PDA

View Full Version : Ogre Kingdoms bashing - why?



Muncher666
15-10-2007, 14:47
Hi guys,

I've noticed a lot of OK bashing going on in this forum - and I'm at a loss to understand why. Sure, they brought them out over working on DoW or CDs, but they're here and aren't likely to go. They're a great fun army to mess around with - but they're also very difficult to use effectively. Modelling wise, background wise, they're fantastic. What's the prob?

Allan.

elmolovesthekroot
15-10-2007, 14:49
I like the Ogres. They have characher like my old Tomb Kings, but I was 1-23 with the Tomb Kings in battle and I like to win, so I don't play them anymore. Ogres are hard to win with too so that makes them a targer for bashing.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
15-10-2007, 14:52
Because it's new, and the fluff lords book collection didn't mention them.

Some gamers fear change!

EvC
15-10-2007, 15:04
OK bashing? I've not seen many posts from Raebe lately...

Mad Doc Grotsnik
15-10-2007, 15:22
I think Stella had a pop at them a couple of days ago.

I tend to gloss over such things. The army works, the background, if new, is certainly solid, and they offer a force previously unavailable, which is nice.

Muncher666
15-10-2007, 15:28
In the 'new armies for warhammer' thread I noticed at least three seperate quips at the poor l'il (I kill myself!) ogres. Reabe I know has been one to grump about them over his DoW, but he wasn't involved in this particular session of bash the Ogres. Someone even referred to them as 'Shrek Kingdoms'.

I don't play them, but I like the little ogres. The maw especially gets my motor running.

Allan.

zak
15-10-2007, 15:28
I can't see why they moan. The majority of WE players were upset that their book got put back a few months, but other than that it seems to be, like the Doc said...people fear change.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
15-10-2007, 15:30
The Woody players I can well understand to be honest!

But they seemed pretty damned pleased when they did get their book!

Mr. Smuckles
15-10-2007, 15:37
I don't bash the OK, but they are certainly hard to win with.

mistformsquirrel
15-10-2007, 15:39
Eh, its the same reason people gripe about Necrons in 40k - fluff 'changed' (which it does endlessly anyway); and when that happens, people who forget that its the background to a wargame, rather than a holy writ, tend to get their panties in a twist over it.

I dunno, its odd - I love fluff, both for fantasy and 40k; but there are some people I find just take it WAY too seriously; which is where I think 90% of the bashing comes from; both for Ogre Kingdoms, and knocking player-built concepts as well.

Maybe I'm just slightly bitter too though (I'm in a rather foul mood right now; so perhaps its just me seeing things through **** tinted glasses)

Alathir
15-10-2007, 15:59
Uh oh... dont tell Kroq Gar or Reabe about this thread....

Pokpoko
15-10-2007, 16:10
the'll find it like sharks find blood in ocean:P

as for me, i don;'t mind ugly models that don't fit the earlier imaginery, the mediocre fluff,but if they at least tried to make them more than punchdolls for other armies. even gnoblar horde is better then them for Pit's sake!

Tok
15-10-2007, 16:10
Think gw modeled those big bastards from this guy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zqaxPkBgRg

Mad Doc Grotsnik
15-10-2007, 16:35
I've been slapped around plenty by Ogres! It's their Movement that does it. You get extremely limited time to shoot at them, and they can generally pick their fights, as if you've stuffed your deployment, they can exploit that before you've been able to redress.

zak
15-10-2007, 16:54
I've lost count of the times that damn bang stick has killed my elite knights/infantry. You think strength 2, what can that do? You let it go and then relaise the no save part and remove your lovely expensive models.
The Ogre army has added to WHFB, not lessened it. It has crfeated an army that can move at a frightening pace and packs a punch when it charges. I am still waiting for a good reason why GW should never have created the army.
Bad models - Well look at the first version of most models. When they are redone the models will improve. I don't think they are that bad at present. Fluff - All good and well, but as previously stated fluff isn't the be all and end all. It's a game of Fantasy battles not Fantasy role play.

mistformsquirrel
15-10-2007, 16:56
Am I weird for liking Ogre models? >.<;

Mr. Smuckles
15-10-2007, 16:56
Am I weird for liking Ogre models? >.<;

My GF loves her Ogre models

Mad Doc Grotsnik
15-10-2007, 16:58
I don't see why people hate them so much.

Except the Butchers, which are indeed crap!

Though I'm tempted to make Mutha and Fatha Bacon from Viz as Maneaters for my Empire army. Biffa will be a Gnoblar on the base.

mistformsquirrel
15-10-2007, 17:08
Well ok, the Butchers I gotta agree I'm not fond of either >.>; But how can you not like the regular Ogre Bulls? <@.@> Or the ManEaters?! (Giant Ninja. Do I need to say anything more? >.>)

W0lf
15-10-2007, 17:30
wuh?

I hate all of the ogre models exept the butchers :O

I think their really cool... :P

Mad Doc Grotsnik
15-10-2007, 17:33
It's the head! Talk about *****.

Have seen conversions using the Bellower heads which are pretty sweet though.

Reabe
15-10-2007, 17:34
Sure, they brought them out over working on DoW or CDs, but they're here and aren't likely to go.

You've successfully outlined one reason for the hatred of the Shrek Kingdoms. GW is painfully slow with updating armies, and won't ever reach the point all armies are equally updated due to new editions and the fact that new editions means that everyone, from Vets to newbies, will have to spend more money. Due to this, Ogre Kingdoms increases the time when good background will get updated and better armies will get a new army book.


Modelling wise, background wise, they're fantastic. What's the prob?

The models are bland, and static. Not a single model with the "Bull Charge" rule looks like it's charging, and the background is worse. "Hur, we're hungry." is not a background, and most of the facts contradict each other. Before the atrocity that is Ogre Kingdoms was released, the Ogres were an old, nomadic race. They were in the Troll Country, the Chaos Wastes, the Badlands, some even lived in the Empire and were hired by the Imperial Army. Now they're all from the Ogre Kingdoms, which has popped out of nowhere. No warning, no hint in previous works. This is all the worse because the area where Ogre Kingdoms has suddenly appeared was already covered by the Dogs of War 5th Edition army book, so one can only assume that hundreds of Caravans heading for Cathay missed a bunch of 7-foot tall monsters and their tribes and various settlements.

And anyone spending any attention to the current events of the Warhammer World know that not even Crom's Horde has managed to get by the Slayer Army of Karak Kadrin(?). Since that's just the route any forces from the Ogre Kingdoms would need to take to get to anywhere anything interesting was happening in the Warhammer World, why was Ogre Kingdoms even released? It would make just as much sense as making a Cathay army, or a Nippon army. Their forces are rarely anywhere near enough to fight against most of the races of the Warhammer World, and so is the same for Ogre Kingdoms, unless they've magically teleported pass Crom's Horde and the Slayer army. But Archeon's Chaos Army teleported to Middleheim thanks to the story-telling "talents" of Gav Thorpe, so I guess he feels he got away with it once, he can do it again.


OK bashing? I've not seen many posts from Raebe lately...

I'm back, baby, and better than ever! :D


Am I weird for liking Ogre models? >.<;

You're insane for liking the Ogre models.

Pokpoko
15-10-2007, 17:35
easy-they aren't ogres. they are some wierd race of space mongol gorrilas,but they look nothing like ogres.
It's a game of Fantasy battles not Fantasy role play. funny that you mention it, it actually IS the same setting as fantasy roleplay. and fluff changes can be rather irritating, especially when they change the whole previousl fluff. there was Hobgoblin Khanate, badlands and then cathay on the map, and suddenly a whole new race springs up from nowhere. it's like Necrons in 40k-suddenly you can't spit without hitting some "C'tan did it" conspiracy.it also raped the established eldar fluff in the b...bad place. ogres aren't so drastic, but not totally cheery eaiter.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
15-10-2007, 18:09
You've successfully outlined one reason for the hatred of the Shrek Kingdoms. GW is painfully slow with updating armies, and won't ever reach the point all armies are equally updated due to new editions and the fact that new editions means that everyone, from Vets to newbies, will have to spend more money. Due to this, Ogre Kingdoms increases the time when good background will get updated and better armies will get a new army book.



The models are bland, and static. Not a single model with the "Bull Charge" rule looks like it's charging, and the background is worse. "Hur, we're hungry." is not a background, and most of the facts contradict each other. Before the atrocity that is Ogre Kingdoms was released, the Ogres were an old, nomadic race. They were in the Troll Country, the Chaos Wastes, the Badlands, some even lived in the Empire and were hired by the Imperial Army. Now they're all from the Ogre Kingdoms, which has popped out of nowhere. No warning, no hint in previous works. This is all the worse because the area where Ogre Kingdoms has suddenly appeared was already covered by the Dogs of War 5th Edition army book, so one can only assume that hundreds of Caravans heading for Cathay missed a bunch of 7-foot tall monsters and their tribes and various settlements.

And anyone spending any attention to the current events of the Warhammer World know that not even Crom's Horde has managed to get by the Slayer Army of Karak Kadrin(?). Since that's just the route any forces from the Ogre Kingdoms would need to take to get to anywhere anything interesting was happening in the Warhammer World, why was Ogre Kingdoms even released? It would make just as much sense as making a Cathay army, or a Nippon army. Their forces are rarely anywhere near enough to fight against most of the races of the Warhammer World, and so is the same for Ogre Kingdoms, unless they've magically teleported pass Crom's Horde and the Slayer army. But Archeon's Chaos Army teleported to Middleheim thanks to the story-telling "talents" of Gav Thorpe, so I guess he feels he got away with it once, he can do it again.



I'm back, baby, and better than ever! :D



You're insane for liking the Ogre models.

Difference being, Ogres are creatures that currently live in Mountains, and although there are a very large number on the move, they are not moving as a single whole. Thus, the Slayers are most likely ignoring them. Not as if they have besieged any Dwarfs. Plus, being a DoW man, you should know about Golgfag and Slayer Keep!

Face it, they aren't anywhere near as bad as you make out, and your willfully misreading the background to back up your own dislike for them!

Kahadras
15-10-2007, 18:38
I'm glad this post didn't contain any sane argument worth refuting. This was much faster.

Well this post didn't seem to contain any arguement at all.

By the by people weren't happy with OK basicaly because GW had to jig their fluff around to fit the race in and there were armies already out there (like Chaos Dwarfs and Dogs of War) which were still popular with the general community but badly needed updating.

Instead GW decided to go off and make a totaly new army in what appeared to be a move to promote the Warhammer MMORGP (in which there was the option to play as an Ogre). It felt to me like GW just went 'we need background on this race stat!'

Personaly I'm ambivalent to the race and the armies book but I really don't like the models. The poses are poor and I've never felt the need to buy and paint any of the models from the range.

Kahadras

Reabe
15-10-2007, 19:42
Difference being, Ogres are creatures that currently live in Mountains, and although there are a very large number on the move, they are not moving as a single whole. Thus, the Slayers are most likely ignoring them. Not as if they have besieged any Dwarfs. Plus, being a DoW man, you should know about Golgfag and Slayer Keep!

Face it, they aren't anywhere near as bad as you make out, and your willfully misreading the background to back up your own dislike for them!

What?! WHAT?! Slayers ignoring armies of Ogres trawling through their lands? If Ogre Kingdoms are as half as powerful as their advertising in White Dwarf says to lure kiddies into buying them, you're talking total rubbish. The whole point of Slayers is that they see something big and nasty they try and kill it. They don't "ignore".

And I know about Golgfag and Slayer Keep: He was captured by them, and thrown into a cell along with his regiment. He ate all of his regiment (except the bearer of his Standard, but he did eat the Ogre's leg) and escaped.

And really, I wish Ogre Kingdoms weren't as bad as I say they are, but they simply really are that bad. I've read the background and seen the models and this is the only conclusion one can find: The background is messed up and the models are messed up. The worse stuff to be released by GW since their beginning.

Maelx
15-10-2007, 19:50
@Reabe:
Perhaps the fluff doesn't work for you.. but the fluff is always secondary to the game. If they have to break a few eggs in the background of the WH world to enhance the game I'd gladly accept it.

Personally, I think you don't like them because you lose to them too often ;).

Tadite
15-10-2007, 19:59
@Reabe:
Perhaps the fluff doesn't work for you.. but the fluff is always secondary to the game. If they have to break a few eggs in the background of the WH world to enhance the game I'd gladly accept it.

Personally, I think you don't like them because you lose to them too often ;).


I don't think you will find to many people who lose to the Ogres to often.....

Maelx
15-10-2007, 20:13
Have you ever played undead against them? Generally, it doesn't go very well.

Kahadras
15-10-2007, 21:27
Have you ever played undead against them? Generally, it doesn't go very well.

That's a good point. I knew I disliked OK for another reason than just the models. Undead got rather screwed over by the introduction of OK which seems kinda unfair to me.

Kahadras

EvC
15-10-2007, 21:34
Try adding Skrag to the list, and it really hurts Vampire Counts players!

Peril
15-10-2007, 22:31
I won't speak too much to the background. I feel like it suits some people and not others. I happen to like it alright.

I have played Ogres at several big tournaments, and seen some other folks play them as well. I have had mixed success going about 2-2-1 or 2-1-2. A very good player I know came in 2nd overall with an Ogre army (with 3 Butchers).

What consistantly did me in was panic from magic and shooting. I played against Tzeentch, Empire Gunline, High Elves with 4 Bolt Throwers + Archmage, Tomb Kings with two Catapults, etc. Maybe is was just luck of the draw but it happened to me in every setting: If my opponent was competent and had any amount of shooting/magic, I either lost a crucial couple of turns to panic or lost units entirely. If I did manage to get to combat I was so depleted I couldn't win. I tried different units/lists - Kineater, Gnoblar screens, Skragg - but all were fatally flawed in the same way. My games against those types of armies came down to running as fast as I could toward the enemy and praying not to fail a panic check (which sometimes worked). I don't like playing that way though, so I moved on to other armies.

antin3
15-10-2007, 22:37
It's a fantasy wargame, I can't believe people are complaining about variety. Gimme a break, if you don't like them don't play them, maybe we should all just pick the same army and battle it out that would be fun. Who cares about the background? It's ever changing and ever evolving that's a wonderful thing. Who knows what armies we will see in the future? Doesn't that keep people interested. I personally don't play OK, but I don't hate the models or GW for creating backgorund for them. When WFB first started did we have every race we do now? I have not played long enough to know the answer to this but I bet we didn't.

T10
15-10-2007, 23:27
Hi guys,

I've noticed a lot of OK bashing going on in this forum - and I'm at a loss to understand why. Sure, they brought them out over working on DoW or CDs, but they're here and aren't likely to go. They're a great fun army to mess around with - but they're also very difficult to use effectively. Modelling wise, background wise, they're fantastic. What's the prob?

Allan.

The fact that they are here is probably the reason why they are targeted for this "bashing" in the first place.

From a background perspective many feel they just popped out of no-where, as if they were just invented on the spur of the moment. This animosity is perhaps undeserved: While Ogres were an established Warhammer world element, there hasn't really been said much about where they come from. The Ogre Kingdoms fill a geographic area that has not previously been detailed. Ogres have simply been a blank canvas waiting to be painted.

But they still feel like they popped out of no-where.

To a certain extent every army in Warhammer has a connection to each other - admittedly less so in the case of Lizardmen and Wood Elves, but the armies mostly represent established empires and their neighbours, or rampaging hordes at large! The Ogre Kingdoms kind of falls outside these categories - they don't have many neighbours, they don't sail much, and what rampaging they do has traditionally been represented by Dogs of War.

That being said, there isn't really anything wrong with the army. It can win big and lose big, just like any other, but it tends to either excell or fail spectacularilly. It's a fun army. It may not have "right" character, but it's got good character none-the-less.

-T10

Makaber
16-10-2007, 00:14
I think the "pop out of nowhere" theory is a bit odd. After all, "the Ogre Kingdoms" isn't really the name of huge political power structures, of nations of ogres with cities, courts, and defense attourneys. Rather, "the Ogre Kingdoms" is just a name for a place in the Warhammer world where there happens to be a population of Ogres. It's like the Troll Country, with Ogres in it.

Wickerman71
16-10-2007, 00:53
As any one who owns a copy of WFRP first edtion knows the fluff for Ogres has always kind of been there. There is only one model in the range that I find is truley crap is Goldtooth & he's a special character with no other use.

I think the stem of most of the bashing is displaced rage over how GW now releases models. In the 80's an the early 90's models where not linked with army books. One month you could pick up some goblins the next month you could look forward new chaos hounds. Now its army book a poop load of models & then nothing till the next go around. starting with WE GW split the model range glut in half but still players of very few armies are still waiting years for new stuff. I think GW needs to adopt model release that only covers the model essentials with Army Book releases & spreads out new suclpts over much longer periods.

theunwantedbeing
16-10-2007, 01:18
It's OK to bash the ogres.....
It's easy to pick on the fat kid.

It just presented a major change in fantasy, plus being usable in virtually all other armies made it look much more like a money making scheme that it was actually intended to.
People dont seem to like it when people try to make money out of their hobby, not when they arent subtle about it anyway.

That and wood elf players were made to wait even longer, as well as CD players feeling rather shafted that GW made a whole new army instead of them.

Runt Nosher
16-10-2007, 01:38
I've played Ogre Kingdoms since the day they came out and I still sometimes have mixed feelings about it. They are a fun and characterful army but they have a tendency to rely too much on their core units (Ironguts, one unit of 3 bulls), Yhetees, Gorgers and Butchers to be competitive. If you take a combined arms approach you are guaranteed serious leadership issues.

I still think they are really fun and with a small amount of skill I've mannaged to make decent looking charging ogres, and some cool butcher conversions based off of the bull plastics. I really like the model range and have just about one of everything at this point, to each his own. I hate most Dwarf and Skaven stuff but I don't flat out complain about them to everybody I just don't invest $$ in them...

feeder
16-10-2007, 03:02
I'm an Orc who recently added an Ogre army because I needed something big(ger) and nasty(er). I love the basic plastic Ogre, as they look great and are very easy to convert. The pose suits the massive unstoppable bulk that is a charging Ogre. They are ponderous behemoths after all, and they aren't very agile, so the dynamic sprinting charge would look silly.

Of course the Ogre Kingdoms came out of nowhere. The book didn't exist, and then GW wrote it. :p

Seriously, though, when did the Maw arrive? 50 - 80 years ago (?), causing the great migration into the mountians west and into conflict with the mysterious and now extinct Sky Titans. Like any society with an overabundance of food, i.e., the enormous Sky Titan carcasses and their herds of mammoths, the Ogre population exploded. Now that the readily available food is not so plentiful, the Ogres are moving outwards and into conflict with Men, Dwarves, etc.

AFAIK, the Ogre fluff does not imply the Ogre Kingdoms have been there "all along". They are a new force in the mountains that seperate the East from the Old World.

PS, did the Lizardmen suffer the same 'fan backlash' when they suddenly appeared? Now those were some ***** sculpts.

Tymell
16-10-2007, 04:26
You've successfully outlined one reason for the hatred of the Shrek Kingdoms. GW is painfully slow with updating armies, and won't ever reach the point all armies are equally updated due to new editions and the fact that new editions means that everyone, from Vets to newbies, will have to spend more money. Due to this, Ogre Kingdoms increases the time when good background will get updated and better armies will get a new army book.

This is a perfectly valid reason to get pissed at GW. Not at Ogre Kingdoms itself. 40K-wise I really really wish GW would get on with it and update the Dark Eldar, they need it so badly. But that doesn't make me hate any of the armies done before then.


The models are bland, and static. Not a single model with the "Bull Charge" rule looks like it's charging

Fair play, you don't like the models. There are plenty I don't like too, both in OK and other armies. Still not really a reason to loathe and despise the whole army, the models are the least okay.


"Hur, we're hungry." is not a background

No, and it's not their background either.

You can do that with any of the races:

Bretonnians: "Ha, we're chivalrous!"
Wood Elves: "Go away, we like trees"
Chaos: "Grrr, we're evil!"
Orcs: "WAAAGH!"

Their background is fine. And it may not be among the most in-depth or detailed, but when you're trying to fit in a new force like that it can only do so much. Try to make it too detailed and people such as your good self will start complaining about contradictions and such. It's never going to be as complex or detailed as, say, the High Elves, it can't without causing trouble.


and most of the facts contradict each other.

Examples? I'm perfectly happy to accept GW might've screwed up there, I've not studied the book in great detail, but I'd need to see some definite examples of "most of the facts" contradicting each other.


Before the atrocity that is Ogre Kingdoms was released, the Ogres were an old, nomadic race. They were in the Troll Country, the Chaos Wastes, the Badlands, some even lived in the Empire and were hired by the Imperial Army.

And they still are.

If GW wishes to add in new background elements, that's their business. They've been around for over 25 years, do you honestly expect them to never add or update anything?


And anyone spending any attention to the current events of the Warhammer World know that not even Crom's Horde has managed to get by the Slayer Army of Karak Kadrin(?).

Crom's horde was vast, and they knew it was coming. Ogres crossing over are sporadic and in much smaller groups. Do you honestly think there's a vast army of slayers constantly patrolling the whole mountain range? No. That was an army gathered for that purpose and in the region they predicted Crom's arrival. Ogres are totally different. As a history student I can confidently tell you there's a big difference between a huge army on the march complete with big things like artillery and little groups or tribes of individuals. Example: Hannibal and his horde marching on Rome vs. the barbarian migration across the Danube.

I can't stand the ogre bashing. I think they're a fine army, I see nothing wrong with them, at worst you could be pissed at GW for delayed other things and dislike the models. But there's nothing I've seen to show me a valid reason for ogres being some vast atrocity.


I think the "pop out of nowhere" theory is a bit odd. After all, "the Ogre Kingdoms" isn't really the name of huge political power structures, of nations of ogres with cities, courts, and defense attourneys. Rather, "the Ogre Kingdoms" is just a name for a place in the Warhammer world where there happens to be a population of Ogres. It's like the Troll Country, with Ogres in it.

Exactly so. It's not like they suddenly made a big empire in the middle of the Border Princes or some such.

Reticent
16-10-2007, 04:56
My first WHFB army was CD when they were new.

My second was DOW when they were a year or so old.

My third and current is OK.

GW sells toy armies, not extended support contracts. While there isn't anything wrong with disliking Ogres, that dislike isn't any more valid or important than any other player's dislike for any other army. I dislike Empire and the whole 'Slaan' aspect of Lizardmen for example.

burad
16-10-2007, 06:33
If my buddy didn't have an Ogre army, I'd build one. The point is they are funny. Folks should stop being so serious about this; it's fantasy, after all. Heck, I'm gonna build a gobbo (no Orcs) army because it will be funny too, in a different way. Kind of like 1808-9 Spanish. If it ever wins it's a reason to go get drunk.....

Elric101
16-10-2007, 07:55
I have just picked up the OK book and am hooked with my first fantasy army.

There are a lot of misconceptions about Ogres, of nearly all are untrue or opinion-based. Granted, not everyone is going to like the miniatures and/or the fluff etc. But many do, and many are impartial.

'One man's trash is another man's treasure'

It can be really disheartening seeing your army being treated like this, especially if you're just starting out and trying to choose. Threads like this pop up occasionally, and that's fine. But at least have the decency to respect other armies if nothing else.

I love ogres, and think they are one of the most balanced, fun armies to play with a nice miniature range and solid, well-written background. They may not be everyone's cup of tea, but they're a nice army which I enjoy immensely.

As to the OP's question, I'm not sure why a lot of people like to have a go at Ogres, but in the end the most important thing is that you enjoy them.

spud75
16-10-2007, 10:16
Ogre Kingdoms pulled me into fantasy after a long time in 40k and I see no problems with them at all. They are fun to play with.

I think someone should pass Reabe an ogre sized towel so he can dry his eyes.

Son_Of_A_Horus
16-10-2007, 10:22
Personally I like Ogres, am contemplating doing them after my Skaven.

leeoaks
16-10-2007, 10:58
its just a thing of each to there own!

Bubble Ghost
16-10-2007, 11:28
Objective Section of Post
Of course there's no mention or hint of any Ogre kingdoms in previous books. This is the nature of newness. Bash them for not being hinted at previously if you must, but understand that really, you are slating GW for having the sheer gall not to invent a time machine and rewrite all their books for you.

Subjective Section of Post
Ogre Kingdoms background is actually great. Not only that, but it's incorporated into the world at large as seamlessly as a completely new army could have been. And Reabe, it's a bit difficult to take seriously your suggestion that Ogre Kingdoms are silly Rule of Cool stuff when you're suggesting that Dogs of War - the absolute last word in silliness in Warhammer - are somehow more deserving. THEY HAVE GUYS WHO FLY WITH BICYCLE POWERED WING JETPACKS.

Hellebore
16-10-2007, 11:57
easy-they aren't ogres. they are some wierd race of space mongol gorrilas,but they look nothing like ogres.


What IS an ogre?

http://nuwen.net/nv30/full/ogre2.png
http://www.ddo.com/files/34/69/49/51/344.jpg
http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardscans/WOWAZE/ogresuit.jpg&imgrefurl=http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php%3Fproduct%3D43524&h=635&w=400&sz=35&hl=en&start=9&um=1&tbnid=vB9udAZj7IE7iM:&tbnh=137&tbnw=86&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dogre%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den% 26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-GB:official%26sa%3DN
http://www.starstore.com/acatalog/Shrek_2_Ogre_L.jpg


It seems everyone has their own image of an ogre, what exactly makes you an expert in the 'true' ogre visage?



funny that you mention it, it actually IS the same setting as fantasy roleplay. and fluff changes can be rather irritating, especially when they change the whole previousl fluff. there was Hobgoblin Khanate, badlands and then cathay on the map, and suddenly a whole new race springs up from nowhere. it's like Necrons in 40k-suddenly you can't spit without hitting some "C'tan did it" conspiracy.it also raped the established eldar fluff in the b...bad place. ogres aren't so drastic, but not totally cheery eaiter.

Funny you should mention this, because if you go and look at WFRP FIRST EDITION, under the ogre entry, you will see that, not only did ogres exist, and have existed since before 1989, they also worshipped a god called the Great Maw and were obssessed with their stomachs and eating.

So tell me again, exactly WHAT about the ogres sprung from nowhere?

Hellebore

Reabe
16-10-2007, 12:27
No, and it's not their background either.

Then, to you, what is their background? They gained magic, despite being made to be resistant to Chaos, by a god called the "Maw", whose birth was a dollar-store rip-off Be'lakor's entrance to Mordhiem. So, suddenly there's a large area of Chaos-tainted desert between the Old World and Cathay, none of which is mentioned before, despite it was meant to have happened "thousands of years ago".

I can only imagine a bunch of Ogres hiding behind some rocks, girlishly giggling to themselves as Ricco and Robbio's baggage train of thousands rumbles by them towards Cathay.


... it may not be among the most in-depth or detailed, but when you're trying to fit in a new force like that it can only do so much. Try to make it too detailed and people such as your good self will start complaining about contradictions and such. It's never going to be as complex or detailed as, say, the High Elves, it can't without causing trouble.

Exactly what I'm saying: The background of the Warhammer World is too water-tight to allow the over-night addition of a race and radical change of an area. Ogre Kingdoms threw the background in disarray, living questions which will never be answered. Also, if you're not going to make a proper job of it (like High Elves) why bother do it at all? That's the excuse they've used for not doing Dogs of War: Well, I hardly see Ogre Kingdoms as a finished piece of work, so why were they released? Either as some easy way to bring in kiddies who would fall for that sort of thing ("Hey, look, they're big, and big means best-BUYTHEMBUYTHEMNOWANDGIANTSTOO!") or they're the fallout from the aborted first attempt of Warhammer Online.

That said, I don't play Warhammer Fantasy much any more, but I'm looking into playing Chaos Space Marines (Some renegade band. in Warhammer 40,000. The background there is more loose, and the galaxy is expansive, so you can easily do whatever you want.

Jared Blyte
16-10-2007, 13:09
Then, to you, what is their background? They gained magic, despite being made to be resistant to Chaos, by a god called the "Maw", whose birth was a dollar-store rip-off Be'lakor's entrance to Mordhiem. So, suddenly there's a large area of Chaos-tainted desert between the Old World and Cathay, none of which is mentioned before, despite it was meant to have happened "thousands of years ago".

I can only imagine a bunch of Ogres hiding behind some rocks, girlishly giggling to themselves as Ricco and Robbio's baggage train of thousands rumbles by them towards Cathay.



Exactly what I'm saying: The background of the Warhammer World is too water-tight to allow the over-night addition of a race and radical change of an area. Ogre Kingdoms threw the background in disarray, living questions which will never be answered. Also, if you're not going to make a proper job of it (like High Elves) why bother do it at all? That's the excuse they've used for not doing Dogs of War: Well, I hardly see Ogre Kingdoms as a finished piece of work, so why were they released? Either as some easy way to bring in kiddies who would fall for that sort of thing ("Hey, look, they're big, and big means best-BUYTHEMBUYTHEMNOWANDGIANTSTOO!") or they're the fallout from the aborted first attempt of Warhammer Online.

That said, I don't play Warhammer Fantasy much any more, but I'm looking into playing Chaos Space Marines (Some renegade band. in Warhammer 40,000. The background there is more loose, and the galaxy is expansive, so you can easily do whatever you want.

i totally agree with hellebore, get over it raebe? what did the ogres ever do to you? i like the models and i like the maneater models, i have to say im not too fond of the ogre butchers but i have 3 of them anyway, i like the maw worshipping background where its consume or die, its primal, simple, and it works, something about that makes them seem like its a force of nature here to exact vengeance on the other races of the world.. and the OK bashers of course ;).

long live the maw

j

Reabe
16-10-2007, 14:04
i totally agree with hellebore, get over it raebe?

Yeah, Raebe!

...

Wait, who is Raebe?


what did the ogres ever do to you?

I said so earlier, if you ever bothered to read it: They've reduced the chance or extended the time of Dogs of War getting redone.

Ethlorien
16-10-2007, 14:05
I like the OK. I thought the book was a good read and I find nothing wrong (except for butchers) with the models. The only reason I'm not building up my OK forces is because of the new HE on the way (one must have priorities), but I'll get back to them at a later time. My only complaint is troop selection; I have no interest fielding gnoblars (including scraplauncher), but without them I don't find there's a large enough selection of Ogre troops. But, oh well, that's just me and I can deal with that.

Ethlorien

Finnblood
16-10-2007, 14:20
Well.

I started with WFRPG1 back in the day.
Later, when I moved to Fantasy, lots of stuff had changed (BRETONNIA! :cries:) and I wasn't very happy about all of that. Then, when info on a new army started pouring in, I thought it would be something weird, possibly stupid (BRETONNIA! :cries: )
but... I was wrong! Ogres were a very nice reincarnation of the old WFRPG ogres and made me feel all fuzzy and warm inside. They aren't cheesy (WOOD ELVES! :cries:), models are interesting and nice... it's a great army, IMO.

superknijn
16-10-2007, 14:23
I said so earlier, if you ever bothered to read it: They've reduced the chance or extended the time of Dogs of War getting redone.

So you dislike them because you're impatient?

Kahadras
16-10-2007, 14:29
So you dislike them because you're impatient?

Well I wasn't too keen on them bringing out a new army before they'd got round to sorting out the ones that they already had. I'd have prefered a new Chaos Dwarf or Dogs of War book over Ogre Kingdoms based purely on the fact that they had armies books out in the past and people still play them.

Kahadras

MacVurrich
16-10-2007, 14:35
Don't mind OK but I "HATE" painting the Gnoblars
And I wish the Yeti where well better they don't look right

Arhalien
16-10-2007, 14:44
I said so earlier, if you ever bothered to read it: They've reduced the chance or extended the time of Dogs of War getting redone.

Really? I'd be very interested to see any evidence that GW were considering redoing DoW but cancelled it because of OK.

Maarten K
16-10-2007, 15:31
I don't like ogre kingdoms, but I wouldn't call it bashing.
dislikes:

- butchers (giant cooks using magic?)
- yethi's and ravagers?(the big frothing beasts born without a stomag???)
- gnoblars (lucky gnoblars? sharp stuff?)
- scrap launcher (goblin warmacine on steroids?)
- the whole eating thing went over the top, yes ogres aren't very particular about what they eat, but neither are goblins, orcs, trolls, giants etc.
- maneaters: ogre ninja? ogre pirate? orcs and goblins lost their 'funny army' image for a reason!

their backgorund as mercs was great and worked, why change it to an entire independent army. if they just remodelled individual models (the basic ogres look fantastic) and issued them sollely as chaos/dogs of war units that would have been great, but to make them into a playable army they had to invent al IMHO silly, not-fun-ugly units above.

Tymell
16-10-2007, 15:42
Then, to you, what is their background? They gained magic, despite being made to be resistant to Chaos, by a god called the "Maw", whose birth was a dollar-store rip-off Be'lakor's entrance to Mordhiem. So, suddenly there's a large area of Chaos-tainted desert between the Old World and Cathay, none of which is mentioned before, despite it was meant to have happened "thousands of years ago".

I can only imagine a bunch of Ogres hiding behind some rocks, girlishly giggling to themselves as Ricco and Robbio's baggage train of thousands rumbles by them towards Cathay.

Their background, to me (and bear in mind I don't have the book to hand and haven't done for nearly a year because of difficulties of moving house and university) is that they are essentially nomadic, though concentrated in one area, the stomach and comsumption are an inherent focus of their culture and lore, just as many cultures focus on some particular aspect of existence of the body. Ogres are unique in their hunger and ability to consume so much, so this makes sense. They have their own mythology about it, but even with this forming such a large part of their world, there's still the "mercenary" aspect, the way their society is not a unified empire like many others, but rather a selection of tribes sometimes at peace with one another, sometimes at war. Their geographical location affects their relations, as you say, due to the traffic that goes through that area. Again, referring to real world history, it makes a lot of sense. You have an area used as a trading route a lot, then people who live in that area often get used as guides and guards.

Now, I'm pretty tired and like I say, don't have the book to hand. I could probably write pages more, as could many. Simplifying their background to "Hur, I'm hungry" is frankly absurd.

And when you get down to it, isn't that how Ogres are often portrayed in other fantasy settings? When you get down to it, I'd say GW have developed the character and feel of the Ogre race a lot more than most.


Exactly what I'm saying: The background of the Warhammer World is too water-tight to allow the over-night addition of a race and radical change of an area. Ogre Kingdoms threw the background in disarray, living questions which will never be answered. Also, if you're not going to make a proper job of it (like High Elves) why bother do it at all? That's the excuse they've used for not doing Dogs of War: Well, I hardly see Ogre Kingdoms as a finished piece of work, so why were they released? Either as some easy way to bring in kiddies who would fall for that sort of thing ("Hey, look, they're big, and big means best-BUYTHEMBUYTHEMNOWANDGIANTSTOO!") or they're the fallout from the aborted first attempt of Warhammer Online.

The background of the Warhammer World is too water-tight to allow the over-night addition of a race and radical change in the area IF those aspects are absolutely central to the world comparatively.

This is my point I made earlier. Take location: you couldn't just pop something into, say, the Border Princes. It's an area too well-covered. But the Eastern areas beyond the Dark Lands have been covered in far less detail, especially in more recent editions, so I'd say it's about time they did something solid with it. They didn't try to crowbar something into the core of the Warhammer World, both geographically and narratively they have just added something to the outskirts. It incorporates nicely, yet doesn't push in so far that it steps on any toes (which, coming from an Ogre, would be a very bad thing indeed :p ).

I'm also going to have to assume that by only directly replying to some of my points, you have accepted all the others are correct and adequete in refuting your claims, as is the nature of debate.

Sorry, I get far too into debates of pretty much any nature ;)

Pokpoko
16-10-2007, 16:16
http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefront/newimage.asp?Size=A&Img=9308
that is an ogre. as well as golfangs and assorted other ogres throug the GW back catalogue. none of which looked remotely like the space gorrilas, and very much like a big stupid human.
as for 1ed..yeah, they were there, but i can't really recall anything about them having kingdoms. or riding freaking wooly rhinos.maybe i should go re-check my sourcebooks,you think? :rolleyes:

Arhalien
16-10-2007, 16:28
But there are many other things that have changed in appearance over time; all of the Daemons have changed in one way or another; would you say you hate the current daemonettes because they look totally different to the previous version? The (relatively) new dragon ogre shaggoth looks somewhat different to the old dragon ogres; still a beautiful model and I don;t hear lots of hate for it.

pcgamer72
16-10-2007, 16:40
Yeah, Raebe!

...

Wait, who is Raebe?



I said so earlier, if you ever bothered to read it: They've reduced the chance or extended the time of Dogs of War getting redone.

Go find another thread to be annoying in. Your work is done here.

Or better yet, realize that this is a game.

Pokpoko
16-10-2007, 17:07
Or better yet, realize that this is a game.
Warhammer Armies: Clowns, here we come!:chrome:

pcgamer72
16-10-2007, 17:12
Warhammer Armies: Clowns, here we come!:chrome:

I'll take it. I'm still hoping for a Gnome army.

Kadrium
16-10-2007, 17:17
Apparently GW is only allowed to use races and fluff that was already written about in previous books. I guess if they didn't have the foresight to include every race they would ever like to create in the origional material, they're not allowed to add a new race.

Every army book that comes out before your race's book delays your book. Boo hoo.

Pokpoko
16-10-2007, 17:20
well, if I was boasting about having detailed and rich fluff, i'd make sure it stayed consistent with each other..but then again GW is into toy buisness,and the rest is just decorations, so maybe i ask too much of them?:D

Kadrium
16-10-2007, 17:38
Feel free to point out some of these gross inconsistancies.

Pokpoko
16-10-2007, 17:49
well, one might say omitting a whole kingdom would be rather big. as well as making the Gigants descendants of some mythical "Sky Titans", of which noone ever heard before(or maybe that part was mentioned in the infamous ZOMG GIGANT! wd issue?)... frankly, i'd find some more minor ones if i havent sold all my GW books already,so i'm writing this from memory.

oh, in case someone thought i take it seriously-i don't, but i enjoy having an argument about stupid details:p

Drongol
16-10-2007, 17:56
Allow me to be the first to say that I don't necessarily like a lot of the Ogre Kingdoms fluff--and I happen to play Ogres (and only Ogres).

For starters, it feels way too Orcs and Goblins++ for my tastes. The Orcs are bigger, and the Goblins are smaller, and everything's more brutal and nasty. Personally, I think the inclusion of Gnoblars was a major mistake. I just don't like that all of the "evil" races tend to have their slaves--Chaos Mortals has, well, Mortals and Beastmen, Beastmen have Ungors, Orcs have Goblins, Dark Eldar have EVERYONE, Skaven have Skaven and everyone else, and so on. It'd be nice to see a bad race (Ogres aren't really evil) that didn't rely on slave labor to accomplish anything meaningful.

Secondly, it seems like every living thing in the Ogre Kingdoms is either a massive monstrocity of death and teeth and fangs or a Gnoblar. There's no real mention of prey animals, and the Mountains of Mourn are described as a bit too barren to support the type of prey that all the carnivores would need to survive. Heck, what exactly does a Rhinox eat, anyways?

As far as them just up and appearing in the grey areas of Hobgoblin-controlled wastes, that's fairly understandable, really. The way I see it, the Ogres tend to live in the areas surrounding the mountains, leaving vast tracks of land for the Hobgoblins to do their thing with. That part really doesn't bother me too much, although a few lines in the army book might have been nice.

Likewise, the models. Sure, they're static and a departure from the goofy, cephalitic-looking monkeys of the past (anyone who says that the new Ogres look like gorillas hasn't looked too closely at the old Ogres--especially the Chaos Ogres), but honestly, I find this change refreshing. I'm not a huge fan of almost any of the metal models, but the plastics work great and are easy to convert--Butchers made cheap. A few of the Maneaters look rather nice, but they don't fit in with the background of my army, honestly. Plus, Maneaters are one of the best points-sinks in the game.

If I wanted dynamic, swordbucklerriffic poses on my models, I'd play High Elves or Skaven with a bunch of Clan Eshin or something. If I wanted truly solid-looking models that look like they're just waiting for the enemy to come to them, I'd play some kind of Dwarf list. However, I like the casual nature of the Ogre plastics--it's almost as though they're not particularly concerned about what the little people can do to them. Plus, they're ugly without being comical, and that's a big plus in my book. There's way too much bad out there that's pretty (Dark Elves), ornate (Chaos), boring (any Undead list) or just plain goofy (Orcs). I want bad without the glamour, and Ogres provide that in spades.

Plus, it's nice to find a mercenary army that's not completely over-the-top and/or semi-historical. I was extremely excited about the possibility of a Dogs or War army book when the Regiments of Renown came out, but was put off when I realized that it basically was Army Book: Tilea. Lots of potential, but GW dropped the proverbial ball on that one.

Oh well, at least there's Ogres for mercenaries now.

Drongol

Kadrium
16-10-2007, 18:09
well, one might say omitting a whole kingdom would be rather big.

They state in the fluff exactly where the ogres came from. They were displaced from their origional homeland after the coming of the Maw, and moved in small groups and tribes into the Mountains of Mourn over a period of time.

It's not as if there's some huge civilization that suddenly sprang up out of nowhere, with hundreds of thousands of ogres living in massive metropoli.. metropoleese... metropolesses? :D

Its a bunch of smaller scattered tribes. The term "kingdoms" is hardly representational of what the ogre civilization actually is. Greasus Goldtooth may fancy himself a king, but he hardly rules over something that could be called a kingdom.

Wickerman71
16-10-2007, 18:25
as for 1ed..yeah, they were there, but i can't really recall anything about them having kingdoms. or riding freaking wooly rhinos.maybe i should go re-check my sourcebooks,you think? :rolleyes:


O God forbid GW actually expanded on core concepts or else we would never have units beyond Human; Orc; Goblin; Elf; Dwarf; Chaos Warior Units. Luckly for the rest of us the GW design team is not so closed minded.

Kadrium
16-10-2007, 20:05
O God forbid GW actually expanded on core concepts or else we would never have units beyond Human; Orc; Goblin; Elf; Dwarf; Chaos Warior Units. Luckly for the rest of us the GW design team is not so closed minded.

EEEExxxxactly. Not every unit and race currently in the game was specifically mentioned and detailed in the fluff of 1st ed books. Let the game evolve a little.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
16-10-2007, 20:31
In 1st Ed, it was essentially a straight rip off of Tolkein. Thankfully, things have moved on considerably.

zak
16-10-2007, 21:15
So far the arguments I have heard are: -

1. The fluff. Well as stated in many posts the fluff was there and has been expanded upon with the introduction of the OK book. The entire WH fluff has not been rewritten. The map is the same as before, but extended and as previously pointed out the OK filled in a space unused by other races, so it has not displaced anyone other than some deceased Sky Titans! I do not see this as a bad point and if you want to play WHFR then don't use the latest book with the OK in it. Fluff is only important to an extent and a useless by-product to some (not me!).
2. The models. Yes, some are ugly, but many other ranges have some ugly miniatures and then the beauty of a model is in the eye of the beholder. I personally like a lot of the range. GW will improve them over time as they have done with other armies.
3. It put some other armies on the back burner. Well yes it did. But that is hardly the OK fault. That was a GW decision. They run a business and they made a business decision that the OK army would make more money. Whether this worked or not is largely irrelevant. At the end of the day GW make models and the fluff is just a secondary consideration. I would like to see CD, more so than DoW, but I'll just have to be patient and try not o take my impatience out on an army list that put it back down the priority list!

Some of you have put your views accross as to why you don't like the Ogres and you are more than entitled to that view. I can accept that some don't like the models or army playstyle, but I haven't heard an argument yet that makes me think OK should never have been created.

FranticDaemon
16-10-2007, 21:57
Warhammer Armies: Clowns, here we come!:chrome:

Not exactly what you meant, but... (http://uk.games-workshop.com/eldar/harlequins/assets/harlequins.pdf)

skavenguy13
16-10-2007, 23:48
Why I dislike them:
-50% of the army or more is the same ******* model. It just has a different beard and weapon(s).
-yeah, gut magic (the concept) is a bit ridiculous I think.
-Yheetees. The models ("I fell on its face right before moulding it"), but also the statline/point cost.
-the SLAVEgiant
-yes there is unconsistencies in the fluff
-they seem very very hard to win with if you don't play uni-dimensional (bulls, ironguts, leadbelchers: choose one)

But I still have an army of them. Why? I think they're fun to play with, fun to play against, fun to model, and the models can be made funny. I'm really looking for entertainment in the GAMES I play. And the gameplay is pretty different from my skaven army. It's like playing turret defense. And while turret defense is fun for me, it does get boring sometimes.

Hellebore
17-10-2007, 03:12
http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefront/newimage.asp?Size=A&Img=9308
that is an ogre. as well as golfangs and assorted other ogres throug the GW back catalogue. none of which looked remotely like the space gorrilas, and very much like a big stupid human.
as for 1ed..yeah, they were there, but i can't really recall anything about them having kingdoms. or riding freaking wooly rhinos.maybe i should go re-check my sourcebooks,you think? :rolleyes:

Lucky for us GW decided that +size humans are a little one dimensional for an entirely unique race.

So you retreat from them not being there at all, to not having certain things about them?

So are you complaining that the Elves 'suddenly' had phoenix guard and white lions after never having them in the 80s?

What about the lizardmen? The slann used to be their own race, but were 'usurped' by the lizardmen, relegating them to bloated toadamancers.


From the evidence of past background:

Ogres have been around for ages
They worship the great maw
They see their gut as a status symbol
Noone knew where they came from


So they had PRECEDENCE, and simply expanded on that. They had to come from somewhere, no one would have accepted an army of ogres if they said in the background "no one knows where the ogres come from, but are sure of one thing: they have armies."


Face it, they didn't make up a race, they expanded on one that had existed for 20 years. They didn't even remake their original background - they still worship the maw and their gut.

And just like EVERY OTHER WFB army they ADDED to that background.

If GW never added to the background of the races we wouldn't have the armies we have today, we'd have armies with lists consisting of ~3 entries.

So using the 'they sprung from nowhere argument' is not only misleading, it's a lie.

Hellebore

Halelel
17-10-2007, 06:43
The only thing I disliked about OK was the lore behind them toppling the "Sky Titans Kingdom" (i.e. civilized Giants with culture!). I'm sure others would've loved for GW to finally explain what the heck giants are, where they came from, and what happened to them?

The whole toppling their empire and eating them just seemed silly to me.

The Old Scholar
17-10-2007, 08:38
Simply, I like the Ogres.
I have enjoyed playing against them.
My friend has a great army and plays them well.
No bashing or hatred here.
The models are similar to the new Chaos Warriors and I don't hear many complaints about those.
As for the weak background for the Ogres, I play High Elves and they are a refurbished Moorcock/Tolkien idea anyway and I still love them--perhaps because of this.
As it is, I thought the Dogs of War were enhanced by the Ogres. If I were to take a Dogs of War unit I'd take either a giant, Lead Belchers or Bulls. There's little else in the Dogs of War list that interests me. This may be because the list hasn't been updated...but I'm willing to bet it's because High Elves have everything the Dogs of War offer but better.
I could be wrong, simply my opinion.
Anyway, Ogres=I like.

Pokpoko
17-10-2007, 13:35
wow. hellbore,i'd hate to be an ass,but i'll have to. i don't care for ogre kingdoms one bit. in fact, i thought up the arguments on the go. but i'm happy i got a few people into getting all worked up:D anyway,where can i get my free warning? they are all the rage these days i'v heard:p

Wickerman71
17-10-2007, 14:07
wow. hellbore,i'd hate to be an ass,but i'll have to. i don't care for ogre kingdoms one bit. in fact, i thought up the arguments on the go.

Your lack of any real input on the matter was proof enough that you were pulling it out of your backside, you didn't have to own up to it. I also think that hellbore or anybody else didn't get as worked up as you seem to think. You don't like Ogres no biggy; I don't like Dwarfs, Chaos Dwarfs or DOW but you don't see me going on about how or why they sould not have been made.

Hellebore
17-10-2007, 14:19
wow. hellbore,i'd hate to be an ass,but i'll have to. i don't care for ogre kingdoms one bit. in fact, i thought up the arguments on the go. but i'm happy i got a few people into getting all worked up:D anyway,where can i get my free warning? they are all the rage these days i'v heard:p

You are entitled to dislike whatever you want, whenever you want to.

But don't expect to use false evidence and receive unquestioning acceptence.

You don't like the ogre kingdoms, that's fine. You don't even need to have a coherent reason as to why you don't like them.

However, trying to justify an opinion without factual evidence, and even using contradictory evidence not only supports a position that is completely invalid, it undermines the actual truth of the situation.

People start saying 'yeah those stupid ogres, popping up out of nowhere' when that is completely untrue.


Like I said, you can dislike anything you want on artisitic/aesthetic grounds, but don't try to justify that position with arguments that aren't actually true. You don't like how they look, that's a valid reason to dislike them. I personally don't mind their appearance, but it is a subjective aesthetic anyway. Not liking them because they were retconed into the background, with spontaneously invented fluff however ISN'T a valid reason to dislike them because they have always been there, and had the same cultural background in the 80s as they do now.

I really don't care about the ogres one way or the other, but I do care that they aren't villified under false pretences.

Hellebore

Tymell
17-10-2007, 14:41
@ everything Hellebore has said:

My thoughts exactly, just what I've been feeling/telling people too. People are entitled to dislike whatever they want. But there's a distinct difference between stating a purely subjective opinion ("I don't like Ogre Kingdoms") and stating it like it's an objective fact ("Ogre Kingdoms suck"). The former isn't really open to logical debate, the latter is and thus requires some kind of evidence or cogent argument to back it up.

Hellebore wins the thread :D

Reabe
17-10-2007, 15:26
The only thing I disliked about OK was the lore behind them toppling the "Sky Titans Kingdom" (i.e. civilized Giants with culture!). I'm sure others would've loved for GW to finally explain what the heck giants are, where they came from, and what happened to them?

The whole toppling their empire and eating them just seemed silly to me.

Also that Giants were made for building monoliths on Albion, and become as they are now via lost of knowledge and inbreeding. Although, now, this background from the Albion campaign has been replaced with: "OGRESAREGREATBUYTHEMTHEYDEFEATEDTHEGIANTSTHEY'RETH ATAWESOMEBUYTHEMBUYTHEM!"

Fantastic job, GW. Just the thing that needed to push me other the edge and stop playing Warhammer.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
17-10-2007, 15:33
Yes, thats right Reabe.

You don't like them, and nor should anyone else. For your opinion is all.

mistformsquirrel
17-10-2007, 15:45
I've noticed that a lot in various fandoms honestly Mad Doc. People always get it into their head that they are the BE ALL END ALL on a given subject, and if they don't like something, you should bow to their opinion. Its frankly irritating.

As I've said so many times my throat has gone hoarse from saying it: You don't have to like it, you don't have to play against it; but damned if you'll actually change it, because someone out there does like it.

Maelx
17-10-2007, 16:40
Fantastic job, GW. Just the thing that needed to push me other the edge and stop playing Warhammer.

Sounds good! If there's one thing this hobby needs it's less whiny people.

Urgat
17-10-2007, 17:00
I like my ogres, I like the models (save for the sabertooth tigers, the gorgers and the yetees, they're all *****), they're fun to play, but yeah, they can be difficult to win with, they're too fragile. As for the fluff, bah, it's not so bad, people are boring to complain about that.

Kadrium
17-10-2007, 17:48
Am I just one of the only people that really honestly doesn't give a rip if the fluff gets some rewriting from time to time anyway? I'm not mortally offended if GW wants to retroactively change some of the fluff, especially when it's not fluff for a major player in the world order. Ogres don't have a massive impact on the world history like Chaos, Skaven, Dwarfs, the empire, etc. They're fat, they live in the mountains that nobody else lives in, and occasionally eat some trade caravans. What's the big deal?

Mad Doc Grotsnik
17-10-2007, 17:49
It seems the problem is that certain people were not asked for their express permission to introduce a new race.

Kadrium
17-10-2007, 17:55
Or they were hurt that chaos dwarfs weren't re-introduced. So why not hate every new army book that comes out too? Every one of them is delaying chaos dwarfs or squats or DoW or whatever your flavor is.

Ethlorien
17-10-2007, 18:41
Am I just one of the only people that really honestly doesn't give a rip if the fluff gets some rewriting from time to time anyway? I'm not mortally offended if GW wants to retroactively change some of the fluff, especially when it's not fluff for a major player in the world order. Ogres don't have a massive impact on the world history like Chaos, Skaven, Dwarfs, the empire, etc. They're fat, they live in the mountains that nobody else lives in, and occasionally eat some trade caravans. What's the big deal?

I agree completely!

Tymell
17-10-2007, 19:56
I agree completely!

And me.

I don't see it as some ultimate sin to jiggle with the background, especially in smaller cases. I'll judge it on the basis of what comes out of it, not just on the fact that they're daring to do it in the first place.

Plus, as has been said, it's not like much was played with at all anyway.

The Senate
17-10-2007, 21:00
I believe the ogre kingdoms is a excellent addition to the warhammer roster. I think also that although they were already there as in the case of chaos dwarfs it opens up that part of the world for further development. Yes CD will be out again one day but they most likely despite being evil have some complex interaction with other races and the ogre kingdoms simply provides a richer scope to play with. When i think of that part of the warhammer world I don't want to think of just ash wastes. its great to have other 'dominant' races trading, fighting etc with each other in that area.

studderigdave
17-10-2007, 21:04
just chill. play the game. if you dont like the army, dont play it. yall need to relax.

pcgamer72
17-10-2007, 21:40
And me.

I don't see it as some ultimate sin to jiggle with the background, especially in smaller cases. I'll judge it on the basis of what comes out of it, not just on the fact that they're daring to do it in the first place.

Plus, as has been said, it's not like much was played with at all anyway.

Here here!

Unfortunately, some people (I don't think I need to name them... just read the thread) are so set in their ways, that they can't accept change. At least they are in the minority? I haven't actually met one of these people (that I am aware of) in person, and I thank some greater power for that now.

@Hellebore- Thank you for simply disproving many of the arguments used against the Ogre Kingdoms book. I haven't played the game since the early editions, so I was unaware of the aforementioned facts. Much thanks!

Shadowsinner
17-10-2007, 22:50
I like the ogres. Ever since they came out I thought they were cool. Basically the army is just silly and I like it. Ogres are just a neutral army that runs on two things, hunger and wonder lust. Giant ninjas, magic butchers, and cannon wielding ogres are just a fun concept. As dogs of war they simply fight for food money. I've played DE, WE, and dwarfs and they're all fun, and I think the the ogres make a fine addition. For the fluff i really dont care where they fit in. All I know is that they were drawn to the mountain, and worship the great maw where they base their religious beliefs upon eating. (Hell I wish we had a religion like that!) and thats good enough for me. I like the models, for their simplicity. Not every model should be a bad ass looking dynamo, otherwise it gets lame. For the new concept of an army, I say the innovation is great. I cant wait for the next NEW army simply to see what GW comes up with. I'm looking into getting and OK army, and I don't think I'll be disappointed. And for the fact that Ogres are uni-dimentional I'd have to disagree. Ive seen a guy slaughter his opponent with an all gnoblar army! It had a billion and one ward saves with rerolls and it worked. Each army has their flaws and most have their goofy units. Thats what makes it so great.

Bretonnian Lord
17-10-2007, 23:03
I never understood why people bash Ogres... I actually kinda like them. :)

Urgat
18-10-2007, 15:07
Here here!

Unfortunately, some people (I don't think I need to name them... just read the thread) are so set in their ways, that they can't accept change

Anyway, so what? It's not like they can do a thing about it, so they can as well shove their frustrations anywhere they want, Ogres have been introduced, and they won't magically disappear because some people cry :p

Mad Doc Grotsnik
18-10-2007, 15:10
Speaking about the gaming community as a whole, if people put half as much effort into promoting their cause, and doing something proactive, as they did whinging about what they don't want/like, everyone would be better off!

Moral? Only whinge if your prepared to go out and change the world!

Muncher666
24-10-2007, 05:07
Wow, I forgot I made this topic.

I've noted a lot of people call Gut Magic silly, but they seemingly dismiss the sillyness of an orc or goblin soaking up the inherent waaaaghiness of the battlefield and vomiting it out in a stream of green energy toward the enemy (this is also cool, but just as silly as Gut). Gut Magic seems sexy in an intensely tribal way.

As for the Chaos Dwarf stuff - I'm waiting, as I have a small amount of faith that they will get some sort of (possibly limited) re-release. DoW though - I can take or leave, as I thought it was a bit hickeldepickeldy from the moment I first saw it (95, I think).

Allan.

Allan.

L192837465
24-10-2007, 15:54
i'm impartial to OK. on one hand they fill a great void in the game (a lot of multiwound living things that beat stuff into the ground) but are intensly fragile. especially with 7th ed (i think it was like, 400 points for two ranks and full command of the cheapest unit). they could use more fluff, in my opinion, but are a great addition.

on the other hand, i dislike the fact that GW abused that book. if someone could (i'm at work) get the dates of release for the ogre kingdom book and the 7th ed rulbook, i'd greatly appreciate it. as they were completely left in the dust with 7th ed release (5 wide for rank bonus mainly)

pcgamer72
24-10-2007, 18:49
on the other hand, i dislike the fact that GW abused that book. if someone could (i'm at work) get the dates of release for the ogre kingdom book and the 7th ed rulbook, i'd greatly appreciate it.

I believe the Ogres were released in the Spring of 2005. 7th Edition was released in September of 2006.

FranticDaemon
24-10-2007, 19:41
I believe the Ogres were released in the Spring of 2005. 7th Edition was released in September of 2006.

Nope. Yeah, Ogres were relesead in the Spring 2005, and... and that pretty much it... Ogres never get any new releases (Maybe exept direct order female and ninja maneaters and Bull Rhinox Riders from FW).

pcgamer72
24-10-2007, 21:29
Nope. Yeah, Ogres were relesead in the Spring 2005, and... and that pretty much it... Ogres never get any new releases (Maybe exept direct order female and ninja maneaters and Bull Rhinox Riders from FW).

Wait... what is the "Nope" for???

FranticDaemon
24-10-2007, 23:02
D'oh! I misread your post, nevermind my last post...

zak
24-10-2007, 23:15
Ogres were never designed to use massed ranks so the change between 6 and 7th edition made little difference. The only reason to use large units is the outnumbering auto break rule rather than static CR. MSU of Ogres work far better than large blocks of Ogres which have vulnerable flanks and are prone to panic.