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Rico
11-10-2007, 13:43
Dark Angels, along with the Smurfs, have always been a favoured Chapter of mine. I've been looking to include some as part of my Epic army and was reading up on the fluff regarding the Supreme Grand Master of the Unforgiven.

I noted that they choose their successor upon their death. However, given that they alone know the full truth of the history of the Chapter, how does the new Chapter Master get to know about this given the old incumbent is dead.

Does he leave a DvD recording ("Given you're watching this recording, I will now tell all you need to know..."). Or is there the 'Dummies guide to the Truth of the Fallen'? I can't imagine that there would be written recording, which makes me question how history is passed on to the next generation.

Appreciate your thoughts,

Rico

Witchfire
11-10-2007, 16:32
i would guess at the recording, or maybe all the members of the inner circle know a bit of the whole truth like each holding one piece of the jigsaw puzzle, impossible to see the whole picture without all the pieces and telling the new chapter master the one piece of info they were trusted with so he can build the whole puzzle

chrome_ghoul
11-10-2007, 17:58
My best guess would be that a record is kept safe by the watchers in the dark, who will only reveal it to a new grand master.

eldaran
11-10-2007, 19:09
The old Grand master appears to the new one in a dream and says: "Yo Bro, here's what'cha need to get 'bout the Fallen..."...

I agre with the Watchers in the Dark theory

Rico
11-10-2007, 19:19
The old Grand master appears to the new one in a dream and says: "Yo Bro, here's what'cha need to get 'bout the Fallen..."...

I agre with the Watchers in the Dark theory

Lol, I was having a thought of this, a la Star Wars style; "No Sammael, I am your father".

Never really thought of the watchers as the passer on's of knowledge, albiet they seem aware of the Lion being encased deep in the Rock.

Still, maybe tradition dictates the new Supreme grand Master to enter the sacred tower where Luthor is housed. Perhaps some sort of record is kept there.

sulla
11-10-2007, 19:53
My best guess would be that a record is kept safe by the watchers in the dark, who will only reveal it to a new grand master. That would be the most cinematic... The new big boss cloistering himself in his chambers and the watchers silently entering and presenting him with all the horrifying records of the ancient shame...

Then when he's reading it they can zzapp his R2 unit and steal it to sell on some sandy backwater. ;)

Nazguire
12-10-2007, 07:41
Lol, I was having a thought of this, a la Star Wars style; "No Sammael, I am your father".

Never really thought of the watchers as the passer on's of knowledge, albiet they seem aware of the Lion being encased deep in the Rock.

Still, maybe tradition dictates the new Supreme grand Master to enter the sacred tower where Luthor is housed. Perhaps some sort of record is kept there.

I thought that all Dark Angels Supreme Grand Masters (e.g Azrael) had to enter the chamber where Luther is and interrogate him as part of an initiation test. Which would ensure they learn the full picture. I'm assuming that the second-in-command and his cohorts would know all but the tiniest details of the Fallen anyway and upon ascension to head honcho status would read some magnificent tome presented by the senior Interrogator-Chaplains that would illuminate him to the full plight of his endeavours.

Vaulkhar
12-10-2007, 08:05
It's not quite a test, more a hobby for the SGM (at least, that's the impression I got from Angels of Death. Besides, what would the Chapter do if the chosen one flunked?).

Though I imagine that the dungeon containing Luther also has some other titbits of information in it and it's worth noting that the only way in is to use the Sword of Secrets as a key.

Nazguire
12-10-2007, 08:16
It's not quite a test, more a hobby for the SGM (at least, that's the impression I got from Angels of Death. Besides, what would the Chapter do if the chosen one flunked?).

Though I imagine that the dungeon containing Luther also has some other titbits of information in it and it's worth noting that the only way in is to use the Sword of Secrets as a key.

Well perhaps not test, as no Supreme Grand Master has succeeded in getting Luthor to repent and tell the Chapter where the Lion is (I can just imagine the scrambling to find the Primarch if he did say)

ryng_sting
12-10-2007, 18:25
Only the Supreme Grand Master has access to Luther's cell...but he's not the only member of the Inner Circle who knows it's there.

Like the idea of the Watchers having an input, though. Picture it. The last SGM's snuffed it. Azrael's summoned to his private quarters. Video crackles into life. Static. The hooded face of a watcher in the dark turns and smiles:

'Hello Azrael. We want to play a game...'

chrome_ghoul
12-10-2007, 18:50
Only the Supreme Grand Master has access to Luther's cell...but he's not the only member of the Inner Circle who knows it's there.



Erm, actually he is......

pg. 46 DA codex states that "he [Azrael] alone is privy to the greatest secret of all. At the very heart of the rock is a cell.......et cetera"

No member of the innner circle knows that Luther is alive and held prisoner. I don't buy the idea of a new grand master being given a tome of secrets by the interrogator chaplains either. Sorry, but Azrael alone (Not counting Lion El'Jonson, and maybe the Emperor and Cypher.) knows about Luther's cell. No inner circle members, no chaplains, nobody.

It does raise a question about the book of salvation though. Is luthers name in there? Have any of the chief librarians of the DA checked?
If they have, they might suspect the truth?
For that matter, do the DA have the name of EVERY fallen angel? could there be falln that the chapter has forgotten, or were ommited from the legions original records?

Vaulkhar
12-10-2007, 19:13
As far as the Book goes, the answer is probably yes. It'd be a simple matter to go through the Legion's muster roll and tick off all the Marines accounted for. Anyone left would be classed as one of the Fallen.

Is Luther's name in there? Probably. The original Inner Circle - the loyalist Marines who lived through the Battle of Caliban - included those who found him in his broken state. That knowledge would have been gradually confined to the SGM, but the entire original IC knew. They probably have him ticked off as 'Captured M.31' and let today's Librarians make the assumption that he died shortly thereafter.

Rico
13-10-2007, 09:21
As far as the Book goes, the answer is probably yes. It'd be a simple matter to go through the Legion's muster roll and tick off all the Marines accounted for. Anyone left would be classed as one of the Fallen.

Is Luther's name in there? Probably. The original Inner Circle - the loyalist Marines who lived through the Battle of Caliban - included those who found him in his broken state. That knowledge would have been gradually confined to the SGM, but the entire original IC knew. They probably have him ticked off as 'Captured M.31' and let today's Librarians make the assumption that he died shortly thereafter.

Regarding the book, I thought that names were added, often using the blood of the fallen themselves. The current codex confirms that those name in the book are fallen who have been found and either repented or been 'saved' through execution.

LexxBomb
13-10-2007, 11:14
I was under the impression that the Grand Master of Librarians leads the new Supreme Grand Master to luthors cell and tell him to insert the sword of secrets into the door.

chrome_ghoul
16-10-2007, 21:47
Regarding the book, I thought that names were added, often using the blood of the fallen themselves. The current codex confirms that those name in the book are fallen who have been found and either repented or been 'saved' through execution.

Thats what I thought as well, although I don't see any reason why captured fallen would not be recorded in a similar book. If any librarian started asking to many questions they could always be told the explaination is not for them. If they keep asking, well, I guess thats a sign of heresy what with marines being conditioned to be unquestioning killers.

chrome_ghoul
16-10-2007, 21:48
I was under the impression that the Grand Master of Librarians leads the new Supreme Grand Master to luthors cell and tell him to insert the sword of secrets into the door.

Not sure about that one, can't remember reading anything like that. I doubt anyone other that the Grand master and the watchers know how to find Luthers cell.

Vaulkhar
17-10-2007, 08:33
DA Librarians are automatically inducted into the Deathwing as part of their training (Codex Angels of Death). The 'asking the right questions' route is how Chaplains become Interrogator-Chaplains. According to the current Codex, a Chaplain who works out the truth of the Fall unaided is either brought into the ranks of the Interrogators or 'dies heroically in battle'...even if the enemy are several systems away at the time.

Getting back to the Book of Salvation, sorry, I should have been clearer. book lists all captured Fallen. Other sources list all DAs on Caliban at the time of the Fall. Cross-reference the two and you have a decent idea of how many skeletons need to be stuffed back into the closet.

ryng_sting
17-10-2007, 21:42
Erm, actually he is......

pg. 46 DA codex states that "he [Azrael] alone is privy to the greatest secret of all. At the very heart of the rock is a cell.......et cetera"


I'm afraid you will find that Sapphon, the current Grand Master of Chaplains, knows of it as well. From Sapphon's words to the Fallen whose interrogation he sat in on, it seems a few Inner Circle apothecaries might also know of its existence. Only the SGM has access to it, however.

The Grand Master of Chaplains also has a list in the DA's reclusium. It was a role-call of some kind dated immediately prior to the fall of Caliban, and it lists the name of two hundred and fifty DAs stationed on Caliban. They GM knows the list isn't complete, but it's better than sweet FA.

LexxBomb
18-10-2007, 02:01
thats like what amaximum of 1/8 of the DA on Caliban at the fall

oh and regarding Luthors cell... isn't Astelians cell next to it.

BrotherAdso
18-10-2007, 03:54
Not sure about Astellan, but I did read the old Angels of Death codex too many times on the ol' golden throne.

More or less the upper circle (master librarian, grand-master, master interrogator-chaplain) seem to know of the betrayal and subsequent events. However, there is no evidence that anyone but Lion himself or the first GM HAD to know that Luthor survived and was imprisoned. Most of the fleeing Fallen wouldn't know, and the other Angels didn't arrive on the scene until all was well over.

The idea of the Sword of Secrets living up to its name makes the most sense to me. Upon recieving the sword, the new Grand Master becomes the only one to know its final and most frightful use -- as a KEY. Really fits with the image of the head of a burdened chapter wrestling alone, burdened with the one secret greater than the one he shares with his bretheren.

-Adso

Tehkonrad
18-10-2007, 08:43
but.....how do you become a watcher?

on topic that sword of secrets thing is new to me (algthough i know its official) and it slightly cheeses me off as my chapters symbol is a key and their leader has a keyblade-ish weapon called the ultimate key which is key to....something

Vaulkhar
18-10-2007, 09:41
Well, the principal qualification appears to be being four feet tall and immune to all forms of violence. The interview is probably conducted by a Devastator squad at twenty paces...

chrome_ghoul
18-10-2007, 20:44
I'm afraid you will find that Sapphon, the current Grand Master of Chaplains, knows of it as well. From Sapphon's words to the Fallen whose interrogation he sat in on, it seems a few Inner Circle apothecaries might also know of its existence. Only the SGM has access to it, however.

The Grand Master of Chaplains also has a list in the DA's reclusium. It was a role-call of some kind dated immediately prior to the fall of Caliban, and it lists the name of two hundred and fifty DAs stationed on Caliban. They GM knows the list isn't complete, but it's better than sweet FA.


It would make sense that one or two apothecaries know about Luther. Someone has to put him back together to be tortured again I guess. It's been years since I have read angels of death, I had forgotten Sapphon even existed. How did he learn about Luther?

The watchers in the dark are kind of a mystery, "Descent of angels" hints that they are some kind of warp creature related to the beasts of caliban. They have been seen with several DA heroes throughout the centuries, but don't take part in any combat. They sometimes cary equipment for their "masters". In descent of angels they can sense latent psychic ability in one of the main characters. I don't think it is possble for anybody to become a watcher in the dark, they seem to be a breed of creature all there own.