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jimbob78
05-09-2005, 15:51
How to deal with a bloodthirster? How do you players deal with bloodthirsters or any other large insanely powerful creatures such as; lords on dragons and other greater daemons?
I feel that the vampire's 'hand of dust' approach is too unreliable as if it fails, the expensive vampire lord level character/necro is toast.



Thanks

Jimbob78

ObiWan
05-09-2005, 15:57
I guess it depends on what army you are using. Your army being....?

jimbob78
05-09-2005, 16:00
I'm talking generally eg: different tactics for each army and those favoured by certain generals.

Ethereal Alpaca
05-09-2005, 16:12
Artillary is always the easiest option; large monsters will always fall prey to cannons of any kind, bolt throwers and pin-point accurate stone throwers.

Another option is to ignore them enitirely. You can probably guess why this isn't such a good idea all the time. ;)

bored1
05-09-2005, 16:56
each is handled differently by each opposing army, so there are few blanket statements. For example, a frenzied, large target flyer should be presented with a single charge option. From this, counter-charges, or further baiting could be setup. Or wood elves could put a treeman ancient in front of him w/ the annoyance of netlings. Or empire could shoot him.

In the case of a lord on dragon, again it will vary based on what list you're using. Summoned zombies to the rear are annoying, as they start with +6 combat res most probably, and probably won't be going anywhere soon. Cannons are a good answer. Foot of Gork or multistomp could work. A couple poisoned swarms could do the trick.

You need to ask a better question.

DisturbeD_
05-09-2005, 22:53
like bored1 said if you do this right you can control where he goeswith small fast cheap units, sure he may not die, but he won't be killing of any of your troops, this is best done with VC as they can raise :D

Eldacar
06-09-2005, 06:20
Bloodthirsters: Shoot them. Stay away from them and kill the rest of the army. Use area-effect spells to slow it down. That sort of thing.

Except for once when Eltharion killed it, once when Tyrion killed it, and once when a High Elf Prince charged in and somehow, though a spate of impossibly good dice rolls, managed to take it down.

Wood Elves can do it the easiest, I think. The Annoyance of Netlings really comes in handy here, since almost all of the Bloodthirster's attacks would be missing.

DrkAp0stle
06-09-2005, 13:57
Combat Resolution, I faced a thirster with my vamp counts and beat it with a unit of skeletons with a necromancer in the unit. The thirst fluffed his rolls and I got 2 wounds off onto him(go necromancer and skeleton champ!) he lost because of resolutin and failed his stability test.


-Ap0stle

Neknoh
06-09-2005, 18:56
Well... dealing with Bloodthirsters, Great Unclean Ones, Lords of Change and Keepers of Seecrets are four different things, let me explain.

If you choose to ignore them like you can do with the GuO (not a very wise decision IMHO since he does have some pretty nasty spells), they will wreck havok, either by crushing your units one by one simply by slaughtering troops, or, they will wreck magic havock and play rank brakers when knights charge the front... or both combined.

Ok, so, do not ignore them at all is my advice, but, a good idea might be to avoid contact with the GuO (the only one possible to avoid contact with).

Ok, let's bait them then... no wait... that only works on Bloodthirsters, and not always.

Ok... artillery, yeah, that'l do it... except for the Great Unclean One who often can survive two Cannonballs, sometimes even three before going down... and the Lord of Change who can improve his Wardsave (when in DL) and actually has no problem getting to the warmachines.

Hrmm... challenge it... although... the only one that is not impossible to kill in a challenge is the LoC, I very much advice against challenging Bloodthirsters and Keepers of Seecrets.


Ok, so, we now have gotten the four ways of "dealing" with them.

GuO- Avoid and block its spells
BoK- Bait and flank, just watch out, if there are more than one unit within 20", he can charge thatone instead, and, he is a Large Target, so, he can see and fly past interfering units)
KoS- A cannonball or two to the head should do it, there is only so much pain to be gigged at.
LoC- Bring it down in CC

MarcoPollo
07-09-2005, 01:29
I am also aware of the points cost of a Blood Thirster. You will need to realize that your army has 600+ points with which to deal with it. At worst, you will need to make sure that it doesn't get too many points off you while you can outmanouever the rest of his army. Just try to imagine what is left for your opponent after he spends on such a huge point sink.

MSU (multiple small unit) tactics can be good against these behemoths. You just need to pay attention to psychology. Terror and panic can really chew up these kinds of armies so be careful with this strategy.

Gabacho Mk.II
07-09-2005, 06:25
The most 'common' way that I have learned to deal with large monsters and baddies is to use several units of skirmishers against it.

I mainly game with Lizardmen [my other armies are HElves and Bretonnians], and for the most part, 4+ units of skirmishing Skinks are the death to Daemons and monsters.


Before, I used to rely on magic and champion challenges in order to at least curb the damage a Greater Daemon and the like normally cause in a battle. After several games, I found that when you start causing a few wounds to these baddies, their controlling player begins to look for cover...

Otherwise, bring YOUR OWN large monster, and attempt to cause some mayhem of your own.... ;)

Flea
07-09-2005, 12:00
The only time I encountered a Bloodthirster, I was playing a pure Kislev army, as an experiment. The opponent had a Bloodthirster, 2 units of 12 Khorne warriors, one of those was chosen, a chariot, and giant. (Yes I know the army was illegal, but we forgot at the time, as he rushed to make his list, since he wanted to kill me, since I decimated his bothers undead army.)

So I let him move towards me, he was making sure to keep out of charge range with the BT. He moves his chosen and other warriors. When he is in range, I charged the chosen with a unit of Winged lancers, and a normal cavalry unit (forgot the name) and the special guy, Boris. At the same time his other warriors were charged.

The Chosen are completely killed, and I overrun with the winged lancers and boris into the BT. And in the next combat, I take it down to 2 wounds. He kills Boris with a killing blow, and dies from combat res.


So I suggest either mass charging with strong people, or shooting with multiwound things like cannons. Or trying to use combat res against it.

Commissar Vaughn
07-09-2005, 12:10
van horstmans speculum. nuff said,

gets a bit trickier for other armies but to be honest theres few monsters capable of beating a ranked up infantry regiment, especially if it has a hero with a big word in it.
i almost killed it with a dark elf noble with sword of might once. knocked it down to one wound and finished it off with my sorceress. its not impossible...

skavenguy13
07-09-2005, 20:06
Skaven can deal very easily with monsters if they have a bit of clan Skryre troops: ratling gun, cannon, warlock. D6 S5 and 2D6 S5 will get rid of them in no time. Cannons are a no-brainer. And against T5 monsters, ratling guns (if used correctly) could make about 3 wounds on them, so 2 ratlings should be able to weaken them enough to kill them in CC.

Against monsters with bad save (4+ or worst) poison is your friend. Swarms are extremely good at this because they're also unbreakable and if the monster doesn't kill enough, they can win CC and have a chance to run the monster down!

This was rather due to luck, but my 4 censer bearers once killed an hydra (6 wounds!) on a charge.

Any hero with bands of power and a good ward save could try to beat it 1-on-1, but the monster should be weakened first because the hero might not survive. I guess rat-ogres with S5 could also be good, but they still have a good chance of losing or failing the terror test. And also, the storm banner is often a good choice against flying monsters as they will be slowed big time, you have the chance to position yourself.

That's about it for skaven tactics vs. big monsters.

Frodo34x
07-09-2005, 20:10
Some guy who used to regularly write for WD did an article "How to kill a bloodthirster". His end decision was to ping it constantly with poisoned skink attacks.

Inquisitor Maul
07-09-2005, 22:33
I remember that article. Damn, it was a fun read :D

Frodo34x
08-09-2005, 21:11
That whole series was excellent, and very funny. "Dansing with wolves" and "What do you get when you mix a bloodletter, a porsche and a greyhound?" spring to mind.

Hywel
08-09-2005, 23:12
Poison is effective. Notably against a bloodthirster are mounted daemonettes as they go first and have daemonic attacks, thus negating the ward.
You're not going to kill the thing with one unit of them, but they're very effective at knocking some wounds off and have the same charge range.

This is of course army specific. I often like to throw them a cheap ranked unit that'll hold a while. 20 empire infantry will be getting a decent +5 to kick off with and if the general and BSB are near, chances are the gribbly is gonna be wasting his time chewing 7pt troops.

Izram
09-09-2005, 00:00
Poison is really the bane of large creatures. Kind of makes me angry that 2 units of skink blowpipers will take down my GUO in 2 turns on average, just because they wiped some toothpicks on a frogs ass.

Really, big monsters dont scare me much, except for the damned tzeentch lord with golden eye on dragon. That PoS is impossible to kill, and with two breath weapons and spells it can basically do whatever it wants, not needing to engage at all.

I have no idea how to stop it with my vampire counts or Nugle with any sort of reliability.


EDIT- and the suggestions of ranked units and other low manouverability units really dont work against anything but a frenzied creature.

taer
09-09-2005, 04:10
EDIT- and the suggestions of ranked units and other low manouverability units really dont work against anything but a frenzied creature.

Ha. The handicap of Frenzy is very easy to avoid with a bloodthirster since it is a monster and you need line of sight in order to declare a charge, or be forced to charge with Frenzy. The thing is, while he may be able to see over the heads of enemy and friends alike, he can't see out of a 90 degree sight arc. So, by keeping him facing away from the action until the turn before you want him to charge, and then making sure he has line of sight to multiple enemy units (preferably their flank), then you've effectively avoided being baited.

However, cannons make Bloodthirsters cry. ;)

Ganymede
09-09-2005, 05:06
Charging a bloodthirster with a fully ranked unit, prefferably with the warbanner, is always a good idea. Odds are you will win by a couple points... and every win brings you closer to more wounds from combat res and lappng around.

Lordmonkey
09-09-2005, 10:51
Combat resolution. i've seen a unit of 12 zombies make a lord of change dissapear because it fluffed it's attack rolls and failed the instability check.

*edit* I love my zombies ^-^

Griefbringer
09-09-2005, 11:06
Against all sorts of Big Raving Monstrous Frenzied Killer Units (TM), there is always the lovely old "boys in the bush" approach - a couple of skirmishers set on the edge of the forest, to tempt in a charge. They will get badly smacked, but the pursuing/overrunning units is hopefully going to end up somewhere in the middle of the forest, with nobody to kill there!

Hywel
09-09-2005, 13:26
Ha. The handicap of Frenzy is very easy to avoid with a bloodthirster since it is a monster and you need line of sight in order to declare a charge, or be forced to charge with Frenzy.

Oh yes, the famous bloodthirsters that are trained to fly backwards at the Estalian Flying School of Vienna.

Always a family favourite when they turn up.

Sebish
09-09-2005, 15:27
Well..I'd say you take it down with a cannon ball. Would'nt be much of a problem, except the great unclean one.

Makaber
09-09-2005, 15:57
Playing beastmen, my options are pretty limited. Usually, I throw heaps of beastmen at them, eventually hopefully winning out on combat resolution. I'm not all that concerned really, it usually work out.

shadowprince
11-09-2005, 02:52
lol i agree actuallt buggest monster have ever used is an eagle

Neknoh
11-09-2005, 07:21
Eldacar, you must remember though, that a single hit from the Bloodthirster might spell your doom, not to mention that if you fail to cause any unsaved wounds on it, it wins Combat Resolution and you are suddenly very autobroken very fast.

And charging a fully ranked up unit at a BT might not always be a good idea, since he will only loose combat with 1 or perhaps 2, meaning that, unless he goes poof, he allready have slaughtered one rank and perhaps removed another, so, in the next round, he takes out another two ranks and suddenly, there are perhaps not even troops left to fight him, AND he looses his Frenzy, meaning he is a lot more dangerous

Eldacar
11-09-2005, 11:57
Eldacar, you must remember though, that a single hit from the Bloodthirster might spell your doom, not to mention that if you fail to cause any unsaved wounds on it, it wins Combat Resolution and you are suddenly very autobroken very fast.
What, so the only way to kill it is to take a dragon, because all these other ways have "risks"? Every method of taking down a Bloodthirster has risks. Taking a dragon puts just as much risk as anything else, because while you can stand to lose a 200 point unit (especially in larger games), you can't afford to lose a ~550 point Dragon-mounted character.


And charging a fully ranked up unit at a BT might not always be a good idea, since he will only loose combat with 1 or perhaps 2, meaning that, unless he goes poof, he allready have slaughtered one rank and perhaps removed another, so, in the next round, he takes out another two ranks and suddenly, there are perhaps not even troops left to fight him, AND he looses his Frenzy, meaning he is a lot more dangerous
Why charge a fully-ranked up unit at him? Character combat with a dragon is just as dangerous, remember. There's no sure method of winning. If the dice gods go against you, then you're screwed.

gorenut
12-09-2005, 08:36
Undead, Hand of Dust

Zilverug
12-09-2005, 09:26
How do you players deal with bloodthirsters

Last time I saw a bloodthirster disappear after it had to (frenzy) charge a 40 strong goblin unit, about 8 ranks deep. I think the goblin unit cost about errr... 80 points (and weeks of painting)

Avian
12-09-2005, 14:18
Having pruned all the spam I hope this thread now goes back on topic.
Guido le Wombat, Hywel, redemptionist15, Eldacar & others: this is your friendly warning. Lay off the spam and flaming.

-The moderators

jimbob78
12-09-2005, 15:48
Thanks Avian. Appreciate it.

User Name
16-09-2005, 01:04
generally I have found my giant to be a good way to slow up big nasties, heck just yesterday he made 6 chosen knights run off the board from terror then headbutter an exalted demon to death.

DeathMasterSnikch
18-09-2005, 16:36
Fear the swarm!

Just get one heluva swarm ( 5 rat swarms are best skaven can mannage) and keep em back until the BT or other nasty is geting towards your troops (gives swarms time, chargeing as soon as possible will result in them being in combat for longer when its unnecucary) then when its close enough to attack the core of yor army in its next turn ram the swarms into it. even if they dont do much thats 25 wounds the enemy has to hit before it can get to the rest of your army.

evenar
18-09-2005, 19:20
try to take as many wounds off it from shooting as possible
and in combat most armies have 3 ranks standard outnumber
thats 5 already then you hope it doesnt kill 6 guys and let it die to combat res

DeathMasterSnikch
18-09-2005, 19:53
Oo another idea on the remark of stoping kills etc. Some armies have magic items taht take away attacks or wepons such as blade of realities ( 1 wound = 2 on demons)

Could be useful.

Frodo34x
18-09-2005, 21:10
Saurus Lord on Carnosaur with the Sword of Daemon Killing (ignores wards, double wounds).

DisturbeD_
22-09-2005, 16:38
yes, i find that skaven jezzales fireing at it, as it's a large target and it's 4+ to wound, and then used swarms to hold it up as they are small so you are always hitting the BT :D and if he gets through that then he will surely die to 3 ranks starnder and out number aginst the rest of skaven troops or maybe evan killed as he would only have 2-3 wounds at most left

Imperial_justice
24-09-2005, 12:29
Bretonnians with the vitrue of heroism nothing like a paladin killing blowing a large creature

monstallion
24-09-2005, 12:43
Dwarf Deamon Slayer from the slayer list with a runic weapon with the always go first rune, two runes of cleaving, vampire slayer and death blow (just in case :skull: )

Does exactly what it says on the tin :p

jimbob78
09-10-2005, 10:00
*Bump* Any more ideas welcome

Thanx

Ruffy
09-10-2005, 14:27
there are three things, a bloodthirster has to fear:

- heavy shooting... cannons, bolt throwers, stone throwers...

- big units that do not loose their ranks even after several rounds of combat (goblins for example)...

- multiple-wounds-weapons, for example the hellfiresword or a slayer with the vampire-slayer-skill...

the same applies to dragons and other monsters...


edit: of course, the black jewel of gnar and van horstman's speculum are also to be feared, but I guess everyone already knows that... :D

DarkstarSabre
09-10-2005, 16:58
Um...let's see....

For my Lizards?

It took a 2nd Generation Slann, a unit of 30 Temple Guard and a flank charge or two from some Kroxigors.

But that was before the Carnosaur.

Now it just takes the Carnosaur.

One charge and he gets 4 S6 attacks that cause D3 wounds a piece.

And that's before the Saurus oldblood strikes.

Ruffy
09-10-2005, 19:11
I don't think that this works... the carnosaur only hits on a 5+, wounds on a 4+ and after that the bloodthirster still has his ward save... already included the d3 wounds, the carnosaur causes about one wound...

the oldblood doesn't do much more damage either, probably one or two wounds, depending on his weapon...

then the bloodthirster strikes back and if he is unlucky, he kills the dino in the second round of combat and not already in the first...

NO WAY the oldblood can win against the bloodthirster IMO, not even with re-rolls...

Wintersdark
12-10-2005, 01:58
Bloodthirsters are VERY difficult to deal with in the hands of an experienced player. I think Wood Elves will be unusually adept at it, having small low-cost units that are easy to hide (and thus reduce targets). He can't make a flying charge into a forest, so that limits his charge range if your in woods too.

You want to reduce the number of potential targets for him as much as possible, so you can control where he goes. If you remove ALL targets, then your opponent regains control and you DO NOT want that. Give him one target at the farthest end of his charge range where you can readily flee to safety.... then, as you know exactly where he'll be, have a Treeman Ancient with Annoyance of Netlings, Murder of Spites, and whatever else waiting to charge him, challenge, and beat his bitch ass down. If you can, casting the lovely regeneration spell on said treeman ancient would be rather handy, just in case the BT likes to roll the 6's he's required in order to hit you. No TMA? Well, if you have a character that can actaully handle him in close combat, that's the way to go. Failing that, look to get something going that won't win combat, but will hold him there for a couple turns.

If you can limit a BT to only killing a couple cheap units, then you don't need to kill him at all.

However, if you're playing a more hordish army, it can be a LOT more difficult. He'll have TONS of targets no matter what you do, so your best bet is to only present him with the fronts of ranked units to charge... or the flank/rear of a sacrificial unit that can flee (to garauntee the BT's finishing position, as opposed to holding and having the BT make a random overrun/pursue) then to charge him with a ranked unit and hope you get lucky with Stability tests.

If your opponent is fielding a BT, he's almsot certainly fielding a BSB as well (to reroll those stability tests)... so, KILL IT FIRST! Don't let him reroll those stability tests, because one of the greatest killers of Bloodthirsters is through losing combat to a ranked unit (often a weak one) by one or two and rolling badly on the instability tests.

jimbob78
15-11-2005, 20:06
Keep 'em coming.....

Long_Fang
22-11-2005, 16:19
Bretonnian Lord with Virtue of Heroism, Gromril Great Helm, Enchanted Shield, Tres of Isoulude, and Grail Vow.

You will hit him on 2+ in the first round of combat, your armour will be very tough to get through, in addition to the blessing of the lady, and you have killing blow against large targets.

A charge from a unit of grail knights would also do a lot of damage with 2A each and S6, WS5.

Virtue of Audacity and Sword of Heroes would also be a nice combination on a bret lord.

DisturbeD_
28-11-2005, 13:40
this is all good but you have to rember he does have the longest charge range, plus he is a large target so he can see more, if it is an exprecienced player then you only get 1 turn of shooting at it from hiding and so on, heck if you do it right you can't shoot him at all, the best way is combat, with tons of men, unless you have a 20 ' charge range charter that can take him out in one turn and pull off the charge it's hard. after that he is almost deffantly striking first with a scary amount of attacks

Neknoh
28-11-2005, 13:58
Though the most irritating thing to face with Bloodthirsters as your big hitters are deffinately Slayers, they die a Glorius Death, are unbreakable, and, if any one of those buggers in btb survives, it has enough strength to whack a wound on you.

And the characters... brrr....

But, as has been said and argued (by me as well) BT's can be the easyest and the hardest thing to bring down depending on the opposing player.

Though my best bet would probably be to try and flee into a wood and leave him there to waste a few rounds before you sacrifice a small, worthless unit to him as soon as he gets out, that should take him out of combat