of Technology ended in inter-human war and anarchy. The STC systems that had helped to build it either lapsed into disuse or decayed so that they became increasingiy unreliable and quirky. On some worlds they were maintained, but most suffered damage by enthusiastic software specialists or subsequent jury-rigging."

These statements seem to me to imply a sophisticated hardware array, not a high-tech brain/mind implant, or set of implants.

I admit the situation's open to quite a bit of interpretation, and the precise nature of the STC system isn't explicitly stated. But it seems to me that if the STC system was a set of implants that depended on being integrated into a human, that fact would have been specifically mentioned. In fact, given the AdMech's predilections for seeing the biological as weak, I'd think it far more likely that biological components, if present at all, would be a far lesser part of the system than the reverse!

Philip S
06-09-2005, 19:32
Well, as entertaining as I've found the immediately preceding discussion, I have to say that my take on the original background material about the STCs agrees with Kage's: it indicates very strongly that they were some sort of device or mechanism.

"The heart of the STC system was an evolved computer program designed to provide construction details for the colonists. Its prime function was to enable the colonists to build efficient shelters, generators and transports without any prior knowledge and using almost any locally available materials. The user simply asked how to build a house or a tractor and the computer supplied all the necessary plans - in short it was idiot proof."

"The Age of Technology ended in inter-human war and anarchy. The STC systems that had helped to build it either lapsed into disuse or decayed so that they became increasingiy unreliable and quirky. On some worlds they were maintained, but most suffered damage by enthusiastic software specialists or subsequent jury-rigging."

These statements seem to me to imply a sophisticated hardware array, not a high-tech brain/mind implant, or set of implants.

I admit the situation's open to quite a bit of interpretation, and the precise nature of the STC system isn't explicitly stated. But it seems to me that if the STC system was a set of implants that depended on being integrated into a human, that fact would have been specifically mentioned.
Obviously GW wouldn’t mention it if they didn’t think of it. This is more a way to mastermind the whole universe with this just a peice of the puzzle.

Looking at the quotes supplied, and thankfully because of GW’s design team’s purposeful ambiguity, both could relate to implants. The first is easy to reinterpret, the second could show the decline and how humans tried to counter the diminishing stock of implants.

I think some humans would let it go and try to go it alone (‘lapsed into disuse’), some saved their stocks for as long as they could but the stock deteriorated (‘decayed’) and where quirky when used past their use by date (100 years+). Some tried to experiment and make their own implants (‘enthusiastic software specialists or subsequent jury-rigging’) but these where sub standard rip-off with huge holes and hardwire hack-in to support the dodgy implant, the implant being little more than an interface, the hardware only supported what was needed, and the world eventually moving away from this technology and going conventional.

All result in a world leavening the STC behind, and going conventional, all world would have to relearn science and set up schools and teach, gone of the days of easy knowledge.


In fact, given the AdMech's predilections for seeing the biological as weak, I'd think it far more likely that biological components, if present at all, would be a far lesser part of the system than the reverse!
They don’t see all biology as weak, just the body, the mind on the other hand they seem to think is pretty wonderful (given an implant of two). The Emperor was all powerful; his mind made him such along with his psyker powers, but his body failed him. The machine, the Golden Throne is there to support that mind, the Ad-Mec do not care about the body (if they could build a machine body that could handle the Emperors essence they would, but the Golden Throne is as small as it gets – perhaps a Titan :p)

Philip

Sai-Lauren
07-09-2005, 08:36
Taken into account with the Implant stock piles.


In this setup, the Implant technology is ready to roll with the colonies. Only the very earliest non-warp colonies could claim to not have used the Implant technology, but they were loaded with the best and brightest of humanity.

Philip
Sorry, but you've absolutely missed my points.
Firstly, the contact between corporation and colony.
You originally said

The overall ‘director’ implants would be carried by several forming a high council who converse with the corporations.
implying a regular two-way dialogue between these colonist leaders and their sponsoring corporation. The vaguaries of warp travel, the lack of FTL comms and everything else make this at best an unlikely occurance, and in all likeliehood impossible, a ship from the corporation will probably call in once every few years, determine what the colony needs to produce and leave again for the next system on it's route.
And that of course discounts any possibility of the other colonists rising up and overthrowing this elite. ;)

Secondly, as I said, this level of surgrey just will not be available. Having stockpiles of implants won't matter because you will not be able to implant them.

Do you have this vision of a fully fitted surgical ward being dropped onto the planet from orbit so they can be implanted? No corporation would do anything like that because the costs would be far too high - any colony is going to be as cheap as possible in order to maximise the corporations return, and such a construction would be outlandishly expensive, possibly even rendering most colonisation sites financially unviable. Hence STC, you ship this one device, some basic tools, enough supplies for the colonists to survive for a short while, and they build everything else they need when they get there.

And if you're going to say they build the ward with the implanted knowledge, I'd still say they're going to have much more important things to do for enough generations to render all those implanted dead and buried long before they get around to having time to build it.

As I said, you could do something like you envisage, but why would you want to?


Obviously GW wouldn’t mention it if they didn’t think of it
If they'd thought of it, they would have mentioned it, if only to show off. And considering all the other bio-ware around, I would have thought that if your vision was correct, they would have mentioned it somewhere, and at least some vestiges of it would have survived to today.

Anyway, I think this is the important point

The user simply asked how to build a house or a tractor and the computer supplied all the necessary plans
The user asked, and the computer supplied. Not someone asked, and the techno-savant responded.

Philip S
07-09-2005, 09:49
Hi Sai-Lauren,

The Director implants are for overall control of the world, via directing all the others with lesser implants.

I gave a stock pile of 50-100 years for worlds closer to the centre, going up to 1000 for the rim. Cooperation visits are uncommon, every 5-10 years, with the stocks covering all eventualities.

As for Implant the technology is just like an injection, the Implant does the rest. The only technical equipment needed is a brain scanner for placement, injector and activation chemicals. The Doctor has medical implant to enable them to preform the procedure.

When it come to cost, I don't see setting up a world are a cheap option, I don't see it equivalent of setting up a homestead in the wild west as it seem to be taken by most, I even think that the chance of finding a world that is the same as Earth as being zero, hence the C-Block system to standardise the colonist environment and control genetic drift.


Quote: “The user simply asked how to build a house or a tractor and the computer supplied all the necessary plans.”
The user asked, and the computer supplied. Not someone asked, and the techno-savant responded
As I said earlier this is a the weakest bit, but if the Implant responded voice commands, like when someone is thinking about a design they sometimes talk to themselves out loud (and no they aren't mad). They are asking rhetorical questions, but with an implant they become 'inspired'. The Implant which is a 'biological computer' has responded by inspiring the Implantee, it is supplying all the information.

This now matches the quote you gave.

If they jack into the system, the implant will supply all information to all machines needed to construct the object and by 'machines' I include the Iron Men for external superstructure work, internal C-Block is the humans work area.

As for set up, Corporations pop by to collect manufactured goods for the C-Block workshops mainly parts for new C-Block on other worlds (manufactured in the workshop with ore mine by the Iron Men) in exchange for Implants, supplies, Iron Men replacements, Iron Men weapons, defence systems and travel. The Corporations of the Golden Age are more like non profit co-ops and galactic government rolled into one.

Iron Men outside, Humans inside. Working together, humans enjoy their work, and I guess the Iron men enjoy theirs!


Philip

edit: PS: Colonists are employees of the Corporations, a C-Block is a place of work and living/ social space. The central railed corridors or streets are production lines.

Khaine's Messenger
08-09-2005, 04:50
I think that the Imperium would be a labour intensive world as opposed to capital intensive.

And even if this were so, there's no indication that the Imperium is averse to technology because it robs man of the "purity of toil" (although that might be the opinion of some Imperial scholars), thus the rather silly men jogging on rollers art from BFG sources.


AI is shunned/banned after the Age of Strife. Servitors perform simple functions, not complicated ones that require "thinking".

And how would this prevent them from being common? "Simple," non-thinking tasks are quite common, and indeed form the basis of what allows for "thought." This was one of the key points of, say, 1984, in which resources have to constantly be wasted in order to keep everyone in their place, and is the basis of a great number of stratified societies in the Eurasian tradition.


Technological knowledge is jealously guarded by the Admech.

Yes, the knowledge...this is what is sometimes referred to as "it works on pixie dust and farts" or, more politely, as the "black box." To have, own, and operate something does not require much knowledge except insofar as one can have, own, and operate it. While there's some marginal damage in those who become "inquisitive" about the internal nature of things, most people really won't be bothered because they are both self-interested and quite lazy (and if the AdMech has done it's job with the right handwaving, in utter fear for their soul).


Many Imperial industrialised worlds have huge populations.

This does not necessitate labor-intensive factories; it simply allows for them, because it means labor will be cheaply had and that an economy of scale cannot kick in quickly for anything that might have a higher initial expense because everyone looks to the short term. However, as soon as mechanization in addition to human labor is allowed to become cheaper and more cost-effective than human labor alone*, you'll end up with broad-scale mechanization, which may mean that some people lose their jobs and become dispossesed much as "computers" lost their jobs in the late 40's, hence compounding the poverty issues of the Imperium.

*How this could happen on Imperial worlds is, perhaps, a slight problem. I believe it occured here because of great risk of capital, and it probably still hasn't proven itself all that much (your asia/south america examples are perfectly reasonable), and by and large the main reason mechanization is popular is probably to save on costs of production in "first world nations" with all their minimum wages and employer responsibilities/liabilities that sent all the "cheap" labor to other countries in the first place. Arguably, most industries in the Imperium would not have these issues, but imho it's really only a matter of time before an Imperial world's economy could "split" as ours has now; it's not like China exploded to a global scale, because that just wouldn't work due to issues of population distribution, politics, and such, and I doubt every world will have absolute economic controls placed from the top-down that mandates everyone to have a job.


It is therefore safe to assume that many Imperial subjects live in poverty and could not afford expensive toys such as servitors.

Which would not prevent them from being common except in the sense that everyone has one or two servitors; that they are an unremarkable, "normal," feature on most Imperial worlds is what I believe most have driven at.


Overall I think that most Imperial socieities would be similar to the Gou'auld societies in Star Gate - the ruling class have access to high technology, while the lower classes live in almost a medieval state.

Perhaps on feral/feudal worlds, but I would definately not think this to be the case of most civilized worlds (which are supposedly similarly populated if not less so than modern Earth), which most people consider to make up the vast bulk of Imperial worlds.


Religious implications - most citizens would be highly superstitious and would struggle to deal with technology given that they are told it's bad by their religious leaders.

Indeed, which is why this knowledge is entrusted to the safe-keeping of a highly religious (or "highly trained") body, and you'd better do what they say to make the thing work right! After all, it is wrong for most Imperial citizens to lead, but you've got to trust that someone's doing it, and the chain of command is, as they say, infallible in its reasoning.... :)