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View Full Version : Can IG work without tanks? Best IG army build?



EvilGenius1
14-10-2007, 13:46
I might some IG stuff on Ebay and I was thinking about skipping tanks and using the money to buy more infantry, do infantry guard armies work? What about going the other way and getting lots of tanks but not too much infantry. Or, heavy artillery and lots of infantry. Which one would work best? These would be my alternatives...

Infantry Force:
5x Cadian Shock Troops boxes
1x Cadian Special Weapons
1x Cadian Weapon Teams (3)
1x Commissar

Armoured Force:
3x Leman Russ Battle Tank
2x Cadian Shock Troops
1x Kasrkin
1x Cadian Weapon Team (1)

Heavy Artillery Force:
3x Basilisk
2x Cadian Shock Troops
1x Cadian Heavy Weapon Teams (3)
1x Cadian Heavy Weapon Team (1)

Thanks!

Gwedd
14-10-2007, 14:11
Comrade,

You didn't mention it, so I'll ask: Have you purchased the IG Codex yet? That ought to be your first purchase. It will lay out all the doctrines and various permutations you can use with a Guard Army.

An all-infantry force can certainly survive, but it WILL need a lot more heavy weapons than you have listed in your post. One per squad, minimum. Depending upon which doctrine you take, you can also use a Heavy Weapons platoon (3 squads plus a command squad) as a Heavy Support choice...

I hope you enjoy painting :)

Bunnahabhain
14-10-2007, 14:50
The single most competitive Guard army list is almost entirely tank free.

It's called Drop plasma spam. Everyone who can deepstrikes, with as many plasma guns, and some melta guns. Use 3 squads of veterans, and the grenadiers doctrine to take storm troopers as troops. Everyone takes special weapons, very few heavy weapons, as they can't fire on the turn they land.

You have so many units, some of them will land where you want them to. Lots will die to assualt squads, bad scatters etc, but you should have enough left to rapid fire the enemy to death.

The only armour is either a few sentinels, or a few basalisks. They take improved comms, so you can get your deep strikers down.

It's also incredibly boring to use, and face But it is competitive, and fairly much tank free.

Tom20
14-10-2007, 14:53
for a bure infantry guard force get a lot of guards men and a lot of heavy weapons lots of em and hope to hades that the enemy wont come closer.

i did have a fun combat patrol game once 55 guards men vs 16 nurgel marines would have won if he didint get his 20 deamons on to the board, he only had 2 champs whit prsonal icons left, ther went 35 guards men.

Mandrathrax
14-10-2007, 17:46
I play two armies, one a Vostroyan Guard army, and the other a Chaos Black Legion army.

For the IG, i just love tanks. i find that after playing a game with chaos, the little guardsmen are just too.... flimsy. no-one takes an army of guardsmen seriously, at least on-one i know. tanks provide the backbone of an army, and if you have more of them, they work on the psychological warfare level.

as for this "drop plasma spam" tak-tik mentioned by Bunnahabhain, i really fail to see how a couple of berserker squads summoning daemons for reinforcements can't just mop those up as they come in. and some ranged marines too. havocs can rapid fire things to death with 10x the efficiency as a squad of storm troopers. especially with the superior AP on our side.

heavy weapons teams are way too immobile for my taste, even when fighting defense. raptors, bikers and fast attack can really be put to good effect against these, and because heavy weapons teams aren't as numerous as normal guardsmen, you can't afford to waste them.

Bunnahabhain
14-10-2007, 19:11
Drop plasma spam works as you have about 40 plasma or melta guns arriving, half of which are BS4, plus demo charges, and some lasguns. You pick a target that must die, like the berserker's above, drop units around it until you're confident it's dead twice over, then move on. The improved comms allow you to manage your units arrival. When it works, you land at one end of the line, and rapid fire everything in range, and just roll up the line.

It's the most viable win at all costs Guard list. It doesn't compare to other armies power builds.

Is it the best Guard build? NO. Something with more variety, tanks, troops in transports, etc, etc is far more fun, and challenging to play, and more fun to face, but simply isn't as powerful, which if you're facing Nidzilla, 3 falcons, stealer swarms, Las/plas Assault cannon spam, is somewhat of a problem.

Finn
14-10-2007, 21:26
Just FYI - when you take Grenadiers for Stormtroopers as troops, they can't drop or infiltrate.

So give them Chimeras with Imp Comms, if necessary....That plus any Sentinels and possibly Hellhounds will give you whatever armor support you need (heh, Chimeras for armor support...)

keatsmeister
14-10-2007, 22:20
The combo of Drop Troops and Light Infantry can be very useful, if a little pricey. I usually go for a mobile platoon with rapid fire weapons only, a solid, static platoon with heavy weapons and plasma guns, a heavy weapons platoon of Fire Support squads, MIssile Launchers for the Command Platoon and a squadron or two of Sentinels. Between Infiltrating and Deep Striking my units, I can take and hold ground reasonably well.

Mandrathrax
14-10-2007, 23:05
I still say you're wrong. with berserkers, they're too busy being in close combat for you to use plasma weapons on them. in addition, i'm not above using berserkers as cannon-fodder so i can rapid fire you to death with plague or rubric marines.

Bloodknight
15-10-2007, 00:04
I still say you're wrong. with berserkers, they're too busy being in close combat for you to use plasma weapons on them.

The problem is that there is nothing on the board to be in CC with before stuff drops down and shoots the berzerkers to death. That's how Plasmaspam works. The PM would probably eat demo charges and meltagun fire. Once the units have been dropped the guard player assumes they are dead anyway.

boogle
15-10-2007, 00:47
to be honest if you can fit over 100 IG troopers on the table after Special and Heavy Wepaons, it is quite intimidating for yout opponent, i base my army around 127 infantry figures before adding anyting else (Command HQ with Autocannon and Mortar Squads attached, and 2 55 Man platoons; one with ML and GL and Voxes and the other with Veteran Sgts and Flamers, then add a Hellhound and some Sentinels for flavour and then see what points i have left

EvilGenius1
15-10-2007, 02:16
So an all-infantry force is not a good idea? The 3 Leman Russ list is better?

Outlaw289
15-10-2007, 02:36
So an all-infantry force is not a good idea? The 3 Leman Russ list is better?

All infantry forces work fine you can fit a lot of heavy weapons in that way.

I tend to favor vehicle lists, like 2 Russes, 2 or 3 Chimeras with Grenadiers/Veterans, and a Hellhound or two, supported by some AT support teams and 55 man infantry section

Higgen
15-10-2007, 03:47
All infantry IG is also a good backbone for some Allies. I enjoy adding some Sisters to my army to increase their CC effectiveness, but I still have 2 Russes and 4 Heavy Weapon Support squads at 1850 points. I'm a groundpounder at heart, but even I recognize the need for tanks in a pure IG force. Not only do they provide some serious anti-infantry firepower, but they're also much more mobile than regular infantry, allowing you to at least provide a half-hearted attempt at last minute objective snagging.

@Mandrathrax: Pure Drop Troop Guard with an infiltrating base is easily the most competitive Guard configuration. Once you're down and you get your round of shooting, it doesn't matter if those men die. The squads are as cheap you can possibly make them, so any competent CC unit will eat through them in one turn, leaving them open to more Deep Striking Death. Your men will die, and they will die quick, but survivability is not the point of the list. Unfortunately it is fluffy in maybe one or two cases, generally unexciting to play more than once, maligned as cheesy (I'd agree), and neutered in Alpha missions.

However, I personally include 3 units of Deep Striking Vets with 3 PGs and a bolter at a modest 76 points apiece in every Guard list I take. I don't think it's overly cheesy and I've never had an opponent complain about them. They're also the most effective answer I have to the threat many enemy units oppose, including tanks I can't reach with my lascannons.

Takitron
15-10-2007, 04:16
an all infantry force with tons of lascannons and, standards, master vox, commisars, and 50 man conscript squads is almost unbeatable.

EvilGenius1
15-10-2007, 04:28
Ok everybody, thank you so much for your help so far, you've all been really great. I looked through the IG codex and made two lists based on two different purchase options, basically the ones I said earlier...

"Panzer Division", Elite Grenadier-Style List

Stuff to Buy:
1x Apocalypse Leman Russ Squadron (3 Tanks)
3x Cadian Shock Troops
1x Cadian Heavy Weapons Squad (3 Teams)
1x Commissar

Doctrines
Grenadiers
Veterans
Iron Discipline
Close Order Drill
1 more

HQ

Junior Officer
4 Guardsmen, CCW
F. grenades
power weapon
plasma pistol
honorifica imperialis
85 pts.

Commissar
power weapon
45 pts.

Fire Support Squad
3x Heavy Bolter
80 pts.

Anti Tank Support Squad
3x Missile Launcher
95 pts.

ELITES

5 Hardened Veterans
1x Lascannon
70pts.

5 Hardened Veterans
1x Lascannon
70 pts.

TROOPS

10 Storm Troopers
2x Grenade Launchers
116 pts.

10 Storm Troopers
2x Grenade Launchers
116 pts.


Infantry Platoon

Junior Officer
4 Guardsmen, CCW
F. grenades
power weapon
plasma pistol
60 pts.

Squad 1
Grenade Launcher
Autocannon
78 pts.

Squad 2
Grenade Launcher
Autocannon
78 pts.

Heavy Support

Leman Russ Battle Tank
3x Heavy Bolter
155 pts.

Leman Russ Battle Tank
3x Heavy Bolter
155 pts.

Leman Russ Battle Tank
3x Heavy Bolter
155 pts.

TOTAL: 1288 PTS.
Total Models: 66 + Vehicles


"Grind 'Em Down", Infantry Horde

Stuff to Buy:
5x Cadian Shock Troops
1x Cadian Heavy Weapons Squad
1x Commissar

Doctrines
Conscript Platoons
Close Order Drill
Veterans
I don't know what else to take

Junior Officer
4 Guardsmen, CCW
power weapon
plasma pistol
honorifica imperialis
80 pts.

Commissar
power weapon
plasma pistol
55 pts.

Fire Support Squad
3x Heavy Bolter
80 pts.

ELITES

5 Hardened Veterans
1x Lascannon
70pts.

5 Hardened Veterans
1x Lascannon
70 pts.

5 Hardened Veterans
1x Lascannon
70 pts.

TROOPS

Infantry Platoon # 1

Junior Officer
4 Guardsmen, CCW
power weapon
45 pts.

Squad 1
Grenade Launcher
Missile Launcher
83 pts.

Squad 2
Grenade Launcher
Missile Launcher
83 pts.

Squad 3
Grenade Launcher
Missile Launcher
83 pts.

Squad 4
Grenade Launcher
Autocannon
83 pts.

Squad 5
Grenade Launcher
Autocannon
83 pts.

Conscript Platoon (25 men)

Squad 1
Flamer
49 pts.

Squad 2
Flamer
49 pts.

Squad 3 (5 men)
Flamer
29 pts.

TOTAL: 1002 pts.
Total Models: 107
-After this I can either get another 3 weapon teams or another box of Cadians. Maybe the heavy weapons is a better idea seeing as I have to get all the above heavy weapons from one box. Is that possible?

UncleCrazy
15-10-2007, 04:31
All IG infantry armies are very good. Yesterday I watched a Hive Tyrant get spot lighted to death. Yes that is a Tyrant dying to lasguns. Also most players take lots of anti-tank weapons, so if they shoot the AT at your squads they just kill one of the cheapest minis in the game. AT costs a lot guards men don't.

Reinholt
15-10-2007, 05:03
Based on my play experience, I would say the following:

1) All infantry guard can work. It's definitely not my style, as I prefer mobility, and it's definitely going to have problems in missions that seriously demand maneuverability. However, the sheer firepower is amazing, especially on tables with relatively little terrain. It can work.

2) Heavy on the tanks can work well; again, situationally dependent. You'll get railed (pun intended if you are up against Tau) by faster armies with lots of tank killers, but other than that, you should be good.

3) In my experience, the best guard armies have a balance of armor, infantry, and some kind of support for assault, be it through close range firepower on units that win assaults, or allies that provide some serious teeth hiding in the back line (nothing like grey knights or assassins to counter-charge and change the dynamic of the game). This is barring the super-competitive environment, where I do believe certain interesting lists with drop plasma or mechanized with the right allies are badass.

4) Drop plasma is great vs. MEQ... and can be terrible versus other things. Our guard player has a drop plasma list, and he does very well with it against several of us, but gets eaten for lunch (literally) by our tyranid player. Maybe drop flamer would be better there...

My 2 (insert your cheap currency here).

Colonel Fitzgerald
15-10-2007, 11:45
I think, moreso than the other armies I've used, IG suffer badly when playing a competent opponent or, worse, an opponent that plays Guard but today is using something else. I guess that's like all armies though. While IG can throw a lot of firepower out and are more resilliant in an assault situation than many think, when it comes to being shot, they suffer very very badly. That's important though - I never demoralised another player more than the time we played Cityfight and they had a turn of firing just bounce off my 4+ coversaves.
For games where you need to capture objectives, you might want to consider taking a vehicle or two because almost all of your men lay down and die if the enemy even point their guns in the same direction. All infantry Guard armies ain't exactly agile and they don't exactly hold off assaults well until the outnumber the enemy in numbers and points by some margin.

EvilGenius1
15-10-2007, 23:45
So covering the board with soldiers and moving forward in waves with fire support won't work?

Tanith Ghost
16-10-2007, 00:03
On the contrary, all infantry guard can work wonders. Get your men kitted with heavy weapons out the rear end and take those heavy weapon platoons. Give your Junior Offiers power weapons and fists to discourage enemy hth troops. Stock on autocannons and lascannons- I find a mix of one lascannon to every two autocannons works well- that 48" range will let you start early when you want to stop rhinos or wave serpents and then gun up their passengers.

Take those commisars too- ld 10 is gold when you need a roadblock to hold for a turn.
Give the infantry squads their heavy weapons- the firepower coming off a HW armed platoon is just disgusting. It'll pitch even plauge marines over in the dirt(Last saturday
I saw a whole squad of 20 plauge marines buy it to 43 lasguns and four autocannons- they just couldn't kill enough IG, even at close range, to blunt the return volley. The moral of the story- don't get within rapid fire range of a platoon's worth of IG unless you can charge.:skull:)

You don't even need sentinals- with so many infantry in play, mobility won't be a problem as most foes will be forced into cover by the constant fulisades. Individual squads can them move up as needed under the covering fire of the heavy weapons.

Mandrathrax
16-10-2007, 00:29
i config my armies 2x: 1: anti tank 2: orks and IG. this allows for being able to anti-personel the weak cheap IG and grot (i hate grot swarms, my friend plays one of them) to death, or, should i face some heavy armor guys like SM in the next match, i switch them out. it's just a matter of having a few extra guys with each squad, swapping out heavy for special weapons. the extra tanks are a pain though.

i'll have to fight out a few drop-plasma spams.... i fail to see how they work so well... although i could see them doing some damage. usually IG players i know use the waves of infantry/tanks tak-tik mentioned by EvilGenius1 just now.

Sovereign
16-10-2007, 00:42
I think that pure-Guardsman is a non-starter, same with pure-Tank. IG really need both - Tanks to take objectives, and Guardsmen to hold them. Cutting out either reduces flexibility too much. The new 40k is really based on mobility over static shooting. While Basilisks are nice for range, especially Indirect, they give up necessary mobility.

To start, I would take:

HQ w/ Chimera & Sentinel Squadron
1 Stormtroopers w/ Chimera
1 Veterans w/ Chimera
1 Platoon w/ Command Chimera
1 AF squad
2 Hellhounds
2 Demolishers

This makes most of your force mobile allowing you to take the fight to your enemy.

Reinholt
16-10-2007, 03:13
Sovereign, in my opinion, hit the nail on the head.

In scenarios that aren't going to heavily penalize lacking mobility, the all infantry guard is great. In scenarios that need mobility, however, not so much. Therein lies the problem.

Mandrathrax
16-10-2007, 03:36
well, with doctrine selection, the IG can become quite mobile without the use of tanks. off the top of my head, the doctrines I would go with for that would be:

Drop troops
light infantry
veterans
sharp shooters
rough riders

this way, you get to deep strike or infiltrate, depending on your choice, forgo tanks for your heavy weapons squads, which I'm reasonably sure can deep strike/ infiltrate too, because they're infantry. then you've got snipers in your normal squads, saving any heavy weapons for your command squad choices and improving mobility. on top of that, you've got rough riders which can pretty much flank and harass the enemy at your leisure.

EvilGenius1
16-10-2007, 03:59
1) What about conscript platoons? Should one take them in an IG horde, or just stick to regular guardsmen? Wouldn't a commissar in one of these platoons make it a great tarpit to occupy crazy HtH units?

2) The sheer amount of heavy weapons one can take in a horde would make up for the lack of tanks, wouldn't it?

3)Most armies have a lot of AT weaponry. Isn't one of the best aspects of an IG horde the fact that there are no juicy targets? The opponent really has to shoot\wade through an obscene number of bodies to start racking up victory points. Am I right?

4) Maybe infiltrating veterans and deepstriking storm troopers give this force some mobility?

That oughta stir up some conversation...

theshadowduke
16-10-2007, 04:21
I play an all infantry guard army(mostly), and mobility isnt a problem. As long as you can pritoratize shooting, and are ok with lead elements being wiped out, your ok.

I use Iron Discipline, light infantry, heavy weapon platoons, vets, and chamoline.

505
16-10-2007, 04:45
yes guard can work without tanks. ( am a fan of that now...though I bring out a few tanks just to keep my opponent on his toes)

even when the enemy hits your lines swamp him with men. be sure he designates what squads he is attacking (they sometimes put them all on a squad with like 3 guys left :)
he has better CC fighters then the basic guard but when you throw 20 dice you will whittle him down

Bloodknight
16-10-2007, 06:05
I saw a whole squad of 20 plauge marines buy it to 43 lasguns and four autocannons- they just couldn't kill enough IG, even at close range, to blunt the return volley. The moral of the story- don't get within rapid fire range of a platoon's worth of IG unless you can charge.)

nice anectdotal evidence. In my last game against chaos I had 40 Guardsmen with 4 plasma guns, 2 autocannon and 2 heavy bolters fire at a plaguemarine squad of 7, killing exactly nada. The PM then went straight through my lines and won the game singlehandedly - I could not kill them in CC.

for the record: I am going to take an all infantry Guard (if RR count as infantry in that regard) army to a tournament in two weeks. 1800 points, 149 guys. Diehards, light infantry, rough riders, iron discipline and stormtroopers being the doctrines.

Tanith Ghost
16-10-2007, 11:23
nice anectdotal evidence. In my last game against chaos I had 40 Guardsmen with 4 plasma guns, 2 autocannon and 2 heavy bolters fire at a plaguemarine squad of 7, killing exactly nada. The PM then went straight through my lines and won the game singlehandedly - I could not kill them in CC.


Not my fault other player made sacrifices to their dice and you didn't. ;) :P



for the record: I am going to take an all infantry Guard (if RR count as infantry in that regard) army to a tournament in two weeks. 1800 points, 149 guys. Diehards, light infantry, rough riders, iron discipline and stormtroopers being the doctrines.

Good luck.

Mandrathrax
16-10-2007, 21:43
I regularly enjoy rapid-firing weak, populous units to death why my CSM guys. but an imperial guard army that takes a lot of infantry for troops without very many upgrades on them..... it's just TOO MUCH!

I could picture an army of Blood Angels with a few Baal predators doing it with a little more ease, but me? Nah. I've even stopped taking template weapons against many of them, as my friend who plays IG has this habit of covering his entire deployment zone with guys exactly 2" apart, so i'd rather take autocannons and heavy bolters.

Sovereign
16-10-2007, 21:52
well, with doctrine selection, the IG can become quite mobile without the use of tanks.
I agree that Doctrines are useful to get around the limitations of the basic list, but given recent Codex direction, I think it would be a mistake to depend on them too much.