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View Full Version : can a deamon take over a wraithlord?



Tom20
08-10-2007, 14:52
so an a deamon take over a wraithlord and re shape some of it to looking more demonic?

Richter Kless
08-10-2007, 15:23
yes.............

MorningLightMountain
08-10-2007, 15:26
I'd say: absolutely!

00mrfish00
08-10-2007, 15:28
sounds like a plan.

pookie
08-10-2007, 15:33
well im going to play devils advocate and say "deffinatly Not".

Wraithlords are powered by Soul Stones and Constructed from Wraith Bone - which iirc contains tiny Spiders that feed off warp enegry - kind of like white blood cells in a human body. as they have no 'soul' to start with, then there wouldnt be a way of taking over a Wraith lord.

Baaltharus
08-10-2007, 15:33
Probably but it seems very unlikely due to the Warp Spiders (not the aspect warriors) within the matrix. Further more the spirits that inhabit Wraithlords are some of the strongest of all the Eldar and unlikely to be easily overpowered by even the most power daemon without a fight. Also the daemon would have to find a way to be able to break into a wraithlord in the first place.

Chilltouch
08-10-2007, 15:46
Wraithbone contains tiny spiders that feed off Warp Energy? Since when?

Damien 1427
08-10-2007, 15:55
The Craftworlds and Infinity Circuits do. Dunno if Wraithlords do.

And I'd say it's certainly possible. I recall a Slaanesh army with one as a regular Dreadnought, controlled by a daemon.

Quentin
08-10-2007, 15:57
Possible, but very very difficult.

MrBigMr
08-10-2007, 15:58
I never thought about that. I once asked if anti-daemon weapons work on wraithbone since it is grown via Warp energy. On possession, I don't see why not. If daemons can posses things like Rhinos and other metal hulks, why not psychoplastics? It's like a moist piece of paper just waiting for some spores to drop on it.

pookie
08-10-2007, 16:01
Wraithbone contains tiny spiders that feed off Warp Energy? Since when?

since always, its were the Warp Spider aspect gets its name. (ok so maybe its only been in the 'fluff' as long as WS have maybe?)

Tom20
08-10-2007, 16:12
so dose this soud good chaos warband captures a wraithlord and starts to sumon deamons into it and slowly turns it into mix of wraithlord and deamon wher warp flesh grovs out of the wraithlord and the spirits are eaten by the deamons who now control the body?

Mr Zephy
08-10-2007, 16:52
Wouldn't it be just like a demon possessing a normal person? But someone with a psychoplastic body?

Zapherion
08-10-2007, 16:59
i think im going to have to go ahead and say no a daemon couldnt. Firstly because of the warp spiders, but secondly because the soul of the wraithlord is enclosed within the spirt stone which a daemon cannot touch unless it is broken. Without the spirit stone, the construct of wraithbone is simply a lifeless lump of...well bone...with about as much life as a rock. I believe that daemons can possess rhinos etc because they have a machine spirit which can be corrupted and possessed...but a lifeless lump? id say no

Marstfu
08-10-2007, 16:59
Chaos captures Wraithlord.
Pull out soulstone, let daemon possess said stone, put it back in.

Done.

Jonke
08-10-2007, 16:59
If a demon (albeit a powerful one) can possess a talisman of Vaul certainly one could take over a humble wraithlord?

And the very cool modeling possibilites are too tempting not to do it.

Peace!

Mr Zephy
08-10-2007, 16:59
Simple answer: magik.

Zapherion
08-10-2007, 17:15
oooo thats such a cheeky sidestep :P

Noserenda
08-10-2007, 17:15
Warp Spiders inhabit the Infinity matrix specifically not Wraithbone generally! Thats like saying you could hack a lump of silicon because of its firewall :chrome:

Assuming you could pin down a wraithlord long enough itd be as fair game as anything or anyone else, and if you can get the soulstone out it would be a piece of ****, its a body designed to have a warp/soul entity controlling it after all.

Zapherion
08-10-2007, 17:26
its designed to have an eldar soul though

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
08-10-2007, 17:27
Guys, the fiction of 40K isn't supposed to affect us rational people, just the fanatical Emperor nuts of the 41st milenium: there is no such thing as the Machine Spirit. The techpriests have turned technology into a religion, as any astute reader would notice by their name. I know that vehicles can take the Power of the Machine Spirit upgrade, but everything I've ever read in the fiction either derides the Imperium for their superstitious view of technology or outright contradicts it.

Daemons can posses Rhinos and tanks because they are powerful creatures of the Warp. They are beings made up of energy and emotion, so of course they can mess with eletrical/mechanical parts.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go pray to my electric toothbrush to soothe it's cavity-fighting anima.

MrBigMr
08-10-2007, 17:32
Firstly because of the warp spiders
Which circulate within the infinity circuit of each Craftworld, cleaning it of any warp taint. So unles each wraithlord carries a Craftworld circuit with them, no spiders. Unless you're talking about those Death Spinner spiders.


but secondly because the soul of the wraithlord is enclosed within the spirt stone which a daemon cannot touch unless it is broken.
Rip it out.


Without the spirit stone, the construct of wraithbone is simply a lifeless lump of...well bone...with about as much life as a rock.
Like daemons have trouble manipulating stuff. Apart from the stone, everything the lord needs is there. Manipulation, power supply, weapons, etc. It's like replacing one OS with another. Like Noserenda said: "its a body designed to have a warp/soul entity controlling it after all."


I believe that daemons can possess rhinos etc because they have a machine spirit which can be corrupted and possessed...but a lifeless lump? id say no
Except that Rhinos shouldn't have a machine spirit, at least such machine spirit that can control the tank. By Imperial dogma, even lasguns have machine spirits, but you can't corrupt them to shoot their user.

Zapherion
08-10-2007, 17:41
Now you see i do actually think the machine spirit exists in 40K and is explained by things such as "the power of the machine spirit"

MrBigMr, by your theory, you should be able to corrupt a lasgun
"everything the lord needs is there. Manipulation, power supply, weapons, etc."
With a wraithlord, does the spirit stone not provide the power? Thus without it, its about as corruptable as a pen...its got the parts required, but no way of moving them. Unless of course it can levitate it...but i dont think so...you dont see many (or any) flying land raiders or defilers

Invader Nails
08-10-2007, 17:54
What I always figured was that when Imperials refer to the "machine spirit" they are actually talking about two things, which they mistakenly lump together as one.

The first is the wholly superstitious nonsense about every bit of tech, including lasguns and electric shavers, having a machine spirit.

The second is the servitor-esque biomechanical intelligence that gets put into snazzy Space Marine vehicles, which actually is real.


But back on the subject, I'd say that it would be exceptionally difficult, though not impossible, for a demon to A) break into the spirit stone of the Wraithlord and then B) overcome the strong Eldar soul within it. It would probably take a demon of exceptional power to do this. However, I tend to agree that it would be fairly easy to just rip the damn stone out and possess the artificial body directly. As has been pointed out, Wraithlords are specifically designed to be powered by warp juju, and I'm sure a demon could corrupt one to work for her.

MrBigMr
08-10-2007, 18:02
Now you see i do actually think the machine spirit exists in 40K and is explained by things such as "the power of the machine spirit"
Machine spirit is a real thing, anything from a calculator to a super AI has a machine spirit, but many people believe even things like bolters and rifles have machine spirits. You can corrupt a machine spirit, but quite often it's the smart ones, like the thing aboard Land Raiders and Dreadclaws. The rest machine corruption is physical infestation of the machine.


MrBigMr, by your theory, you should be able to corrupt a lasgun
"everything the lord needs is there. Manipulation, power supply, weapons, etc."
Physically. Weapons do corrupt, thus Chaos guns have those muzzle heads and spikes and stuff, but the gun won't sprout legs and run around shooting people.


With a wraithlord, does the spirit stone not provide the power?
I don't know, but in BFG damaging or destroying the infinity circuit, which is like a big spirit stone, only causes the ship Ld. to lower. This means that the ship just loses control. And a tank with spirit stones is like a machine spirit, helping to control it when the crew gets stunned. So it's more about control than power.


Thus without it, its about as corruptable as a pen...its got the parts required, but no way of moving them. Unless of course it can levitate it...but i dont think so...you dont see many (or any) flying land raiders or defilers
So if a spirit stone is the source of the power, a puny Eldar soul is enough, but a mighty Warp being has not hope of powering the lord?


B) overcome the strong Eldar soul within it.
But when a daemon slips into the Eldar's head, it can instant kill their silly asses like that.

Ashnari Doomsong
08-10-2007, 18:12
You know, I am going to have to agree with MrBigMr on this one. It's deffo possible; anything can be sanctified by Chaos. Hell, a Craftworld could be sanctified by Chaos. If some run-off-the-mill Daemon could take over a Wraithlord, however? No. It would take something pretty powerful, since the Wraithlords' spirits are the heroes of the Eldar race. However, if a Daemon Prince, or something close in power, decided that "Hey, I want to inhabit a Wraithlord", it could simply get its minions to capture the thing more or less intact(while no mean feat, surely not impossible), remove the spirit stone and act as a power source itself. Indeed, it would be an almost ideal vehicle for a Daemon given its psychosensitive nature.

So: While not as easy as our Eldar-despising friend here suggests, it should certainly be possible.

Progena
08-10-2007, 18:16
Daemons aren't able to tutch Spiritstones? That would have to be weak Daemons then, because there's a story in the new Chaos 'dex where a KoS snacks on an Autarch's Spiritstone.

Invader Nails
08-10-2007, 18:17
But when a daemon slips into the Eldar's head, it can instant kill their silly asses like that.

"Kill" yes, but overcoming a strong, pre-killed, Eldar soul in a protected environment is another matter altogether.

Not to say that the demon COULDN'T beat the Wraithlord, just that it'd be harder.

Rockerfella
08-10-2007, 18:18
I thought the whole point of the spirit stones was to protect an Eldar soul from the predations of the warp, ala Deamons etc? How could a deamon possess a spirit stone if it wasn't physically damaged?

Cheers!

Ashnari Doomsong
08-10-2007, 18:18
Greater Daemons are not your everyday Daemon. You'd be an idiot of untold dimensions to have a Greater Daemon invade a Wraithlord's Spirit Stone.
EDIT: Well, obviously they'd make a chink in it first...

Mr_Rose
08-10-2007, 18:30
OK, this basically boils down to how you go about things.

It is theoretically possible, but difficult.

Those of you arguing about warp-spiders gumming up the works, you are right since the Wraithlord must contain an infinity circuit in miniature if the spirit inside it is actually going to do anything like fire the weapons and suchlike.

Those of you arguing about rhinos and other metal tanks being possessed are also right, but are missing a step; the possession ritual whereby the vehicle is consecrated, the daemon is summoned and the two are bound to each other forever.

Thus, for a daemon to possess a Wraithlord, the construct would first have to be captured, then prepared ritually and the daemon bound to it. A keeper of Secrets can't simply walk up to a fully functioning WL and go "ha! you are mine now!" and instantly fuse to the thing, evicting/eating the Eldar spirit inside along the way; the thing is already sorta possessed, has its own immune system and, crucially, guns. It would take a lot for any daemon to get close enough....

Invader Nails
08-10-2007, 18:35
Exactly. It is possible, but the forces of Chaos would have to capture the thing FIRST, then do prep work before letting the demon have a go at it.

carl
08-10-2007, 18:39
A keeper of Secrets can't simply walk up to a fully functioning WL and go "ha! you are mine now!" and instantly fuse to the thing, evicting/eating the Eldar spirit inside along the way; the thing is already sorta possessed, has its own immune system and, crucially, guns. It would take a lot for any daemon to get close enough....

You could say the Wraithlord would be a thorn in the Deamons side if it tried, (sorry couldn't resist the pun).

I agree though. Possibble but extremly difficult and downright unlikliy.

Mr Zephy
08-10-2007, 18:47
Pretty much like many other things Chaos Space Marines do then.

00mrfish00
08-10-2007, 19:10
Eldar souls can go bad (dark eldar.)

MrBigMr
08-10-2007, 19:26
I thought the whole point of the spirit stones was to protect an Eldar soul from the predations of the warp, ala Deamons etc? How could a deamon possess a spirit stone if it wasn't physically damaged?
Tell that to 5+ save catsuits, AV12 tanks, 3+ save units made from material stronger than adamantium and 4+ armor battleships that have less hit points for their class and take critical on 4+ rather than 6+.

I always thought the idea was to stop the Eldar souls from entering the Warp where they would get surprise buttsecksed by Slaanesh and hir daemons. That doesn't mean a chaos lord can have a healthy breakfast of Spirit Stone-Os with virgin blood. Of course the stones might have wards against daemons to some extent, but that doesn't mean they're fool proof. Sooner or later they'll crack like everything else.


Those of you arguing about warp-spiders gumming up the works, you are right since the Wraithlord must contain an infinity circuit in miniature if the spirit inside it is actually going to do anything like fire the weapons and suchlike.
Craftworld infinity circuit. I've never read anything about every circuit having them. If the Lord carries a Craftworld scale circuit in its pocket space, then yes, it has spiders crawling.


Those of you arguing about rhinos and other metal tanks being possessed are also right, but are missing a step; the possession ritual whereby the vehicle is consecrated, the daemon is summoned and the two are bound to each other forever.
Or just expose the tank to decent amount of Chaos and sooner or later something pops in. And I doubt it's forever. Just use some anti-daemon weapon or put a hex on it and the creature will run sooner or later.

Idaan
08-10-2007, 19:48
So as to the Daemons touching the spirit stones. There is a story in Warhammer Compendium or Codex Imperialis about a great fight between forces of Iyanden and some cult of Slaanesh. It describes a battle between the Avatar of Khaine and Keeper of Secrets, but before that it goes into detail how said Keeper defiles body of Howling Banshee Shiera by devouring her Spirit Stone whole. He/she/it doesn't suffer the fate of Carcharoth after eating a Silmaril, so I think it's that bad for health. The major role of the spirit stones is to contain the spirit after death, not protect it from daemons.

Another thing is that there is no need to possess the spirit stone. Wraithbone itself is already capable of housing psychic potential. And as the whole body of Wraithlord is made from wraithbone, I think that it's possible for the daemon just to possess the body and be able to control it, even leaving the spirit stone intact, the soul in it trying to fight. Such thing already happened on a lot bigger scale: the whole Infinity Circuit of Craftworld Lugganath (or however you spell it under new Codex) was possessed by deamons from a malfunctioning gate.

Now it seems almost too easy to breach Eldar psychic defenses. Either this is another example of Eldar stupidity plaguing their fluff or they have some countermeasure we don't know of.

Mr Zephy
08-10-2007, 20:04
Warlocks with dispell scrolls? (Sorry)

Invader Nails
08-10-2007, 20:04
Eldar souls can go bad (dark eldar.)


Actually, Dark Eldar would probably be HARDER to corrupt than their Craftworld cousins, because they have no spirit stones and constantly live with Slaanesh slurping away at them. Thus they are more familiar with the whole scene, and more accustomed to fighting off demonic juju.

Please remember: Dark Eldar are NOT Chaos Eldar.

MrBigMr
08-10-2007, 21:01
Actually, Dark Eldar would probably be HARDER to corrupt than their Craftworld cousins, because they have no spirit stones and constantly live with Slaanesh slurping away at them. Thus they are more familiar with the whole scene, and more accustomed to fighting off demonic juju.
Or Slaanesh doesn't see any reason to give them daemons nor mutations. It think it would be cool for Dark Eldar to have daemonhosts or something like Ordo Malleus armies. They have those daemons locked into those small boxes that they use in combat (too lazy to check the codex).


Please remember: Dark Eldar are NOT Chaos Eldar.
But there are also Chaos Eldar. Even the Australian Medusa V campaign featured a Chaos Eldar special character.


Now it seems almost too easy to breach Eldar psychic defenses. Either this is another example of Eldar stupidity plaguing their fluff or they have some countermeasure we don't know of.
Or maybe it's just the fact that the Eldar are a dying race and won't catch a break no matter what.

Luthien
08-10-2007, 21:40
I'm gonna say no, a soulstone is supposed to be protection from a GOD, a mere daemon has no chance and an Arch-Daemon still has very little

Noserenda
08-10-2007, 23:48
Soulstones ARENT protection from a god! Theyre just a simple way of stashing the soul in Realspace where a daemon actually has to come up to the thing and mess around with it as opposed to a singular soul trying to avoid a Gods notice in its living room...

There are plenty of example of Daemons munching down on tasty Eldar souls with Gay abandon the second they get the stones without any particular bad effects (For the Daemon).

So, assuming you can "Subdue" a Wraithlord itll be ripe for possession, and you get a tasty Eldar soul to sacrifice too.

As for speed of possession, can anyone point to an example where Possession didnt involve rituals/being a crap psyker/voluntary/being an idiot with a daemon weapon? Because im pretty sure the only one Wraithlords in any case would be eligable for would be the first of the above...

Oh and most importantly:

It would look cool

Biomass Denial
09-10-2007, 01:26
If a demon can inhabit a sword and make it bite its owner im pretty sure a wraithlord wouldnt be too hard.

jhon
09-10-2007, 03:20
'first i going to chow half of your soul , but i save the other half to be my play thing , than i will take over your plastic body . we will have many happy time.. together. so my lovey toy pet , do you wana do bond or perfer candle . but anyway , let us praint a picture with your borther and sister's blood just to warm youre up with .... brb hahahhaha'

Idaan
09-10-2007, 14:25
I'm gonna say no, a soulstone is supposed to be protection from a GOD, a mere daemon has no chance and an Arch-Daemon still has very little

Not when said god tries actively to reach the soul. The spirit stone is build to catch a soul after death, preventing its transfer into the free Warp where it can be devoured, thus not giving Slaanesh a chance to claim it. Basically it "saves" a Warp potential (ie soul) on a material object. But if Slaanesh tries to destroy or devour the essence, there's nothing to stop him.

And to repeat, there are examples in the established fluff of daemons touching or even eating spirit stones.


But there are also Chaos Eldar. Even the Australian Medusa V campaign featured a Chaos Eldar special character.
Now I'm interested. Where can I read about it? It seems to be the only mention of Chaos Eldar since WD127.


Or maybe it's just the fact that the Eldar are a dying race and won't catch a break no matter what.One thing is living in a universe that is a harsh mistress, another is constructing warrior-constructs that actually welcome daemonic possession. I was talking about some anti-daemonic obstacles built into the wraithbone, similar to warp spiders, but on a smaller scale (warp leucocytes anyone?;))

MrBigMr
09-10-2007, 14:48
Now I'm interested. Where can I read about it? It seems to be the only mention of Chaos Eldar since WD127.
Sorry, it was GW Canada:
http://ca.games-workshop.com/Wrath/Story/Saaremaa/home.htm
http://ca.games-workshop.com/Wrath/Hobby/daemon.htm

I just can't read those names in that campaign. Saaremaa (http://www.saaremaa.ee/eng/) and Kemi (http://www.kemi.fi/english/index.html) II just make me laugh too hard. I refuce to believe it's all just a coincidence. There has to be some sick Finn in the mix somewhere.


One thing is living in a universe that is a harsh mistress, another is constructing warrior-constructs that actually welcome daemonic possession. I was talking about some anti-daemonic obstacles built into the wraithbone, similar to warp spiders, but on a smaller scale (warp leucocytes anyone?;))
Well, taken that the Wraithlords and guard was made to fight the Necrons, anti-daemonincs propably weren't big on the agenda list back then. Might as well ponder why Guardians can't get better armor when 90% of guns just rip them apart.

Kriegschmidt
09-10-2007, 16:35
i think im going to have to go ahead and say no a daemon couldnt. Firstly because of the warp spiders, but secondly because the soul of the wraithlord is enclosed within the spirt stone which a daemon cannot touch unless it is broken. Without the spirit stone, the construct of wraithbone is simply a lifeless lump of...well bone...with about as much life as a rock. I believe that daemons can possess rhinos etc because they have a machine spirit which can be corrupted and possessed...but a lifeless lump? id say no

So you've actually inadvertantly said:

"yes it could and here's how: break the spirit stone, gives the daemon access to control the soul. From there it manipulates the warp spiderlings" :)

Besides, if you can have daemon swords, which is just a daemon bound to an inanimate metal object, you can definitely bind a daemon to a living lump of bone. And anyone who says otherwise deserves death by mao-mao :D

zimmn
09-10-2007, 23:14
well im going to play devils advocate and say "deffinatly Not".

Wraithlords are powered by Soul Stones and Constructed from Wraith Bone - which iirc contains tiny Spiders that feed off warp enegry - kind of like white blood cells in a human body. as they have no 'soul' to start with, then there wouldnt be a way of taking over a Wraith lord.

i happened to agree with Pookie on this one, the wrathlords have no soul and can not be possessed, but I think a daemon can be trapped inside just like inside a weapon?

Kriegschmidt
10-10-2007, 08:41
Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go pray to my electric toothbrush to soothe it's cavity-fighting anima.

Sigged! :D

Doesn't one of the codices (possibly DA) explain that the Machine Spirit does exist but is simply an artificial intelligence installed into various vehicles as a support control/backup, etc.?

LexxBomb
10-10-2007, 14:26
I would have to say that given the Talismans of Vaul and Wraith Lords:
a) derive their power inthe exact same way amd
b) basicly use the same tech then
Yes a Wraith Lord could be possessed but it wouldn't be useful enough to warrant it.
1) in order to possess it you would have to come into contact with the spirtit stone
2) if you could come into the spirit stone then shorly the deamons current host is more then enough for what it needs. basicly the payout doesn't warrant the expenditure
3) why go for a Wraith Lord when you could get a titan or super heavy vehicle

Mr Zephy
10-10-2007, 16:18
Because a few squads of space marines could incapacitate a wraithlord, and then give it to the demon, and titans are rarer.

Imperialis_Dominatus
10-10-2007, 16:26
Because a few squads of space marines could incapacitate a wraithlord, and then give it to the demon, and titans are rarer.

Not to mention, especially for Slaanesh, corrupting a piece of Eldar technology would be fairly satisfying.