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View Full Version : Strange Wording: Daemons, Challenges, and "What is a Monster ?"



Fulgrim's-Chosen
06-10-2007, 22:14
Just checking something here.... Daemon Princes / Exalted Daemons / and Greater Daemons are all Characters, ie - Lords and or Heroes, correct ?

As such...each should be able to handle Challenges in the course of a battle, right ?


The only reason I am asking this is because on page 77 of the Big Red Warhammer Main Rulebook...it has a small paragraph stating "Note that a challenge cannot be issued unless there is a character to fight - ordinary troopers or monsters cannot take up a challenge."


It's very strange though because reading the Monsters section on page 58-61 of the same Rulebook, you get the impression that Monsters are not solely things that can be ridden like Dragons, Griffons, War Hydras, etc. (which they mention specifically), but also "Monstrous" types of models - ie - those on a 50-mm base, etc. - like Giants, Greater Daemons, and Slaan.

In fact, they actually slow a Slaan Mage-Priest in a diagram on page 59, and refer to it as "The Monster declares a charge against the Archers. - etc."

The strange part is if you look at the wording on page 58, it says "The Monster model always fights individually; they can never join other models to form a unit, except when they are ridden by a character."


This would SEEM to suggest that Great Unclean Ones cannot join a unit of Plaguebearers or that Daemon Princes could not join a unit of Daemonettes, etc. - it would ALSO (strangely enough) seem to suggest that a Slaan Mage-Priest, which as noted above is referred to as a Monster in the diagram on page-59, could not join up with a unit of Temple-Guard Lizardmen, despite the fact that one is shown as part of said unit on page 196 of the book, in the army-pictures section !


What exactly is the correct ruling/way to play it with these things and ultimately, can G.Daemons, D-Princes, Exalted Daemons, and (in the case of a Daemonic Legion Army) Daemonic Heralds, all accept or issue challenges ?

(and which of those above-mentioned models are considered to be a "Monster" and thus gain the benefit of the Monster movement rules, etc. explained on pages 58-61 of the book ?)

Featherbolt
06-10-2007, 22:38
"...ordinary troopers or monsters cannot take up a challenge."
"Ordinary" applies to monsters as well. An ordinary monster (taken as a rare choice or a mount) can't take up a challenge, special (read: taken as a hero/lord choice) monsters can.

Jonke
06-10-2007, 23:36
This is one of the major grey-areas in the brb. But models of this type follows the rules for characters and the rules for monsters where applicable (movement for example). They can join units and issue and accept challenges.

Peace!

Palatine Katinka
07-10-2007, 00:31
For reference: Daemonic Heralds aren't monsters, they go on 25mm bases and thus 'move as skirmishers'.

Festus
07-10-2007, 07:31
Hi

Yes, they can issue and accept challenges, as they are clearly characters.

If they are Monsters depends on your interpretation of the listing of unit types on p.7 of the BRB: If they are mutually exclusive, they cannot be both. If they are cumulative, they very well can be both, and share rules.

I am strongly in favour of the latter: A GD is a character AND a monster. And a Chaos Champ on a Chaos Steed is a character AND cavalry.

Festus

logan054
07-10-2007, 12:18
daemon princes also arnt monsters, they are characters, its just that all characters with unit strength 2 or more move as monster. Models on a 25mm base do not move as skirmishers, skirmishers move as single models :P

ZomboCom
07-10-2007, 13:12
Note that the 7th edition errata, and later printings of the BRB say that large characters such as daemon princes "follow some of the rules for monsters", rather than "follow the rules for monsters".

They are monsters for some purposes (movement), and characters for everything else.

Falkman
07-10-2007, 13:25
They are monsters for some purposes (movement), and characters for everything else.
Except that you do not know that movement is the only thing they would count as monsters for, since nowhere is it stated just which rules for monsters they follow...

Atrahasis
07-10-2007, 13:32
The rules tell us what is true, not what isn't. The only Monster rules that say characters follow them are the movement rules, and so those are the only monster rules they follow.

DeathlessDraich
07-10-2007, 15:10
"Note that a challenge cannot be issued unless there is a character to fight - ordinary troopers or monsters cannot take up a challenge."


And therefore characters cannot be Monsters. i.e. Greater Daemons are not Monsters.** (This will make Festus squirm with unease. :p)
However, Monstrous mounts like other mounts will be part of a challenge



In fact, they actually slow a Slaan Mage-Priest in a diagram on page 59, and refer to it as "The Monster declares a charge against the Archers. - etc."


An oversight. I believe Alessio is dealing with this anomaly.


The strange part is if you look at the wording on page 58, it says "The Monster model always fights individually; they can never join other models to form a unit, except when they are ridden by a character."


One of the 2 requirements for being a Monster, making the whole 'definition' of a Monster hardly monstrous!



This would SEEM to suggest that Great Unclean Ones cannot join a unit of Plaguebearers or that Daemon Princes could not join a unit of Daemonettes,


They can because they are characters.
**The rules do not explicitly state that they are Monsters but to choose otherwise would create a rules conflict as you spotted in the challenge rules.

Fulgrim's-Chosen
07-10-2007, 15:39
Definitely an interesting debate ... to the poster who mentioned it, yes I knew that a D-Herald was not considered a "monster" for purposes of this discussion, but I mentioned him in the same breath as Exalted and Daemon Princes and G-Daemons because he is a Daemonic Character (Hero-level) - and I was talking about the various D-Legion "non normal trooper"-type models and wondering what their status was for Challenges, etc.

I am curious about the one statement made here that anything with a Unit Strength of 2 or more should be considered to move like a Monster does.... ??? ...:eyebrows:

If that were the case, then anything with Multi-Wounds (3) - like a Chaos Lord on foot would be expectedto move like a Monster does in the Monster section of the Big Red Book...which I don't think they do ?

Jonke
07-10-2007, 15:54
A chaos lord does not have unit strength 3, he's a single model on foot=unit strength 1. It is only for monsteer unit strength is=starting wounds. Check the unit strength chart on p. 71.

And yes anything with unit strength 3 and up moves like a monster. Note all these models are mounted on 40 or 50 mm bases. Models on 20/25 mm bases moves like single characters.

Except unit flyers, they are us 1 or 2 if flying cavalry and are mounted on 40 mm bases but moves like skirmishers.

Peace!

Fulgrim's-Chosen
07-10-2007, 16:20
Right...that's what I thought ... mostly it seems to be base-size-dependent (IE - as you noted, higher than 25-mm usually turns you into a higher-than-US-1 model).


Interestingly enough...I would think that means that Archaon, when riding the Steed of the Apocalypse, IS a rank-breaking model...but when he's "Archaon on Foot" - the special Games Day release (which I was able to get hehehe) ... he turns back into a simple US-1 character/model ?

Festus
07-10-2007, 17:04
Hi

Archaon on foot is US1, mounted, he is US4 (1 for him and 3 for his mount).

Festus

Fulgrim's-Chosen
07-10-2007, 19:26
Thanks Festus - "you da' rules-guru bomb" ! :cool:


- one more thing - a friend of mine was suggesting, recently, that you could add a Daemonic Herald (2-wound hero-level Daemon character) to a Slaaneshi Chariot (normally Unit-Strength 4 model), displacing one of the two Daemonette crew, and the Chariot model would go up to Unit Strength 5, and thus be able to "Break Ranks".

Is this valid ? His point/suggestion was that taking 1 Daemon Prince or Greater Daemon as your Lord+Hero/General, still left you with the 2-Hero Slots (2000-pt standard game) to take 2-Daemonic Heralds....one would be on foot with the Greater Icon of Chaos / Army Battle Standard, but it would be wise to put the other in a Chariot to use it on one of the Legion flanks, working it's way around the enemy formations with its amazing 10-inch move/20-inch charge range to slam enemy flanks and break their ranks.

But all of that grand strategizing is based on the idea that the Slaaneshi chariot "becomes" a higher US, when the Herald is added. . . so, thoughts ?

Festus
07-10-2007, 19:39
Hi

Yes, this is valid. This is even valid with most other races' chariots: A chariot usually has US4 - regardless of crew, if you mount a character in it, the US goes up by 1, so US 5 in total.

Character-ridden chariots are rankbreakers usually.

BRB, p.71

Festus

PS - thanks for the flowers :)

Palatine Katinka
07-10-2007, 19:58
daemon princes also arnt monsters, they are characters, its just that all characters with unit strength 2 or more move as monster. Models on a 25mm base do not move as skirmishers, skirmishers move as single models :P

Curiously, the character rules say they move in the same manner as Skirmishers while the Skirmisher rules say they move as Characters. I was originally going by the 'Single models' reference sheet that is only in the BRB, not the BFSP book. This page doesn't just apply to Characters though, it also applies to the sole survivor of any infantry unit.

I believe that it is possible to be both a Monster and a Character. Just a belief, can't back it up, but other wise Treeman Ancients and Shaggoth Champions could get messy. Some spells might affect Shaggoths but not Shaggoth Champion and vice versa.

Atrahasis
07-10-2007, 21:46
Some spells might affect Shaggoths but not Shaggoth Champion and vice versa.Gav has said (unofficially) that that is how it is supposed to work.

Jonke
07-10-2007, 21:57
I wonder why they haven't done in fantasy as in 40k where it states in each units entry what type it is...

logan054
07-10-2007, 22:25
Curiously, the character rules say they move in the same manner as Skirmishers while the Skirmisher rules say they move as Characters. I was originally going by the 'Single models' reference sheet that is only in the BRB, not the BFSP book. This page doesn't just apply to Characters though, it also applies to the sole survivor of any infantry unit.

never actually noticed that before, you have to love GW writing style when it comes to rules, its worse than ******** yellow pages!


I believe that it is possible to be both a Monster and a Character. Just a belief, can't back it up, but other wise Treeman Ancients and Shaggoth Champions could get messy. Some spells might affect Shaggoths but not Shaggoth Champion and vice versa.

Well as i said, i far as i see you are one or the other, makes sense, it would be nice if the rules appeared far more clearly!