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Noldo
05-10-2007, 05:43
If unit wins combat and the losing unit holds, the victorious unit may change its formation in order to bring more models to the fight. (Don't have the exact wording at hand right now)

Now, what if the unit in question is High Elven Lorthern Sea Guard, deployed for shooting (on thin line) and they are charged by "ordinary" unit. If through luck (and maby Speed of Asuryan) they win the battle, can they change their formation into ranked unit and is there limitations to such changes?

Diagram:

Dwarven Slayers charge High Elf Sea Guard

EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
SSSSS
SSSSS

Elfs kill 3, dwarves kill 1
CR:
Elves: 3 (wounds) + 1 (banner) + 1 (outnumber) = 5
Dwarfs: 1 (wounds) +1 (rank) = 2
=> Elves win but Dwarfs stay.

Can situation turn into this:


EEEEE
EEEEEEE
EEEEEEE
SSSSS
SS

With CR (before wounds):
Elves: 1 (banner) + 1 (outnumber) + 2 (ranks)
Dwarves: 0

Masque
05-10-2007, 05:56
The Free Manouvers listed on page 46 of the BRB only allow a winning unit to turn to face their enemy or to increase the number of models in the front rank. There is no option to decrease the number of models per rank and thus increase rank bonus.

Noldo
05-10-2007, 06:22
I though that it might only be the front rank, but was hoping for "increase the models in combat". Shame, would have made Sea Guard a bit better unit.

empireguard
05-10-2007, 06:59
Also You can only move up to five each turn so you would get.

EEEEE
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
SSSSS
SSSSS

Festus
05-10-2007, 07:54
Hi

I though that it might only be the front rank, but was hoping for "increase the models in combat". Shame, would have made Sea Guard a bit better unit.
This certainly makes sense - I will propose this as a house rule to my group.

Festus

Keller
05-10-2007, 21:16
Would work well for any shooting unit, really. Dwarven Crossbowmen, Kislev Kossars, DE Warriors w/ crossbows. Such units can really work in combat or at range. It would even help normal ranged units that don't normally fair so well in combat, though they would be lucky to win in the first place.

Hvidponi
06-10-2007, 21:25
We play with a "volley fire" rule for bows... making them possible to shoot in more than 1 ranks but with -1 to hit... only bows... and the ranks have to be 5 wide... hard to misuse, but make sea guards better...

T10
06-10-2007, 22:04
Interesting (as in: "That's crazy!") house rule. It begs the question: Why just bows? Certainly throwing axes and javelins are equally valid.

How about short bows? Are there many 5x4 Night Goblin units with short bows and 3xFanatics out there?

-T10

T10
06-10-2007, 22:12
Hi

This certainly makes sense - I will propose this as a house rule to my group.

Festus

When close combat is joined, it seems more believable that the unit increases in width as the winning warriors spils forward to overwhelm the enemy, and less so that unit calmly re-organizes itself.

While I agree that this is in accordance with the principle of having more models fight, it just doesn't seem right that you can use this with a unit armed with spears and not with a unit armed with hand weapons.

After all a unit of swordsmen arranged in a 10x1 line would nicely benefit from changing it's formation to 5x2, but that doesn't mean more models fighting. I am sure you see my point.

-T10

theunwantedbeing
06-10-2007, 22:20
Nope you cant do that.
Once your in a combat situation its far too difficult to organise yourselves into ranks and as such you cannot.
Although you are free to break ranks to allow more models to fight.

I dont see the problem with using sea guard in a long line and then reforming into a unit with several ranks.
I do this plenty with my repeater crossbowmen units and have no problems with having to spend a turn adding a rank to my men.
As you have bows you'll still get to fire after moving anyway, then you charge into combat or take the charge you were about to face.

Failing that use your superior high elf magic to cast some sort of movement spell on them to allow them to reform in the magic phase?

Festus
07-10-2007, 07:38
Failing that use your superior high elf magic to cast some sort of movement spell on them to allow them to reform in the magic phase?
This will not be possible as of the rules. BRB, p.32 tells us, that troops in combat may not move. The redressing of ranks and the free manoeuvres are explicit exceptions to this. There are no other.

Festus

BigRob
07-10-2007, 07:55
Why not reform the turn before? You get a couple of turns shooting, reform before the charge (still shooting, but with less models and a penalty for moving, then take the charge and fightback in 3 ranks with static CR.

On this subject does anyone know if the free shooting the SoC sea patrol list gets is one shot per model in the unit or 1 round of shooting as normal from the unit?
ie: 20 seaguard in 4 ranks, 5 wide, gets only 5 shots (the front rank) or 20 shots?
Can characters in the seaguard unit shoot as well (with the bow of the seafarer :p)

Cheers

T10
07-10-2007, 08:09
Why not reform the turn before? You get a couple of turns shooting, reform before the charge (still shooting, but with less models and a penalty for moving, then take the charge and fightback in 3 ranks with static CR.


Uhm - that's a bit like solving a problem by suggesting that it be avoided in the first place.

A: "I can't get the red on my Blood Angels right. Any tips?"

B: "You should have painted them as Ultra Marines instead. Blue is much easier!"

Wise words for the future, but it doesn't solve the problem at hand.

-T10

warlord hack'a
09-10-2007, 09:07
If people want they can suggest it as a house rule, but I think it's your own doing when you have your archers caught in this way. So I will just stick to the rules as they are written, which means: no reforming into more ranks..

Hvidponi
09-10-2007, 15:58
Interesting (as in: "That's crazy!") house rule. It begs the question: Why just bows? Certainly throwing axes and javelins are equally valid.

How about short bows? Are there many 5x4 Night Goblin units with short bows and 3xFanatics out there?

-T10

Well... any kind of bow... and surprisly enough, with an extra -1, night goblins still don't hit anything, and for that sake neither do they wound...

Which rank and file unit use javelins? The idear is that you fire bows "upward"... not directly forward, but mostly becuase the rank and file archers out there are just crappy, so it dosn't really hurt the balance, and makes something crappy like LSG more usable... Havn't seen the new HE book, so I don't know if they are still useless...

Edit: Any kind of bow is NOT a crossbow...