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chaz100
14-10-2007, 14:42
A friend and I have been having a rather heated..debate about many 40k related things.

1.
He says: Most Imperial Citizens have never heard of a Space Marine, let alone seen one. Marines are mythical soldiers that don't officially exist. They don't appear on Imperial records, they have their own.

I say: Marines are not mythical and are known throughout the Imperium although not frequently seen. You can't fight all those battles without drawing some attention...

2.
He says: The reason CSM have lasted so long is through cloning, conducted by Fabius Bile. There are hardly any Marines left from the Horus Heresy, as Marines can't live that long.

I say: Although uncommon, there are still many Marines that are turning to Chaos in the present day. There is some cloning, but not all Legions use it. Marines can live that long, especially when Chaos helps out.

3.
The Grey Knights are a specialised SM Chapter, but are they part of the Inquisition? Or do they just work closely with them and are connected?

Can you help us out with our little debate?

Chilltouch
14-10-2007, 14:56
1.
Most Imperial Citizens have heard of Space Marines - the legendary defenders of humanity. However, some calm, peaceful planets probably believe them to be myths, while more war-torn planets, such as Cadia, almost accept them as average shoulders. So, you're right.

2.
You're right yet again.

3.
The Grey Knights are the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Malleus - they are essentially the 'special ops' of the Daemon Hunters.

Kage2020
14-10-2007, 14:59
With the standard caveat that this is personal interpretation of the 40k universe, i.e. it is Kageverse...


He says: Most Imperial Citizens have never heard of a Space Marine, let alone seen one. Marines are mythical soldiers that don't officially exist. They don't appear on Imperial records, they have their own.
I would personally argue that while most Imperial Citizens have never seen a Space Marine in "real life" (as it were, obviously this is a fictional universe!), they are aware of broadly what they are in terms of myth. That is, rather than knowing that they are "bionetically enhanced warriors in power armour," they know them as (amongst other names), the "Angels of Death," harbingers of the Emperor's wrath.

At this point, a few flavoursome quotes from the film, Prophecy (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0114194) on the topic of "angels:"


I'm an angel. I kill firstborns while their mamas watch. I turn cities into salt. I even, when I feel like it, rip the souls from little girls, and from now till kingdom come, the only thing you can count on in your existence is never understanding why.
And:


Did you ever notice how in the Bible, when ever God needed to punish someone, or make an example, or whenever God needed a killing, he sent an angel? Did you ever wonder what a creature like that must be like? A whole existence spent praising your God, but always with one wing dipped in blood. Would you ever really want to see an angel?
That rather sums up how the average Imperial Citizen - Jo(anne) Q Imperium - views the "Angels of Death."


You can't fight all those battles without drawing some attention...
The obvious counter-argument here is that how many battles does the Jo(anne) Q Imperium fight in such that they would have more than a passing familiarity with the reality of the Marines?


There are hardly any Marines left from the Horus Heresy, as Marines can't live that long.
GW does not publish demographics on how many original Traitor Marines remain alive from the days of the Horus Heresy.


The Grey Knights are a specialised SM Chapter, but are they part of the Inquisition? Or do they just work closely with them and are connected?
They are the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Malleus. Thus they are a specialised (and secret... ish) Chapter that are attached to the Inquisition, but they are not actually a part of the Inquisition.

Kage

Imperialis_Dominatus
14-10-2007, 15:09
A friend and I have been having a rather heated..debate about many 40k related things.

Not hard to do.


Can you help us out with our little debate?

Fo sho. Might obfusticate things though.


1.
He says: Most Imperial Citizens have never heard of a Space Marine, let alone seen one. Marines are mythical soldiers that don't officially exist. They don't appear on Imperial records, they have their own.

I say: Marines are not mythical and are known throughout the Imperium although not frequently seen. You can't fight all those battles without drawing some attention...

You're right, so is Kage and Chill. They're legendary, figures like the aforementioned terrible angels of death.


2.
He says: The reason CSM have lasted so long is through cloning, conducted by Fabius Bile. There are hardly any Marines left from the Horus Heresy, as Marines can't live that long.

I say: Although uncommon, there are still many Marines that are turning to Chaos in the present day. There is some cloning, but not all Legions use it. Marines can live that long, especially when Chaos helps out.

I say Marines, from what I've seen, are immortal outside a death in battle. There are threads on that though. The Legions take enormous casualties; the fact that they are around today is evidence of use of cloning. In fact, in the 'dex, Fabius Bile used that tech to make deals with -all- the Legions. Or perhaps it was the last 'dex. Or a White Dwarf bio on him.

Ergo, yeah, they use it.


3.
The Grey Knights are a specialised SM Chapter, but are they part of the Inquisition? Or do they just work closely with them and are connected?

They work closely with the Inquisition, yes, but maintain the normal ideals of a Chapter. I'd assume they have the right not to go to aid of a planet. It's just that they won't exercise it. They are the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Malleus, which means to some degree they are very close allies. As close as a Space Marine Chapter can get to any other force.

Never heard of a GK force acting in any way to assert their sovereignty like many Chapters have though. May be wrong.

Argastes
14-10-2007, 16:30
Fabius Bile has made agreements with the traitor legions to provide them with clones, but they also recruit new members and implant them with the geneseed organs in the same way as loyalist marines do. The first 4E CSM codex (the one that just got replaced) contains a description of a young warrior from a medieval world being recruited by the CSM after he displays heroics in battle against loyalist marines (seems that the plains-dwelling warrior peoples of this planet were Chaos-worshippers, while the city-dwellers were loyal to the Emperor, and loyalist marines showed up to help the city-dwellers fight the plains warriors while a CSM champion showed up to lead the plains warriors in battle).

Also, IIRC, the 2E chaos codex contained a description of the process chaos marines use to transform recruits into marines, which is similar in principle to the Imperial process (insofar as it involves implanting the recruit with the artificial organs of a space marine) but much more brutal and hard on the recruit. Where they get the organs is unclear--it seems they get them from several various sources. In the story in the 4E codex, the Chaos champion cuts open a fallen space marine and "pulls out his organs", which seems to imply that the traitor legions get some of their gene-seed by extracting it from dead loyalists! Also, the cloning technology provided by Fabius Bile could be used to clone tissues as well as whole organisms, so maybe that's what his cloning tech is really used for--growing cloned geneseeds for implantation into recruits, rather than cloning whole marines. Actually, cloning whole marines wouldn't make any sense, because if you cloned a marine, you'd just get a normal human. Their actual DNA is not altered in the process of turning them into a marine, they are still genetically human.

EDIT: As for the question of how many traitor marines are still the same ones who fought in the Heresy, GW doesn't provide us with an exact percentage figure, but it seems to be a good number. I believe the most exact term they use to describe the number of original traitors still alive is "many", which to me implies at least, say, one-third of the current total number of chaos marines, probably more. Maybe half? We know that there are at least enough for GW to make them seem to be a considerable part of CSM forces, because their existence is usually stated as if it's a major deal, rather than just a small handful of survivors amongst lots of more recently recruited chaos marines. Based on memory, I'd guess that at least half of all GW fiction about CSMs mentions that this CSM or that CSM remembers the siege of Terra, the defeat of Horus, and so forth.

LordXaras
14-10-2007, 17:48
They are the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Malleus. Thus they are a specialised (and secret... ish) Chapter that are attached to the Inquisition, but they are not actually a part of the Inquisition.So a room (or Chamber, if you wish) is not actually a part of a house? The Grey Knights are the combat wing of the Ordo Malleus, they accept orders from the Inquisitors of the Ordo Malleus who are given access to the GK as a resource. They act alone at times, but I'm having a hard time seeing the Inquisition accepting that a large portion of their troops are gone and have only left a note on the fridge.

To me, the entire point of the Chambers Militant is that the Inquisition will have a standing force that they can always expect support from at a moment's notice. This requires more than "strong ties", since even forces with "strong ties" to eachother can turn down a request for help. The Grey Knights are a Chamber of the Ordo Malleus, thus they are a part of a part of the Inquisition. The Adepta Sororitas and Deathwatch are a bit more vague, but to me the Grey Knights are clearly a part of the Inquisition.

Argastes
14-10-2007, 18:16
So a room (or Chamber, if you wish) is not actually a part of a house? The Grey Knights are the combat wing of the Ordo Malleus, they accept orders from the Inquisitors of the Ordo Malleus who are given access to the GK as a resource. They act alone at times, but I'm having a hard time seeing the Inquisition accepting that a large portion of their troops are gone and have only left a note on the fridge.

To me, the entire point of the Chambers Militant is that the Inquisition will have a standing force that they can always expect support from at a moment's notice. This requires more than "strong ties", since even forces with "strong ties" to eachother can turn down a request for help. The Grey Knights are a Chamber of the Ordo Malleus, thus they are a part of a part of the Inquisition. The Adepta Sororitas and Deathwatch are a bit more vague, but to me the Grey Knights are clearly a part of the Inquisition.

I don't think he ever said that because the GK are not a part of the Inquisition, they can't be relied on to aid the Inquisition. Certainly they do not go off and leave "only a note on the fridge". The GK are described as a Space Marine chapter that is "permanently attached" (the exact term used in the Daemonhunters codex) to the Ordo Malleus. In real-life military terms, a unit that is attached to another unit, even permanently, is still not actually a part of the unit it's attached to.

Now, admittedly, the use of the term "Chamber Militant" does seem to contradict this, because as you point out, that term DOES suggest that the GK are actually a part of the Ordo Malleus and not just attached to it. So we have contradictory data from the official fluff. In such cases, the solution is clear: Everyone believes what they want, and accept that GW fluff is sometimes ambiguous.

Lord Merlin
14-10-2007, 18:21
Marines are only on records of planets where they have fought. There's no reason for them to be secret at all. They provide a morale boost even when just rumors.

MrBigMr
14-10-2007, 18:43
On #2, you can tell your friend that if (Chaos) marines can't live that long, how do you explain Abaddon, Cypher, the Fallen, etc. I don't know if marines of today can live that long, but back in the Day marines were made to last and many legion Chaos marines even today fought in the Great Crusade.

As for cloning, I don't know if that stuff works today anymore. The last time I remember the Imperium trying cloning, they ended up with the Afriel Strains.

The_Patriot
14-10-2007, 18:54
1. From a pure numbers stand point there are trillions and trillions of humans on the million plus worlds of the Imperium. There are, in best circumstances, 1 million Space Marines. The numbers alone show that to your average Imperial citizen a Space Marine is a myth created by the government to enforce local laws and compliance. Also news and information concerning what happens in the entire Imperium is rarely broadcasted beyond their sector with the information sifted up the chain of command. Only those worlds where Space Marines have fought on and the worlds they are based on would know for sure that Marines actually exist. To everyone else, they're a myth.

2. Your friend is correct since in the latest Chaos Space Marine Codex it flat out states that there are very few of the original traitor Marines left. The only options are cloning geneseed or stealing geneseed to make more CSM. Recruits can be regular Chaos worshipers or they can be slaves. Cloning a full Marine is very tricky and very dangerous to do.

3. They are part of the Inquisition and rarely operate independently. This is different from regular Space Marines since once they have fulfill their duty to the Inquisition they go back to what they were normally doing. Grey Knights duty is to protect against Chaos and to maintain their Library. They do not fight the usual wars and battles that Space Marines do since they are highly specialized.

Argastes
14-10-2007, 19:05
Cloning a full Marine is very tricky and very dangerous to do.

Not to mention pointless, because it would only result in a normal human being, not a Marine ;).

The_Patriot
14-10-2007, 19:16
Not to mention pointless, because it would only result in a normal human being, not a Marine ;).

I would disagree since the cloning would replicate the entire person down to the geneseed. The geneseed alters the recruits DNA so his body can easily repair any body damage done including those organs implanted into him. Such alteration of the DNA would be present when you clone a CSM. The problem with cloning is that the results are oftentimes unstable genetically and would disintegrate in short order from the instability of the molecules and atoms that comprise the tissue. At least in my opinion regarding cloning. ;)

MrBigMr
14-10-2007, 19:36
I would disagree since the cloning would replicate the entire person down to the geneseed. The geneseed alters the recruits DNA so his body can easily repair any body damage done including those organs implanted into him. Such alteration of the DNA would be present when you clone a CSM. The problem with cloning is that the results are oftentimes unstable genetically and would disintegrate in short order from the instability of the molecules and atoms that comprise the tissue. At least in my opinion regarding cloning. ;)
Geneseeds are extra organs that work by boosting up the body's natural evolution during puberty. And any genetical manipulation is only on limited levels, like gene-therapy. If you treat a person with gene-therapy and fit him with a pig's heart, and then clone him, you would still end up with the same person as he or she was before all the treatments.

carl
14-10-2007, 20:04
@The_Patriot:I'd guess based on your statments your VERY new to the 40K universe?

It certianly sounds like it as your statemts tottally fail to take account of the fact that the new chaos dex contradicts directly or indirectly 90% of the existing background for chaos, whilst not actually replacing much of it.

Specificlly: Fabius Biles process has, (in the background i have read on it), ben described as a reletive, (reletive to the immense amount of time between the Horus Herasy and now), new process. The majority of the marines for much of that time have not come from Fabius Bile, that means their eithier HH era traitors, or marines that have gone traitor since. SM's don't go bad often in reality. It's probably less than 1% since the HH and we can come up with good guesstimates of the number of SM's since the HH that have been created. Where probably loooking at no more than 50,000 loylists breaking away in reality.

Theirs also the fact that anytime we get a peice of fluff involving CSM's, theirs allways massive numbers of HH era ones present, yet said massive numbers only represent a fraction of the urviving HH era marines. It's not possibble for those statments to be true AND for HH era CSM's to be rare.

In addittion the SW books make it quite clear that and dead 1K Sons marines can be brought back from the dead at any time. Considering that means grabbing their souls back from the Chaos god's I think it's safe to say that it IS possibble for most CSM's to be re-incarnated.

Likewise DoW makes it quite clear that when the Elipha's failed the chaos god's the first time he was taken into the warp and tortured by the chaos gods for millenia before being let lose on the world again. The chaos gods DO send failed traitors back after a sufficent period of punishment, allthough probably only if they feel it's genuinly worth it, (which most CSM's are since their so much better than ordinary humans, traitor human sorcerers probably also fall under the same heading too).

The Grey Knights are AFAIK seperate to the Inquisition, just like the SoB, but the Inquisition can allways call on any and all elements of the grey knights for aid at any time so the end effect is the same as if they where.

And yes most citezens ARE aware of SM's existance, they're practiclly part of the Impireial Creed, being considered in most cases the living empodiments of the emperor, the Primarch's would certianly get a mention being the emperor's sons, and i find it highly unlikly the SM's wouldn't get the same treatment.

Indeed their is fluff specificlly mentioning most impireial citezens being aware of the events of the HH, (allthough most consider it a semi-legendary event). Nontheless they couldn't avoid mentioning the marines, and their are doubtless furthar tales of more recent, (and thus less legendary), nature.

Finnially the Ultramarines protect huge swathes of the eastern part of the gallxy, and a great many planets are under the protection of one chapter or another, and many more will doubtless be passed through by SM's ships on their wauy to check the planets under their protection.

Kage2020
14-10-2007, 20:11
So a room (or Chamber, if you wish) is not actually a part of a house?
To be fair, my distinction was really to head off questions about whether Grey Knights could become Inquisitors by keeping them as affiliated rather than members. That's a topic that comes up with remarkable frequency, though I believe the last time it was about Deathwatch Marines. The exact organisational status is another matter entirely.

Kage

The_Patriot
14-10-2007, 20:16
@carl: Nope, I've been a long time fan of the 40k universe and have read a lot about it. What you see as a contradiction I see as an advancement of the storyline. Given that it's been 10,000 years since the Heresy and the number of attacks upon the Imperium by the Chaos Legions since then attrition takes over. There are two options for a HH era CSM; death or ascension. From the fluff ascension is a rare event leaving death as the normal out for CSM. Logically speaking, after 10,000 years of war there should be very few HH era CSM left like there are very few HH era SM left.

I never said that the people of the Imperium didn't know of Space Marines. I said that they would know of them solely as a myth used to maintain control of the whole Imperium. An Imperial citizen is far, far more likely to meet a Sister of Battle then they would meet a SM. The reason is sheer numbers. Space Marines, at best, are 1 million strong while Sisters of Battle are in the hundreds of millions to a billion. The only Imperial citizens that would know of Space Marines are real are ones that lived on the planets the SM are based on or on worlds where they have fought.

As for cloning, what I stated was my opinion and how I view things. Opinions are not wrong by the standard of what is canon by GW. It's a matter of probability and plausibility. Is it probable that a citizen would know of the events of the HH? Yes, if you account for schooling and indoctrination by the Church. Although, they wouldn't know the exact details since it would be Imperial propaganda created to keep the people in line through fear.

carl
14-10-2007, 20:40
Cheers for clearing that up.

Opinion is fine, I'm just seeing a lot of new players who have clearly never read the older fluff and treat anything written in the latest chaos dex as utterly the truth and that things have allways been that way. That tends to get under my skin. No offense was meant by my comments.

As to the SM=Myth thing:

Like I said, the Ultrmarinmes rule a huige section of space, nearly 25% of the galaxy AFAIk, most of the important world in that area probably get a patroling Ultrmarines ship passing through their ever couple of decades. to those world the SM's WILL be know hard facts. Same to pretty much any world near the eye of terror or any hive worlds that manufactrue arms for the SM's, (good propaganda for the workers, work harder cos your supply the impiriums finest warriors the SM's with weapons). Likewise the closest 100ish worlds to a SM HW or protectrot, (and even the SW's supposedly have 100's of worlds under their protection that they patrol yearly), would see a SM ship passing through the system to somwhere else at least once a centuray.

Add that to the various intersystem traders and baroom gossipping by them and those who talk to them and it's fairly likliy that and of the more civelised worlds are fuully aware of the SM's in a non-mythical sense, After all if you get a SM ship coming through a couple of times per lifetime, or a trader who's seen them shooting his mouth off in a bar every few years it's hard to disbelive in them or treat them as too mythical. hell every pillgram who goes to terra and returns home is likliy to see a few just on terra itself, (the Impireial Fists and a few others keeps shrines and what not their).

The whole idea of "well the HH era CSM's are running low now ater all this time" really DOES NOT work. Mainly because in reality the first 5 crusades should have wiped the survivours of the HH out in reality. Rally unless they've got someway to bring them back from the dead their wouldn't be any left at all after a couple of millenia. And as I noted the SW@s books make it quite clear that if the apporpriate rituals are enacted the chaos gods WILL let a CSM's soul be brought back to the material plane. All they need is a body and equipment, and the 1K Sons can aparently mutate an ordinary cultist into all that so I don't see the isue, (especially since Fabius Bile can now mass produce bodies for them anyway).

LordXaras
14-10-2007, 20:53
To be fair, my distinction was really to head off questions about whether Grey Knights could become Inquisitors by keeping them as affiliated rather than members. That's a topic that comes up with remarkable frequency, though I believe the last time it was about Deathwatch Marines. The exact organisational status is another matter entirely.The exact organisational status is the topic being discussed. However, I agree with the fact that Space Marine Inquisitors should be avoided, but a person does not have to be an Inquisitor to be a part of the Inquisition.

The_Patriot
14-10-2007, 20:54
Cheers for clearing that up.

Opinion is fine, I'm just seeing a lot of new players who have clearly never read the older fluff and treat anything written in the latest chaos dex as utterly the truth and that things have allways been that way. That tends to get under my skin. No offense was meant by my comments.

As to the SM=Myth thing:

Like I said, the Ultrmarinmes rule a huige section of space, nearly 25% of the galaxy AFAIk, most of the important world in that area probably get a patroling Ultrmarines ship passing through their ever couple of decades. to those world the SM's WILL be know hard facts. Same to pretty much any world near the eye of terror or any hive worlds that manufactrue arms for the SM's, (good propaganda for the workers, work harder cos your supply the impiriums finest warriors the SM's with weapons). Likewise the closest 100ish worlds to a SM HW or protectrot, (and even the SW's supposedly have 100's of worlds under their protection that they patrol yearly), would see a SM ship passing through the system to somwhere else at least once a centuray.

Add that to the various intersystem traders and baroom gossipping by them and those who talk to them and it's fairly likliy that and of the more civelised worlds are fuully aware of the SM's in a non-mythical sense, After all if you get a SM ship coming through a couple of times per lifetime, or a trader who's seen them shooting his mouth off in a bar every few years it's hard to disbelive in them or treat them as too mythical. hell every pillgram who goes to terra and returns home is likliy to see a few just on terra itself, (the Impireial Fists and a few others keeps shrines and what not their).

The whole idea of "well the HH era CSM's are running low now ater all this time" really DOES NOT work. Mainly because in reality the first 5 crusades should have wiped the survivours of the HH out in reality. Rally unless they've got someway to bring them back from the dead their wouldn't be any left at all after a couple of millenia. And as I noted the SW@s books make it quite clear that if the apporpriate rituals are enacted the chaos gods WILL let a CSM's soul be brought back to the material plane. All they need is a body and equipment, and the 1K Sons can aparently mutate an ordinary cultist into all that so I don't see the isue, (especially since Fabius Bile can now mass produce bodies for them anyway).

No offense was taken. :)

Ultramarines rule one quarter of the Imperium not the whole galaxy. To those worlds within that sector they would know of Space Marines as being real. To everyone else outside of it, they would be myths used for control. Like you said people will gossip and spread rumors. Gossip and rumors by their very nature are not based upon facts and actually help spread the myth.

A perfect example, is Dracula. Yes, he was a despotic tyrant that drank the blood of his enemies, but through the rumor mill and the gossip factory he became something much, much worse. Keep in mind this was within his lifetime and the only thing remaining today in popular culture is his legacy as a vampire in the undead sense. The real story of Dracula isn't readily known to people unless they actively search for it.

It actually works out quite well when the Chaos gods do not have control over life itself. Lucius isn't reborn into a new copy of his old body, but warps the body of someone else to look like him. It's his curse if you will. The souls of those trapped in his armor are more to torment him for his repeated failures in combat if anything. However, the only two choices remain; death or ascension. How many rank and file CSM have actually ascended to daemonhood? Very, very few so the majority of them have died. Also the SW novels can be Chaos propaganda and not be true at all. ;) As for the five crusades since then I would say that a fraction has survived which is backed up by the fluff in the current Codex. It's an advancement of the storyline in a small way.

Argastes
14-10-2007, 20:54
As for cloning, what I stated was my opinion and how I view things. Opinions are not wrong by the standard of what is canon by GW.

I appreciate that, but how cloning works is not a matter of opinion to begin with. When you clone an organism, you extract it's DNA from the nucleus of one of it's cells, and place that DNA the nucleus of an unfertilized ovum that has had it's own DNA removed. Since the DNA from the organism being cloned is a complete set, rather than the half-set present in a gamete (eggs and sperm), the egg now has the full complement of chromosomes, just as if it had been fertilized by a sperm; it's now a zygote, and will grow into a mature organism.

The genetic material of Space Marine recruits is not altered during their transformation into full-fledged marines. They are implanted with various engineered organs, some of which alter their development via what seem to be artificial hormone analogs (i.e., the biscopea), and some of which seem to simply grow into specialized structures (i.e., the Betcher's Gland). But none of them send out retroviruses or nanomachines to go into the cells of the recruits body, enter the nucleus, snip out sections of his DNA, and splice in new genes--which is the only way that his genetic makeup could possibly be altered. This is the reason that the progenoids are necessary for perpetuating a chapter; they are special organs that store genetic information from all the other geneseeds in a single location, precisely because that information is NOT written into a marine's own DNA. If the genetic information from the various gene-seed organs was contained in a marine's own DNA, then the progenoids would be unnecessary, since the information could be recovered from any part of a dead marine's body--a skin cell, a muscle cell, a hair, a drop of saliva, whatever. That's not the case. A marine has two types of cells in his body: His own natural cells, which contain perfectly normal, 100% human DNA, and the engineered cells of the gene-seed organs, which contain entirely artificial DNA. If you took a sample of genetic material from a space marine (provided you didn't take it from one of the gene-seed organs themselves, of course) and compared it to the genetic material of a regular human, you wouldn't be able to tell which sample came from the marine.

So no, cloning a marine would not replicate the gene-seed organs as well, because clones are grown from the DNA of a single cell and the genetic material pertinent to those organs is simply not present in the DNA of a marine's cells.

EDIT: As for the Ultramarines ruling a quarter of the Imperium... :wtf:? It's explicitly stated in practically every Ultramarines-related source that the Empire (or Realm) of Ultramar comprises less than a dozen worlds: Macragge itself, Espandor, Calth, Prandium, Talassar, Quintarn, Masali, Tarentus, Iax, and maybe one or two others I've forgotten. NOWHERE does it say they rule anything even close to one-quarter of the Imperium, which would be 250,000 planets!

Col. Dash
14-10-2007, 20:55
Most of the current traitor legions are still the original guys, they have taken in some new recruits obviously and that was the purpose of the IW attack in Storm of Iron, to grab more geneseed. Its been said in many many places that time works differently in the eye of chaos. Also its been said that effectively speaking, space marines are immortal and will not die of old age. That said, most will eventually bite it in other ways however.
Imp citizens know of space marines but rarely have they seen them, but as someone said they are legendary representations of the emperor.
Someone said above me that citizens know of the Heresy, thats wrong. The Imperium does not allow information of chaos spread. That is a need to know basis only and if you know about it without undue reason, you are obviously a collaborator and terminated. Most chaos cultists, do not know they are even chaos cultists. There has been alot of fluff reflecting that. Even guardsmen who encounter chaos in the old grittier days would have been terminated or kept away from anyone else who would listen. The reason the space wolves and the inquisition will not work together and almost went to war with each other stems from a chaos attack where the wolves and IG fought a major battle side by side and eventually won. The Inq moved in and sterilized the remaining population and guardsmen and moved them into what basically amounts to concentration camps on the southern continent and brought in new colonists. The Wolf was horrified by this affront to his honorable allies in the fight and how they were treated and thus started the rivalry.

The_Patriot
14-10-2007, 20:59
I appreciate that, but how cloning works is not a matter of opinion to begin with. When you clone an organism, you extract it's DNA from the nucleus of one of it's cells, and place that DNA the nucleus of an unfertilized ovum that has had it's own DNA removed. Since the DNA from the organism being cloned is a complete set, rather than the half-set present in a gamete (eggs and sperm), the egg now has the full complement of chromosomes, just as if it had been fertilized by a sperm; it's now a zygote, and will grow into a mature organism.

The genetic material of Space Marine recruits is not altered during their transformation into full-fledged marines. They are implanted with various engineered organs, some of which alter their development via what seem to be artificial hormone analogs (i.e., the biscopea), and some of which seem to simply grow into specialized structures (i.e., the Betcher's Gland). But none of them send out retroviruses or nanomachines to go into the cells of the recruits body, enter the nucleus, snip out sections of his DNA, and splice in new genes--which is the only way that his genetic makeup could possibly be altered. This is the reason that the progenoids are necessary for perpetuating a chapter; they are special organs that store genetic information from all the other geneseeds in a single location, precisely because that information is NOT written into a marine's own DNA. If the genetic information from the various gene-seed organs was contained in a marine's own DNA, then the progenoids would be unnecessary, since the information could be recovered from any part of a dead marine's body--a skin cell, a muscle cell, a hair, a drop of saliva, whatever. That's not the case. A marine has two types of cells in his body: His own natural cells, which contain perfectly normal, 100% human DNA, and the engineered cells of the gene-seed organs, which contain entirely artificial DNA. If you took a sample of genetic material from a space marine (provided you didn't take it from one of the gene-seed organs themselves, of course) and compared it to the genetic material of a regular human, you wouldn't be able to tell which sample came from the marine.

So no, cloning a marine would not replicate the gene-seed organs as well, because clones are grown from the DNA of a single cell and the genetic material pertinent to those organs is simply present in the DNA of a marine's cells.

Which is entirely your opinion since the older fluff states that the DNA is changed to accept the new organs. Keep in mind the first rule of GW's fluff. ;)


Most of the current traitor legions are still the original guys, they have taken in some new recruits obviously and that was the purpose of the IW attack in Storm of Iron, to grab more geneseed. Its been said in many many places that time works differently in the eye of chaos. Also its been said that effectively speaking, space marines are immortal and will not die of old age. That said, most will eventually bite it in other ways however.
Imp citizens know of space marines but rarely have they seen them, but as someone said they are legendary representations of the emperor.
Someone said above me that citizens know of the Heresy, thats wrong. The Imperium does not allow information of chaos spread. That is a need to know basis only and if you know about it without undue reason, you are obviously a collaborator and terminated. Most chaos cultists, do not know they are even chaos cultists. There has been alot of fluff reflecting that. Even guardsmen who encounter chaos in the old grittier days would have been terminated or kept away from anyone else who would listen. The reason the space wolves and the inquisition will not work together and almost went to war with each other stems from a chaos attack where the wolves and IG fought a major battle side by side and eventually won. The Inq moved in and sterilized the remaining population and guardsmen and moved them into what basically amounts to concentration camps on the southern continent and brought in new colonists. The Wolf was horrified by this affront to his honorable allies in the fight and how they were treated and thus started the rivalry.

There is nothing in the fluff that suggests that Space Marines are, in fact, immortal. They are extremely long lived, but the curse of humanity is the fact their lives end. It's just a matter of when.

Also, the Church and the schools play up on the sacrifice of the Emperor against the traitors as an example of how a citizen should live their lives. Like I said people know of the heresy, but they are getting the Imperial propaganda version which is definitely not the truth.

MadDoc
14-10-2007, 21:14
Which is entirely your opinion since the older fluff states that the DNA is changed to accept the new organs.

Care to provide a reference for that? :eyebrows:

I'm interested, as the first material which introduces the bio-engineering (including the use of Geneseed (a rather unfortunate choice of name by GW which some people tend to read too much into)) of Marines would tend to disagree with that assertion (and being the first fluff reference it would be the oldest fluff reference).

The_Patriot
14-10-2007, 21:26
Care to provide a reference for that? :eyebrows:

I'm interested, as the first material which introduces the bio-engineering (including the use of Geneseed (a rather unfortunate choice of name by GW which some people tend to read too much into)) of Marines would tend to disagree with that assertion (and being the first fluff reference it would be the oldest fluff reference).

I remember reading it in the second ed rulebook many, many years ago. I don't have a copy of it, so I can't say exactly where at in the book.

Kage2020
14-10-2007, 21:33
I must admit that I cannot remember any references that suggest that the Marines are "genetically engineered," though Gav Thorpe did use the term "genetically re-engineered" in Angels of Darkness. Of course, it's been a long while since I read much of this material. ;)

Kage

StefDa
14-10-2007, 21:46
2: Remember, the Traitor Legions fled into the Eye of Terror (which is, in effect, a portal to the Warp). In the Warp, time flows differently, so if one thousand years have passed since a Chaos Marine entered the Warp, and he re-emerges, there may only have passed five minutes for him, or a year, or a hundred. Just because 10.000 years have passed in the real universe, it doesn't mean that the original Traitor Marines have been around for the actual 10.000 years - they may perhaps only feel it like a thousand? Besides, Chaos is helping out, so that would probably greatly extend their lifespans.

carl
14-10-2007, 21:50
@the Patriot: my poit with the rest of the impirium is that enough people will see SM's and talk about it that only idots would be able to claim their myths.

For a modern day example take a lookn at the JFK assasination.

We don't really know what happened, and we probably never will be able to say exactly what the truth is givn all the theroy's. But lets just say that the conspiracy theroists are wrong, (I think every vershion of it conspiriacy or supposed truth has holes in it myself, don't belive any of them;)), and it was a random job.

That dosen't change the fact that most of the USA population belives he was hit by the CIA or somone else in the goverment.

That would be a case of a myth, (that the CIA assasinated JFK), becoming so well known and belived that it effectivlly becomes fact regrdless of the truth.

given the tens of thousands of systems that must see a SM ship every year and the sheer amount of barroom gossip from ship captains and som crew members, it's a case of so many people knowing about it or climing to know of them that they become fact through popular opinion.

The crusades: Their's actually been 13 black crusades, my point is however that even 5 would have exuahsted the supply of HH era CSM with ease. We know for a fact that hasn't been the case, (and Fabius's cloning process couldn't creat 1k Sons anyway, if they aren't origionols, they don't exist, it's that sinple with them). In reality for any HH era CSM to exist after about the 34th millenium the CSMs have to be easilly reincarnatable, at which point the whole "HH era CSM< are rare doen't work because it's clearly not true.

In simple terms one way or another, for their to be adequte CSM's left by the time Fabius Came up with the cloning method, so that the various Black Crusades could actually have hapened, and that all the fluff atround the time of Fabius inventing the cloning could happen their had to be a hell of a LOT of HH era CSM's, if theirs so many let then, their should still be most of them left now one way or the other. They can't be rare, and still have luanched 13 black crusades, it's that simple, if they where suffering losses at that rate, most of the black crusades would have had far too few CSM's for them to be as numerous, (in those crusades), as the fluf indicates.

Argastes
14-10-2007, 22:02
I remember reading it in the second ed rulebook many, many years ago. I don't have a copy of it, so I can't say exactly where at in the book.

I assume you mean the 2nd Edition Codex Imperialis, not the rulebook, since it was the CI rather than the rulebook which contained all the fluff in 2nd Edition. At any rate, I do have a copy of it, and here's what it says about the creation of Space Marines:

"A Space Marine begins his training when he is little more than a boy. At the same time, a series of genetically tailored organs are carefully implanted into his body. These act upon his body's natural chemistry in conjunction with hypno-therapy and physical training. For example, the implantation of a small organ called the Biscopea greatly accentuates the effect of hormones controlling muscle growth, and as a result space marines grow to be tremendously strong.

All space marine implants work in conjunction with the body tissues to stimulate natural powers or to create powers which are wholly new. These implants will not work in a fully grown adult, they rely on the body's natural growth processes to incorporate them into the space marine's physiology.

Organ implantation goes hand in hand with a harsh routine of physical and spiritual training. This is achieved by means of hypnotic suggestion, prolonged meditation, vigorous spiritual tests, and gradual initiation into the cult rites of the chapter. All of these processes serve to harden the Marine's mental powers and sharpen his instinctual senses."

That's all the CI says about the creation of space marines. There's no mention of genetic alteration of the marines themselves. I can't say for sure that there's no piece of old fluff that doesn't say marines are genetically engineered, but it would have to be REALLY old, like RT-era old, because I've been playing 40K since 1995 and I've never heard that before. And I own all three 2nd Edition SM codices in addition to the CI that came with the boxed set, and all four books describe the process in the same way: Implantation of artificial organs during puberty, with no mention of genetic engineering.

The_Patriot
14-10-2007, 22:02
@the Patriot: my poit with the rest of the impirium is that enough people will see SM's and talk about it that only idots would be able to claim their myths.

For a modern day example take a lookn at the JFK assasination.

We don't really know what happened, and we probably never will be able to say exactly what the truth is givn all the theroy's. But lets just say that the conspiracy theroists are wrong, (I think every vershion of it conspiriacy or supposed truth has holes in it myself, don't belive any of them;)), and it was a random job.

That dosen't change the fact that most of the USA population belives he was hit by the CIA or somone else in the goverment.

That would be a case of a myth, (that the CIA assasinated JFK), becoming so well known and belived that it effectivlly becomes fact regrdless of the truth.

given the tens of thousands of systems that must see a SM ship every year and the sheer amount of barroom gossip from ship captains and som crew members, it's a case of so many people knowing about it or climing to know of them that they become fact through popular opinion.

The crusades: Their's actually been 13 black crusades, my point is however that even 5 would have exuahsted the supply of HH era CSM with ease. We know for a fact that hasn't been the case, (and Fabius's cloning process couldn't creat 1k Sons anyway, if they aren't origionols, they don't exist, it's that sinple with them). In reality for any HH era CSM to exist after about the 34th millenium the CSMs have to be easilly reincarnatable, at which point the whole "HH era CSM< are rare doen't work because it's clearly not true.

In simple terms one way or another, for their to be adequte CSM's left by the time Fabius Came up with the cloning method, so that the various Black Crusades could actually have hapened, and that all the fluff atround the time of Fabius inventing the cloning could happen their had to be a hell of a LOT of HH era CSM's, if theirs so many let then, their should still be most of them left now one way or the other. They can't be rare, and still have luanched 13 black crusades, it's that simple, if they where suffering losses at that rate, most of the black crusades would have had far too few CSM's for them to be as numerous, (in those crusades), as the fluf indicates.

Your point is valid but only for the Ultramar sector, but even then most of the worlds in that sector have not seen a Space Marine. They would know that the Ultramarines exist because they are the government and they project their power throughout that sector. Other sectors will not see Space Marines on a regular basis and probably haven't seen them since the Great Crusade.

Your use of JFK is amusing since you think that communications in the Imperium are as good as they are now. The communications of the Imperium is roughly equal to what our communications were in the 1860's with everything important being carried by a courier. Long range communications that encompass the entire Imperium does not exist. Local subspace communication is there, but long range is not. A good example of a myth is the one I gave since it's parallel to what communications are like in 40k.

Even with 13 crusades there would be survivors from the original Heresy. Some people are just naturally lucky in avoiding death and it has happened in numerous wars since time began. My father was one of those people during his tour in Vietnam. He endured a lot ranging from getting taken prisoner to being tortured while 62 of his platoon mates never made it out of the Delta. I accounted for situations like that in my logic regarding the numbers of Heresy era CSM and SM.


I assume you mean the 2nd Edition Codex Imperialis, not the rulebook, since it was the CI rather than the rulebook which contained all the fluff in 2nd Edition. At any rate, I do have a copy of it, and here's what it says about the creation of Space Marines:

"A Space Marine begins his training when he is little more than a boy. At the same time, a series of genetically tailored organs are carefully implanted into his body. These act upon his body's natural chemistry in conjunction with hypno-therapy and physical training. For example, the implantation of a small organ called the Biscopea greatly accentuates the effect of hormones controlling muscle growth, and as a result space marines grow to be tremendously strong.

All space marine implants work in conjunction with the body tissues to stimulate natural powers or to create powers which are wholly new. These implants will not work in a fully grown adult, they rely on the body's natural growth processes to incorporate them into the space marine's physiology.

Organ implantation goes hand in hand with a harsh routine of physical and spiritual training. This is achieved by means of hypnotic suggestion, prolonged meditation, vigorous spiritual tests, and gradual initiation into the cult rites of the chapter. All of these processes serve to harden the Marine's mental powers and sharpen his instinctual senses."

That's all the CI says about the creation of space marines. There's no mention of genetic alteration of the marines themselves. I can't say for sure that there's no piece of old fluff that doesn't say marines are genetically engineered, but it would have to be REALLY old, like RT-era old, because I've been playing 40K since 1995 and I've never heard that before. And I own all three 2nd Edition SM codices in addition to the CI that came with the boxed set, and all four books describe the process in the same way: Implantation of artificial organs during puberty, with no mention of genetic engineering.

Thank ya and I misremembered. Point conceded regarding them. :)

carl
14-10-2007, 22:22
a few more points:

1. Lke I said, any world withing so mny light years of a SM homeworld or a world under the protection of a SM chapter, (and all have some worlds under their protection), is going to see a SM ship on it's patrol to or from those places fairly ofetn.

2. Communications are horribble, but theirs littrially millions of freighters passing from world to world all the time. If they see a SM ship they WILL chatter about it in a bar. Hell, those who use the Belarius House Navigators, (and theirs only 12 real houses, the minor ones are all subserviant to the big 12), will have seen SM's aboard theirs ships.

Whats talked about in bars WILL get around, and if theirs a stream of them, (and their will be with so many freighters moving around), talking about SM's they've seen then your talking a lot of rumours. Yes they might only get a captian and crew in every year or so like that. but thats all they need. Hell, look at all the mythical beats in the medivial times that everyone belived where real despite no one ever actuall having seen one for real...

3. Nice anolgy, and without trying to belittile your example, it misses my point. The prolem is that we KNOW every single black crusade including the present one included/inculdes according to the fluff 1000's of HH era CSM's, and that 1000's are killed in each crusade. 13*1000 is still more HH era CSM's than survived the seige of terra. It's not possibble for them to have l;ost that many per crusade and still be present in those numbers.

More importantly. If their where still 10000's left at the time Fabius invented his cloning trick. In which case their should be 10000's now.

Basiclly eithier their rare now, and where thus rare when fabius started cloning. Or they where numerous, (even a 1000 is a lot when you consider how few survived the seige of terra), when fabius invented cloning, and thus should still be numerous, (if slightly diminished), now. You can't have it both ways because it would man the HH era CSM's took abnormally large numbers of losses after fabius invented cloning, but not before. Considering those still alive would be GOD at staying alive if they don't re-incarnate, then theirs no reason that makes sense in any way shape or form.

Kage2020
14-10-2007, 22:30
13*1000 is still more HH era CSM's than survived the seige of terra.
Are you sure about that? Or, rather, even if what you said is true with regards to the Siege of Terra, does that mean that all Traitor Marines were present at the Siege during that time?

Kage

Argastes
14-10-2007, 22:39
How do we know that such a small number of traitor marines survived the siege?

The_Patriot
14-10-2007, 22:40
@carl: 1. Which is exactly what I said. ;)

2. Which all of those people on the ships are going to be spreading rumors in a very similar fashion to space sirens etc... They're only going to fuel the rumor mill which by definition is not based upon fact. Speaking of which if spacers spread tales of space sirens are they in fact telling us that there really are space sirens or are they merely passing along a rumor that has no basis in fact? It can go either way. To the average citizen of the Imperium it will be the latter which is why they think that Space Marines are a myth used to scare children into behaving much like you do now with threats of Santa Claus giving them coal.

3. Actually, we don't know since GW has not stated any numbers. What is known that there are very few HH era SM and CSM left. Most of the CSM have died out which is why the new codex focuses upon renegades instead of the legions.

carl
14-10-2007, 22:53
I'll continue this argument in the morning after i've had some sleep;).

p.s. we seem to be reachng an agreement one bit at a time.

Imperialis_Dominatus
14-10-2007, 23:48
And here I am to screw it up.



3. Nice anolgy, and without trying to belittile your example, it misses my point. The prolem is that we KNOW every single black crusade including the present one included/inculdes according to the fluff 1000's of HH era CSM's, and that 1000's are killed in each crusade. 13*1000 is still more HH era CSM's than survived the seige of terra. It's not possibble for them to have l;ost that many per crusade and still be present in those numbers.

Perhaps thousands would die as Chaos Marines are presented now. Personally I believe that Latd was a much better representation of the CSM: CSM spread far and wide, granting support and hitting power alongside daemons and using thousands and thousands and thousands of times more regular humans, aliens, mutants, etc. to act as meatshields. It is safe to say that literally millions of these lesser servants died. However, how many CSM actually died... I've never seen such figures.

MadDoc
15-10-2007, 02:04
Thank ya and I misremembered. Point conceded regarding them. :)

Fair enough. I thought that might have been the case. ;)

LexxBomb
15-10-2007, 09:10
[QUOTE=chaz100;2002805]
3. The Grey Knights are a specialised SM Chapter, but are they part of the Inquisition? Or do they just work closely with them and are connected?
QUOTE]

the Grey Knights have now became a chamber militant of the Ordo Malleus. Originaly they we just a chapter tasked with the secret mission of stopping deamonic incursions into the Imperium. until resently the Ordo Malleus was a secret inner circle within the Inqusition.

Wolflord Havoc
15-10-2007, 14:39
A friend and I have been having a rather heated..debate about many 40k related things.

1.
He says: Most Imperial Citizens have never heard of a Space Marine, let alone seen one. Marines are mythical soldiers that don't officially exist. They don't appear on Imperial records, they have their own.

I say: Marines are not mythical and are known throughout the Imperium although not frequently seen. You can't fight all those battles without drawing some attention...

I think that they are generally known about by the majority of Imperial Citizens and viewed with a sense of Awe and if you were to see one....well there is a 99.9% that you are living in interesting times!!!




2.
He says: The reason CSM have lasted so long is through cloning, conducted by Fabius Bile. There are hardly any Marines left from the Horus Heresy, as Marines can't live that long.

I say: Although uncommon, there are still many Marines that are turning to Chaos in the present day. There is some cloning, but not all Legions use it. Marines can live that long, especially when Chaos helps out.

I would suspect that with the exception of Thousand Sons and possibly the Death Guard that those Heresy era Marines that remain are demonically gifted leaders or those such as Kharn of the World Eaters and Arkos of the Alpha Legion.

The majority however would have fallen in battle/become corrupted/become possessed.

What remains of the Original Fallen Legions are still probably capable of producing new warriors. Some more than others I suspect.

Chaos Marines are not as fussy when it comes to using geneseed as their Imperial counterparts (who try to ensure that the recipiants are pure and compatable etc) and would think nothing of a 'neophyte' for whom the implants did not work. By all accounts pre heresy induction to the Legions was not limited to 12 - 16 year olds - the potential long term results of implanting the 19 organs into an adult not readily apparent at the time.



3.
The Grey Knights are a specialised SM Chapter, but are they part of the Inquisition? Or do they just work closely with them and are connected?

Can you help us out with our little debate?

I imagine that if the Inquisition are the CIA/MI5 then the Grey Knights are the Delta Force/SAS. Basically they are an autonomous force (like any Chapter) that works 'hand in glove' with the Inquisition. I would Imagine that the Ordo Malleus (or others within the Imperium such as Space Marine Chapters) would 'Request' Aid from the Order and the Order itself would send what they deemed an appropriate number of Grey Knights to deal with the threat.
These requests would be met with answeres ranging from

'No send in the Guard and then execute any survivors'

to

'Yes Great Wolf Grimnar? Angron and some Bloodletters you say? Right we are sending 100 of our best Knights, now the address again.....Armeggedon..is that 2 'Gs' in Armeggedon or just 1?'.

pookie
15-10-2007, 15:20
A friend and I have been having a rather heated..debate about many 40k related things.

1.
He says: Most Imperial Citizens have never heard of a Space Marine, let alone seen one. Marines are mythical soldiers that don't officially exist. They don't appear on Imperial records, they have their own.

I say: Marines are not mythical and are known throughout the Imperium although not frequently seen. You can't fight all those battles without drawing some attention...

2.
He says: The reason CSM have lasted so long is through cloning, conducted by Fabius Bile. There are hardly any Marines left from the Horus Heresy, as Marines can't live that long.

I say: Although uncommon, there are still many Marines that are turning to Chaos in the present day. There is some cloning, but not all Legions use it. Marines can live that long, especially when Chaos helps out.

3.
The Grey Knights are a specialised SM Chapter, but are they part of the Inquisition? Or do they just work closely with them and are connected?

Can you help us out with our little debate?

1: Sm are not mythical, but are highly un;ily to have been seen by the vast majority of the Imperium, they also are known under many names, such as Angles etc.

2. Thats wrong, the HH fluff states that a SM is practically immortal, unless they die in battle its unlikly they would die of old age ( although its prob just because they die before getting old!) although ask your friend how the Alpha Leion manage to survive as long as they do - when they aint based in the EoT.

3. The Grey Knights are the millitant arm of the Ordo Malleus, they are in effect a Inq SM Chapter.