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Toschenko
13-10-2007, 14:37
My local club is organizing a RTT tournament in november, and I'm trying to get my army finished for that day (you can see the progress following the link in my sig and, if you want, leave a comment ;)). I need to build a list and test it thoroughly, as I'm already short with time and I won't paint a unit if I'm unsure to include it in the final list...

Thus far I painted 20 warriors (HtH weapon and shield), a cannon, 10 miners, a lord/thane and a runesmith: these SHOULD be included in the list (I'm not sure of the runesmith though).

The actual list is:

RUNELORD (general)
Anvil of Doom
Rune of Preservation, Rune of Stone
2x Rune of Spellbreaking
Shield
388 points

THANE
Great Weapon
MR of Gromril, Rune of Preservation
MR of Challenge
134 points

MASTER ENGINEER
70 points

20 WARRIORS
Shields
Full Command
205 points

2x 10 QUARRELLERS
220 points

10 MINERS
Full Command
Steamdrill
160 points

2 BOLT THROWERS
Both with Engineer
1 with Rune of Burning
125 points

19 HAMMERERS
Full Command
Shields
MR of Grungni
327 points

CANNON
Rune of Forging, Rune of Burning
130 points

2 ORGAN GUNS
240 points

The list is pretty heavy on warmachines, as they are faster to paint :angel:... but I'm open even to radical changes so feel free to suggest any hints you may have (given that I must be able to paint all minis before the tourney). The general plan is: shoot them, slow them with the anvil and shoot them more, then annoy them with miners and force a big unit to charge the hammerers with the MR of challenge (I know, it's pretty trivial :D). The quarrellers will engage the enemy's warmachines, trying to get down the crew, while my own warmachines will harass his faster/most menacing units.

These are the armies I expect to face (at least):

3 Empire (2 gunlines)
2 Woodies
1 High Elves (new book, so I don't know what to expect)
2 Tomb Kings (heavy on Tomb Scorpions, the reason for the runes of preservation)
1 Dark Elves
1 Vampire Counts
3 Chaos (Mortals, I'm pretty sure that at least one will bring the Tzeentch eyed lord on dragon)

The armies I don't expect to face are Skaven, BoC and Lizards... but who knows :eyebrows:...

Suggest a change and I'll try it if I can.

Cheers,

Toschenko

Neknoh
13-10-2007, 15:03
Not a dwarf player, however, I do see some basic flaws in your design, your idea is to hang back and shoot, and that's about it, right? Now, there are a few flaws with this list if you are going for that tactic.

First of all, you have a total of 2 blocks used to hold your general line, count, 2, and these two will be in dire trouble should your opponent avoid, tie down or destroy the guns (tomb kings, empire and Vampire counts should manage to hurt your guns by a fair bit), you will have a mere two blocks, this will lead to outflanking of your two units. Also, dwarfs are famous for their anti-magic strengths, however, here I see a grand total of 2 runes dedicated to the dispelling and prevention of enemy magic, 7-11 of your enemies WILL be going for heavy-magic lists, at least in a tournament setting.

Personally, I would make three changes to the army:

1. Include more anti magic, how you do this is up to you, but do it

2. Include a third block of infantry (ironbreakers might be an excellent choice here) together with a Thane with an Oathstone (should he be able to take it) or a Battle Standard Beaerer.

3. Include the Anvil, nothing works better at disturbing enemy lines than this... BEAST.

Toschenko
13-10-2007, 15:24
I'll discuss your points one by one:



1. Include more anti magic, how you do this is up to you, but do it


I have a total of 7 dispel dice (4 base, 2 for the runelord and 1 from the anvil) with two scrolls: with this setting I should be able to resist to enemy magic until I can do something with his mages (like shooting at the unit in which they are hiding):that said, my only magical defense is the anvil so, should this explode, I'll be in big troubles (and probably I'll lose the game anyways).



2. Include a third block of infantry (ironbreakers might be an excellent choice here) together with a Thane with an Oathstone (should he be able to take it) or a Battle Standard Beaerer.


This is the main flaw of my list, and I recognize it: sadly Ironbreakers are an elite choice and I can't include them unless I leave out another unit: the miners and the cannon are a must, so this mean I must decide between the hammerers (one of the best unit in the game, IMHO) and the bolt throwers (2 cheap warmachines for a single elite choice). My guess would be to include another warrior unit instead (maybe with GWs), but I can't decide what to substitute. Any hints?



3. Include the Anvil, nothing works better at disturbing enemy lines than this... BEAST.

I'm already including it ;)

Thanks for answering BTW,

Toschenko

Neknoh
13-10-2007, 15:46
An Organ gun would probably be my first choice of dropping, one of them is enough to leave an area a no-mans-land, where you get the remaining 85 points from, I do not know.

Btw, I did miss the anvil completely, as did I the Runelord, read him as a Dwarf Lord which explains my anti-magic suggestions

Toschenko
13-10-2007, 15:58
I may drop an organ gun and one unit of quarrellers, including a second block of 20 warriors and spending the spare points on shields and one more man (er, dwarf) for the remaining quarrellers: in combat they have a respectable 4+ AS and T4 so I can even use them to protect my warmachines from flyers and scouts, or weaked enemy units.

Something like this:

RUNELORD (general)
Anvil of Doom
Rune of Preservation, Rune of Stone
2x Rune of Spellbreaking
Shield
388 points

THANE
Great Weapon
MR of Gromril, Rune of Preservation
MR of Challenge
134 points

MASTER ENGINEER
Great Weapon
74 points

20 WARRIORS
Shields
Full Command
205 points

20 WARRIORS
Shields
Full Command
205 points

11 QUARRELLERS
Shields
132 points

10 MINERS
Full Command
Steamdrill
160 points

2 BOLT THROWERS
Both with Engineer
1 with Rune of Burning
125 points

19 HAMMERERS
Full Command
Shields
MR of Grungni
327 points

CANNON
Rune of Forging, Rune of Burning
130 points

ORGAN GUN
120 points

Got comments? Please post them :D!

Toschenko

Prince Sairion
05-11-2007, 07:19
Toschenko I found you!

Right then, it's going in the right direction, I for one hate using the anvil as I always find I try and protect it too much, but if that's the choice then I'll advise around that.

I have two thanes in my army, totalling 320pts.
1 - rocleaving, rofury, rostone, mrochallenge, oathstone
2 - BSB, mrogromril, rospeed, rostriking, rocleaving, oathstone.

No. 1 deals 4 s5 attacks, deploys with warriors on a falnk and 'challenges' the flanking unit. No.2 has I4 and ws7, so ws3 troops hit him on 5's, and normally (with I4) after he's hit them with 3 s5 attacks that hit on 3's. Both are magical to deal with the dead. Just added for ideas.

I'd have the rodetermination on the Hammies instead of Grungni to guarantee that they won't run away (stubborn on a 9 on 1D6:cheese:) They also don't need to be that big a unit to survive the game, 15 would do it.

Never worry about being shot at as a Dwarf player, as you can shoot back harder!:D

If you make the two nits of Dwarfs hit hard as well as look menacing, your opponent won't know how to deal with them.

Toschenko
05-11-2007, 08:34
Toschenko I found you!


Thanks for your effort, mate :D!

I've played for a looong time the first thane you suggest... he has always done good, but I want to try some other combination (3 S6 attacks vs 4 S5). However, I should give a try at the BSB (giving the MR of Gromril to him): since my line isn't composed by so many fighty units, I guess that having dwarfs rerolling break tests should be nasty for my opponent... this leaves out the master engineer (one of my favourite choices since the new army book came out), but I guess I'll have to deal with that.

Some of my choices are imposed by the metagame of my local area though: the MR of Grungni is definitely staying, as I expect to face at least 3 VERY shooty empire lists (I made some test game in the past days, one of those lists fielded 3 great cannons, a mortar and 2 hellbasters :eyebrows:) and being my army so tiny I feel I should have some defence against heavy shooting.
The Runes of Preservation are a must (especially on the runelord), since there will be more than one tomb scorpion lurking around, some grave guards, and generally other killing blowing nastyness...

One word on the anvil: I've included it in all my tourney lists since the new rules for it were written, for this is an AWESOME (:cheese:) piece of equipment. Really. It gives you 7 dispel dices (enough for protecting your army against non OTT magic heavy lists), the ability to harass fast cavalry and skirmishers, as well as slowing down the opponent's key units and boosting up your movements... and it becomes really a must when fielding miners. The drawback is having one less hero choice (not really a great issue BTW) and that should you misfire... well, you'll find yourself in big troubles. As for protecting it, it really dipens a lot on the battlefield layout and on the army you're facing, I found that hiding it in a wood or behind a LOS blocking element works against slow or shooty armies, while deploying it behind my lines usually gives enough protection against fast armies, as my units are rock hard in combat. Against flanking skirmishers or fast cavalry I simple use the rune of wrath and ruin or the organ gun (which I always deploy in LOS and range of the anvil), while if I 'm facing BoC or other units who enter the battle from my table edge I deploy a unit (usually the quarrellers with shields) near the anvil, ready for a countercharge. The runelord and the anvil guards are tough enough to face a round of HtH against such units, then I enter the fray and, usually, wipe out the enemy.

Back on topic, I'll surely try to field the BSB as you suggest. Maybe something along this lines?

RUNELORD (general)
Anvil of Doom
Rune of Preservation, Rune of Stone
2x Rune of Spellbreaking
Shield
388 points

THANE
Great Weapon
Rune of Stone
MR of Challenge
Oathstone
Shield
121 points

THANE
Battle Standard
MR of Gromril, Rune of Preservation
Rune of Cleaving, Rune of Striking
160

20 WARRIORS
Shields
Full Command
205 points

20 WARRIORS
Shields
Full Command
205 points

10 QUARRELLERS
Shields
120 points

10 MINERS
Prospector, Standard
Steamdrill
155 points

2 BOLT THROWERS
Both with Engineer
120 points

15 HAMMERERS
Full Command
Shields
MR of Grungni
275 points

CANNON
Rune of Forging, Rune of Burning
130 points

ORGAN GUN
120 points

Total 1999 points (maybe)

I've freed up the points taking out a quarreller, the RoBurning on the bolt thrower, the miners' musician and five hammerers.

Brainstorming on my list is well accepted :D

Toschenko

luckysevens
05-11-2007, 09:20
Hi,

A nice looking list - it's probably fine as it is, just a couple of points for you to consider:

- Is the oathstone thane really necessary? I like the MroGromril + GW + MroChallenge thane for smaller games, as he's cheapish, hits hard and can take some punishment. Here though, do you really need him? With three blocks and plenty of shooting, plus the anvil, you should beable to avoid being flanked (barring a disaster) with careful deployment, so the oathstone could go. He's carrying the Challenge Rune, which is neat (although it does get annoying when you face armies with no viable targets) but you could give that to the BsB if you were to drop Preservation and Striking. He's S5 instead of 6, but he's still no slouch.

- Upgrading one of the warrior units to Longbeards would add a lot to your list. An immune to panic unit that makes both of your other blocks virtually immune to panic is a real comfort. On top of that, they're significantly better in combat than warriors, and they could carry MroGrungni (personally I'd prefer Battle or Courage, but if you're going to be facing a lot of shooting it's not a bad option). Which brings me to my next point....

- The hammerers would really benefit from a RoCourage. There's nothing more frustrating than having your pride and joy stubborn anvil unit get autobroken after an unlucky round, or flee in terror from a dragon/giant etc. They will be especially vulnerable to this as they're your smallest unit, and may attract a lot of flak. MroGrungi will help (but remember a lot of spells out there aren't magic missiles, so no ward save) which is why i'd suggest it on the longbeards, but Courage for me is the way to go.

- Your miner unit is quite pricey for what it will do (and why does it have a standard?). Consider, 2 units of 7 miners will cost 154pts, compared to your unit's 10. They'll have the same chance of turning up, and can go for two targets instead of one. Against armies with no warm machines, they're 2 table quarters contested for little effort on your part. Admittedly, to do that you'd need to drop a special choice, and for me that'd probably be the cannon - and as that's painted (and very nicely too, by the way) you probably won't want to do that. If you were to drop the cannon, the points freed up would let you rune up the bolt throwers to be more of a threat (Penetrating/Immolation/Burning is nice, as is Penetraring/Valiant).

- Lastly, given that your plan is to hang back and shoot, you don't actually have that much shooting. The quarrellers, for all their good points, aren't very good shooters, which leaves you the cannon, 2 Bts and the Organ Gun. Adding a Thunderer unit, or even upgrading the Quarreller unit to thunderers would help a lot. It may also be worth thinking about whether 3 big blocks of troops are really necessary - at the moment, I'd say probably yes, but because you don't have much shooting. The more you hit the opponent from afar, the less you'll need when he gets to you.

So to sum up, I would suggest:

-Drop the spare thane
-Try and fit in some Longbeards, and get the RoCourage on the Hammerers
-Consider shrinking the miners down to free up points (8 or 9 with no command will be plenty to kill off a warmachine crew) with the possibility of a second unit
-Think about shrinking the line units down, and use the points freed up there and elsewhere to get your shooting back up to strength to suit your original plan.

(Or do something a bit out there and get a Gyrocopter :))

Hope some of that's helpful, and good luck for the tournament!

Toschenko
05-11-2007, 10:32
I called for some brainstorming, and now that's a proper one! I'll reply to each of your (well thought after) arguments:



- Is the oathstone thane really necessary? I like the MroGromril + GW + MroChallenge thane for smaller games, as he's cheapish, hits hard and can take some punishment. Here though, do you really need him? With three blocks and plenty of shooting, plus the anvil, you should beable to avoid being flanked (barring a disaster) with careful deployment, so the oathstone could go. He's carrying the Challenge Rune, which is neat (although it does get annoying when you face armies with no viable targets) but you could give that to the BsB if you were to drop Preservation and Striking. He's S5 instead of 6, but he's still no slouch.
Dropping the oathstone thane and giving the MR of challenge to the BSB leave him without defense against killing blows: since I have a rough idea of the armies I'll face there will be plenty of killing blowing units (or characters), and losing 150 and the battle standard for a 6 on a wounding roll would hurt. However I'd consider to drop the MR of challenge too, leaving the BSB as is.



- Upgrading one of the warrior units to Longbeards would add a lot to your list. An immune to panic unit that makes both of your other blocks virtually immune to panic is a real comfort. On top of that, they're significantly better in combat than warriors, and they could carry MroGrungni (personally I'd prefer Battle or Courage, but if you're going to be facing a lot of shooting it's not a bad option). Which brings me to my next point....

- The hammerers would really benefit from a RoCourage. There's nothing more frustrating than having your pride and joy stubborn anvil unit get autobroken after an unlucky round, or flee in terror from a dragon/giant etc. They will be especially vulnerable to this as they're your smallest unit, and may attract a lot of flak. MroGrungi will help (but remember a lot of spells out there aren't magic missiles, so no ward save) which is why i'd suggest it on the longbeards, but Courage for me is the way to go.

What you suggest is interesting to say the least: usually I field a 15 strong longbeard unit with GWs for some extra punch, equipped with the MR of Grungni, and 15 Hammerers with the rune of courage. I've not included them here as well as I didn't have enough points, but since I'm dropping the thane
they become a really viable choice. I'd try with a unit of 20.



- Your miner unit is quite pricey for what it will do (and why does it have a standard?). Consider, 2 units of 7 miners will cost 154pts, compared to your unit's 10. They'll have the same chance of turning up, and can go for two targets instead of one. Against armies with no warm machines, they're 2 table quarters contested for little effort on your part. Admittedly, to do that you'd need to drop a special choice, and for me that'd probably be the cannon - and as that's painted (and very nicely too, by the way) you probably won't want to do that. If you were to drop the cannon, the points freed up would let you rune up the bolt throwers to be more of a threat (Penetrating/Immolation/Burning is nice, as is Penetraring/Valiant).

Here I have to disagree, sorry. Miners have the standard (they used to have full command) since this way I have more chances to win a fight against not only warmachines, but even against a ranked up unit, thus giving me another option with them. The prospector with the steamdrill is a must (IMHO) as it gives you more control on the their arrival on the field. With this setup they won more than a battle almost by themselves.
The cannon is here to stay too, either because it's painted :p (thanks for your appreciation on the paintjob) and because I find it invaluable against tough units, such as cavalry and monsters. The RoBurning is nasty against treemen, too.



- Lastly, given that your plan is to hang back and shoot, you don't actually have that much shooting. The quarrellers, for all their good points, aren't very good shooters, which leaves you the cannon, 2 Bts and the Organ Gun. Adding a Thunderer unit, or even upgrading the Quarreller unit to thunderers would help a lot. It may also be worth thinking about whether 3 big blocks of troops are really necessary - at the moment, I'd say probably yes, but because you don't have much shooting. The more you hit the opponent from afar, the less you'll need when he gets to you.

I'm a quarrellers big fan, mostly for the augmented range, but I think I could try to fit in some thunderers.
You're right when you say that I haven't too much shooting, but I originally wanted to field a more balanced army (since the MR of challenge bearing thane): with the changes you suggest, the balance tends (even if not too much) to a shooty list, but I guess this is not too bad for a dwarf (in a past tourney I fielded a list that was definitely broken, so I wanted to take it a little more easy this time :angel:)



(Or do something a bit out there and get a Gyrocopter :))

Probably it's me but... I'm not too good at using gyrocopters... they tend to die quite easily... I guess I should try to do some gyrocopter training :D

So, here's the updated (again!) list:

RUNELORD (general)
Anvil of Doom
Rune of Preservation, Rune of Stone
2x Rune of Spellbreaking
Shield
388 points

THANE
Battle Standard
MR of Gromril, Rune of Preservation
Rune of Cleaving
150

20 WARRIORS
Shields
Full Command
205 points

20 LONGBEARDS
Shields
Full Command
MR of Grungni
315 points

10 THUNDERERS
Shields
150 points

10 MINERS
Prospector, Standard
Steamdrill
155 points

2 BOLT THROWERS
Both with Engineer
1 with Rune of Penetrating
145 points

14 HAMMERERS (BSB goes here)
Full Command
Shields
Rune of Courage
242 points

CANNON
Rune of Forging, Rune of Burning
130 points

ORGAN GUN
120 points

Total 2000 points



Hope some of that's helpful, and good luck for the tournament!

Your thoughts helped me a lot, thanks for posting them.

luckysevens
05-11-2007, 12:04
No problem, it's a nice distraction from work :D

Personally, I think killing blow is overrated. The chances of it actually coming off are pretty slim, and you do have some control over what you're BsB will fight thanks to the Anvil. So long as you make the Killing blow units a priority with your shooting, I would have thought you'd be ok. Tomb Scorpions would be the biggest threat I guess, but they can scatter, there are unlikely to be more than 2 of them, and they have plenty of other targets too with the warmachines and anvil.

Having said all that, I'm speaking as someone who's never had a character KB'd, and I guess the 15pts would seem a good investment if I had....

With the miners, it's just been my experience that they tend to underperform, so I've decided to keep them cheap (8, no command) and keep my expectations low - a war machine and a table quarter if I'm lucky will do very nicely for 88pts. When I've tried to crossfire units or rear charge ranked units it has never worked out well for me - but that could just be my luck with charging great weapons (you name it: miners, hammerers, slayers - if they charged, they'll miss :)). One last argument against them, then: dropping them to 8 would give you 67 points to play with, almost enough for a Master engineer for the cannon or a Bolt thrower.

With the shootiness, sorry, I must have misunderstood. From your first list and what you said your tactics would be I thought you were going for a more-shooty-than-not list - all I was saying was that as your list changed, it got more skewed towards combat and further from what I thought you were going to be doing with it (ie sitting and shooting). Personally, I much prefer balanced/combat oriented lists to shooty ones, and I prefer quarrellers over thunderers too (my original army idea was no blackpowder, but I found I couldn't say no to the Organ Gun :))

The Gyrocopter can be a bit hit and miss, but for me that's part of the fun. There are some armies that it's fairly useless for (WE all-forest spirits springs to mind), but against others it can just run riot (funnily enough, non-tree spirit WE for one. Long lines of glade guard and the steam gun are a match made in heaven).

Have you had a look at the Bugman's Brewery website? There are loads of sample lists to look at, and wiser people than me to give advice :)

DeathlessDraich
05-11-2007, 12:12
More suggestions:

1) 2 Bolt throwers with engineers is great. Give them both the Rune of Skewering to reach S7 and one with Master Rune of Skewering - will auto kill chariots, Empire War Altar, VC Black Coach. Against WE Treeman, he loses his Forest Spirit save and will be considerably weakened with Rune of Burning.

2) I've dropped the cannon option a long time ago and prefer the cheaper 2 or 4 Bolt thrower option with Runes and S8 .

3) Protect your gun line by staggering them so that the Scorpion can charge only one warmachine and protect the gun line with a Dragon Slayer preferably in a unit of 5 Slayers.

Toschenko
05-11-2007, 13:06
Mmh... returning to quarrellers and giving up the rune of penetrating and the rune of preservation on the BSB (although I had more than one characters killed that way :cries:) would give me the option to squeeze in a naked master engineer for some extra cannon nastyness... the rune of burning should then go from the cannon on one bolt thrower, just to have two war machines with magical attacks. I guess I have to try (an excuse for some more games :p). What do you think about it?

@Luckysevens: thanks for pointing that site, I'll give it a look.

@DeathlessDraich: as I already stated, the cannon is staying as it is one of the few units I have painted (and I tend to invariably miss with bolt throwers)... your suggestions are interesting though, can you point me to what I should drop from the list (other than the cannon :o)? Thanks.

Toschenko

luckysevens
05-11-2007, 13:53
I'd hate to give up the S7 on the bolt throwers, as it is such a boost for them. I'm the same with bolt throwers, awful accuracy, and the number of 1s I roll to wound is depressing. But every now and again I get a game where they perform beyond my wildest hopes - Treemen in one shot, flank shots on knights, lone characters, you name it.

On the other hand, the Master Engineer adds a lot too. D6 wounds is a lot scarier than D3 to dragons/steamtanks etc, but also you get the nice option of a BS5 Bolt thrower if there are multiple smaller threats, not to mention entrenchment on the organ gun/anvil.

Myself, I'd get some points out of the miners, but you seem set on keeping them as they are, which is fair enough. I guess the best thing is like you say, to have some games each way, with/without the master engineer, and see what works.

Toschenko
05-11-2007, 14:05
On the other hand, the Master Engineer adds a lot too. D6 wounds is a lot scarier than D3 to dragons/steamtanks etc, but also you get the nice option of a BS5 Bolt thrower if there are multiple smaller threats, not to mention entrenchment on the organ gun/anvil.


Not to mention that by keeping the cannon near one bolt thrower I can swap the engineer to the latter during my last turn and possibly hold a quarter with the now US5 warmachine...

Toschenko