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vampking111
07-10-2007, 19:14
I have a plan for my new Imperial Guard army, which is going to be from a world which was technologically at the level of World War 2. So bolt action rifles are the norm. The fluff, which isnít finished, goes that they did indeed embrace the imperial creed, but wouldnít update there technology. Seeing as they had made do with it for the past millennia, why should they change it? They then proved through many trails against guardsman that there weapons were level with the humble lasgun, apart from its hitting power.

As such the Adeptus Mechanicus crafted lasguns which on the exterior looked like a bolt action rifle, but were in fact powered by a dynamo in the bolt. So each cock of the bolt made a charge for a shot.

Do you my fellow warseers see this as possible, any input is welcome, and Iím also writing the bolt-las up with rules for use in Inquisitor So any one interested in help me play test PM me and Iíll get you the rules when there typed up, which is work in progress at the moment.

Kegluneq
07-10-2007, 19:20
Sounds vaguely like a laslock, so I don't see why anyone would have a problem with it.

Although there is absolutely no way the bolt action could be as effective as a lasgun, to be honest. If anything, it's the hitting power alone that should be superior, since it would fire quite a powerful single round.

Edit: I assume you meant at the end of World War 1, since we had post-bolt-action rifles by the end of the second one.

Vaulkhar
07-10-2007, 19:30
Edited for slow typing. Kegluneq is correct.

Noserenda
07-10-2007, 19:31
Yep, sounds like Las Locks alright, not well described but basically single shot lasguns used by chaos occupation forces of Gereon.

For Inquisitor its basically a Lasgun with shots 1...

And yeah, bolt action rifles v lasguns... Its going to be a massacre for the Lasgun in every field imho.

Vaulkhar
07-10-2007, 19:53
except, possibly, hitting power past 200 yards...but the lasgun wins hands down in every other category (bolt action weapons don't exactly come with rechargeable bullets).

vampking111
07-10-2007, 20:00
The fluff isnt entirly ironed out yet. But what do people think of the overall idea, of a bolt action dynamo powered lasgun?

carl
07-10-2007, 20:03
Actually if you look at Inquisitior most of the bulet weapons in their equal or exceed the Lasguun in power. A mars pattern lasgun is NOT automatic eithier, it's semi-auto. The basic lsgun really isn't any better than a bolt action rifle oporated by a well trained individual. The fire rate might be a bit slower, but the extra punch per round would equal it out.

Progena
07-10-2007, 20:04
Well, if they don't understand how to use Las tecnology, you could model them with Autoguns and Autopistols (same profiles as the respective Las weps). Automatic and half automatic weaponry was available to WW2 era soldiers. Autoguns with rifle-grips (which would make them voulnerable to recoil) and limited magazines look much like your average bolt action rifle (without the bolt loading mechanism). The Death Korps of Krieg models from Forge World use something that looks like WW2 rifles (while still being lasguns).

Kegluneq
07-10-2007, 20:05
I'm not overly keen, to be honest - I don't think you could get that much energy just from pulling back on a spring. Throw in some Handwavium to actually create the charge on compression and you should be ok though.

I'm still not terribly sure what the point is though, since a regular lasgun will fire off 60 or so shots of comparable power with only pulls of the trigger. :/ If it's a force relatively isolated from Ad Mech supply lines then it may make sense, since there's be no removable/replaceable parts even involved...

Vaulkhar
07-10-2007, 20:06
Needlessly complicated imo. Having fired a bolt-action, I can tell you that the idea of 'hey guys, you don't get to risk RSI with the bolt, just wait for the light to turn green' would be fairly popular :)

Plus the Munitorum wouldn't be too hot on the idea - better to get the regiment onto laslocks or lasrifles so you don't have to keep shipping new weapons from the same forge world every time.

MrBigMr
07-10-2007, 20:08
In 40K, you can have troops with clubs and muskets and they'd still kick ass as good as any Guard regiment. I had the idea of using Empire Handgunner rifles with lasgun muzzles in a highly stylish Terran regiment.

vampking111
07-10-2007, 20:18
Plus the Munitorum wouldn't be too hot on the idea - better to get the regiment onto laslocks or lasrifles so you don't have to keep shipping new weapons from the same forge world every time.

They are lasguns, just not full/semi auto. There bolt action where the bolt and breech form a dynamo which powers the shot.

Vaulkhar
07-10-2007, 20:21
And that's precisely the feature that would make resupplying the regiment a pain - the munitorum does not like non-standard kit.

vampking111
07-10-2007, 20:26
And that's precisely the feature that would make resupplying the regiment a pain - the munitorum does not like non-standard kit.

There are many patterns of lasgun in the fluff of 40k so why not a dynamo bolt action?
There are carbines, longlas's etc. So why not a bolt action.

Plus the guard use lasguns to prevent dispersal problems, the powercells are consistant to any forge world, bar size of clips (guns of tanith refrence) And can be recharged by solar converter, or being placed in a fire for feth sake. So why not a dynamo which shouldn't really need replacing to often

carl
07-10-2007, 20:33
So why not a dynamo which shouldn't really need replacing to often

Because no human (or even probably an ogryn), could put enough energy into the weapon in one pull to make it work.

You've got to understand a lasgun bolt is probably in the several 10's of kilojoules energy range. A trained Discus or Javelin thrower can't get even 10Kilojuoles into their throws, so a simple bolt action would never get the required amount in.

Plus like i've trie to say once allready. The origionol Bolt action rifles they had would have had vastly MORE STOPPING POWER than any Lasgun outside of the Hellgun variant, (maybe).

MrBigMr
07-10-2007, 21:00
I once designed a lever/bolt action plasma rifle for a universe of mine. Basicly the 1.5m long rifle is loaded with capsules. These capsules are filled with hydrogen and also work as the plasma bottle for the formation of the bolt. When fired, a laser beam passes through the capsule, heats up the hydrogen into plasma and drills a tunnel into air for the plasma bolt to pass through it.

After each shot the capsule is ejected. This vents out heat with the bottle and the gun doesn't need that good quality and durable plasma bottle, as the capsules just have to work for one shot.


Plus like i've trie to say once allready. The origionol Bolt action rifles they had would have had vastly MORE STOPPING POWER than any Lasgun outside of the Hellgun variant, (maybe).
Right. A normal WW2 bolt rifle had a good average range of 2000m, while a normal person could only hit targets at 600m max. Modern rifles are far far weaker from those days. I also remember reading that in WW1 infantry rifles could penetrate tanks as their armor wasn't that strong.

carl
07-10-2007, 21:06
Right. A normal WW2 bolt rifle had a good average range of 2000m, while a normal person could only hit targets at 600m max. Modern rifles are far far weaker from those days.

Yep, most WW2 bolt action rifles used a round nearly identical to that used in modern medium machine guns. Those things will pretty much gut you through hydrostatic shock in a 1 round hit.

But my point is that the fluff centric ][ stats say even modern assuallt rifle style weapons pack more power per round than a shot from a mars patter lasgun and have around 12 times the rate of Fire.

Savant
07-10-2007, 21:15
Lasguns have the same strength fired as they do if you hit someone in close combat with them. I think you'll be fine with a bolt-action version, rulewise. ;D

Noserenda
07-10-2007, 21:29
Gah, basing anything off the gun stats in Inquisitor is highly suspect, as many of the weapons have utterly retarded statlines that bear little resemblance to 40k, the Main Culprits being Plasma and gauss weaponry ofc but as a source it lacks credibility.

Which is a shame frankly.

But the bolt action Lasgun is a fine idea and certainly very 40k.

Progena
07-10-2007, 21:57
So why not a dynamo which shouldn't really need replacing to often

Because if that was possible then it would be standard for all Lasguns.

"Ok, so you're in the middle of no-mans land and you just emptied your last powercell. No problem! Just yank this lever a couple of hundred times and you'll have recharged your cell. Courtesy of the Adeptus Mechanicus."

I like the basic idea, but I have to agree with the other here that stadarisation is sacred to the Munitorum.

ThorOdensson
07-10-2007, 23:17
The 'bolt' action could be designed to release energy from the clip into the prefire chamber, there by using standard clips.

Argastes
08-10-2007, 00:39
As has been pointed out, a single cycle of any generator driven by human muscle could never provide enough energy to power a laser capable of killing a human being; if it could generate that much energy in one cycle, it would be far, far to stiff for a person to drive just by pulling back on it. Also, a linear generator would be much less efficient than a normal generator, which is rotary, so that would only compound the problem. So, in terms of real physics, no it would never work. However, 'real physics' is not a high-priority concern in 40K. Lots of elements of the 40K universe are much more implausible, in terms of real-life physics, than just a hand-powered generator in a lasgun. After all, at least you're just taking an idea that is fundamentally quite realistic--a laser powered by a generator driven by mechanical force--and unrealistically changing one element of it (making it work with less mechanical force than would actually be required), rather than dreaming up something totally fantastic such as warp drives or wraithbone or whatever. Anyway, the whole concept of the lasgun as a weapon is, realistically, riddled with impossibilities; in fact, basically all laser weapons in 40K are, so no-one can really criticize you too much for introducing one more implausible factor to a weapon already so unrealistic. So, I say go for it. It might not work in real life but it's quite down-to-Earth by 40K standards, and I personally think it's a rather cool idea.

legio mortis
08-10-2007, 01:15
The origionol Bolt action rifles they had would have had vastly MORE STOPPING POWER than any Lasgun outside of the Hellgun variant, (maybe).
Are we talking about the same lasgun here? You know, the ones that blow football sized holes in people? As someone said before, using Inquisitor stats isn't the best idea. I mean, a naked marine can take a hit to the head with a lascannon and only suffer a light wound! On the other hand, we have lasguns blowing off limbs and gutting people in novels and codexes.

Lord Merlin
08-10-2007, 03:10
Why even bother with the dynamo aspect of it? Just equip then with bolt action rifles. I mean the armor of the age would scale back on anything punching straight through stuff and would reduce its power making it a projectile flashlight.

ssgtdude
08-10-2007, 03:47
For crying out loud. who cares if the human hand pulling back a bolt couldn't generate the power needed? Why not have the bolt strip back and insert a battery for Christ sake. It's a silly game after all. If they want to use a bot action lasgun let them. My own army had multiple styles of lasgun within it's use why worry about it in the end?

Think of it this way. the guardsmen would would feel right at home reloading a clip even if it was bullet shaped batteries they were loading. We are talking about the 40K universe and who isn't to say that by that time they couldn't develop a dynamo whatchamacallit that would work by just pulling back a bolt. The limits of technology is boundless given time. Engineers can create anything so long as you give them the specifications you want something to work in.

Sekhmet
08-10-2007, 04:00
Lasers, and thus lasguns, work by creating heat... not kinetic energy. Lasguns have absolutely no stopping power. Sure they'll melt your face... but they won't physically push you back.

Thus, if you fired a bunch of lasguns at a terminator charging at you, if you didn't do any damage to him, he wouldn't slow down one bit. If you fired a lot of bullets at him, even if you didn't do any damage, you would slow him... a bit.


What I don't understand is the reasoning you're using for devising such a weapon.



I have a plan for my new Imperial Guard army, which is going to be from a world which was technologically at the level of World War 2. So bolt action rifles are the norm. The Fluff, which isn’t finished, goes that they did indeed embrace the imperial creed, but wouldn’t update there technology. Seeing as they had made do with it for the past millennia, why should they change it? They then proved through many trails against guardsman that there weapons were level with the humble lasgun, apart from its hitting power.

As such the Adeptus Mechanicus crafted lasguns which on the exterior looked like a bolt action rifle, but were in fact powered by a dynamo in the bolt. So each cock of the bolt made a charge for a shot.

So their bolt action rifles were level with the lasgun. So in response, the AdMech made lasguns that looked like bolt action rifles for them.

Why would they take the lasguns if they just proved that their bolt action weapons were equal? Isn't that the whole point?


who isn't to say that by that time they couldn't develop a dynamo whatchamacallit that would work by just pulling back a bolt. The limits of technology is boundless given time. Engineers can create anything so long as you give them the specifications you want something to work in.
The concept of a 100% efficient engine says it's not possible. If pulling back a bolt recharges a lasgun, you could transfer that lasgun's power from firing an extremely hot beam of light to simply mimicing a human hand motion and pulling back the bolt again. As pulling back a bolt is nothing compared to the energy output, you suddenly have a little piece of hardware that's generating a lot of energy for free. The Imperium could quite literally turn into a utopian society.

Savant
08-10-2007, 04:08
Lasguns shouldn't kickback when fired, but they still do in the fluff. Remember, 40k is more fantasy than it is sci-fi - where the rule of cool always takes precedence.

It's like those people who argue how lightsabers or warp drives would really work - they don't. Lasguns work because they're cool, they don't make sense realistically to begin with. So if you want a bolt-action version go for it - you can't make an unrealistic version of something that was never real in the first place.

legio mortis
08-10-2007, 04:20
Lasers, and thus lasguns, work by creating heat... not kinetic energy. Lasguns have absolutely no stopping power. Sure they'll melt your face... but they won't physically push you back.
However, there are many mentions in the fluff of lasguns having stopping power. Remember, that 40k is a science fantasy setting, and the descriptions of lasgun effects really aren't in sync with normal physics. We have accounts of lasguns blowing off heads and stuff like that, so lasguns must work off of different properties that normal lasers.

Sekhmet
08-10-2007, 04:48
OP stated:



Do you my fellow warseers see this as possible, any input is welcome

So I basically stated no and stated logical reasons why I see this as not possible on the basis of science and fluff. He asked for an opinion and I gave it.

Born Again
08-10-2007, 07:40
Well, if they don't understand how to use Las tecnology, you could model them with Autoguns and Autopistols (same profiles as the respective Las weps). Automatic and half automatic weaponry was available to WW2 era soldiers. Autoguns with rifle-grips (which would make them voulnerable to recoil) and limited magazines look much like your average bolt action rifle (without the bolt loading mechanism). The Death Korps of Krieg models from Forge World use something that looks like WW2 rifles (while still being lasguns).

Just what I was going to say. For lower than Imperial tech worlds, I've always been a fan of guardsmen with autoguns. They have exactly the same profile but fit the fluff better.


Lasers, and thus lasguns, work by creating heat... not kinetic energy. Lasguns have absolutely no stopping power. Sure they'll melt your face... but they won't physically push you back.


Actually, from page 60 of the 3rd edition rulebook...



The short duration high energy beam produces such a rapid temperature change on the target's surface that it vapourises in a small explosion.

The force of this explosion may well knock back the target as though it were hit with a solid projectile weapon. But granted, there shouldn't be any recoil.

On the matter in general, I'd like to point out the only time a regiment would have weapons that suit its look are when they are manufactured on their homeworld. Cadians, for instance, have a cadian pattern lasgun. If the world doesn't have the tech level necessary to build lasguns, they wouldn't have lasguns. The AdMech and Munitorium aren't going to put all their time and effort into researching, designing, engineering and manufacturing a weapon as vastly different as the one the OP describes for the sake of one world's guard.

Argastes
08-10-2007, 08:40
For crying out loud. who cares if the human hand pulling back a bolt couldn't generate the power needed? Why not have the bolt strip back and insert a battery for Christ sake. It's a silly game after all. If they want to use a bot action lasgun let them. My own army had multiple styles of lasgun within it's use why worry about it in the end?

Umm, I don't think anyone's "worried about it" or saying that they won't "let him" He asked what we thought of the idea, some people told him it wouldn't work. If he didn't want to hear opinions, he wouldn't have asked for them. Chill out, stop complaining that people have done exactly what the OP asked them to do, and stop pretending that just because we pointed out why it wouldn't work somehow means we're trying to stop him.


Think of it this way. the guardsmen would would feel right at home reloading a clip even if it was bullet shaped batteries they were loading. We are talking about the 40K universe and who isn't to say that by that time they couldn't develop a dynamo whatchamacallit that would work by just pulling back a bolt. The limits of technology is boundless given time. Engineers can create anything so long as you give them the specifications you want something to work in.

No. If they can develop a dynamo that generates enough energy to power a lethal laser just by being pulled back a few inches by a human hand, that would mean they can develop technology which puts out more energy than is put into it--a fundamental physical impossibility in real life, and something which would certainly have more effects than just bolt-action lasguns in the 40K setting. Engineers can develop a lot, but not "anything": Free-energy machines are not possible, and that's exactly what you'd have if you had a gadget whose energy output exceeds input somehow.


Lasers, and thus lasguns, work by creating heat... not kinetic energy. Lasguns have absolutely no stopping power. Sure they'll melt your face... but they won't physically push you back.

Disclaimer: What I'm about to say deals with how laser weapons would work in reality, and 40K differs from reality in various ways, so who knows how true my point would be in the 40K universe. But:

A real laser weapon, such as that in the Boeing 747-based airborne laser system (which is a theater anti-ballistic-missile system), works by heating the target so intensely and rapidly, and on such a small area, that the material's capacity to conduct heat away from the targeted point is exceeded by the heat being pumped into it, and the target point is vaporised--explosively, if the laser is powerful enough. So laser weapons CAN blow/punch holes through solid matter. So realistically, a lasgun wouldn't melt your face off; it's beam would be focused far too finely to heat your whole face, instead heating only a small point, and it would heat that small point far more intensely than just to the point of melting. Rather than melting your whole face off, it would blow a hole in your face as one point on your flesh became superheated and explosively vaporized, leaving a sizable wound cavity (although for obvious reasons this wound is always on the surface, rather than being able to achieve the deep penetration that a bullet can have, which will make it rather ineffective as a man-stopper because the most reliable way to kill someone is by perforating their vital organs--maybe that's why it's only Strength 3). This limitation can be overcome to a degree by rapidly pulsing the laser, so that it "drills" into the target--basically blasting a new wound into the bottom of the previous one several times in very rapid succession, so that good penetration can be achieved (although you have to provide enough time between pulses for vaporized material from the previous pulse to expand away from the target area, otherwise it will reduce the beam's effectiveness). This is the mechanism I'd imagine lasguns use--each "shot" actually comprising several pulses in a small fraction of a second.

As I said, who knows how pertinent this is to 40K's reality, but I don't think that lasguns are properly imagined as "heat beams" which burn/melt wide areas of the target's surface. Instead, I think their beams would be very tightly collimated and would blast a hole in the target through ultra-rapid heating to the point of explosive vaporization of the target's material. Although of course, if the target's material is thick armor plating which requires lots of energy to vaporise (like terminator armor), it would be very difficult to penetrate with a laser beam.

stormblade
08-10-2007, 09:23
Lasers don't 'melt' anything, they make precise cuts- that's why laser operations are possible.

Progena
08-10-2007, 10:32
A real laser weapon, such as that in the Boeing 747-based airborne laser system (which is a theater anti-ballistic-missile system), works by heating the target so intensely and rapidly, and on such a small area, that the material's capacity to conduct heat away from the targeted point is exceeded by the heat being pumped into it, and the target point is vaporised--explosively, if the laser is powerful enough.

That's the one that currently needs a nuklear power plant to work right? :p

Well, my point is that if it takes a power plant to work a laser today, then I don't think any hand operated generator could put out enough energy for a shot (even 38.000 years from now).

Sai-Lauren
08-10-2007, 11:46
You could have them as normal rifles - autoguns have exactly the same stats as lasguns.

You can even justify it by saying that their home planets environment makes bullet weapons much more effective than las weapons (dust and water vapour will reduce the power of a laser by absorbtion/scattering), so their guard units use them rather than going through all the hassle of retraining them.


Lasers don't 'melt' anything, they make precise cuts- that's why laser operations are possible.
No, lasers heat up the material at the focal point, be it air, metal, glass, the lens in your eye (lasik), or whatever.

What happens next depends on the amount of energy the laser's putting out and the material in question - it could simply heat up (possibly becoming a plasma), do nothing (laser pointer), melt, sublimate straight into a gas, or explosively vapourise creating massive heat trauma to everything around it.

stormblade
08-10-2007, 12:01
.
No, lasers heat up the material at the focal point, be it air, metal, glass, the lens in your eye (lasik), or whatever.

What happens next depends on the amount of energy the laser's putting out and the material in question - it could simply heat up (possibly becoming a plasma), do nothing (laser pointer), melt, sublimate straight into a gas, or explosively vapourise creating massive heat trauma to everything around it.

- Alright,thanks for the correction.;)

BenK
08-10-2007, 12:34
I think one of the biggest (and perhaps ignored) benefits of lasguns to the guard is zero recoil. A lasgun would literally be point-and-shoot, you could fire it easily on the move, etc. The recoil of a rifle and the number of factors involved in accurately firing one require at lot more training than firing a lasgun would.

Which is a big deal for an army that recruits billions.

Argastes
08-10-2007, 13:24
That's the one that currently needs a nuklear power plant to work right? :p

Well, my point is that if it takes a power plant to work a laser today, then I don't think any hand operated generator could put out enough energy for a shot (even 38.000 years from now).

Hahahah, no... it's actually powered by the chemical reaction between iodine, chlorine, and hydrogen peroxide. There is no major electrical power source involved. But yeah, another unrealistic thing about lasguns is the idea that a power supply the size of that used by a lasgun could store enough energy for dozens of shots from a lethal laser and is safe, cheap, durable, and easy to mass produce. It's not that it's theoretically impossible, but the implications of an electrical power supply that has such an ultra-high energy density, and is so cheap and commonplace, are not really explored. It's the classic sci-fi problem of a writer dreaming up some minor piece of tech, attributing to it certain characteristics which seem far from earthshaking to him, and never really appreciating the full significance of it's implications.


I think one of the biggest (and perhaps ignored) benefits of lasguns to the guard is zero recoil. A lasgun would literally be point-and-shoot, you could fire it easily on the move, etc. The recoil of a rifle and the number of factors involved in accurately firing one require at lot more training than firing a lasgun would.

Which is a big deal for an army that recruits billions.

To be fair, a modern small-caliber assault rifle, if correctly designed, is also basically point-and-shoot inside of about 300 meters (which is where most infantry engagements take place), and while not truly recoilless, has light enough recoil that it doesn't really matter: It doesn't make it harder to shoot, and doesn't require any additional training time to teach recruits how to deal with it. Training a soldier to use a lasgun accurately wouldn't require much less training time than teaching him to shoot an M16.

MorningLightMountain
08-10-2007, 14:53
Sounds like that episode of Futurama when Fry joins the Earth Army :D

When his Lasgun loses power the lasbolts just drip out of the barrel onto the floor and he has to wind it up again :) There's a little handle on the side he has to wind up like a jack-in-the-box and it plays "pop goes the weasle" as he turns it :cheese:

MrBigMr
08-10-2007, 15:51
Could it be possible the Imperial lasgun, or laser technology in 40K in general, is based on a free electron laser. Basicly it forms a beam by accelerating electrons via magnets. The result is same as with normal laser. If 40K lasguns truly are ripped from Dune, then it would be a fair assumption. In Dune the lasguns are said to fire "sub-atomic particles" or "beams", which an electron is.

But that's just me.

Sekhmet
08-10-2007, 16:21
Disclaimer: What I'm about to say deals with how laser weapons would work in reality, and 40K differs from reality in various ways, so who knows how true my point would be in the 40K universe. But:

A real laser weapon, such as that in the Boeing 747-based airborne laser system (which is a theater anti-ballistic-missile system), works by heating the target so intensely and rapidly, and on such a small area, that the material's capacity to conduct heat away from the targeted point is exceeded by the heat being pumped into it, and the target point is vaporised--explosively, if the laser is powerful enough. So laser weapons CAN blow/punch holes through solid matter. So realistically, a lasgun wouldn't melt your face off; it's beam would be focused far too finely to heat your whole face, instead heating only a small point, and it would heat that small point far more intensely than just to the point of melting. Rather than melting your whole face off, it would blow a hole in your face as one point on your flesh became superheated and explosively vaporized, leaving a sizable wound cavity (although for obvious reasons this wound is always on the surface, rather than being able to achieve the deep penetration that a bullet can have, which will make it rather ineffective as a man-stopper because the most reliable way to kill someone is by perforating their vital organs--maybe that's why it's only Strength 3). This limitation can be overcome to a degree by rapidly pulsing the laser, so that it "drills" into the target--basically blasting a new wound into the bottom of the previous one several times in very rapid succession, so that good penetration can be achieved (although you have to provide enough time between pulses for vaporized material from the previous pulse to expand away from the target area, otherwise it will reduce the beam's effectiveness). This is the mechanism I'd imagine lasguns use--each "shot" actually comprising several pulses in a small fraction of a second.


The ABL doesn't burn through a missile, or disintegrate it. Rather it heats the missile skin, weakening it and causing failure due to flight stresses. It doesn't vaporize a portion of the skin.

Tehkonrad
08-10-2007, 16:31
yeah adynamo would really screw you over

Progena
08-10-2007, 17:19
Hahahah, no... it's actually powered by the chemical reaction between iodine, chlorine, and hydrogen peroxide. There is no major electrical power source involved. But yeah, another unrealistic thing about lasguns is the idea that a power supply the size of that used by a lasgun could store enough energy for dozens of shots from a lethal laser and is safe, cheap, durable, and easy to mass produce. It's not that it's theoretically impossible, but the implications of an electrical power supply that has such an ultra-high energy density, and is so cheap and commonplace, are not really explored. It's the classic sci-fi problem of a writer dreaming up some minor piece of tech, attributing to it certain characteristics which seem far from earthshaking to him, and never really appreciating the full significance of it's implications.


*Scratches head* Perhaps I should stop watching Discovery then. There was this (serious actually) program on new military tecnology which featured a stationary US missileshield automatic defence laser which needed a fusion reactor to operate. That and their new 6000 kg high-tech self-guiding bomb, that was so large it needed to be dropped from a propeller-driven Hercules transport plane. Best laugh I'd had in years. :D

But that's beside the point.

icegreentea
08-10-2007, 17:21
maybe you could give them all hotshot lasguns, one superpowered shot per cell, and you cycle your cells via bolt action?

that all being said, i don't think the mechanicum would really care. if they really feel that bolt actions are so much better, then that probably means that they are all above average marksmen. maybe give them all longlas, or normal hotshots, or a really long barrelled autogun. i dont think they would go through the trouble of customizing a design for a world so small.

Kegluneq
08-10-2007, 18:21
i dont think they would go through the trouble of customizing a design for a world so small.
Bear in mind even Tanith lasguns are/were built specifically for that world, although granted not to that level of customisation. Since the Vostroyans get their own ornate gun, I don't see why the bolt-action guys shouldn't get something similar, although it should function as a lasgun in pretty much every respect though.

Inquisitor Maul
08-10-2007, 19:17
Could it be possible the Imperial lasgun, or laser technology in 40K in general, is based on a free electron laser. Basicly it forms a beam by accelerating electrons via magnets. The result is same as with normal laser. If 40K lasguns truly are ripped from Dune, then it would be a fair assumption. In Dune the lasguns are said to fire "sub-atomic particles" or "beams", which an electron is.

But that's just me.

Didn't those cause a Thermonuclear explosion on both ends of the beam if it hit an Energy Shield? :D

Wolf Scout Ewan
08-10-2007, 19:29
Laslocks are single shot not bolt action. Laslocks function in a similar way to muskets in that they fire once per charge. They use one power cell for a shot, but are only as powerful as normal las rifle firing one shot.

Bolt action weapons work using either a internal or external magazine like a pump action shotgun.

Sekhmet
08-10-2007, 21:53
Bear in mind even Tanith lasguns are/were built specifically for that world, although granted not to that level of customisation. Since the Vostroyans get their own ornate gun, I don't see why the bolt-action guys shouldn't get something similar, although it should function as a lasgun in pretty much every respect though.
But they were built on their own respective worlds.



Didn't those cause a Thermonuclear explosion on both ends of the beam if it hit an Energy Shield? :D
Yes. Fun times. That's why there aren't many lasguns used in Dune.

MadDoc
08-10-2007, 22:10
*Scratches head* Perhaps I should stop watching Discovery then. There was this (serious actually) program on new military tecnology which featured a stationary US missileshield automatic defence laser which needed a fusion reactor to operate.

*Scratches head* Fusion reactor? :eyebrows: Did I somehow miss the announcement of the development of a stable fusion reactor? I wasn't aware that the ITER project (or anybody else for that matter) had succeeded in developing one as of yet.

Also one minor point, 40k is set Millenia in the future. Do you not think its possible there would've been a few advances in human understanding and technology over the intervening period?

As for the bolt-action, just make it a shot primer. The gun could use a standard las-pack, its just that the bolt action primes each shot (the Guard in question would be habitualised to the lock-shoot-clear-lock procedure of their old ballistic type weapons so this wouldn't require any additional training), nice, neat and everybody is kept happy(ish). :angel:

carl
08-10-2007, 22:22
*Scratches head* Fusion reactor? Did I somehow miss the announcement of the development of a stable fusion reactor? I wasn't aware that the ITER project (or anybody else for that matter) had succeeded in developing one as of yet.


Same head scratching here too LOL.

A point worth noting also is that modern laser tech is horribbly inefficent, belive where still hovering at the 10% mark, which means a 2 Gigawatt powerplant would only produce a 200 megawatt laser beam even with 100% efficiancy transmishion. Add in atmospheric effects and transmishion inefficciancies and it's more like 20 meggawatts on target.

If they managed to produce a 90% efficiancy laser then a battery capable of sustaining 50 amps at 800V for 1 minute could power a lasgun. considering that modern NIHM packs can hit 48V at more than 400 amps for a minute with appropriate linking I don't see it, (lasgun powerpacks), as being very unlikliy TBH.


On ][ weapons. It's been explicitly stated that A) special and Heavy Weapons are toned down in comparision to stuff like lasguns and Bolters. B) all weapons are toned down in raw damage somewhat to prevent 1 shot kill syndrome with every weapon. C) in spite of the various tone downs, most basic weapons, (I.E Boltguns, BoltPistols, Lasguns, Laspistols, Autoguns, Autopistols, Stubbers, e.t.c.), are in *scakle* power wise with each other, so a Lasgun and an autogun CAN be accurratly compared.

It also makes sense because if you hit a tanks front armour with a slug you get a flattened slug. A laser just burns a small depreshion. Get a laser capable of pumping out the equivelent of pumping out several bullet power level shots a second and you've got a laser weapon that can burn through several inches of tank armour in that time too. So theirs no real way a lasgun COULD have that much power or it would be powerful enough to burn through Chimera's and Rhino's front armour in a 1 second burst too.

Argastes
08-10-2007, 23:44
*Scratches head* Perhaps I should stop watching Discovery then. There was this (serious actually) program on new military tecnology which featured a stationary US missileshield automatic defence laser which needed a fusion reactor to operate.

That program was discussing a different laser weapon than the ABL that I mentioned. The ABL is mounted on an aircraft, and is not stationary. It's also not powered by a fusion reactor--that would be a bit tricky, since fusion power is still non-viable (the reactors take more energy to run than they produce). Maybe the program was talking about a weapon system which is merely theoretical, and won't be practical until fusion power is a viable technology? Although there's nothing special about the electricity generated by a fusion power plant, so I don't see why a laser could *only* work with fusion power--if it can be powered by a fusion reactor, there's no reason it couldn't also be powered by fission reactors (or gas turbines, or diesel generators, or whatever) of equivalent output.


The ABL doesn't burn through a missile, or disintegrate it. Rather it heats the missile skin, weakening it and causing failure due to flight stresses. It doesn't vaporize a portion of the skin.

You're right, brain fart on my end. But the ABL is sort of an exception to the rule; the mechanism by which it achieves it's kill is unusual. Most other real laser weapons (whether just proposed, or actually developed) work by actually burning through the target's surface rather than letting aerodynamic stress do the work. ATL, the SDI ABM lasers, MIRACL, the nuclear-pumped X-ray lasers (!) proposed in Project Excalibur, the YAG lasers proposed for use in fighter jets, etc. all work through a "direct" kill mechanism whereby the target is damaged by the laser itself, not just by weakening it and letting the airstream do the actual damage. I assume that the same is true of 40K lasers--otherwise they would only work against high-speed airborne targets!

Sekhmet
09-10-2007, 00:04
That program was discussing a different laser weapon than the ABL that I mentioned. The ABL is mounted on an aircraft, and is not stationary. It's also not powered by a fusion reactor--that would be a bit tricky, since fusion power is still non-viable (the reactors take more energy to run than they produce). Maybe the program was talking about a weapon system which is merely theoretical, and won't be practical until fusion power is a viable technology? Although there's nothing special about the electricity generated by a fusion power plant, so I don't see why a laser could *only* work with fusion power--if it can be powered by a fusion reactor, there's no reason it couldn't also be powered by fission reactors (or gas turbines, or diesel generators, or whatever) of equivalent output.


Or a LOT of batteries.

Like that car.. that ran on like 7000 Li laptop batteries.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=pm6gD6r3-cw

ssgtdude
09-10-2007, 06:28
Umm, I don't think anyone's "worried about it" or saying that they won't "let him" He asked what we thought of the idea, some people told him it wouldn't work. If he didn't want to hear opinions, he wouldn't have asked for them. Chill out, stop complaining that people have done exactly what the OP asked them to do, and stop pretending that just because we pointed out why it wouldn't work somehow means we're trying to stop him.



No. If they can develop a dynamo that generates enough energy to power a lethal laser just by being pulled back a few inches by a human hand, that would mean they can develop technology which puts out more energy than is put into it--a fundamental physical impossibility in real life, and something which would certainly have more effects than just bolt-action lasguns in the 40K setting. Engineers can develop a lot, but not "anything": Free-energy machines are not possible, and that's exactly what you'd have if you had a gadget whose energy output exceeds input somehow.



Disclaimer: What I'm about to say deals with how laser weapons would work in reality, and 40K differs from reality in various ways, so who knows how true my point would be in the 40K universe. But:

A real laser weapon, such as that in the Boeing 747-based airborne laser system (which is a theater anti-ballistic-missile system), works by heating the target so intensely and rapidly, and on such a small area, that the material's capacity to conduct heat away from the targeted point is exceeded by the heat being pumped into it, and the target point is vaporised--explosively, if the laser is powerful enough. So laser weapons CAN blow/punch holes through solid matter. So realistically, a lasgun wouldn't melt your face off; it's beam would be focused far too finely to heat your whole face, instead heating only a small point, and it would heat that small point far more intensely than just to the point of melting. Rather than melting your whole face off, it would blow a hole in your face as one point on your flesh became superheated and explosively vaporized, leaving a sizable wound cavity (although for obvious reasons this wound is always on the surface, rather than being able to achieve the deep penetration that a bullet can have, which will make it rather ineffective as a man-stopper because the most reliable way to kill someone is by perforating their vital organs--maybe that's why it's only Strength 3). This limitation can be overcome to a degree by rapidly pulsing the laser, so that it "drills" into the target--basically blasting a new wound into the bottom of the previous one several times in very rapid succession, so that good penetration can be achieved (although you have to provide enough time between pulses for vaporized material from the previous pulse to expand away from the target area, otherwise it will reduce the beam's effectiveness). This is the mechanism I'd imagine lasguns use--each "shot" actually comprising several pulses in a small fraction of a second.

As I said, who knows how pertinent this is to 40K's reality, but I don't think that lasguns are properly imagined as "heat beams" which burn/melt wide areas of the target's surface. Instead, I think their beams would be very tightly collimated and would blast a hole in the target through ultra-rapid heating to the point of explosive vaporization of the target's material. Although of course, if the target's material is thick armor plating which requires lots of energy to vaporise (like terminator armor), it would be very difficult to penetrate with a laser beam.

Thanks for the education on how lasers work.

Now how is it that you simply read over my post and neglected to read that by pulling back the bolt they could simply strip from the clip a battery to power the laser. You weren't the only one to miss that section, just the last to.

It is my understanding that the lasgun is powered by basically a battery in and of itself. One that is rechargeable, by almost any means even to the point of throwing them into a fire. If they have the ability to make a power pack strong enough to fire the lasgun why would it be impossible to make a single use battery that is stripped from the cartridge to power the lasgun??? This would give him the ability to use a bolt style lasgun and not worry about a whatchamacallit dynamo to produce the power.

By allowing his guard to "reload" bullet shaped batteries he could give his guard the piece of mind they had in loading a weapon.

funny how in my entire post people still went back to saying that pulling back the bolt couldn't produce the energy when they missed that I included the energy source to begin with.

Argastes
09-10-2007, 07:22
Now how is it that you simply read over my post and neglected to read that by pulling back the bolt they could simply strip from the clip a battery to power the laser. You weren't the only one to miss that section, just the last to.

I didn't miss or neglect it, I just felt no need to say anything in response to it, since it would indeed work perfectly well. Your post basically had two components: In the firstly one, you proposed that the bolt simply load single-shot power cells into the mechanism. I made no response to this suggestion, because I have nothing critical to say about it. In the second one, you asked why we couldn't assume that, by the 41st millennium, it has become possible to develop a hand-driven linear generator that can provide enough power to fire a lasgun in a single cycle. This second point was, as far as I could tell, a completely separate argument defending the plausibility of the OP's original idea, and was unconnected to your previous suggestion that the bolt action be used to load single-shot power cells. So I did respond to this second point, because it was based on a poor understanding of physics.


funny how in my entire post people still went back to saying that pulling back the bolt couldn't produce the energy when they missed that I included the energy source to begin with.

This is what you said: "We are talking about the 40K universe and who isn't to say that by that time they couldn't develop a dynamo whatchamacallit that would work by just pulling back a bolt. The limits of technology is boundless given time. Engineers can create anything so long as you give them the specifications you want something to work in."

Maybe everyone just misunderstood you somehow, but to me, it looks like you are pretty clearly saying that a hand-operated dynamo as the OP described, and NOT a bolt-action system for loading power cells, would be plausible in 40K, because the "limits of technology are boundless" and "engineers can create anything if you give them the specs". The way you worded it made it seem like you were no longer talking about the power-cell-loading system you had described earlier in your post, but had instead moved on to defending the plausibility of a lasgun powered by a hand-operated generator. So no, we didn't miss that you included the energy source to begin with, because it was clear that by the end of your post, you were no longer talking about any system using the energy source you initially described (single-shot power cells loaded by a bolt action).

Brother Siccarius
09-10-2007, 10:03
Because if that was possible then it would be standard for all Lasguns.

"Ok, so you're in the middle of no-mans land and you just emptied your last powercell. No problem! Just yank this lever a couple of hundred times and you'll have recharged your cell. Courtesy of the Adeptus Mechanicus."

I like the basic idea, but I have to agree with the other here that stadarisation is sacred to the Munitorum.

Actually according to the Imperial Guard Codex you can leave a standard issue Imperial las-cell out in the sun which will recharge it, or toss it in a campfire for a quick recharge (Though that reduces it's life-span considerably). It recharges though light and heat cells so I would imagine that in no-mans land there'd also be a lot of dead fellows to collect extra power packs off of. Actually, considering how the Laspack recharges, I'd imagine that any guardsmen that died in or near an explosion in no mans land would have some power boosted Las-packs.



On the matter in general, I'd like to point out the only time a regiment would have weapons that suit its look are when they are manufactured on their homeworld. Cadians, for instance, have a cadian pattern lasgun. If the world doesn't have the tech level necessary to build lasguns, they wouldn't have lasguns. The AdMech and Munitorium aren't going to put all their time and effort into researching, designing, engineering and manufacturing a weapon as vastly different as the one the OP describes for the sake of one world's guard.

Maybe not, but the Guard regiment in question wouldn't leave the mustering fields without several hundred crates of extra weapons likely produced on-world, not to mention manufactory facilities on the Imperial Fleet. I would imagine that the reason they would use non-standard las technology is that they find it easier to handle, repair, replace, or simply kill with.

The only thing they'd have to worry about is a guardsman's natural tendency to collect weapons on the battlefield.


Personally I like the idea of the Bolt-Action instead of the Lasgun. Basically you trade number of shots for accuracy and hitting power that in some ways evens it out. Though, for added "semi-realism" I'd give them the sharpshooters doctrine to show how more accurate the weapon and it's user is than the spray and pray of the standard lasgun, but that's just me.

Born Again
09-10-2007, 11:56
Maybe not, but the Guard regiment in question wouldn't leave the mustering fields without several hundred crates of extra weapons likely produced on-world, not to mention manufactory facilities on the Imperial Fleet. I would imagine that the reason they would use non-standard las technology is that they find it easier to handle, repair, replace, or simply kill with.


Hence going back to the point of them either having a more primitive form of weapon (autoguns... I believe the OP stated WW2 tech levels, so even this is pushing it) or standard lasguns carried by the fleet.

Progena
09-10-2007, 14:31
*Scratches head* Fusion reactor? :eyebrows: Did I somehow miss the announcement of the development of a stable fusion reactor? I wasn't aware that the ITER project (or anybody else for that matter) had succeeded in developing one as of yet.


That program was discussing a different laser weapon than the ABL that I mentioned. The ABL is mounted on an aircraft, and is not stationary. It's also not powered by a fusion reactor--that would be a bit tricky, since fusion power is still non-viable (the reactors take more energy to run than they produce). Maybe the program was talking about a weapon system which is merely theoretical, and won't be practical until fusion power is a viable technology? Although there's nothing special about the electricity generated by a fusion power plant, so I don't see why a laser could *only* work with fusion power--if it can be powered by a fusion reactor, there's no reason it couldn't also be powered by fission reactors (or gas turbines, or diesel generators, or whatever) of equivalent output.

You're both of course right, there is currenty no such thing as fusion reactor. I messed up the terms. I ment fission reactor, and I didn't want to write 'nuclear power plant' again. Also in my defence, I'd like to state that I'm not a scientist. In fact I'm 19 years old, come from a country without nuclear powerplants, I'm the grandson of a farmer and was born in the (then) most northern city on earth. I reserve for myself the right to make mistakes. ;)

The program I saw was Discovery's Future Weapons (http://dsc.discovery.com/fansites/future-weapons/future-weapons.html) with Richard 'Mach' Machowicz. It's been a while since I saw the program, but I think the laser in the program was the Tactical High-Energy Laser (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tactical_High_Energy_Laser), a 'High-Energy Deuterium Flouride Laser' (whatever that means) used against short range missiles. The program didn't mention that it could be portable (and was hooked up to a powerplant the size of a small house, which I thought was funny as hell). Saw a video of a testfiring, seemed to work. I might've misunderstood a few things, but it's hard to pay attention when you're 'rolling on the floor laughing'. :rolleyes:


Actually according to the Imperial Guard Codex you can leave a standard issue Imperial las-cell out in the sun which will recharge it, or toss it in a campfire for a quick recharge (Though that reduces it's life-span considerably). It recharges though light and heat cells so I would imagine that in no-mans land there'd also be a lot of dead fellows to collect extra power packs off of. Actually, considering how the Laspack recharges, I'd imagine that any guardsmen that died in or near an explosion in no mans land would have some power boosted Las-packs.

Yes of course, I know my 40k lore, but I just figured it'd be much quicker to jank a lever one hundred times than putting your cell out in the sun for a couple of hours, especially in a battle situation or bad weather. And why would you hand out extra ammunition clips to soldiers if you know they could just pick some of their dead friends when they run out of ammo? Heck, why hand out guns to everyone when someone always dies in the initial charge? You could just do like every great Russian leader has done, from Tsar Peter the Great to Stalin, hand out a gun to one man and an extra clip to the next and tell him to follow the guy with the gun untill he dies then pick up his weapon. :p

*Gets recruited by the Munitorum for coming up with a radical new sollution to the firearms and munitions shortage*

Curufew
09-10-2007, 15:20
What's the difference between the different types and marks of Lasgun. Let's say one produced on Mars and the other one produced on Cadia??

Nargus
09-10-2007, 15:22
You could just do like every great Russian leader has done, from Tsar Peter the Great to Stalin, hand out a gun to one man and an extra clip to the next and tell him to follow the guy with the gun untill he dies then pick up his weapon. :p

I have images of a Terminator squad being followed into battle by 5 marines in boxer shorts.

"I am sorry veteran brother, terminator armour shortage y'see. You'll have to wait for Brother Barry to snuff it."

carlisimo
10-10-2007, 01:57
I have another question.

We call them flashlights here in the US, but what about in the UK? I hear you use "torch" for the same object, but that never comes up in any GW literature.

carl
10-10-2007, 08:20
It's Flashlights here too:p, it's got a better ring to it:D.

ssgtdude
11-10-2007, 01:45
What's the difference between the different types and marks of Lasgun. Let's say one produced on Mars and the other one produced on Cadia??

According to what I have read it is pretty much the general style and look of the gun. From the fluff I have read the materials used in making the stocks might change. In my guard army, I have many different variants of the weapon. Some look similar to current day slug throwers, while others look like the mars pattern lasgun and still others appear like the Cadian lasguns.

Use your imagination.

BTW seen a beautiful bullpup conversion of the lasgun. Excellent look to a versatile weapon.

Wolflord Havoc
11-10-2007, 10:57
I have no issues with a bolt action weapon being used - however in answer to my fellow posters - to my minds eye (and physics aside) the 'lasgun' has always been the equivilant of an M16/SA80/HK33 assault rifle with perhaps the pattern used by the DKoK being the equivilant to an FN FAL/M14/G3. The difference being (obviously) that the Lasgun will not suffer feed jam's (few if any moving parts) and ammo resupply is relatively straight foward when compared to the resupply issue faced by an ammo dependent weapon. Unless you need size 5s and get size 2s.

As for the weapon effects - I would suspect that the energy imparted by a 'lasbolt' (yes yes I know - but 'laser beam' sounds wrong) upon flesh would superheat the area and I imagine that flash boiling someones head might result in it 'exploding' or an arm being 'severed' by the same means.

Cuthullu
20-12-2007, 07:44
As for Fluff, a lasgun is as powerful as modern infantry assault rifles. A lasgun has no AP, no problem, latest German Army Flak Vests can sustain a shot from an AK. Real Reason is, AK is 7,62mm.

Ok this two things in mind, why are lasguns better?
- no moveable parts, no jamming
- no maintenance beside cleaning the outside needed
- power cells hold up to 60 shots, so more than a magazine nowadays.
- rechargable ammo, so no need to carry heavy boxes of ammo around
- the beam travels with the speed of light, making it impossible to dodge the shot. A projectile weapon fired from several hundred metres away, you might be able to dodge underl lucky circumstances. A light beam, you cannot.

As Laserweapons can be built in reality, but are so heavy and big that they cannot be used as infantry weapons, 40k i think has found an element (and i believe our current chemical element table is not all that exists in universe) that is able to hold and conserve all the power needed in a small enough way to make lasguns buildable.
If so, on the other hand, me as a guardsmen would prefer overcharging my magazine to bring it to an explosion, releasing all the energy hold inside for the 60 shots in one. Qould be quite better to kill all those space monsters. I refeer to the pen & paper roleplay game Rifts, where you can do exactly this.

So, it might be possible someday to build a real lasgun of assault gun size, the advantages will be the same as in 40k. But as long as we havent found a way to conserve all the nergy needed in a small battery like thing, it is fiction.

I agree on the pulse issue for penetration power. A lasgun shot needs to be a pulse shot, several pulses in nanoseconds.

As for the question of the OP, just do it. Lasguns can have mostly any design, they have no recoil and moveable parts, rifle design just makes it easier for the operator to be accurate, as having a long barrel with a stock pressed against your shoulder makes your aiming easier.

Gorbad Ironclaw
20-12-2007, 07:58
I don't know, I rather imagine that the soldiers would be pretty quick to snatch up and use better equipment than what they are used to.

A rifle that's lighter, have a higher rate of fire, more ammunition, doesn't jam, and doesn't require near as much cleaning to use effectivly? Why yes thank you, I'll take that. And I bet those soldiers would to.

They might not be able to produce lasguns locally, but I honestly don't see the point in producing a 'fake' lasgun that looks like something else. There is plenty of time onboard the transports to train them in the new rifle, and they will need to know that anyway, as they can't be certain they can always get replacements of there own special brand. So why go through all the trouble in the first place?

It's one thing using different materials and the like for lasguns. But changing it so it works as essentially a bolt action rifle, I just don't see it myself. It's impractical for everybody, give you an inferiour IG regiment as they can't properly integrate equipment wise with anyone else(and just generally have a poorer weapon). I just don't see it happening.

sly_dog
20-12-2007, 11:09
I rather like the idea of bolt action las guns, but my question is how would this weapon Rapid Fire effectively?

Cuthullu
20-12-2007, 11:22
maybe you should ask your grand daddy, if he served in WWII, how to fast fire a bolt action rifle. It is possible.

sly_dog
20-12-2007, 11:28
I know it's possible, but say when those horrible monstrosities come bearing down on you, you don't perform the full action of recharging the weapon in your panic. I know usually a single las shot won't turn the tide, but it would take a steady man and a steady hand to quickly fire off the number of shots it would take to down something that could eat your head.

Sekhmet
20-12-2007, 11:46
maybe you should ask your grand daddy, if he served in WWII, how to fast fire a bolt action rifle. It is possible.

Americans used a semi-automatic rifle in WWII.

And wow this is an old thread.

Wolflord Havoc
20-12-2007, 12:03
Americans used a semi-automatic rifle in WWII.

And wow this is an old thread.

Unless he was a US Marine on Guadalcanal or one of the poor fethers on the Phillipines. In both case's he would have had a Springfield 08 bolt action.

Sekhmet
20-12-2007, 12:07
Unless he was a US Marine on Guadalcanal or one of the poor fethers on the Phillipines. In both case's he would have had a Springfield 08 bolt action.

Should've said the US Army.

Cuthullu
20-12-2007, 13:54
I know it's possible, but say when those horrible monstrosities come bearing down on you, you don't perform the full action of recharging the weapon in your panic. I know usually a single las shot won't turn the tide, but it would take a steady man and a steady hand to quickly fire off the number of shots it would take to down something that could eat your head.

Referring to actual drill training a soldier is drilled so many times that the actions he has to take beome reflexes. A comrade having his head ripped of by a grenade a second before, another crying out for mummy holding his guts in his hands while the enemy is charging from 200m, gun blazing and allover the sound of explosions, bullets and war, i think this is just as horrible as facing some alien beasts is for a soldier in the 40th millenium.

So i do think they have developed the drill lessons to let the necessary actions also become a reflex.

Individually, morale breaks up more easily or later, but generally army drill training is designed to keep you in your actions whilst being feared to death.

Wolflord Havoc
20-12-2007, 17:01
In my mind the Imperial Guardsman is every bit as well trained as a modern NATO soldier would be today. The repetitive training process designed to make things like stoppage drills, mag changes, CQ Combat Techniques (which in my mind is Hardened fighters rather than being 'rather good with a extra long bayonet') as well as evolutions such as room clearing or street fighting etc.

Basically when everything is going to feth around him the 'training' kicks in and the trooper does these combat processes almost automatically despite the almost state of shock that being in harms way puts one in.

Wolflord Havoc
20-12-2007, 17:05
Should've said the US Army.

Yep the US Army units in the Phillipines was denied use of the Garand due to the US govs fears that it might fall into the hands of the Japanese (they fully expected the Phillipines to fall) who would then learn its secrets. Couldn't have that.

And the US marines always get the good stuff 'after' the Army ;)

But I digress.

Adeptus Awsome
22-12-2007, 15:14
I think, if you had enough money and time, you could convert just "normal" bolt action rifles, not lasguns. They would be just like auto guns, and the planet from which your guardsmen come would produce their own rifle. They could use the M1 carbine (for leaders) and the M1 garand (for infantry grunts).

Vaz84
22-12-2007, 21:24
Heh

Lasgun power packs can be rubbed between your hands to recharge, well not really but the fluff has shown they are AMAZINGLY simple weapons that work well. Hence wide spread use. Its much like modern machinery, to make new molds, machinery lines, etc, to build this "alternative" las gun, would be more costly than just mass producing the tried and true standard lasguns.

Neat idea, but I imagine all guns would have to be made on their homeworld. Soon as they got an off-plant commisar he'd have to start mass executing his troops for failing to actually kill anything ;)