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Dedalus
05-09-2005, 12:51
I've been thinking about this character:

Tzeentch Lord on a Chaos Dragon
Golden Eye of Tzeentch
Staff of Change

This means its a chaos Lord on a dragon, a level four wizard with a 3+ ward save against all shooting(magical and normal) for him and the dragon and he can reroll any number of dice to cast dispel once per turn.

Is this character unfair? I don't wanna play something completely once sided but I wanted to be sure he actually is.
What do you think? Would you be annoyed if I played with this character against you (only at 3000 plus points)?
Thanks for the feedback,
Dedalus

samael
05-09-2005, 13:16
I've never come up against this thing before but after reading about it on numerous forums I have discovered that the proper response to one of these monstrosities is to: "punch the owner in the stomach and steal his army case." ;)

But if you wanted to try it out for once it would be fine by me.

Do you plan to accompany him with the mandatory 16 chariots of tzeentch?

Hespithe
05-09-2005, 16:37
Woudn't be a problem for me, as I don't mind the opponent fielding point-sink units. There are many tarpit solutions to such a character, and once the beast is stopped by a small unbreakable horde, the remainder of the chaos army is in jeopardy of being overrun by a more numerous foe. I'll just need to keep a few more dispel scrolls handy.

I wonder what a Bretonnia army would do to counter the combo?

the_night_reaper
05-09-2005, 16:56
I think that character is awesome! He's pretty much everything a lord of chaos should be and as long as you don't have more than maybe 2 other characters, you can add a cool narative to the game.

Also he's definately not a point sink, because he has awesome destructive power, and should be able to make most of his points back. (ecspecially if he's accompanied by 16 chariots of tzeentch lmao!)

@hespithe I can't really think of any small unbreakble horde that can hold this monster back. If you're thinking along the lines of a chaos spawn or something similiar or a unit of zombies/ skeletons/ flagellents then those units are too slow and easily avoidable by a flying dragon. And they'll be much too burnt to ashes if the dragon is allowed to use his breath attack before a charge.

I say try it and see what you're opponent says. If he says it's cheap than try it against another opponent because there are lots of stuck up players out there, where anything better than their own super tooled up character is cheesy and not allowed to be played.

Trunks
05-09-2005, 18:52
Also he's definately not a point sink, because he has awesome destructive power, and should be able to make most of his points back. (ecspecially if he's accompanied by 16 chariots of tzeentch lmao!)

He is a huge point sink because it is nearly 1000 points in one model. It has nothing to do with being able to make your points back. It's that it is a huge chunk of your points in one model which is the very definition of a points sink, nothing to do with how many points he can make back.



@hespithe I can't really think of any small unbreakble horde that can hold this monster back. If you're thinking along the lines of a chaos spawn or something similiar or a unit of zombies/ skeletons/ flagellents then those units are too slow and easily avoidable by a flying dragon. And they'll be much too burnt to ashes if the dragon is allowed to use his breath attack before a charge.

I say try it and see what you're opponent says. If he says it's cheap than try it against another opponent because there are lots of stuck up players out there, where anything better than their own super tooled up character is cheesy and not allowed to be played.

Skeletons and Zombies can engage a dragon. Vanhels Danse or the Tomb King equivalent will do it for you. Unless the Dragon is more than 16" away at the beginning of the VC turn.

I personally think this character costs too many points to field in a 2000 point game, and is really pushing it even in a 3000 point game. Nothing to do with his power, it has to do with the lack of troops you can field because he is there (you can get alot of stuff for those points . . .).

Dedalus
05-09-2005, 19:01
Ok well maybe I'll go for it, I play 3000 points so rarely it should be ok. Gonna be a conversion dark elf dragon and a bits ordered tzeentch greater demon head, a mounted slaasnesh lord model for the rider (porbably the regular tzeentch sorcerer head).

hehe bits ordering is shiznit for making cool models ;)

Ruido
05-09-2005, 19:03
Look the dragon is 360pts, the mark of tzeentch for a lord to make him lv4 is 140, and the lord is 210 plus the 100 of magic stuff. So you got 810 pts worth of pure beastage. If i was this player i would then use some sorcerors one unit of warriors and then a bunch of maruaders.

Vosk
05-09-2005, 19:20
Indeed, the best sort of army to follow this guy around would be a scroll caddy Tzeentch Champion, a vast swarm of Marauders/Hounds, a couple of Chariots for hammering units that the Marauders engage, and a flock of Screamers to hunt down enemy warmachines (you know, just in case the Eye isn't enough :P). At 3000pts I'd quite enjiy playing against such an army - one area will of course be dominated by the Dragon, but everywhere else the Chaos player should be on a bit of an up-hill struggle.

At 2000pts I'd still play against it, but I don't think there are too many people out there who would put up with it for long.

Crube
05-09-2005, 22:17
Just make sure you use the lord to his full potential.. dont be afraid to engage in HTH

Also, hope you're lucky with the spel rolls...

Lord Anathir
05-09-2005, 23:39
I unmake it by taking high magic and the book of hoeth. Then if im lucky, the RBT can kill the rider.
If ur not using high elves, remember that non magic missiles still work, so comet is also a good choice.
i have an opponent who uses the exact same combination, but he takes a unit of chosen warriors + chosen knights. Needless to say, i always outnumber him. My best bet is that, with a defensive army, close ranks extrememly tight so that he does not have anywhere to land if he wants to attack ur warmachines.

DisturbeD_
05-09-2005, 23:45
i use that in charter battles, it's a great amount of fun, never used it in a pitched battle though. hope for orange fire though :D

Dedalus
05-09-2005, 23:48
Well so far it looks like most people would be ok with this guy popping up once in a while. I'll be into my campaign's mega-battle before he is ready, and our mega battles are always a huge (about six per side) so I'm looking forward to trying him out.
Thanks for all the feedback and I'll let ya know how he does :)

Brother Edwin
05-09-2005, 23:55
I think he is the only reason I would ever consider a Hordes of Chaos army worth doing.

Eldacar
06-09-2005, 07:17
If ur not using high elves, remember that non magic missiles still work, so comet is also a good choice.
Anathir, remember that the Staff of Change allows him to re-roll any failed dispel attempts. So he has a good chance of neutralising any magical attempts, regardless of which spell it might be.

To the character: It is the Tzeentch Flying Lord of Magical Doom. Very dangerous in the hands of a skilled player. But it ain't invincible, nothing is.

Dedalus
06-09-2005, 13:58
=Eldacar
To the character: It is the Tzeentch Flying Lord of Magical Doom. Very dangerous in the hands of a skilled player. But it ain't invincible, nothing is.

This is true, I'll try not to be disappointed if, knowing my luck, he'll be the first to die lol

Dedalus
06-09-2005, 14:01
i use that in charter battles, it's a great amount of fun, never used it in a pitched battle though. hope for orange fire though :D
Oh man Tzeentch Lore is one of the best I think...orange fire and green fire being my favorites.

Lord Anathir
06-09-2005, 16:37
@ eldacar.
not if ive got the book of hoeth :D

Lordmonkey
06-09-2005, 20:24
Undead will pwn him with tarpit tactics - or worse, breaking him with combat res when you (inevitably, as one does) fluff your dice rolls in hth.

Aside from this, there are many ways to destroy dragon riding nasties - he's about 810 pts isn't he? Empire gets artillery, and a hell of a lot of shooting that will likely knock him off the saddle, bretonnians get charges no matter WHAT you do (that is, if your opponent is clever about it and the terrain isnt too one-sided), orcs and gobbos can ignore it with ease, or blast it with magic. Then there's elves, who always have a way - bolt throwers, nasty magic items... Lizardmen get a git on a carnasaur who can probably outfight a chaos lord with he right tools, as well as skinks with poison. Skaven get shedloads of (broken) support batteries like the ratling gun, etc... OK get... well, theyre ogres. Dwarves get artillery, guns AND slayers...

so yeah... not really all that scary.

Hywel
06-09-2005, 23:39
Nah, he only gets cheesy when you give him a great weapon ;)

Just make sure you back him up with a pair of shaggoths.

Major Defense
06-09-2005, 23:55
If faced with this character, my HE mages would just try to use non-missile damage spells like Uranons Thunderbolt. That will basically negate all saves.

Or a HE Lord with the Null Stone and a dragon of his own...that would end it quickly. Just move near him, cast any kind of damage spells, missile or otherwise, and the Staff of Change can't even save you then.

To be sure, it is a very powerful combination and anyone would have to be stupid to not fear it. That said, there is always a way to combat such things. The trick is to use that to your advantage and win another aspect of the game while your opponent is spending their effort on killing the Chaos lord.

der_lex
07-09-2005, 18:28
People already hate me for using the same lord on a Disc...

putting the damn thing on a dragon would probably result in nobody wanting to play against me any more :)

But it's a cool unit though..;although I'd never use him for HtH....just go for ranged killing with spells and BW from behind your enemy's lines, and fly away when things start to threaten you with charges...

Hywel
08-09-2005, 00:06
But then you're wasting the 210pt warrior statline you paid for. I've seen few games where one mage has caused 400pts worth of damage.

It's the recurring problem of the all-rounder. To get the best value out of one part of them often diminshes the other. Necrarch lords and so on suffer the same problem. The key is to commit them, but wisely.

Guido le Wombat
08-09-2005, 00:26
The key to using a character like this is to be a beardy player.

To get the most from beard you must become one with the beard.

der_lex
08-09-2005, 07:49
But then you're wasting the 210pt warrior statline you paid for. I've seen few games where one mage has caused 400pts worth of damage

True, although a zippy tzeentch lord is probably one of the most probable characters to do so, IMO. I don't know how many kills the guy made in my last 3K game against a slayer army, but I know he made the 400 point mark with ease.

Personally though I don't really hold much with 'units earning back their points'. My army has to function as a whole, and if I have a very expensive 'support unit' that guarantees victory, so be it.

A lord on disc or dragon is, in my opinion, best for getting behind enemy lines and zapping his strongest or most annoying units in the first half of the game, when there are still lots of unengaged units.
His warrior statline makes him great for charging war machines (although a decent tzeentch force will have screamers doing that) and to either attack characters or flank units already in combat in the second half of the game, when you have nothing important left to shoot at.

By playing the game in two 'halves' like this you get the most out of the lord as both a fighter and a spellcaster, IMO...

Eldacar
08-09-2005, 08:19
@ eldacar.
not if ive got the book of hoeth
For a flying Tzeentch Lord on Dragon, an Archmage with the Book of Hoeth will be his first target. ;)

shadowprince
09-09-2005, 20:30
Anathir, remember that the Staff of Change allows him to re-roll any failed dispel attempts. So he has a good chance of neutralising any magical attempts, regardless of which spell it might be.

To the character: It is the Tzeentch Flying Lord of Magical Doom. Very dangerous in the hands of a skilled player. But it ain't invincible, nothing is.

He said the book oh hoeth so the reroll dispel attempts ot really the deal. PErsonaly high elfs have a good solution Book of hoeth Vauhls unmakeing get rid of that ward save and say hello to mr. Bolt Thrower. Or yo waste the dispell dice aqnd use the ring of corin either way the high elfs shouldn't have too much of a problem just got to keep hitting him with eagles in the back to slow him down.

Eldacar
10-09-2005, 04:02
He said the book oh hoeth so the reroll dispel attempts ot really the deal. PErsonaly high elfs have a good solution Book of hoeth Vauhls unmakeing get rid of that ward save and say hello to mr. Bolt Thrower. Or yo waste the dispell dice aqnd use the ring of corin either way the high elfs shouldn't have too much of a problem just got to keep hitting him with eagles in the back to slow him down.
And like I said: All of that ability doesn't do anything if he stays away for one turn, then charges in and tears those expensive mages apart in the next turn. An Archmage with the Book of Hoeth won't always get Vaul's Unmaking, and in any case, you're just looking at the magic aspect, and are completely forgetting about the fact that this is a Chaos Lord we're talking about, somebody who can be extremely deadly in combat as well as magically.

taer
10-09-2005, 04:13
Not to mention the classic combination with this guy is a flying cadre of fun dancing about and a bazillion chariots for that oh-so-important, infinite-powerfamiliar-impact-causing-terror force from hell.