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ghostmaker12
13-10-2007, 00:54
*I just noticed I posted this in the wrong section will an Admin please move my thread*



Alright well just like everyone else im jumping on the PH bandwagon but insted of doing a true scale army or an army dedicated to just one chapter i was looking to go along the lines of a deathwatch kill team.

Alright now it comes down to this

What Chapters? and What gear?

i was tinking between....

- World eaters
- Alpha Legion
- Death Guard
- Raven Guard
- Red Scorpions
- Mantis Legion (warriors)
- Space wolves
- luna wolves
and lastly Iron warriors.

Hopefully i'll start working on this army within the weekend so pics to come.

C&C are needed.

PS. if anyone has spare deathwatch items such as Bolters, shoulder pads, or the DW box lying around i'd gladly take it off your hands. just name the price.

Light of the Emperor
13-10-2007, 01:52
I'll check my local stores again to make sure, but I think you are stuck to ebay, GW online and the wanted sections...or your local gaming group.

If you are doing pre-heresy marines, the mantis legion and red scorpions did not yet exist.

malika
13-10-2007, 02:10
The Deathwatch is a post-heresy invention if I remember correctly!

BDJV
13-10-2007, 02:13
The Deathwatch is a post-heresy invention if I remember correctly!

I believe you're right.

With that said it would look kinda kool anyway.

ghostmaker12
13-10-2007, 02:33
I had a feeling that was the case. Well the way im looking at it they had to start somewhere, Right? so its THE FIRST EVER DEATH WATCH! MUAHHAHAHAHA.

Also LotE that would be great, I really hope they have some. other than that If worse comes to worse i'll make it post-heresy pre-Badab War.

Eisen
13-10-2007, 02:41
It would be exceedingly difficult to have pre-Heresy Red Scorpions or Mantis Legion. Of course, since the Deathwatch, as part of the Inquisition, postdates the Heresy, it's not like you're staying fluff-pure anyway.

In terms of thinking like a Deathwatch member, Alpha Legion's already got a head start, as do the Death Guard because of their design around a light-infantry, minimal-support style of warfighting.

tagsta
13-10-2007, 02:49
sorry but it doesn't make sense at all fluffwise.
the mantis + scorps + inquisition theme just doesn't fit in there..
skip that idea =)

Feor
13-10-2007, 04:20
Pre Heresy's not going to work, unfortunatly. The Ordos Xenos was founded at the same time as the Ordos Malleus, I beleive, just scant hours after Horus' defeat. So all the traitoir legions are out.

You can still bitz order DW stuff, but all you really need are the shoulderpads and a little creativity with an Assault squad box.

AventineCrusader
13-10-2007, 11:38
You couldn't do pre-heresy, but you could do a Team in all old armour marks (mkIII-V) and it would essentially be the same exercise...

The pestilent 1
13-10-2007, 14:01
sorry but it doesn't make sense at all fluffwise.
the mantis + scorps + inquisition theme just doesn't fit in there..
skip that idea =)

I think that's the problem with most wargamers.
You don't think "Wouldn't it be cool if..."
You think "Well, you can't do that because..."
You lost the spirit of Sci-Fi somewhere.

EmperorsChamp01
13-10-2007, 14:55
Guys there is another Part to this hobby besides Fluff... And that is the game play. And If he wants to make a DW out of Preheresy the who cares... Its not like your going to not be able to play just because there is no way it could happen in fluff.... Just look at some of the other threads on this Site.

Anyways.

Great Idea man. I hope to see some models here soon.

ghostmaker12
14-10-2007, 14:50
Alright heres an update. I got some good and bad news. lets start with the good.

Good: Well one of my friends has pointed out to me that either the new tactical boxes or the command squad box contains a DW shoulder pad. So im a wee bit happy with that seeing is ALOT of my friends are making massive SM apocalypse Armies so there bound to have some spares.

Bad: I did order some parts and one of the old box sets so it may take until the beginning of next weekend for GW to ship it.

Lastly Thanks for the support. I really hope this comes together as planned.

Arkley
14-10-2007, 14:57
I would suggest just after the heresy, as we all know not every legion Horus had turned completely so there is no harm in having a Luna Wolve, Death Guard, World Eaters etc in that squad, hell it would even make sense considering the amount of Aliens they killed :)...

Hope that helps.

ghostmaker12
14-10-2007, 15:44
That is true i was thinking of doing that. But does anybody know witch SM box comes with a DW shoulder pad?

Catferret
14-10-2007, 15:56
The plastic Commander has a DW pad. Don't know about the rest of the boxes I'm afraid.

Feor
14-10-2007, 16:02
Commadn squad box and (apparently) commander box both have the plastic DW shoulder pads. However, they don't actually look that good as compared to the actual, metal DW shoulderpads.

ghostmaker12
14-10-2007, 16:03
still Its a start. I could incorperate it as though the new Raw recruits have the flimsy plastic ones and the veterans and the librarian have the nice intricate metal ones.

ghostmaker12
14-10-2007, 22:08
hey i seem to have come up with an Idea that solves the whole DW post dating the heresy, and that is to have a SM from one of the heresy armies being inducted into the DW completely leaving his army. So with that said i think i may use a World eater for the Captain seeing is that they are very savage, and would make excellent xenos hunters.

AdmiralDick
15-10-2007, 13:35
its a cool idea, but to answer Emporer's Champion 01's question; who cares? obviously gostmaker12 cares. if he didn't care about the background he wouldn't have mentioned it. so yes, whilst i agree that it is perfectly possible for him to make models of pre-Heresy SM fighting for the DW, the irregularities in the backstory would really rather overshadow the models.

now that we've got that aside why don't we look at it from another angle. was the Ordo Xenos set up from scratch. blind as it were. or was it created to take over already existant roles and to consolidate various opperations that were already taking place on a increasingly regular basis into the remit of one, over-arching organisation.

the structure of the Death Watch seems to imply that it was not simply a new creation. if it were it would be a regular chapter, with inducted members as normal. but as is there are no permenant members of the DW, which implies that the Imperium had already come to rely on joint efforts from the SM for covert, anti-alien black-ops, and thus felt no real need to change that system, lest they loose the experience and insite given by its 'current' members.

so i would have no problem seeing what a pre-Death Watch unit would look like. probably fairly similar to the current Death Watch, but with less variety of members (not only because their were only 18 legions, but also because the many and varied oaths to the Ordo Xenos that so many SM chapters fall under did not exist). so pick 3 or four Legions and stick with them. also they would have had basically none of the Inquistion heraldry you'd expect, but by the same token they likely would have had some unifying iconagraphy even if it was just a campaign badge to show who was a member. then again, this iconography may well have been a precursor to current Death Watch heraldy. a sort of proto-form.

as for the black armour, it could go either way. Pre-Heresy SM seemed much keener to fiddle with their armour, mixing and matching marks and having varieties in their paint scheme and general appearence, and the painting armour black is a practicality above all else (it makes them harder to spot in the dark). on the other hand i'd tone that down, because i'd love to do a decent paint job of some well converted pre-Heresy marines and not spoil them by dousing them all in black.

equipment would be an interesting question again. what would they carry? obviously nothing that was invented later, but they may have some modern pre-cursor, and they'd almost certainly have access to awesome stuff that was more common back them (Vortex Grenades, Conversion Beamers, Webbers).

all in all sounds like it could be great.

ghostmaker12
15-10-2007, 20:58
EXACTLY! BINGO! finally someone with a plan yay!

Alrighty then, Now that thats taken care of I was thinking of having just one to two Fully dedicated Marines and a bunch of pre-Badab war legions, seeing how i really want to include some mantis warriors and some red scorpions.

My initial plan is to buy a command squad box because they got lots of nice little bitz that i can take advantage of other than the DW Bits i ordered, and a librarian or chaplian to lead them.

Lastly does anyone know how many MK IV helmets come in the Black Templar accessory box?

chaos0xomega
17-10-2007, 02:34
Guys there is another Part to this hobby besides Fluff... And that is the game play. And If he wants to make a DW out of Preheresy the who cares... Its not like your going to not be able to play just because there is no way it could happen in fluff.... Just look at some of the other threads on this Site.

Anyways.

Great Idea man. I hope to see some models here soon.

Because from the sounds of it he just wants to have a force made up of a bunch of random chapters(or in this case legions) and have rules for it to be used on the tabletop. If thats the case(which it definitely sounds like) then he should do a pre-heresy crusading force(which is fluffy and a perfectly logical way to represent the presence of all the legions in one force, just no mantis legion or red scorpions, unless you want to do post heresy).

Eisen
17-10-2007, 02:40
EXACTLY! BINGO! finally someone with a plan yay!

My initial plan is to buy a command squad box because they got lots of nice little bitz that i can take advantage of other than the DW Bits i ordered, and a librarian or chaplian to lead them.

Lastly does anyone know how many MK IV helmets come in the Black Templar accessory box?

Two slit-side helmets come in the BT box. Depending on what you want to do, you might actually want to pick up a DA command squad box, which is IIRC the same cost, and the DA imagery on the bodies can be filed down pretty easily.

Lord Inquisitor
17-10-2007, 03:04
Pre Heresy's not going to work, unfortunatly. The Ordos Xenos was founded at the same time as the Ordos Malleus, I beleive, just scant hours after Horus' defeat. So all the traitoir legions are out.
Actually, the Ordo Xenos came into existance much, much later. The Inquisition itself as an institution didn't come into existence until the 32nd millenium, long after the High Lords were in power and the original founders were dead.


I think that's the problem with most wargamers.
You don't think "Wouldn't it be cool if..."
You think "Well, you can't do that because..."
You lost the spirit of Sci-Fi somewhere.
But we also want our universe to be consistent. Still, let's see if we can't find some solution...


Because from the sounds of it he just wants to have a force made up of a bunch of random chapters(or in this case legions) and have rules for it to be used on the tabletop. If thats the case(which it definitely sounds like) then he should do a pre-heresy crusading force(which is fluffy and a perfectly logical way to represent the presence of all the legions in one force, just no mantis legion or red scorpions, unless you want to do post heresy).
I agree. Stick to the original legions. Perhaps some form of honour guard for an important individual, one from each of the legions to show symbolic unity? Alternatively, it is POSSIBLE that loyalist members of the original traitor legions - perhaps members of the legions stationed on Terra at the outbreak of the Heresy? - be formed together as a suicide squad to try and redeem themselves against their traitorous bretheren.

To be honest, I don't see why you even need to look at the Deathwatch rules for this project at all. A squad of Chaos Space Marines gives you plenty of options to kit out your squad - and you can make the squad 18 members strong and let you make one from each legion! You can paint each one up in their own pre-heresy scheme. That'd look cool.

Brother Loki
17-10-2007, 15:40
To be honest, I don't see why you even need to look at the Deathwatch rules for this project at all. A squad of Chaos Space Marines gives you plenty of options to kit out your squad - and you can make the squad 18 members strong and let you make one from each legion! You can paint each one up in their own pre-heresy scheme. That'd look cool.

Yoink! That's a brilliant idea! Perfect for people like me with a short attention span.

ghostmaker12
17-10-2007, 23:53
To be honest, I don't see why you even need to look at the Deathwatch rules for this project at all. A squad of Chaos Space Marines gives you plenty of options to kit out your squad - and you can make the squad 18 members strong and let you make one from each legion! You can paint each one up in their own pre-heresy scheme. That'd look cool.


That Indeed is a good overall idea but it still takes away the initial Idea of a pre-heresy DW.

Now i could use the idea of members from some of the chapters that were stuck on Terra trying to redeem themselves by going with fellow loyalist legions on a hunt to destroy there Chaos driven brethren.

Witch would lead to the formation of a Traitor hunting kill team witch later broadened their horizon to the killing of other xeno's.

Please if any of this makes sense let me know.:D

Ben_Jacobs12
18-10-2007, 11:29
What if you didnt call it 'Death Watch' and named it something pre-heresy and used only first founding chapters?

They most likely would have had the idea type thing going around anyway.

I like the idea.

Esinhorn
18-10-2007, 14:38
To save it fluff wise it does not have to be pre-heresy but just before the scouring.
The Luna Wolf can be Inacton the Death guard Garro and who's to say Malcador did'nt find more Loyal(traitors)In fact makes em more loyal when everyone fell to chaos they stayed true to the Emp,there were 100,000's of marines 10 of them could'nt stay loyal.

ghostmaker12
20-10-2007, 18:33
well ive been dwelling on using the idea of making an elite kill team of loyalist marines from the few legions that turned to chaos. I will probably use some of the Marines from the masters of the chapter box to convey the sense of pride they take in still serving the emperor over their primarchs.

Sound good?

Witchfire
20-10-2007, 18:57
*I just noticed I posted this in the wrong section will an Admin please move my thread*



Alright well just like everyone else im jumping on the PH bandwagon but insted of doing a true scale army or an army dedicated to just one chapter i was looking to go along the lines of a deathwatch kill team.

Alright now it comes down to this

What Chapters? and What gear?

i was tinking between....

- World eaters
- Alpha Legion
- Death Guard
- Raven Guard
- Red Scorpions
- Mantis Legion (warriors)
- Space wolves
- luna wolves
and lastly Iron warriors.

Hopefully i'll start working on this army within the weekend so pics to come.

C&C are needed.

PS. if anyone has spare deathwatch items such as Bolters, shoulder pads, or the DW box lying around i'd gladly take it off your hands. just name the price.

red scorpions and mantis warriors didnt exist pre-heresy

Aelyn
20-10-2007, 19:43
You can't do this, as the Deathwatch came about after the Heresy. So having pre-Heresy Legions represented makes no sense whatsoever.

However, last I checked, post-Heresy Chapters with remarkably similar appearances to the pre-Heresy Legions could well exist, so there would of course be no trouble doing THAT... :D

Ignore the naysayers, just come up with fluff justification.

ghostmaker12
20-10-2007, 20:10
well one thought of mine was lets drop the name "Deathwatch" and start clean. If i recall correctly Before the heresy there were many alien races that the Space Marines were fighting and battling. Well now then doesn't that make it seem like there would have to be some sort of unit or sub legion that was skilled in fighting those xenos scum. correct? so thats where i came up with the idea of a squad of xeno hunters (deathwatch) befor the heresy (pre heresy) that would join other legions to help them eliminate the aliens.

If this makes any sense to anyone else please tell me.

Eisen
20-10-2007, 21:07
"Aggressive Negotiation Squad?" Diplomacy at the muzzle of a bolter. Hmm... might be something to that.

ghostmaker12
20-10-2007, 23:30
makes sense. but i want it to be a very elite squad of guys specially equipped with the best equipment (of their time) specially designed and trained to kill xenos. im going to go with Black armour but not the whole silver arm and shoulder pad thing. Who knows i may end up painting them with their normal chapter colors.

synapse
21-10-2007, 11:07
forgive me if i missed this though, taking into account the fact that Death Watch is a post heresy invention, arent red scorpions and mantis warriors Post heresy?

you can either twist background by making pre heresy death watch or twist history by making pre heresy scorpions and mantis'. which will it be?

you know they dont have tobe pre heresy to make them truescale you know!

cool idea though