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Mag-El
05-10-2007, 11:43
I just read some fluff in the old CSM bok and it said that the IW Primarch was still alive, whilst I thought that they all were dead....so are there more of them alive?

//Magnus

Nargus
05-10-2007, 12:02
A lot of the Chaos Primarchs are now Daemon Princes (Fulgrim, Magnus the Red etc etc).

Of the loyallists, there is no proof or record of the death of Lion El'Johnson or Leman Russ, and the Ultrasmurf Primarch is suspended near the point of death, but technically alive.

Can't think of any more off the top of my head, but i'm at work and got no books to hand :P

Odin
05-10-2007, 12:24
Yeah, I believe Lion el'Jonson is "asleep" in the Rock. Though no-one but the Watchers knows about it (perhaps Cypher does?).

Lastie
05-10-2007, 12:28
Off the top of my head:

Loyalist:

Lion El'Johnson: Centre of the Rock, chilling out after his fight with Luthor
Roboute Guilliman: In stasis on Macragge
Rogal Dorn: MIA, presumed KIA
Vulkan: KIA
Corax: MIA
Leman Russ: MIA
Ferrus Manus: KIA
Sanguinius: KIA
Jaghatai Kahn: MIA


Traitor (or Alternative Loyalist, to be PC):

Horus: KIA
Purturabo: Daemon Prince
Angron: Daemon Prince
Magnus: Daemon Prince
Conrad Kurze: KIA
Lorgar: Daemon Prince
Fulgrim: Daemon Prince
Motarion: Daemon Prince
Alpharius: KIA (contested)

Amornar
05-10-2007, 12:30
Vulkan is MIA, other than that yeah Lastie summed it up nicely

Lastie
05-10-2007, 12:31
Vulkan is MIA, other than that yeah Lastie summed it up nicely

I'm fairly certain the new HH fluff postively kills him off. Which is a pity.

Mag-El
05-10-2007, 12:35
Ok, thanks alot

So loyalists have 2 confirmed alive, one sleeping(wtf) and one in a coma.

Whilst the traitors have at least 6 Daemon Princes

Even Steven I say....well not if all the MIA is alive, then it is almost even=)

//Magnus

Nargus
05-10-2007, 12:43
I think Peturabo is dead, i vaguely remember him being killed by Russ. I could easily be wrong on this one though.

And yes, The Lion is asleep in the Rock. Only the watchers and Emperor know he is there.

It also explains why Luther babbles insanely about the Lion being near all the time...

pookie
05-10-2007, 12:58
I think Peturabo is dead, i vaguely remember him being killed by Russ. I could easily be wrong on this one though.

he is alive and well ( as far as deamon princes go!) never heard that russ ever killed a Primach before.

Nargus
05-10-2007, 13:04
It might be Alpharius he is supposed to have killed, but its definitely one of them...

pookie
05-10-2007, 13:30
It might be Alpharius he is supposed to have killed, but its definitely one of them...

He Broke magnus's back and then was 'about' to kill him when magnus was wisked off by Tzeentch.

Askari
05-10-2007, 13:39
Ok, thanks alot

So loyalists have 2 confirmed alive, one sleeping(wtf) and one in a coma.

Whilst the traitors have at least 6 Daemon Princes

Even Steven I say....well not if all the MIA is alive, then it is almost even=)

//Magnus

I wouldn't call it "even"... seeing as the Traitors are Daemon Primarchs who cannot be killed :P

Perturabo rules over the Iron Warriors still on Medrenngard [sp?]
Conrad Kurze was "assassinated"
Magnus rules still in the Planet of Sorcerers
Angron was banished by the Grey Knights at Armageddon, though is due to return soon
Fulgrim lives as a multi-limbed Daemon on his Daemonworld
Mortarion, ditto
Lorgar, ditto again
Horus was annihilated by the Emperor as we all know
Alpharius may or may not be alive, the way the Alpha Legion works likes to keep it that way

Feor
05-10-2007, 13:55
Vulkan's not deffinetly dead. He vanished in a blinding blast on Istvaan V, but neither side found a body, so he could easily just be buried under a huge pile of debris somewhere.

Rockerfella
05-10-2007, 14:17
Conrad Kurze was "assassinated"


Was he though? All that you see on the recorder is his manic face. Then the thing cuts off. I think its fair to say that the Primarch would have flicked the assassin on the end of the nose and killed him/her outright if he'd wanted to.

We really, if we're gonna get nitpicky, don't know what happened to the Haunter. ;)

Cheers!

pookie
05-10-2007, 14:18
Vulkan's not deffinetly dead. He vanished in a blinding blast on Istvaan V, but neither side found a body, so he could easily just be buried under a huge pile of debris somewhere.

this is how id take it too, but im sure the HH books will change that sooenr or later.

Nargus
05-10-2007, 14:22
this is how id take it too, but im sure the HH books will change that sooenr or later.

Well they've changed pretty much everything else, why stop there? :P

Daemonslave
05-10-2007, 15:23
Was he though? All that you see on the recorder is his manic face. Then the thing cuts off. I think its fair to say that the Primarch would have flicked the assassin on the end of the nose and killed him/her outright if he'd wanted to.

We really, if we're gonna get nitpicky, don't know what happened to the Haunter. ;)

Cheers!

Someone hasn't read Lord of the Night!;)

Rockerfella
05-10-2007, 15:26
I've not read it no. But I have read several GOTO books, and trust me, any Eldar fan utterly discounts every last word that falls from that mans pen. Sometimes books aren't the holy grail and font of all knowledge in terms of what happened, right or wrong. :)

Chaos Undecided
05-10-2007, 15:35
Angrons return to the material realm might prove an interesting theme for a future campaign he seems to be the only Daemon Primarch not content to sit on his chosen Daemon World in the eye of terror and sulk/daydream. I'm sure he'll want to thank the Grey Knights for his extended vacation in the realm of chaos, probably wont be too happy about his legions collapse either. Very much doubt he'd be content to be bossed around by that jumped up little upstart Abaddon either.

Daemonslave
05-10-2007, 16:01
I've not read it no. But I have read several GOTO books, and trust me, any Eldar fan utterly discounts every last word that falls from that mans pen. Sometimes books aren't the holy grail and font of all knowledge in terms of what happened, right or wrong. :)

Lord of the Night by Simon Spurrier is one of BL's better offerings. I would recommend it!

As for books not being the holy grail, maybe not, but they are still canon and just as valid as any Codex, whether you like the book or not. Though saying that I tend to ignore all of Goto's work!

trigger
05-10-2007, 16:25
Jaghatai Kahn: MIA
[/LIST]




he is dead he acted as a rear guard for the remainder of his force to escape some orks
i think he had some terminator help though

Daemonslave
05-10-2007, 16:59
he is dead he acted as a rear guard for the remainder of his force to escape some orks
i think he had some terminator help though

I think you are thinking of the old 2nd ed. Space Wolf character, Ranulf.

The Khan disappeared 70 years after the Heresy chasing some Dark Eldar into a webway portal. Whether he still lives or not is unknown.

Macrus
05-10-2007, 18:12
In the HH books they dont say anything about Vulkan dying, they just say that they were unable to find him or his body, so therefore he is MIA.

Macrus

Progena
05-10-2007, 18:20
Was he though? All that you see on the recorder is his manic face. Then the thing cuts off. I think its fair to say that the Primarch would have flicked the assassin on the end of the nose and killed him/her outright if he'd wanted to.

Well, he did prophezise his own death at the hands of an assassin, and unlike the Thousand Sons who think it's funny to mess with fate, Kurze had a habit of making his prophezies come true.:rolleyes:

Mister V
05-10-2007, 19:52
About Jagathai Khan, where does that info come from?

(I secretly wonder why everyone hates Goto...but maybe it's not the place to discuss it here...)

SonofUltramar
05-10-2007, 20:17
Traitor (or Alternative Loyalist, to be PC):

LOL


About Jagathai Khan, where does that info come from?

(I secretly wonder why everyone hates Goto...but maybe it's not the place to discuss it here...)

In the White Scars Index Astartes it makes clear reference to Khan returing home to find his homeworld being ravaged by Dark Eldar Raiders so chases them into the Webway. Beyond that no one knows but lots of people like to think that he was taken to Commorragh?

Also no, please don't bring up Goto, i'd sooner gouge out my own eyes with a rusty spoon than read one of his books cover to cover

Askari
05-10-2007, 20:41
Was he though? All that you see on the recorder is his manic face. Then the thing cuts off. I think its fair to say that the Primarch would have flicked the assassin on the end of the nose and killed him/her outright if he'd wanted to.

We really, if we're gonna get nitpicky, don't know what happened to the Haunter. ;)

Cheers!

Hence why I put "" around the assassinated ;P

TheMartyr451
05-10-2007, 20:52
Angrons return to the material realm might prove an interesting theme for a future campaign he seems to be the only Daemon Primarch not content to sit on his chosen Daemon World in the eye of terror and sulk/daydream. I'm sure he'll want to thank the Grey Knights for his extended vacation in the realm of chaos, probably wont be too happy about his legions collapse either. Very much doubt he'd be content to be bossed around by that jumped up little upstart Abaddon either.

I'd really like this to be next summer's campaign, would be awesome. But has it been 100 years and a day or however long a daemon is banished for since the first war for Armageddon?

The Emperor's Faithfull
05-10-2007, 23:46
In the HH books they dont say anything about Vulkan dying, they just say that they were unable to find him or his body, so therefore he is MIA.

Macrus


Vulkan did disapper during the Drop Site Massacre but I'm pretty sure he popped up and opposed the Codex Astartes when it was introduced. They say about 1000 years after the Horus Heresy Vulkan disappeared and the Salamanders believe he will come back when needed to lead them.

Hive Mind 33
06-10-2007, 00:45
Konrad is about as dead as one can get. He let him self get killed to show the Emperor is just as ruthless in justice as he is.

Tanith Ghost
06-10-2007, 00:53
And we have a winner. What made Kurze so right was that he carried through with it. He allowed M'Shen to kill him. Leave the conspiracy bologna to Alpharius. The Night Haunter is dead.

Hive Mind 33
06-10-2007, 01:00
And we have a winner. What made Kurze so right was that he carried through with it. He allowed M'Shen to kill him. Leave the conspiracy bologna to Alpharius. The Night Haunter is dead.

What do i get

Tanith Ghost
06-10-2007, 02:22
A cookie. Now sit down.:p


I personaly think it cheapens the point Kurze made to the point of worthlessness if people try to say he just faked his death.

charlie_c67
06-10-2007, 11:36
Agreed, all the traitor primarch's are now daemon princes except Horus, Night Haunter and Alpharius. Horus died due to his oedipus complex, Night Haunter to prove a point and Alpharius when Gulliman had to break with the convention to bump him off. Again claims that he didn't die cheapen the point that he was making. So three out of the six ARE dead.

Of the Loyalists, Fulgrim bumped off Ferrus Manus, Sanguinus copped a packet at Terra and Dorn went stumps up at a black Crusade bikers meeting. Guilliman's currently sat on the toilet for all enternity in a stasis bubble (Elvis eat your heart out) and Russ, Khan and Corax went for a wander. The lion's hidden in the rock ready to break out again at some point and GW haven't actually revealed what happened to Vulkan, other than he escaped Istvaan and agreed with Guilliman on the splitting up of the Legions.

khorne666
06-10-2007, 12:20
I would like to point out that the new chaos codex states that only Angron, Magnus, Mortarion and Fulgrim are daemon princes. Well, the exact wording is "These are those primarchs who turned on the emporer and led their legions into damnation. Yet for all of the Imperium's hate leveled at them by the inquisition, the daemon primarchs Angron, Magnus, Mortarion and Fulgrim are content to wage wars against their enemies whithin the eye of terror.". I realise that this would be open to interpretation but I would have thought it translates to only them being daemon primarchs.


On a related topic, anybody mind telling me who the world eaters' primarch is/was?

Progena
06-10-2007, 12:25
I would like to point out that the new chaos codex states that only Angron, Magnus, Mortarion and Fulgrim are daemon princes. Well, the exact wording is "These are those primarchs who turned on the emporer and led their legions into damnation. Yet for all of the Imperium's hate leveled at them by the inquisition, the daemon primarchs Angron, Magnus, Mortarion and Fulgrim are content to wage wars against their enemies whithin the eye of terror.". I realise that this would be open to interpretation but I would have thought it translates to only them being daemon primarchs.


On a related topic, anybody mind telling me who the world eaters' primarch is/was?

Those are just the Daemon Princes connected to the four Gods. Lorgar and Perturabo are also Daemon Princes. And Angron is the Daemon Primarch of the World Eaters by the might of Khorne.


GW haven't actually revealed what happened to Vulkan, other than he escaped Istvaan and agreed with Guilliman on the splitting up of the Legions.

That was Corax, Vulkan supported Dorn (both escaped Isstavan).

Unclejo
06-10-2007, 13:06
I agree with all the "Night Haunter really did die" posts, because it kind of cheapens his point otherwise: the Emperor was just as bad as he was, and he was willing to die to prove the point. Plus he has the best quote in 40k to his name, and adding a "Ha ha, only kidding!" to the end doesn't improve it.

And I really really really hope that Alpharius is dead, because no-one can be a tactical genius all of the time, and he made a vital mistake, he under-estimated Guillman and paid the price.

That said, Im sure we will find out at some point that he and Night Haunter grew funky beards and went into hiding on some backwater world where they run Alpharius and Night Haunter (Presumed) Deceased. Solving mysteries, righting wrongs, and horribly torturing the local populace!

Sajuuk
06-10-2007, 19:21
In 007.M31 seven legions of space marines are sent against Horus on Istaavan V. Ferrus Manus died in last chance charge, Vulkano and Corax breakout from planet.

014.M31 Hours sieged Terra and Emperor's Palace. In fight on Warmaster's flagship Sanguinius is slain, soon after Horus too.

021.M31 Dark Angels and Lion el'Johnson came back to their homeworld. He got hit by Luther and mortally wounded. Now he is somewhere in statis kept by Watchers in the Dark.

some years after, when Raven Guard are reorganized and spilt into three successor chapters Corax imprison himself in highest tower of monastyr. Exactly a year after that he goes out, take lonely one ship taking a course to the Eye of Terro. His last words was 'never more... ' (exact date not known)

After Corax disappear Rogal Dorn was forced to hold chaos tide near Cadia. He sacrificed himself and his mates fighting on enemy battle ship Sword of Sacrilege. (like above)

aprox 075.M31 - seventy years after Horus Heresy Jagathai Khan disappear in webway chasing dark eldars (exact date is not know to me).

aprox 120.M31 Reboute Gulliman was mortally wounded and poisoned by Fulgrim on Thessela world. He is kept is statis. (again, would be fine to know date)

211.M31 Leman Russ takes his best soliders and go for big hunting at the border of the Eye of Terror. Years later his empty armour was found on Rudra world.

AND NOW...

400.M32 - last Primarch is dead.

But there is nothing said who is this and its a millennium after HH. There is nothing said about Vulkano's fate. I have nothing about heretic Primarchs slain.

This is based on 40k chronology, if I remember it correctly it is in WD #111. I have a *.doc with it, sadly only polish version.

Daemonslave
06-10-2007, 20:50
Conclusive evidence?

Lord of the Night spoiler;

The Haunterís head, so placid in its aspect, tumbles to the floor and rolls. There is no blood.
The killer stands thus poised, grisly mission complete, and perhaps she pauses to savour the moment. Perhaps she reflects upon the ease with which it was done.
Or perhaps there is more work to do.

As noted by the witness Zso Sahaal.

iron within, iron without
06-10-2007, 22:44
"Others say that Vulkan mysteriously disappeared a thousand years after the Heresy. The Salamanders believe that Vulkan will return and lead the chapter in a grand crusade to destroy the forces of Chaos once and for all" and "It can be noted that the Second Founding brought about the creation of no known secondary Chapters from the Salamanders Legion, as the strength of the legion after the Heresy was less than that of a standard Space Marine Chapter". thank the lord for wikipedia

TheMartyr451
07-10-2007, 00:06
"Others say that Vulkan mysteriously disappeared a thousand years after the Heresy. The Salamanders believe that Vulkan will return and lead the chapter in a grand crusade to destroy the forces of Chaos once and for all" and "It can be noted that the Second Founding brought about the creation of no known secondary Chapters from the Salamanders Legion, as the strength of the legion after the Heresy was less than that of a standard Space Marine Chapter". thank the lord for wikipedia

You should use Lexicanum, probably more reliable than wikipedia.

charlie_c67
07-10-2007, 00:40
I would like to point out that the new chaos codex states that only Angron, Magnus, Mortarion and Fulgrim are daemon princes.
On a related topic, anybody mind telling me who the world eaters' primarch is/was?

I'd be surpised if Lorgar wasn't a Daemon Prince considering he was first to be turned, and I believe the I:A article for the IW said that Perturabo became one after the Iron cage incident due to the amount of geneseed he had to offer. I also believe there is a question over Fulgrim's survival now due to the break up of the chapter. Or have I mixed that up with someone else?

Angron is head honcho of the world eaters.

Hive Mind 33
07-10-2007, 01:14
I'd be surpised if Lorgar wasn't a Daemon Prince considering he was first to be turned, and I believe the I:A article for the IW said that Perturabo became one after the Iron cage incident due to the amount of geneseed he had to offer. I also believe there is a question over Fulgrim's survival now due to the break up of the chapter. Or have I mixed that up with someone else?

Angron is head honcho of the world eaters.

Don't the Word Bearers believe they are better then daemons? SO by that it makes sense he is not one.

Tehkonrad
07-10-2007, 06:24
then what else is he?

Progena
07-10-2007, 12:13
Lorgar is a Daemon Primarch. He rules over the Deamon world of Sicarus in the Eye. Word Bearers think themselves better than Daemonic minions (though they willingly exploit the power of Daemons as possessed), they respect the Greater Daemons as avatars of the Gods. Daemonhood is the ultimate goal for a Word Bearer, Daemon Princes are after all some of the most powerful creatures in existance.

Witchfire
07-10-2007, 12:17
Dorn is dead, body recovered and skeletal hands inscribed with the heraldry of chapter masters

Unclejo
07-10-2007, 17:42
Dorn is dead, body recovered and skeletal hands inscribed with the heraldry of chapter masters

In the latest fluff they only retrieved his hands iirc.

Mechanicus
07-10-2007, 18:33
Nope - it says they recovered his remains. His hands were also mentioned as being put on display, but that doesn't mean the two are connected. :)

Unclejo
07-10-2007, 18:53
Nope - it says they recovered his remains. His hands were also mentioned as being put on display, but that doesn't mean the two are connected. :)

"His actual fate is unclear: the most recently published information states that the only remains of Rogal Dorn to be found was his hands and that they are the most prized relic of the chapter."

Thats from Wikipedia, granted, but it cites Index Astartes as a source. Ill go check mine.

*Edit* Interestlingly IA describes his remains as a hand (singular), which seems like a suspiciously non fatal appendage to lose...

Daemonslave
07-10-2007, 21:12
There was no Chaos attack on Cadia. The Imperial Navy arrived in force while the Traitors were still licking their wounds. Released by the sudden disappearance of Ulthwe, Phalanx and the Imperial Fists led the Imperial counter-strike. They caught the Chaos fleet in the midst of repairs and routed it decisively. Even without their Primarch, the Imperial Fists were able to get to the right place at the right time. They boarded the Sword of Sacrilege before it could flee and recovered what remained of Rogal Dorn. His engraved skeletal hand continues to be maintained in stasis, their holiest icon, and serves as a constant reminder of the commitment expected of a Space Marine.

Index Astartes


'...and recovered what remained of Rogal Dorn.'

He is dead, dead, dead.

His hand (which presumedly were among the remains) are what are kept in stasis, the rest might be considered demoralising (seeing his mashed up face, etc).

So he is dead.

Edit: Did I remember to mention that he is dead?:p

Londinium
07-10-2007, 22:31
Depends on the way you look upon the wording of the IA article...'and recovered what was left of Rogal Dorn, his engraved skeletal hand' could mean that the hand was what remained of him, I mean if they recovered the entire body, they'd likely display the whole thing, like the Smurfs do with Guilliman.

Higherlander
08-10-2007, 01:24
The only Imperial Loyalists that aren't MIA (read: are never coming back) is Sanguinius, Ferrus, Guilliman, and Lion. The last two are in a sword induced coma.
The only dead Alternative Loyalists are Horus and Night Haunter. Alpharius' death is incredibly shaky, since if Papa Smurf had really slain him, there'd be fluckin banners everwhere in Ultramar about it. Instead, the smurfs just say their prayers and eat their vitamins, like all good little Guillimaniacs, brother

charlie_c67
08-10-2007, 18:41
Point of contention about Guilliman being dead. Partly cos he was bunged in a stasis bubble before he popped his clogs and partly cos it's claimed his wounds are healing. And Alpharius is dead dead dead. The I:A makes it clear that he died to prove the point that his legion could function perfectly well without their leader and that the C:A was too rigid and had to be broken with to defeat him.

Ashnari Doomsong
08-10-2007, 18:53
Actually, he didn't have to let himself die for that; he could simply... disappear when the Alpha Legion needed him the most to prove that point. And he did, one way or another.

Daemonslave
08-10-2007, 18:55
Point of contention about Guilliman being dead. Partly cos he was bunged in a stasis bubble before he popped his clogs and partly cos it's claimed his wounds are healing. And Alpharius is dead dead dead. The I:A makes it clear that he died to prove the point that his legion could function perfectly well without their leader and that the C:A was too rigid and had to be broken with to defeat him.

Does it really? Let's take a look;


Shortly after the conclave, Inquisitor Girreux publicly accused Kravin of consorting with traitors and conspiring to organize cultist uprisings on the worlds of Kartha IV, V and Archos II in the Korren sub-sector. Girreux challenged Kravin to appear for trial and face the evidence against him, however Kravin's current whereabouts is unknown. Of course this development has called into question the reliability of all Inquisitor Kravin's research, and as he was the leading scholar on the Alpha Legion's history and current activities, much of what was known about them must now be considered a lie. If, as Girreux claims, Kravin has been compromised by the very traitors he sought to investigate, then everything he said must be considered misinformation and propaganda invented by the Alpha Legion.

Index Astartes. (Kravin compiled this history of the Alpha Legion)



The following account appears to be the personal log of a member of the Ultramarines strike force, probably a sergeant. It is included in Inquisitor Kravin's diatribe 'Lessons of Strife', though other Inquisitors and representatives of the Ultramarines themselves have questioned its validity. The original document was purportedly discovered in a system earth-ward of Eskrador.

...

Our great Lord and Primarch Roboute Guilliman himself strode forward, ignoring the melee around him, straight towards Alpharius. The two Primarch's stood before each other. They were equal in stature, both clad in shining power armour and each wielding a glittering power sword, but where one was noble the other was craven, where one was loyal the other was a betrayer. All other combat ceased as we watched them. There was a long pause, neither Primarch moving an inch, then both struck in an instant. Each sword made a single stroke and then both were till again. For a second, the two great men stood facing, before Alpharius slumped to the ground.

Also Index Astartes.

Hmmm. Sounds iffy to me.

charlie_c67
08-10-2007, 19:49
Yeah....still not sure what you're trying to say. Guilliman would know for definite if he was facing Alpharius or not due to the bond alluded to between the primarchs several times over. Like when Horus first found Alpharius, despite having never seen him, he knew he was the last primarch.

Daemonslave
08-10-2007, 20:27
Yeah....still not sure what you're trying to say. Guilliman would know for definite if he was facing Alpharius or not due to the bond alluded to between the primarchs several times over. Like when Horus first found Alpharius, despite having never seen him, he knew he was the last primarch.

Yes, Guilliman would probably recognise Alpharius (though maybe not if Legion is anything to go by). But saying that, it is not Guilliman who reports this incident, but a sergeant, and now the Ultramarines dispute it's validity.

Maybe no such encounter occurred and that it was a fake account made up after Roboute was put in stasis. Nobody would be able to 100% discount it.

Mechanicus
08-10-2007, 20:54
Depends on the way you look upon the wording of the IA article...'and recovered what was left of Rogal Dorn, his engraved skeletal hand' could mean that the hand was what remained of him, I mean if they recovered the entire body, they'd likely display the whole thing, like the Smurfs do with Guilliman.It doesn't say his body isn't - it does say that a specially engraved hand (I vaguely remember something about Chapter Masters engraving their names onto his hand - am I misremembering?) is their holiest icon and is kept in stasis.

To add to Daemonslave's points about the validity of these accoutns - I would raise the question about whether Kravin was a traitor, or whether Girreux is. One is potentially releasing propaganda and the other is discrediting potentially valuable information on the Alpha Legion, of which there is very little. Or perhaps both were - with the Alpha Legion, who knows? ;)

To another point - where does it claim that Alpharius is dead besides that account? Admittedly there were several claims of the Alpha Legion being destroyed, and I can't imagine them declaring them a non-threat when the Primarch was not found there. But I think I'll wait for Legion to decide on the question of how distinctive Alpharius was...

GreenDracoBob
08-10-2007, 21:14
Alpharius is alive as Marneus Calgar, every prior UM chapter master and also Elvis. At least, that's the latest rumor being spread throughout the Imperium by anonymous figures.

Seriously, after reading the account given by the Marine Sergeant, it wasn't even a definite kill. It wasn't a beheading (but those seem to be survivable in 40k, too), it was a "They slashed, he fell over." So it doesn't even matter whose lying, if the sergeant's account is accurate, it is not conclusive.

For Dorn, it also a lack of body. We have his hand, but where's the part that actually allows one to live? Is it even Dorn's hand?

Guilliman and El'Jonson are both in the "They are alive, but will they come back from a coma in time?" Maybe the SMurfs should check on Roboute once in a while.

Londinium
08-10-2007, 22:28
Considering Pilgrims come from all over the Imperium to visit Guilliman, I'd say he was checked rather often :P I don't really like the fact he's on public display a la Lenin and Stalin although, Primarches are meant to be mythical beings to the people of the Imperium, in the way that Beowulf, Achilles, Hercules and co are to us.

It kinda ruins it that they can just hop over to the Eastern Fringe and see one in the flesh, I wouldn't mind if his resting place was actively visited by marines and was somewhere within their main fortress monastery but for open viewing by the plebs of the Imperium? pfft

Btw when I read that Marneus Calgar theory when it first popped up on here, I'd never laughed so hard, it's really the most ridiculous idea anyone on Warseer has devised.

GreenDracoBob
08-10-2007, 23:05
Unfortunately, I didn't devise it, but I did post in the thread that spawned it.

And what I meant by "check," was to take him out of stasis. I realize that would never happen, and if it did, it would probably kill him more than reap good information.

charlie_c67
08-10-2007, 23:05
Legion won't give the answers you seek as it's pre/during the HH and alpharius' slaying was post HH. Also is he hadn't been killed properly, do you not think Guilliman might have made comment? "Quick brothers! He has done the dastardly deed of falling over! He is not really dead but merely rolling over to have his tummy scratched. We shall re-name him Rover..." ;)

GreenDracoBob
08-10-2007, 23:21
If there's any more to that account I'd like to see it. But as it stands I don't see the body, just a guy falling down. Besides, I would think Alpharius would fake his death more than just by playing dead. By that account, he falls over (supposedly beaten by Guilliman), which then could have been followed by the UMs checking the body, finding it dead, though really Alpharius is drugged to appear dead. You never know with Alpharius.

Invader Nails
09-10-2007, 00:49
You never know with Alpharius.

You'd have to use standard anti-comic book character procedure to kill him: cut off his head and all of his limbs, empty seventeen bolters into all of it but the head, burn all of it but the head, then shoot all of it but the head into a star. Then you'd take the head, get it genetically tested to make sure it really WAS Alpharius, then shove three silver stakes through it (so as to prevent resurrection) and keep it on display in a formaldahyde jar so that you can always "produce the body," in a manner of speaking. Oh, and also plant a remote explosive in the head, so that if it ever gets stolen you can detonate it to prevent resurrection.

Of course, then it would probably turn out to be a clone...

charlie_c67
09-10-2007, 23:49
which then could have been followed by the UMs checking the body, finding it dead, though really Alpharius is drugged to appear dead. You never know with Alpharius.

Somehow I think the UM's woulda made daaaaaaaaaaaaaaamn sure he was dead. Remember, he was one of the original traitors and knocking another one out of the running is always good news.

GreenDracoBob
10-10-2007, 00:19
Somehow I think the UM's woulda made daaaaaaaaaaaaaaamn sure he was dead. Remember, he was one of the original traitors and knocking another one out of the running is always good news.

Well they probably would if they had the ability. But if Alpharius falls over and then the UMs are beaten back long enough, they could return to the place sans body.

Or maybe, Alpharius switched bodies with Guilliman, later meets up with Fulgrim (disguising him as Guilliman and nearly killing him), and replaces the next leader of the UMs. Yeah, it makes sense. Alpharius is gonna pop up leading UMs in the final battle with Fulgrim, messing with everyone's minds. They'll be so confused, the Emperor won't know which way is up.

(BTW, Alpharius conspiracy theories are so much fun to make).

Higherlander
11-10-2007, 23:28
I love a good Alph conspiracy.

So, Alph replaces Guilliman, replaces several UM's with AL's, and then fabricates the whole battle. Who knows what could have really happened.

Leaving the whole "Guilliman/Alph being in stasis because of Fulgrim" scenario alone, another idea occured to me.
If the Ultramarines are responsible for 3/5 of the geneseed in the Imperium, and they've been infiltrated by the AL, do you think that 100% of the geneseed makes it to its destination? Of course, a cargo that valuable would have to be escorted by a marine, but who knows where that marine's loyalty may reside.
"Helmsman, make a left over here."
"But sir, that's not on our course!"
*Bolter racking sound*
"Yes sir, making a left."

GreenDracoBob
12-10-2007, 00:07
Good idea, I'll have to add that to my list of "Things Alpharius Has Done." I think I might just have to start a thread about how he's done everything. Not Chaos, not C'tan, Alpharius.

Unfortunately, there's nothing else I can add to this one.

Imperialis_Dominatus
12-10-2007, 02:44
ot, but they are still canon and just as valid as any Codex, whether you like the book or not

Whatever canon means... you've seen the thread on it, right? :rolleyes:

MadDoc
12-10-2007, 10:54
Whatever canon means... you've seen the thread on it, right? :rolleyes:

You mean the thread which had the OP's point summarily shredded using the very evidence they'd thought to slip-in to prove their point? That thread? :angel: