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ss_cherubael
13-10-2007, 15:57
Ok ive heard all the stuff about Nathaniel Garro, Iacton Qruze and the 70 death guard who escaped on the Einstein becoming the first grey knights and i guess its quite possible that thats what happened after the events of "flight of the Einstein".

I however read the last few pages in this way:
Malcador comes to see Garro, Qruze and the sister of silence and tells them this

"There is a matter in which you will be set...the imperium requires men and women of inquisitive nature, hunters who might seek the witch, the traitor, the mutant, the xenos..Warriors like you, nathaniel garro, Iacton Qruze, Amendara Kendal, who could root out the taint of any future treachery; a duty to vigilance."- p404, "Flight of the Einstein"

Now as ive said lots of people read this (and also Garros sword) as being evidence enough to place garro and his companions as the first of the grey knights. I however see this as Malcador telling garro that the holy ordos of his inquisition are being created and that they need inquisitors and that garro and his friends are going to be the first of them. Firstly the passage spells out the three ordos:
"hunters who might seek the witch, the traitor, the mutant, the xenos", secondly he wants people of inquisitive nature, if thats not a dead give away then i dont know what is. The duty of vigilance is also a pretty big give away here as its the inquisitions job to look at man kind and root out the heresy and what not.
Lastly is an argument that refutes the grey knight claim:
Garro is the only one of the Einstein group who comes close to being a psyker, no one else is. We all know that the Grey Knights are all psykers, rather powerful ones at that. Also we all know that they are marines in terms of their bodies which means that Kendal the sister of silence wouldnt be welcome as she is a woman and unable to take the implants.
As such i think Garro and his men are infact the forerunners to the holy ordos more than the original grey knights.

What do you guys think of this?

kris.sherriff
13-10-2007, 16:09
Its something that is often discussed on these forums and never comes to a conclusion with both sides giving valid support to their opinions.
For my view I think it is entirely possible that they were all part of everything being set up.
Garro could have been fulfilled the role of a gray knight and an inquisitor of all of the orders as there roles hadn't been defined yet.
He could have been non of these and just helped on the training side?

Who knows.:D

Kris

Adra
13-10-2007, 16:45
I belive the training aspect

SonofUltramar
13-10-2007, 17:26
Minor point but at the time the Inquisition was founded their were only two Ordos, Malleus and Xenos. The Ordo Hereticus didn't come into being until after The Age of Apostasy.

IMO Garro, Qruze and the Death Guard were more likely to be the first Deathwatch and perhaps used their experience and intel to help the Ordo Malleus form the Grey Knights?

On the other hand we know that all Grey Knight are Psykers in current 40k fluff but it is possible that this was not always the case and as the role of the Librarian was more defined the Ordo Malleus saw the potential for an entire Chapter of Psychic Marines and changed the way the Grey Knights were trained/recruited?

Jono:)

Mechanicus
13-10-2007, 18:15
Minor point but at the time the Inquisition was founded their were only two Ordos, Malleus and Xenos. The Ordo Hereticus didn't come into being until after The Age of Apostasy.Well, technically, we only know of one at that time (Malleus), and an Inquisitor doesn't have to be part of an Ordo. I suspect that there were many more non-Ordo Inquisitors than Ordo Inquisitors back then, increasing over the millennia, but still with a lot of Inquisitors as non-Ordo in M41. There's no information on when the Ordo Xenos was founded, though I think it would be during mid-late M35, coinciding with the Inquisition's discovery of Tomb Worlds on the Eastern Fringe, and the Eldar attempts to stop them, leading to the Inquisition being more embroiled in problems over there than dealing with Vandire.

talos935
13-10-2007, 20:06
It's unlikely that Garro and troupe would become Deathwatch., more than likely they would be the first Grey Knights or the chaper founders. Remember Garro, Qruze and the men they brought with them are the surviving loyalists from trator chapters. They have faced both the taint of chaos and the daemonic entaties of the warp and came out sane and untained.

Deathwing_Learn
14-10-2007, 08:27
Im going to have to go with the training suggestion. Its seems fitting that Garro and his group would become trainers for the first Grey knights or =I=. I dont think however that they are involved with them at all as those groups probably wouldnt actually come to fruitation until much later. Probably after the Heresy.

ryng_sting
14-10-2007, 11:08
Read FOTE in conjunction with the last HH artbook, and the men Malcador presents to the Emperor. Also reference the numerous other threads that have already been typed about this very subject.

Garro as the trainer and proto-Grey Knight is the best suggestion to date; and remember that the Grey Knights ARE part of the Inquisition.

Nazguire
14-10-2007, 14:08
I think we gotta stop being so restrictive over what Garro and Kendel and the Death Guard could be.
Is it possible that the Inquisition didn't have Ordos until much later in it's organisation? Or if the Ordos were not so strictly defined as ''you hunt daemons- Malleus, you kill aliens-Xenos' then is it not possible that they were part of the Inquisition itself, until the Grey Knights were set up a bit after the Heresy had concluded (in which case Garro and the Eisenstein 70 were included until the requisite recruits were inducted)

I like to think that they (the Marines) were as much an Inquisitor as Kendel and that, then moved on to found the Grey Knights.

Mechanicus
14-10-2007, 14:19
Is it possible that the Inquisition didn't have Ordos until much later in it's organisation?Many of them, certainly, but the Ordo Malleus supposedly dates back to the end of the Heresy, as a body to watch the Inquisition (and the Imperium as a whole) for Chaos taint.


Or if the Ordos were not so strictly defined as ''you hunt daemons- Malleus, you kill aliens-Xenos'...The Ordos, AFAIK, aren't so strict. Eisenhorn hunts more than xenos as does Vail. The Ordos have been compared by Inquisitor players to getting a newsletter every so often, saying things like "New technique for killing x" or "Is there a xenos/heretic/chaos cult on planet x? Investigate if possible". Of course, the known exception to this is Malleus, which is supposed to have a very strict hierarchy as opposed to the rest of the Inquisition. That's not to say it was always this way, of course.

Nazguire
14-10-2007, 14:30
Many of them, certainly, but the Ordo Malleus supposedly dates back to the end of the Heresy, as a body to watch the Inquisition (and the Imperium as a whole) for Chaos taint.


I think the Grey Knights weren't started till a bit after the Horus Heresy, not too late of course, just not almost immediately. So Garro and Iacton could have been inducted as Inquisitors without the usual stipulations of no Marines as Inquisitor thing that is currently the way it is now. Dont need to be relegated automatically as 'Yes/No Grey Knights'

Lord Damocles
14-10-2007, 18:31
Forgive me if this is a stupid question, but if the Grey Knights are the 666th chapter (see Codex: Demon Hunters), would Garro not have had rather a long (centuries long?) wait to become one of the first knights?:confused:

The_Patriot
14-10-2007, 18:38
Forgive me if this is a stupid question, but if the Grey Knights are the 666th chapter (see Codex: Demon Hunters), would Garro not have had rather a long (centuries long?) wait to become one of the first knights?:confused:

It depends upon how many Space Marines are left at the end of the HH. In order to be the 666th Chapter there needs to be at least 667,0000 Space Marines in the Legions since after Index Astartes broke the legions down into 1,000 man Chapters. Each Chapter would be numerically filed based upon their founding and would be a completely arbitrarily assigned number by the central government.

trigger
15-10-2007, 00:27
[QUOTE= and remember that the Grey Knights ARE part of the Inquisition.[/QUOTE]

No they are NOT!:mad:
they are space marines with the specific job of doing over deamons
they are the chamber militant to the ordo malus
the same as the SOB are not part of the inquisition
they just have a packt with each other to do the same job , so its is conveniant that they work together.
Garro in my opinion was the first of the knights after all at the time he was the only space marine on record to have had a fight with a big deamon and won(when i say first i mean in the eyes of the imperium):D

trigger
15-10-2007, 00:30
I think the Grey Knights weren't started till a bit after the Horus Heresy, not too late of course, just not almost immediately.

First off sorry for the double post , i only just notised this

Sorry mate but WRONG
the grey knights were ordered to be formed during the HH by the empora to deal with the coming threat (deamons)

Nazguire
15-10-2007, 11:41
First off sorry for the double post , i only just notised this

Sorry mate but WRONG
the grey knights were ordered to be formed during the HH by the empora to deal with the coming threat (deamons)

I'm reading Daemonhunter Codex, my bad.

Cacodemon
15-10-2007, 12:37
Grey Knights are not the 666th chapter, they were designated as chapter 666.

ryng_sting
15-10-2007, 17:32
No they are NOT!:mad:
they are space marines with the specific job of doing over deamons
they are the chamber militant to the ordo malus [sic]
the same as the SOB are not part of the inquisition
they just have a packt [sic] with each other to do the same job , so its is conveniant [sic] that they work together.
Garro in my opinion was the first of the knights after all at the time he was the only space marine on record to have had a fight with a big deamon [sic] and won(when i say first i mean in the eyes of the imperium):D

Yes they are. They are the soldiers of the Ordo Malleus, which is part of the Inquisition, and their Grand Master has a critical place within the Inquisition's hierarchy, ergo, they are part of the Inquisition.

Two pointers for future posting. One, improve your spelling; two, full stops and capital letters don't bite. Use them!

Smishkun
15-10-2007, 19:39
I think it could go either way. As far as FotE goes, the inquisitorial undertones were rather blatant in that dialogue. But I dont think the two options have to be mutually exclusive by any means.

MadDoc
15-10-2007, 22:37
I think the thing that needs to be kept in mind is that just because Malcador was ordered to gather together the 12 people he later presents to the Emperor, there is nothing to say he knew exactly what role those he selected would be performing (although he was clearly told what qualities would be required from those he selected, and therefore could well have guessed) or that he was aware that the Emperor had some special role in mind for the Space Marines he had selected.

So I think that reading too much into his exact wording is more than a little presumptuous at best.

Even allowing for Malcador being aware of those he'd selected being destined to go on to form what would become the Inquisition, that doesn't necessarily mean that he knew of the special role the Emperor had in mind for the eight Marines (a role which is strongly/blatantly hinted at in the conversation in Horus Heresy Vol. IV: Visions of Death when Malcador presents these eight Marines, and the four normal humans, to the Emperor).

talos935
16-10-2007, 04:04
There is also the potental that Garro and his merry men form a new chapter of demon hunters working on the behalf of the forming inqisition. This chapter [of unknow name] will later either become or found what we now know as the Gray Knights

Lastie
16-10-2007, 08:16
I still personally believe that they met unfortunate accidents not soon after the end of the Heresy that may or may not be related to the early Inquisition making sure they don't 'regret' their decision to stay loyal to the Emperor.

I extremely doubt that will be the case though.:p