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DarkLord Of Naggaroth
14-10-2007, 10:34
ok, I know this is really wierd question, but I can't get my head round how they could have attempted to clear up the wreckage on the Pelianor fields.
300,000 corpses and weaponry; but more importantly about 10 dead Mumakil. No matter how much manpower you have, those things are impossible to move! So what the hell did they do with them?
:confused:
please put my mind at rest

Dr Death
14-10-2007, 10:59
My guess (though it's never explicitly stated) would be a combination of mass graves and burnings. Whether or not the mass graves were located on the actual Pelennor itself i'm not exactly sure. The only account we have of the burial rites of the enemy is the treatment of the Witch-king's steed which was burnt in situe (none dared move it) after-which nothing grew on the site. The rest however i doubt would be buried in the Pelennor it being the farmland of Minas Tirith before the battle and i would assume required for that same purpose afterwards.

The logistics would doubtless have been formidible and no doubt Hurin, Warden of the Keys would have had his work cut out for him organising it. The Mumakil would probably (due to the difficulty of moving them) have been burnt in place, their ashes providing nutriment to the soil after the nasty situation of having an army of destructive orcs churning it up, defecating over it and probably doing all kinds of further lasting damage like salting the earth and scorching all growing things on it.

As far as i know i dont beleive there is any reccord of where Gondorian citizens (military or otherwise) are buried. I think given the situation mass graves are probable but unlike the orcs, i think the Gondorians (and Rohirrim) would likely be buried within the Rammas, probably close to the walls of the city.

Dr Death

Slaaaaaanesh
14-10-2007, 16:53
Why burn the Murmakil? do you smell ribs? Hey Faramir, be a kind sir and pass the BBQ sauce.

DarkLord Of Naggaroth
14-10-2007, 17:07
Why burn the Murmakil? do you smell ribs? Hey Faramir, be a kind sir and pass the BBQ sauce.

yeah lol, that was an idea that came to my head. That could last the whole city a few years while they get their farming back on track.

and thanks doctor death for your reply, I guess it kinda answered my question.

Gondorian
15-10-2007, 01:55
The rest however i doubt would be buried in the Pelennor it being the farmland of Minas Tirith before the battle and i would assume required for that same purpose afterwards.



Not sure about this but I was under the impression that buried corpses were actually quite good for helping things grow on such ground. I seem to recall something about mass crops growing on old battlefields or something.

It's surprising what man power can achieve. They certainly would not be able to move an entire mumakil, not without another mumak pulling it but if they began to divide the mumakil into smaller pieces, it becomes more managable.

Who knows, maybe after making piece with the Haradrim, the Mahud requested that they themselves deal with the bodies of their prized mounts lost in that battle.

Dr Death
15-10-2007, 08:51
Not sure about this but I was under the impression that buried corpses were actually quite good for helping things grow on such ground. I seem to recall something about mass crops growing on old battlefields or something.

It's all good nutriments but mass graves dont make for the best (or most desirable) arable land. Would you for instance want to be eating a potato that has ripened in the eyehole of a dead orc? What's more is that i doubt the Free Peoples would bother to strip the corpses of said orcs (there is a war on) so the land would likely churn up all kinds of buckles, odd peices of armour and such detritus of war when it's returned to it's prior usage.


but if they began to divide the mumakil into smaller pieces, it becomes more managable.

The result would probably be along the lines of the Texas Chainsaw Massacre. God help the bugger who had to cut into it's abdomon as part of that job- the image of a virtual mile of small intestine slithering out onto this poor bloke with a knife is worthy of Nurgle.

Dr Death

Gaebriel
16-10-2007, 16:32
... 300,000 corpses and weaponry; ...
Out of interest, where does the 300,000 come from? I know of an estimate of 11,250 vs 45,000 (Source : Karen Wynn Fonstad, The Atlas Of Middle-Earth), but it's not the first time I hear of the much higher number.

DarkLord Of Naggaroth
16-10-2007, 17:20
Out of interest, where does the 300,000 come from? I know of an estimate of 11,250 vs 45,000 (Source : Karen Wynn Fonstad, The Atlas Of Middle-Earth), but it's not the first time I hear of the much higher number.

I'm sorry but I dont know.
the figure 300,00 came to mind and I'm sure it's over 100,000.

Llew
16-10-2007, 20:45
Over 100k? That doesn't sound really likely to me. I just finished re-reading LotR the other day, and while I'm no scholar, Aragorn set out with a force of about 7000 for Mordor after the battle. 7000 was considered far too weak to assault Mordor, but large enough to earn attention, and they arrived with around 6000 left. They were met by "forces ten times and more than ten times their match" there. (That could be read as somewhere around 60-70k or over 120k...it's ambiguous to me.)

Plus, the Riders of Rohan at Pelenor Fields I thought numbered around 6k...for them to be significant in battle, they'd have to be a much higher percentage of the force on the field than a mere 5% or so I'd think.

Gaebriel
16-10-2007, 21:03
DarkLord Of Naggaroth, no problem with your estimates, I'm just jumping in, because the numbers came up.

Fonstad's numbers are carefully estimated from numbers known, as the 6,000 Rohirrim, and the numbers stated when Gondor's vasalls move into Minas Tirith, as well as from narrative elements like "having three times as many against them", and similar (I can give the quotes and a listing, if anyone likes).

Her estimates come to 11,250 on the side of Gondor and 45,000 on the side of Mordor - considerable forces, taking into account the (pseudo-)medieval societies we speak of, which fielded nowhere as many troops as during ancient times and then again later.

Of course the numbers were blown out of proportion for the film, or at least the pictures make that seem so - anyone with a quote on how many combatants the film is supposed to show?

What would interest me, is if there is any information given in the LotR rulebooks, which if may indicate whether their numbers are based on the books, or based on the films (based on the books ;) ). I just ask, because I get the feeling of repeatedly reading blown up numbers in discussions based on the LotR-films.

Some guy (UK)
16-10-2007, 21:32
DarkLord Of Naggaroth

Of course the numbers were blown out of proportion for the film, or at least the pictures make that seem so - anyone with a quote on how many combatants the film is supposed to show?


According to ROTK DVD extras or some sort of 'the making of' programme, the battle software that is used in various large battles, eg Last Alliance, Helms Deep etc, was set up to show 200,000 Orcs at this particular battle (I'm 99% sure this was the firgure- it was far exceeding any numbers given in this thread anyway, as one of them was going on about something like it would make Helms Deep look like a skirmish in comparison).
I don't however remember any numbers mentioned for numbers of soldiers in Minas Tirith itself though.

Killshot
17-10-2007, 00:55
Boromir says that attacking the Black Gates with 10K men would be "folly," implying, to me at least, that 10,000 men was a large army to them.

TheNZer
17-10-2007, 06:12
In the behind the scenes in the movies it's quoted that around 200-600K of Orcs were on the pelenoor.

In the books the Riders of Rohan had 6500 men (aprox) and it qoutes that the Haradrim along had a force over three times the size of the RoR.


and the haradrim were a minority in size to teh orks so yeah...I'd say in the books at leats 100K would be about a correct figure.

Colonel Deal
17-10-2007, 12:50
There is no mention in the books that the Haradrim were a minority in the force at the Pelennor. In fact they would seem to be a major component. Eighteen thousand is certainly a bigger force than any of the individual forces of the free peoples, unless you group those of Minas Tirith together with the troops from the Fiefdoms, and even then they fall short.

There are no numbers given for the Easterlings, Variags or men from Far-Harad, so it would seem that they were the minority forces, not the Haradrim.

The figures used in the Atlas are much more believable, especially the number of times in the books where Tolkien shows that ten thousand is a very large force. The entire force which Rohan could ever hope to muster according to Theoden is roughly 12-14K. Mordor could bring forces to bear much larger, but several hundred thousands is unfeasable in a pseudo-medieval setting. The slave fields of Nurn surely could not feed a force that size.

Odin
17-10-2007, 17:37
They have a similar problem if an elephant dies at a zoo. I never realised what happens until I got my current job, but it turns out they have to hack the dead elephant up into much smaller pieces to dispose of the body. Not a pleasant job, especially when they get to the guts.

Four20edLogan
17-10-2007, 22:39
ok, I know this is really wierd question, but I can't get my head round how they could have attempted to clear up the wreckage on the Pelianor fields.
300,000 corpses and weaponry; but more importantly about 10 dead Mumakil. No matter how much manpower you have, those things are impossible to move! So what the hell did they do with them?
:confused:
please put my mind at rest

My guess;

Ate the Munmakil, burned the orcs, burryed the humans.

Kroot Lord
18-10-2007, 18:34
I somehow have 600000 come to mind of the enemies at the Fields. I think it was from the books, or the movies...

Rohan was 6000 horsemen according to the movies and around that in the books.

sheck2
18-10-2007, 18:48
100k-200k seems too big. Use comparisons from the Second Age...The Alliance forces marching on Mordor had a little more than 100k and they were opposed by 300k-500k of orcs. The numbers in those days far exceeded anything Sauron could muster during the Third Age.

Sauron might have had 200k overall, but the forces at Minus Tirith were mostly from Minus Ithial, which as emptied of forces to attack.

Gaebriel
18-10-2007, 19:03
Hmm, the forces of Minas Tirith and their Allies are pretty much pinned down - giving a little less than 3,000 Vassals, 6,000 Rohirrim, and a number from Minas Tirith which is not fixed, but would have been in the best case not more than double, more likely even less than the Vassals. Add to that the 2,000 that arrived with Aragorn via ship, that makes something between 11,000 and 17,000.

That is not that many, and would have been hard pressed to wrap up even 50,000 opponents, not to speak of 100,000 or a multiple of that - don't forget the opponents didn't flee wildly, even after the Witch King was slain.