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Bortus
12-10-2007, 21:45
Do a unit of Bulls need to roll to hit for impact hits?

ebonicmaser
12-10-2007, 22:03
negative you auto hit with the number of impacts you rolled, you need to only wound

theunwantedbeing
12-10-2007, 22:19
The clue is in the name.
Impact hit if you've already hit why would you need to try to roll to see if you hit?

Bortus
12-10-2007, 23:31
Yes, yes, I don't play Ogres and I just had to make sure is all. Thank you guys.

T10
13-10-2007, 00:37
negative you auto hit with the number of impacts you rolled, you need to only wound

The Bull Charge does not result in a random number of hits.

-T10

Gorbad Ironclaw
13-10-2007, 06:56
If the ogres opponent is smart it usually result in zero hits. Sadly, it's really easy to negate the bullcharge.

Revlid
13-10-2007, 09:44
If the ogres opponent is smart it usually result in zero hits. Sadly, it's really easy to negate the bullcharge.

Which leads to a delightful Catch-22 with Ranged Units; To make me give up my Bull Charge they need to give up their (more damaging, imo) Stand and Shoot.

T10
13-10-2007, 09:45
If I've got the rules for the Bull Charge right, the unit must move at least half its move during the charge. It's a bit like how you work out Stand & Shoot, just in favour of the Ogres.

The Ogre unit can in many cases purposefully move longer during the charge than necessary, allowing it to pick up that extra "mileage". Also, each 1" of movement through terrain counts as 2", so skirting along the edge of a forest during the charge is another way of increasing the "distance moved".

I am right, am I not?

-T10

Lorcryst
13-10-2007, 10:30
I'd have to borrow the army book to re-read the wording of the rule, but I think that's the actual distance moved by the Ogres that counts ... using terrain to "artificially" increase the distance moved seems like a sneaky tactic, but if the wording just says "must move at least 6 inches during their charge", it would work ...

Quite a scary prospect for my Night Goblins ...

theunwantedbeing
13-10-2007, 13:14
Charging through very difficult terrain for say.... 2" results in you requiring 8" of movement.
You havent moved 8" though, you've only moved 2" so wont get the bull charge.
Difficult terrain would only require 4" to go through 2" of terrain but the rule still applies that you only went 2", you just had to use up more movement move that 2".

So you cant use that tactic.

Anyway, the whole unit has to move so wheeling through a bit of terrain wont allow the whole unit so you dont get the bull charge as it requires the whole unit, not just the far models moving through terrain.

EvC
13-10-2007, 14:10
Ah, but when wheeling, the entire unit counts as moving as far as the outside model, so the inside model would still have moved far enough. Huzzah for rules semantics...

Gorbad Ironclaw
13-10-2007, 14:36
Which leads to a delightful Catch-22 with Ranged Units; To make me give up my Bull Charge they need to give up their (more damaging, imo) Stand and Shoot.


Helps you bugger all against anything else tho.

T10
13-10-2007, 14:58
So you cant use that tactic.

It really depends on wether the Bull Charge requires that you move a certain distance or wether it is merely more than half the charge move. Could someone with access to the Ogre Kingdom book verify this?

Regardless, "every inch moved across difficult terrain counts as 2 inches" (p 16), so even if the unit is required to move a minimum of 6" to get the impact hits, moving 3" through difficult terrain qualifies.

-T10

Atrahasis
13-10-2007, 15:14
'on any turn when all models in that unit charge 6" or more'

blurred
15-10-2007, 08:53
Delightfully vague.

Isn't there a rule which states that all charges must be moved with the shortest route possible?

Atrahasis
15-10-2007, 09:58
Delightfully vague.It isn't vague at all. It might not say what you want it to say, but it's pretty clear what it actually says.


Isn't there a rule which states that all charges must be moved with the shortest route possible?No.

warlord hack'a
15-10-2007, 11:50
that was 6th edition, now you just have to move in a straight line and may wheel )or pivot) only nce during this move and only when that brings more models into contact with the enemy.

Atrahasis
15-10-2007, 12:18
Even in 6th you could deliberately charge further than you needed to for a so-called "tactical" charge.

T10
15-10-2007, 13:04
It isn't vague at all. It might not say what you want it to say, but it's pretty clear what it actually says.

While this clears the potential issue with overrun/pursuit into fresh enemy (where the "charge move" is based on a dice roll), it still requires some interpretation.

Is a charge that takes the unit through 3" of open terrain and 2" of difficult terrain a charge of 5" or a charge of 7"?

In my opinion it is a charge of 7" since the rules for difficult terrain tells us 1" of movement through it counts as 2" of movement.

Also, how would you factor in the free alignment move into this?

-T10

DeathlessDraich
15-10-2007, 14:16
In my opinion it is a charge of 7" since the rules for difficult terrain tells us 1" of movement through it counts as 2" of movement.

Also, how would you factor in the free alignment move into this?

-T10

1) A Bull charge requires that “all models charge 6” or more”. Movement over difficult and very difficult terrain "counts as double" the “actual distance” travelled. pg 16 Therefore the doubling over difficult terrain is ignored and does not count towards the Bull charge, since actual distance = distance charged = the distance measured.

2) When moving chargers, the requirements are i) not more than a single wheel and ii)this must maximise models in base contact.
The Ogre unit cannot time its wheel to avoid maximising models.
It can however choose the longest path that fulfils both requirements.

Since all models must move 6", I doubt whether choosing a slightly different path would increase the distance by more than a fraction of an inch.

3) Free alignment does not count as distance charged.

Gorbad Ironclaw
15-10-2007, 14:30
that was 6th edition, now you just have to move in a straight line and may wheel )or pivot) only nce during this move and only when that brings more models into contact with the enemy.


This is not at all what the rules says. You can wheel as you like, as long as it brings the most models possible into combat.

It was the same in 6th, it's just been made a bit more clear in 7th(not least with a FAQ answer).

blurred
15-10-2007, 21:01
It isn't vague at all. It might not say what you want it to say, but it's pretty clear what it actually says.

God I hate your posts. :rolleyes: No, I don't play OK and no I don't play against them that often so I don't have a preference in this matter. And just as T10 pointed out, it is vague.

T10
15-10-2007, 21:58
3) Free alignment does not count as distance charged.

I am curious as to how you came to this conclusion.

-T10

theunwantedbeing
15-10-2007, 22:04
I'm assuming he got it off page 21 & 22 of the rulebook.

Ganymede
15-10-2007, 23:16
Even in 6th you could deliberately charge further than you needed to for a so-called "tactical" charge.

In 6th, the rules could be read this way, but they also could be read in a way that prohibited tactical wheeling.

In 7th, it is clear that tactical wheeling is allowed.

Atrahasis
15-10-2007, 23:57
The wording between the two editions is identical, with the exception that 7th specifies that models from both sides must be maximised.

EvC
16-10-2007, 00:01
I am curious as to how you came to this conclusion.

Even without page 21 and 22, ALL Ogres must have charged more than 6", and to make the charge at least one model must have already made contact, so it doesn't matter if the outside models get moved several more inches, they wouldn't be able to claim the Bull Impact...

T10
16-10-2007, 06:44
Not necessarilly:

If the unit first wheels to the left and makes contact (1) and then makes its free wheel right to align (2), then the latter greatly affects how far each individual model has moved.

-T10

Atrahasis
16-10-2007, 10:42
The free align hasn't helped for bull charge there though - the determining bull is the one that makes contact first, and he does not move at all in the free align, he merely pivots.

EvC
16-10-2007, 11:43
I can see what T10 means, but yeah, the aligning wheel is free, so it doesn't matter that the outside Bull might've been wheeled another 7" or whatever, it won't count for the inner Bull.

T10
16-10-2007, 13:52
What?

Ok, lets say the unit moves as follows:

1. The unit moves 4" forward.
2. The unit wheels 4" left and contacts the target unit.
3. The unit wheels 4" right and aligns to the target.

Focusing for the moment on the outside models, I am sure you agree that they have both moved 8". And don't give me any Bull (he he)!

-T10

Atrahasis
16-10-2007, 14:49
They had all moved 8" before the free align.

Kadrium
16-10-2007, 15:27
As long as any single model in the ogre unit has moved 6 inches or more before the ogre unit makes contact with the enemy unit, the entire ogre unit gets it's impact hits.

DeathlessDraich
16-10-2007, 15:55
I am curious as to how you came to this conclusion.
-T10

"this wheel counts as the total distance charged" "charge distance is halved" "automatically aligned" etc etc.

I regard free alignment as one of the 7 types of Warhammer movement which does not constitute 'movement'.

I take it you don't?


Not necessarilly:
If the unit first wheels to the left and makes contact (1) and then makes its free wheel right to align (2), then the latter greatly affects how far each individual model has moved.


Referring to your diagram

Distance moved for the purposes of a Bull charge = 0, if free alignment is not regarded as distance charged because **

If you do include the distance moved during free alignment, distance charged = arc 1(or arc 2) but *not* arc 1 + arc 2. **

**The model moving the shortest charge distance has to be used for Bull charges.
If 2 models of a Ogre unit moves 6.1" and the third moves 5.9", I'm sure you will agree that there is no Bull charge.


They had all moved 8" before the free align.

Not all. They have moved 4" for the purposes of the Bull charge i.e. the model, with the shortest charge distance moved, is used. The model at the centre moves 0" (or a fraction of an inch) while wheeling.



As long as any single model in the ogre unit has moved 6 inches or more before the ogre unit makes contact with the enemy unit, the entire ogre unit gets it's impact hits.

The requirement is *all* models must move 6" or more.

Atrahasis
16-10-2007, 16:16
Ok, lets say the unit moves as follows:

1. The unit moves 4" forward.
2. The unit wheels 4" left and contacts the target unit.
3. The unit wheels 4" right and aligns to the target.



Not all. They have moved 4" for the purposes of the Bull charge i.e. the model, with the shortest charge distance moved, is used. The model at the centre moves 0" (or a fraction of an inch) while wheeling.

They had all moved 8" before the free align.

Kadrium
16-10-2007, 16:39
The requirement is *all* models must move 6" or more.

And all the models in the unit count as having moved as far as the one that moved the furthest. What's the problem?

Ganymede
16-10-2007, 17:14
The wording between the two editions is identical, with the exception that 7th specifies that models from both sides must be maximised.


6th edition never benefitted from a clarification of the topic in their Q&A. 7th did.

EvC
16-10-2007, 17:37
Well, your statement was that one single ogre must have moved 6" or more for the Bull Charge, when the rules actually say ALL must have moved that far. That's one problem, but not THE problem ;)

The models do indeed count as having moved as far as the outside model, but the outside model's alignment was free, i.e. doesn't count for movement.

Kadrium
16-10-2007, 19:23
Lets try fun pictures:



EEEEE
EEEEE <------- enemy unit
EEEEE
EEEEE OOO <--- Ogres

In this case, if the ogres make a 4 inch wheel to the left and then charge forward 3 inches, they all get the bull charge. Even though the inside model only moved 3 inches and a little from the wheel, the outside model moved 7 inches, thus the unit moved 7 inches as a whole, and the bull charge is granted.



EEEEE
EEEEE <---- Enemy Unit
EEEEE
EEEEE
EEEEE Oc <-- Ogres a b and c
Ob
Oa

Lets say in this case the ogre unit charges straigt toward the enemy block, and it takes 5 inches of movement until ogre A contacts the enemy block. Then the unit is wheeled 2 inches so that ogres B and C align with the flank of the enemy unit. In this case, there is no bullcharge, as the wheel is free movement and does not count. The unit only moved 5 inches.

This is why I said before:


As long as any single model in the ogre unit has moved 6 inches or more before the ogre unit makes contact with the enemy unit, the entire ogre unit gets it's impact hits.

T10
16-10-2007, 21:27
I regard free alignment as one of the 7 types of Warhammer movement which does not constitute 'movement'.

I take it you don't?



I would regard it as a free wheel that the unit is permitted to make regardless of wether this means the unit thus moves further than allowed. I can't say I buy the argument that it's "not movement". It's a wheel and a wheel involves movement.

I don't see a difference between "charging 6" or more" and "moving 6" or more during the charge".

-T10

EvC
16-10-2007, 21:29
But the imprecision of your statement means it's simply not true as an absolute, kadrium. Consider a situation where a unit of Bulls charges directly forward at the enemy, but one ogre model must move through a forest while the other ogres do not. He may end up having moved 10" before reaching the enemy, whilst the others might reach it after moving only 5", and so they don't get the impact hits. Hence, it is NOT any single model, it is every model. Exactly as stated.

Atrahasis
16-10-2007, 21:30
The alignment move is not a wheel, it is just "alignment".

T10
16-10-2007, 21:36
Lets say in this case the ogre unit charges straigt toward the enemy block, and it takes 5 inches of movement until ogre A contacts the enemy block. Then the unit is wheeled 2 inches so that ogres B and C align with the flank of the enemy unit. In this case, there is no bullcharge, as the wheel is free movement and does not count. The unit only moved 5 inches.

This is why I said before:

That is ridiculous. The situation, I mean, not necessarilly your statement. In your example you are disregarding the free wheel as being movement.

An almost identical situation is for the Ogres to move straight ahead towards the target unit (less than 5"), stop just shy of contact, wheel to face the target (2") and then move into contact (more than 0"). For a total of about 7".

These to virtually identical movement patterns apparently result movement that differ by 2". Unless you consider the free wheel to be movement also, in which case they are the same.

-T10

Kadrium
16-10-2007, 21:37
But the imprecision of your statement means it's simply not true as an absolute, kadrium. Consider a situation where a unit of Bulls charges directly forward at the enemy, but one ogre model must move through a forest while the other ogres do not. He may end up having moved 10" before reaching the enemy, whilst the others might reach it after moving only 5", and so they don't get the impact hits. Hence, it is NOT any single model, it is every model. Exactly as stated.

In this case of rough terrain, the ogre model moving through the forest has used up 10 inches of movement, but not moved more than 6 inches. Any one of the ogre does have to move 6+ actual inches for a bullcharge to be granted to the unit as a whole. I'm fully willing to conceed that additional movement expended for moving through rough terrain does not qualify as movement required for a bull charge so I will amend my previous statement to:

As long as any single model in the ogre unit has physically moved 6 inches or more before the ogre unit makes contact with the enemy unit, not counting extra move consumed by rough terrain, the entire ogre unit gets it's impact hits.

Do we agree on that?

T10
16-10-2007, 21:44
The alignment move is not a wheel, it is just "alignment".

That is true, it doesn't say "the unit wheels to align".

I am pretty sure that most enforce restrictions similar to that of a wheel, meaning that they don't "align" by sliding the units right and left :) but "wheel" the unit forwards about the point of contact.

Regardless, this move allows (and may result in) some models in the unit moving further than their charge move, and thus moving further than others in the unit.

-T10

T10
16-10-2007, 21:47
As long as any single model in the ogre unit has physically moved 6 inches or more before the ogre unit makes contact with the enemy unit, not counting extra move consumed by rough terrain, the entire ogre unit gets it's impact hits.

Do we agree on that?

Sorry. If there is one thing that the Bull Charge rules is clear on, it is that the minimum movement applies to all the models in the unit. "Any single model" doesn't cut it.

I'd rather say:

If each model in the ogre unit moves at least 6" during the charge then the unit gets its impact hits.

Terrain: It appears that all agree that it is the distance moved and not the movement spent that is important. While a 4" movement through a difficult terrain counts as 8", it is still only a distance of 4".

Free alignment: While the charge is considered to be successful once the chargers have made contact, the rules do make special mention of the fact the free alignment may result in some (as in: individual models within the unit) moving further than allowed (and also: further than other models in the unit).

-T10

-T10

EvC
16-10-2007, 21:50
As long as any single model in the ogre unit has physically moved 6 inches or more before the ogre unit makes contact with the enemy unit, not counting extra move consumed by rough terrain, the entire ogre unit gets it's impact hits.

Excepting other exceptions (There's a lot of overly complex and conflicting rules out there ;) ), then sure. I just don't think it's entirely sensible to try and state the rule in a way that makes the reader have to make an additional logical induction ("All ogres must have moved as far as the model that makes contact") before they get it... because then you invariably have to explain the addtional requirement, as you demonstrate in the next post after mine :D

Kadrium
16-10-2007, 21:52
Sorry. If there is one thing that the Bull Charge rules is clear on, it is that the minimum movement applies to all the models in the unit. "Any single model" doesn't cut it.

-T10

*sigh*

All the models in the unit count as having moved as far as the model that moved the furthest.

T10
16-10-2007, 22:02
*sigh*

All the models in the unit count as having moved as far as the model that moved the furthest.

They also "counts as" moving 2" for each 1" of movement through terrain. It may be I'm mixing apples and pears here, but as I see you either need to look at the actual distance moved (by each model, qf. the Bull Charge rules) or the movement used to get there.

It doesn't make sense to say: This model has moved an actual distance of 4", but it also counts as having moved 3" because that's how far the unit wheeled.

-T10

DeathlessDraich
17-10-2007, 10:23
I think I understand why Kadrium is insistent.

"A unit moves, as far, or as much as, the model moving furthest."
The distance moved by an Ogre (or any RnF) *unit* is equal to the maximum distance moved by a model.

However Bull charge rules do not refer to the *unit's* movement but the distance moved by all models.

Commodus Leitdorf
17-10-2007, 11:37
Under 7th edition rules a unit MUST use all the movement it has avaliable in order to maximise the number of units in combat. Therefore a unit of bulls only 5 inches away on an angle must use the remainder of its movement (the remaining 7 inches) to wheel and my not simply rely on the free alignment move. The only instance where a unit may rely on the free alignment move is if the unit in question requires all of its movement to touch the unit being charged (in this insatnce the bulls need all 12 inches to reach a unit).

-Commodus

T10
17-10-2007, 13:22
That's crazy talk.

-T10

Gabacho Mk.II
17-10-2007, 15:03
If each model in the ogre unit moves at least 6" during the charge then the unit gets its impact hits.

Terrain: It appears that all agree that it is the distance moved and not the movement spent that is important. While a 4" movement through a difficult terrain counts as 8", it is still only a distance of 4".



Totally agreed.

A unit must indeed move (not count as having moved) the minimum 6"+ in order to get the impact hits. Any other interpretation (such as moving through difficult ground and expending more movement, but not actually moving more than 6", is rather bending the spirit of the rule IMO.


This is how our club interprets it, just to add another voice to this situation. [and yes, this actual situation/question had come up over a year ago, and became rather heated for the duration of the battle in question]

Gabacho Mk.II
17-10-2007, 15:05
All the models in the unit count as having moved as far as the model that moved the furthest.



But Kadrium, count as having moved is not the same as must move a minimum of 6".


This is where you are losing us.

Kadrium
17-10-2007, 17:19
Actually it says they have to charge a min of 6". :P

If a unit charges you, and physically moves less than half their charge distance, but it's through difficult terrain, don't you get stand and shoot because they count as charging over half that distance?

Isn't this sort of the same thing? Since the rule says they must "charge" that distance? Just a thought.

Infallius_Daemonium
17-10-2007, 17:27
I play Ogre Kingdoms, and while I do not have many battles under my Gut Plate, I don't think the rules were intended to be used in that way. Of course, my perspective is based more on what makes sense than how I can interpret a vague rule.

My understanding is that the Ogres need a certain distance of ground to reach the speeds they need to cause Impact Hits. How would them turning and twisting give them that momentum? That would just slow them down if anything. The same principle applies to difficult terrain- how the heck would one Ogre being slowed down make them move fast enough to cause Impact? So, I think that all Ogres in the unit would need to be 6 inches or more away from the enemy unit before charging, despite what fancy dance the Ogres do to get there.

I for one play to have fun, not to win, so if something doesn't make logical sense in a battle, I probably won't do it or be playing someone who would. Maybe I'm wrong, but at least my Ogres care more about running at the enemy than making sure they reach their "inch quota" first.

Kadrium
17-10-2007, 18:29
My understanding is that the Ogres need a certain distance of ground to reach the speeds they need to cause Impact Hits. How would them turning and twisting give them that momentum? That would just slow them down if anything. The same principle applies to difficult terrain- how the heck would one Ogre being slowed down make them move fast enough to cause Impact?

Don't get me wrong here, I agree with this. This is what "makes sense" and "seemes realistic". Unfortunately, that's not what always determins the rules in Warhammer.

I'm just asking questions about the rules themselves, not if they make sense, realistically.

Such as, if I charge through woods for 2 inches and then 3 inches of open ground, how far have I charged? 5 inches? then I cant bull-charge, but can you stand and shoot?

theunwantedbeing
17-10-2007, 18:51
They can stand and shoot as you've used up more than 6" of movement to reach them.
So they unit has had enough time to draw its weapons and subsequently fire them.(and the unit thats standing and shooting has the range to hit the ogres)

The ogres have only moved 5" and havent built up the required momentum to cause impact hits.

He Who Is Him
17-10-2007, 21:26
The rule is based on the idea of these hulking brutes working up enough momentum to slam their large frames into something, causing damage. If they are moving slow due to terrain, they're not going to be able to build up the speed. So, while traveling 1" through woods may count as 2" of your movement, it wouldn't count towards building up speed and momentum, if anything it would hurt it rather than help it. So 2" of woods and 3" of open field count as 5".

Wheeling, however, can be used to lengthen the charge, just like in real life. It doesn't seem so if you think about one model turn this way and that, but when you think of 3 or 4 ogres (about the width of two cadillacs) doing this in formation, it's not that crazy. Haven't you ever seen race cars zig zag behind the pace car to build up speed and test their wheels without traveling much distance forward?

theunwantedbeing
17-10-2007, 21:35
Race cars dont zig zag behind the pace car to build up speed.
They do it to warm up their tyres through friction to get the air in the tyres(and the rubber) to the optimum temperature to provide macimum grip.

Ogres dont have that mechanism.
Wheeling isnt zig zagging anyway, its simply turning while moving forwards.
You only get 1 wheel per movement phase so you cant zig zag, only zig.

He Who Is Him
17-10-2007, 22:03
I said, "to build up speed and test their wheels", but maybe you missed that part. The speed at which they are moving is what causes more friction which generates the warmth on the tires, but that's an other discussion.

And I wasn't trying to point out anything about racing, I was using the example to show that zig zag movements can build greater speeds in short distances than a straight line, but I guess that was missed too (why would you want to apply what's posted to what is being discussed?... oh yeah, so conversations make sense)

Okay, they can't zig zag, only zig, but the principal still holds true. They have more distance so they can build up more speed/momentum.

There you go, break out your fine toothed comb and split some more hairs, or just play the game

theunwantedbeing
17-10-2007, 22:52
The speed they are moving doesnt cause the friction otherwise they'de just floor it and not bother with turning unless the track required it.
Its the force applied laterally that exerts pressure and causes the increased friction, and thus the increased temperature for extra grip.

Again this has nothing to do with ogres, nor are they actually able to replicate this by any means, fluff or ruleswise.

If you wheel not everyone moves. Which is required for the bull charge.
Moving through terrain doesnt make you move further, you just have to expend more movement and so cannot move as far through the particular terrain.

When you wheel you simply "count as" having moved as far as the outside model, in relation to your remaining movement allowance.
You yourself on the opposite edge dont move at all during a wheel, so unless you move the required 6" even if its 5.999" the whole unit fails to get the ability to cause impact hits.

I guess its me being a tad anal about the car thing, but It doesnt detract from the game.
Logically(or as logically as you can get with warhammer) an ogre on the inside of a unit that wheels then charges you from 1" away wont get the impact hits on you, even if the outside model(s) move more than 6" going by the rules of warhammer.

Nor would they get it by moving through 2" of difficult terrain to charge you, when they wouldnt get it had that terrain not actually been there in the first place.

He Who Is Him
18-10-2007, 02:00
That's weird, Tad Anal is my favorite gay pornstar. And maybe the ogres are all holding hands red-rover style, so the Bull that isn't moving is acting a pivot point, making those on the outside move faster (principle behind any ball and chain-like weapon or anything you swing on a rope or a stick for that matter)...
This isn't really an actual thought of mine, I just like the image of a bunch of Ogres holding hands and playing red-rover

silentwitness
24-10-2007, 18:52
Red Ogre, Red Ogre send Largegut right over

Bretonnian Lord
25-10-2007, 01:23
Which leads to a delightful Catch-22 with Ranged Units; To make me give up my Bull Charge they need to give up their (more damaging, imo) Stand and Shoot.

Catch-22... I'm writing an English essay on that damn book at this very moment. :p