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UltimateNagash
15-10-2007, 15:15
What do you find as problems in the Nid list? The downright rubbish, the unfair etc. Please tell me, cheers :)

Vanger
15-10-2007, 15:20
Just read the interwebz :)

Mainly it's the fact taht they can take too many Monstorus Creatures and that MCs are too powerfull. A vehicle takes 1 hit it can't shoot anymore. A MC takes a wound it laughs about it.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
15-10-2007, 15:24
But by the same token, MC can't transport infantry, or decimate a squad a turn whilst remaining utterly invulnerable to most weapons fire!

Polonius
15-10-2007, 15:24
Well, I'm sure you can glean a lot from various topics, but generally people are very favorable to the Nid codex. The only real problem is what some folks call the "V 4.5 nugget of broken," which has been in every non-DA codex since Eldar. For eldar, it's ultra-tough falcons, for Chaos is Lash, and for Nids it's being able to buy Dakka-fexes as elites. The Zilla list is a bruiser, but it's heft comes from an unlikely source: the 8 twin-linked S6 (re-rolling wounds) shots from a 4 wound, T6 3+ save scoring unit, all for under 115 points.

While the merits of Nidzilla are sung by some folks, and denigrated by others, the Tyranids can buy a unit with more punch than most light tanks, with more durabilty, as an elites choice. Add in a full complement of true TMC terrors, and you've got a very potent list.

Aside from that, the usually complaints arise: Broodlords lose fleet, Warriors are still pants, Hormagaunts count as beasts so start off the board in escalation, and Biovores are underpowered.

Marinox
15-10-2007, 15:28
genestealers (i say) are probably the best troops choice in the game.

from my experience, Nid power is in the stealer horde up in yer business second turn. the MCs are just icing on the cake.

Polonius
15-10-2007, 15:32
genestealers (i say) are probably the best troops choice in the game.

from my experience, Nid power is in the stealer horde up in yer business second turn. the MCs are just icing on the cake.

I'm not sure that's a problem, but I think you're absolutly correct. Unlike many other gimmick builds (9 tornado lists, 6 dread, or even 3 falcon), the tryanids actually scale up past 1500pts really well. Being able to add units of genestealers to a base of 7-8 TMCs is a potent build, one used, IIRC, by a recent GT winner. Ironically, the stealer shock list is the best build for taking out nidzilla lists, but suffers dramatically when facing skimmers.

Stingray_tm
15-10-2007, 15:34
The Tyranid Codex is great. My only complaints are these:

- Lictor is too underpowered or too overcosted. Make him 10 points cheaper or give him one additonal attack and he is fine. Fluffwise he also should be independend from Synapse.
- Biovores are underpowered. They should do more damage and in return cost more. Right now they are okay, but they are no real competition for the other Heavy Support entries.
- Swarms don't benefit from the Instant Death protection, which makes them fluffy, but useless against armies with hidden power fists.
- There should be a limit to one Elite Carnifex maximum

Other than that, the Codex is great.

UltimateNagash
15-10-2007, 15:53
Well, that's good. It seems I'm addressing all the points, eh?

Bregalad
15-10-2007, 18:35
1.) Almost no anti-tank weapons, no chance against 3+ skimmer-tank armies -> Carnifex has to be ranged, not cc oriented, contradicting fluff.
2.) Almost no synapse that is as fast as horde (only expensive Flyrants and winged warriors).
3.) Warriors, Lictors and Biovores too expensive for what they can. A shame for the nice Lictor and Biovore models.
4.) Broodlord, the "master genestealer", is too slow, needs fleet like all genestealers.
5.) CC carnifex never reaches combat, being too slow. Give him at least a 12" bull run.
6.) A second infiltrator unit that is not HQ would be fine.
7.) Rippers are quite pointless now. Change that, perhaps with better speed (or Scarab rules).

Generally the Codex should allow playing competitive armies that do not contradict fluff, i.e. cc oriented horde armies. Just now, most tournament players play non-horde shootist armies.

P.S.: I don't get the point of your pdf. How should it address any problem?

RampagingRavener
15-10-2007, 20:29
- There should be a limit to one Elite Carnifex maximum

Said it before and I'll say it again. The "Shock Troops" rule is fine, if one uses it to feild cheap CC Carnifexes. It's hardly overpowered then. It's when people spam the board with Twin-Linked Devourers that things get too much. Simple fix? Swap the points costs for Twin-Linked Devourers and Twin-Linked Deathspitters. So if people want cheap shooting Carnifexes, they can; but they get two small st7 ap5 blasts instead of the frankly rediculous torrent of fire Devilfexes can crap out.

Okay, other than that, my other problems with the 'Nid list.

1. Lictor. I love the model, I love the fluff, but he's too pricey. Drop it to 70 points, add either an extra attack or Implant Attack and job's a good'un.
2. Biovores. Bigger templates please. I'd pay an extra 10 points per model for this. Their current points cost is too much for small templates, but too much for large ones.
3. Rippers. Personally I love Rippers to bits, and feild them in most games. But I think just adding Fleet would make them a lot more popular.
4. Carnifexes taken in the Elites slots get Fleet of Foot for free. It would make cheap assault carnifexes popular, which would be a nice change. Broodlords need either Fleet, or Infiltrate Regardless of Scenario.
5. Genestealers...I seriously think they should go back down to a 6+ save basic. Swarms of Genestealers with Extended Carapace is, frankly, sick.
6. Warriors and Hormagaunts, I think, need a bit of a points break.

tl;dr: Nerf Devilfexes hard and Genestealers somewhat, make Warriors and Hormagaunts cheaper, Lictors and Biovores better, and Carnifexes and Broodlords faster. Been playing Nids from the start of their 3rd edition codex, for referance.

Oh, and give Tyrant Gaurd Spinebanks. I miss those two st5 shots. ;)

azimaith
15-10-2007, 20:50
Lictors are not good enough in their current state. They lack the killing power to be a hammer, they lack the staying power to be a distraction, and they don't perform their job as ambush predators very well. (As an ambush you should be at an *advantage*)
Causing them to ignore enemy cover for purposes of assaults and allowing them to hit and run after their initiative step makes them a lethal harrassment unit that can jump in, kill some models, and then vanish completely as they do in fluff. Also they are reliant on synapse which is imbecilic.

Carnifex are only really good in the shooting role. Assault carnifex are too slow and generally can't counter assault because most people won't assault tyranids (or if they do its with a unit that will erase a carnifex).

Warriors are too expensive for their abilities. A basic toughness of 5 would make them a good deal more survivable against small arms fire. Furthermore their guns are too expensive and priced in silly ways. Why is a pulse rifle equivalent with a crappy blast more expensive than an assault 4 (on warriors) re-roll to wound gun? In general their prices are too expensive to justify taking them for reasons besides synapse.

Hormagaunts are beasts for some stupid reason. If they had fleet they would operate identically without being forced into reserves despite the fact they are one of the most basic of all tyranid troop types.

Rippers are slow and expensive. Far too slow and far too expensive. Wings cost too much doubling their cost while doing very little else. Same with warrior wings.

Twin-linking for tyranid guns is too expensive and from a silly archaic system. They should be a 50% increase, not a 2x increase. This has caused builds that avoid variations on weapons.

Ravener scything talons are not priced competitively enough to warrant their use alone. There isn't any reason to take them.

The ease of target priority tests has badly hurt the ability to play a tyranid swarm that has fast moving elements unless you use a flying tyrant. Once again this makes certain builds and lists "mandatory" to get it to operate.

The broodlord doesn't have a well enough defined role in the tyranid army. Is he an infiltrating assault squad? (Too slow). Is he forward synapse (What else does he do during the battle to justify his cost them).

Biovores do very little damage and cost ridiculous amounts. Making biovores heavy 2 would solve this probably.

To be honest i'd prefer to see every single tyranid get the Fleet USR and any additional movement types you give them negate their fleet. (Thus a hive tyrant starts with fleet or can have wings instead). This makes warriors cheaper thus more available. This makes synapse easier to keep with the front lines, and it makes assault fex's a viable choice.

Democratus
15-10-2007, 21:10
Vanger has the jist of it. The excess of Monsterous Creatures which can be taken in a single army combined with the rules for MCs makes Nidzilla a "no brainer".

Any codex which has only one great choice per FOC isn't well built. It results in identical armies - and in the case of Nids it results in identical "broken" armies.

Aside from addressing the MC problem. Steps need to be taken to make the other units worthwhile (Warriors, Gaunts, Lictors, Gargoyles, etc.) as viable choices.

jfrazell
15-10-2007, 21:16
1) Dakkafexes, which appear designed purely to sell carnie minis. Asnoted, very efficient for the points.
2) Weaknesses
Aside from that, the usually complaints arise: Broodlords lose fleet, Warriors are still pants, Hormagaunts count as beasts so start off the board in escalation, and Biovores are underpowered.I'd also posit that Hormagaunts are overpriced for their worth. A few more points gets you a base stealer, or much cheaper gets you a nice spine gaunt.

boogle
15-10-2007, 21:19
my only quibble with the list is the Spore Mine Cluster, which hasn't yet been mentioned, just seems a bit pointless to me to be honest

Tulun
15-10-2007, 21:22
I agree with some of the sentiments here.. what I would do (if it were up to me).

a) All big Tyranids should get fleet of foot, but possibly d3, because it might be *too* good with a full d6. But, it would save up to a turn for CC fex, make escalation slightly less brutal, and overall, make CC builds more possible. ALL Tyranids should have some sort of movement bonus, without exception (even if it's just a tiny one... like d3 fleet...).
I enjoy the idea that they have fleet, but lose it on certain upgrades, as well.

b) Rippers need fleet of foot. That's about it. Winged is stupidly overpriced, might as well remove this if it doesn't drop by 50% (at least!). The only problem might be that they are too competitive vs Gaunts here (how to address this?), though being instant killed is still an issue.

c) TL Devourers, at the very least, should cost more on Carnifex. Remove the Dakkafex as an elites choice, and Nidzilla will become *far* less problematic. Good, yes, but without the Dakkafex, it won't be a no brainer.

d) Warriors should become cheaper. not necessarily better in any way, but they are too costly at current levels.They should also gain Fleet of Foot, so they can keep up with gaunts reasonably, and get into range faster. Warrior broods should all likely start in escalation, regardless of movement type (because Tyranids should rely more on synapse, and make it at least a reasonable option to do so...). Winged Warriors should be allowed to upgrade Extended carapace.

e) TL weapon option should be like Tau: half cost if you Twin link the weapon. Carnifex and Tyrants should be able to take 2 of the same big gun, if they wish. Considering how expensive the Venom Cannon is (for example), this shouldn't be a problem.

f) Warp Field should either give a 5+ invul or none at all and cheapen up. 6+ is a slap in the face lol.

g) Broodlord should lose infiltrate and gain fleet. This was almost a throwback to 3rd edition Stealers, and it should be thrown out all together. People even use the Broodlord as ablative wounds (pick him first) so their Genestealers regain fleet... what a waste of an HQ slot >.>

h) Lictor needs to cheapen up slightly or improve further. Make it so if scattered into a unit, counts as charging said unit. Occupying the cover should not be a defence against Lictors. Basic save at 4+ would be nice. It has to compete against Warriors and Carnifex.... It should also have fleet of foot (or d3), because all Tyranids should move faster than normal.

i) Zoanthrope should get fleet of foot.

j) Biovores are terrible. In 3rd they were too awesome, being split apart (etc). But they took it too far the other way.. they got *more* expensive, and so much worse. Keep 0-1, up their cost a bit, give them back Large Blast. They have to compete against Thropes and Carnifex, and it's no contest.

k) If warriors are improved, I think the current state of gaunts is probably okay. We just need Warriors to be a reliable source of synapse, and be able to keep up with gaunts/hormagaunts. Gaunts got hit hard from 3rd to 4th, though, I'm not sure which way to go for them.

l) Spore Mine clusters should fire all game, if anything (cost them as needed). 1 shot small blasts is a sick joke. If you scatter, these should do *nothing*.


To be honest, if the dakkafex went, I bet there would be little to no complaints against the current Nid codex (other than they need to improve a couple crappy units). That is the big one that needs to be addressed.

Ravenstien
15-10-2007, 21:53
I'll agree that the Dakkafex is silly-shooty, but even so, a shooty Carnifex just feels wrong. With a terrible ballistic skill of 3 (ok, it's good in numbers, like the guard, but not when you're firing a few shots), there's no point in taking the larger guns, as you're only hitting half the time, and you have to spend silly points if you want a twin-linked strangler or venom cannon. And you can't have two 'big' weapons on a Tyrant or 'Fex, that should be changed. It'd be expensive, but worth it.

I've only got one Dakkafex in my 'Zilla army, and a twin-deathspitter, and a twin-barbed strangler, all the rest are Screamer-killers or combat fexes.

The Elite 'Fexes are called 'Shock Troops'...that means COMBAT, not shooting. If the Shock Fexes weren't allowed ranged weaponry, or it was bodged so they couldn't take devourers because of the points, then it'd be fine. Plus the Shock Carnifexes should be given FoF, as currently they're just way too slow to be worthwhile. Most of the time I find my combat-fex lumbering around the enemy lines in turn 5, if I'm lucky. Don't give them a 6"+ D6" 'charge' move, because they'll be able to shoot *and* assault. Give them fleet and they won't shoot.

The Zoanthropes badly need a BS upgrade - with a ballistic skill of three, they only hit half the time, which makes them useless in my opinion, especially as Tyranids lack decent long-ranged anti-tank firepower. I don't know why people think Venom Cannons are good AT weapons...maybe I just haven't had enough experience with them...

Biovores need to be made better for sure, there's no competition between them, Carnifexes and Zoanthropes.

Lictors need fleet. Period. They also need a save upgrade, to 4+ minimum. 5+ just doesn't cut it in close combat, I mean Genestealers can have better armour than them for goodness sake (although I contest the claim that 4+ save genestealer armies are sick, they're not, Genestealers simply die out in the open - keep them in combat and they're fine, but woe betide the Hive Mind that leaves them in the open for a turn...).

Warriors need to be cheaper, or better at what they do, and they need fleet too. Wings are just way too expensive, and Leaping doesn't help either, plus if you take wings, they can only have 5+ save, which means they die to a light smattering of firepower.

Wings in general aren't overly good for 'Nids, sure you can move 12" a turn - bonus - but you have to spend 35 points on a Tyrant to give him a 2up which is simply mandatory on a Hive Tyrant. But the stupidest thing is that if you're nuts enough to deep strike (both times I've tried to deep strike with anything, they've been utterly slaughtered), you can't assault on the turn you land, which is nuts for a combat-orientated army. If anything they should be made so that if they land on an enemy, they count as charging, but it counts as landing in difficult terrain (well they are landing on peoples heads...), which would make it useable, but still a risk of losing some models (Hive Tyrants would only lose one wound instead of dying completely).

I agree when it's been said that everything should be given FoF...but you'd have to halve it if it was a monstrous creature...

LususNaturae
15-10-2007, 22:24
half of nids balance problems would be solved with the nerfing of the dakkafex. I like the shock troops idea, but i also agree that it should be CC screamer killers w/ FoF (why does chaos get a FoF MC but Nids dont?)

To make things fluffier, if you lower the cost of warrior and nerf the dakkafex, you will see more small squads of warriors w/ a VC to handle skimmers. more warriors = better fluff

lictors i agree w/ above posts. need to be cheaper, survive DS on top of enemy, ect.

i also agree w/ the better BS for Zoans. b/c zoans are so horrible at shooting, and have such short range, the HS are being filled with gunfexes, just for the range.

i do think that fexes should be allowed two guns. unless zoans range and BS increased, the VC is the best nid AT weapon out there

@ Ravenstien: with the high S of the VC, all you need to do is shake/stun the tank to shut it up for a turn so your troops can advance. which the VC does easily. If you think about the objective is to stun it, then when you blow it up, you're like "ohhh, bonus!"

Warp Field is pathetic. ive stopped using it on my flyrant cuz lascannons might as well ignroe a 6+ invul

i like ravenstiens take on DS winged nids.

all said, the codex is great, but hey, we can never be satisfied ;)

utrotaren
15-10-2007, 22:33
But dont leaping warriors get the fleet rule as the count as beast?

stonehorse
15-10-2007, 22:36
g) Broodlord should lose infiltrate and gain fleet. This was almost a throwback to 3rd edition Stealers, and it should be thrown out all together. People even use the Broodlord as ablative wounds (pick him first) so their Genestealers regain fleet... what a waste of an HQ slot

I though units lost Fleet if they joined were joined by an IC that dosen't have Fleet. If they get it back I may start using the Broodlord in such a manner.

Back on Topic.

The Tyranid Codex is I think one of the saving graces of 40K. The codex is so ful of choice and the army plays very well.

Kymmerus
15-10-2007, 23:11
But dont leaping warriors get the fleet rule as the count as beast?

Nope... they get a 12" charge but it specifically mentions they're not treated as beasts. p.33

Tulun
15-10-2007, 23:17
I though units lost Fleet if they joined were joined by an IC that dosen't have Fleet. If they get it back I may start using the Broodlord in such a manner.

Back on Topic.

The Tyranid Codex is I think one of the saving graces of 40K. The codex is so ful of choice and the army plays very well.

They do get it back; they lose the ability TO fleet because the Broodlord cannot fleet of foot. But, if he dies, the remaining Stealers still have this special rule, so could fleet as normal.

But, it's also a stupid design flaw that people would take a broodlord soley to be shot at so the rest of your stealers can fleet...

blackroyal
15-10-2007, 23:20
I would like to have some sort of Gaunt mutations again.

1-2 Rending claws and Ld 7 Hive nodes would really help Hormagaunt broods. I say Ld 7, since it is an improvement, but not all that "overpowered".

LususNaturae
15-10-2007, 23:51
I would like to have some sort of Gaunt mutations again.

1-2 Rending claws and Ld 7 Hive nodes would really help Hormagaunt broods. I say Ld 7, since it is an improvement, but not all that "overpowered".

hive node and mutations was one of the dumbest things in the old codex, imo. the mutations, especially the node, went against the fluff in so many ways.

most tyranid organisms are the same, the species mutates as a whole. not one little gaunt in a brood.

plus, the hive mind is supposed to control the gaunts, not the gaunts themselves

i'm glad they got rid of that part

blackroyal
16-10-2007, 00:19
plus, the hive mind is supposed to control the gaunts, not the gaunts themselves


I always played that the model that had the node was older/more developed and was more receptive to the hive mind. If that model died, no more node.

I would like, if not hive nodes, then an 18" synapse range on the Hive tyrant. This is what he had in 2nd and makes sence fluffwise. It also means that the faster guants won't run out of synapse range too quickly.

LususNaturae
16-10-2007, 00:29
hmm...18" synapse from the tyrant...i actually like that idea alot. it doesn't force you to take things like flyrants/flying warriors

natedogg710
16-10-2007, 01:08
I don't think it's just the Monstrous creatures or swarms of troops that give people problems, I think it is more of a combination. A tyranid player can have 3-4 hard MCs and still have plenty of points for masses of fast assault units (Flyrant, Raveners, 'stealers, Hormies) that tear through almost anything when they get in combat. It's a killer combination which is difficult to deal with for a lot of armies.

Just my 2 cents.

graveaccomplice
16-10-2007, 01:12
They do get it back; they lose the ability TO fleet because the Broodlord cannot fleet of foot. But, if he dies, the remaining Stealers still have this special rule, so could fleet as normal.

But, it's also a stupid design flaw that people would take a broodlord soley to be shot at so the rest of your stealers can fleet...

Not really poor design, just poor playing. Your sacrificing
a power weapon with rending and Str 5 with 5 attacks on the charge for the hope of getting lots of Rending attacks a round faster. If they don't get the Rend, you're stuck with attacks they get their armor save for. I'd rather just get the BL into combat. He'll do more damage overall.

Vermicious Knid
16-10-2007, 01:51
I play tyranids (and have since 2nd edition)...so I got lots of opinions here. :D

1. Tone down genestealers a bit. They really don't need to be faster (I) and more skilled (WS) than bloody aspect warriors. WS 5 and I 5 are fine, really. I don't know that they need LD 10 either. I would like infiltrate back, please.

2. Hormagaunts are far too expensive...and they do their job poorly. Give them acid maw and leaping and make them 7-8 points each. Ditch the beast category.

3. Tyranid warriors. Toughness 5, Armor 4. Make weapons prices sane. Allow "devestator squads" w/multiple heavy weapons as a heavy choice. Cheaper.

4. Ravener. See warrior above. Allow charge after deep strike.

5. Lictor. Chuck current version in trash bin. Come up with a unit that is actually useful. Boosting them in toughness would help, as would giving them an invulnerable save in HTH (dodge?). Make them independent of synapse. Treating them as a monstrous creature would be interesting. Allow to infiltrate instead of loopy deep strike.

6. Carnifex. Needs to be more expensive (yeah, I said it). Allow to take 2 of the same weapon (venom cannon, etc...) without twin-linking. Allow option of 12" charge range. Increase initiative...they do have reach if nothing else. I 3? Allow small broods (1-3?) as 1 heavy slot so as to avoid screwing people who bought 6 of the things. Eliminate as elite option.

7. Biovore/spore mines. Ordnance template. Increase points as needed.

8. Zoanthrope. BS 4. Allow a brood of Zoanthropes as an alternative retinue (same role as tyrant guard) or as an independent HQ choice. Replace psychic scream's -1 LD (which would be a problem if we allow more than 3 zoanthropes on the table) with something like the Pariah ability (set to LD7).

9. EVERYBODY. Fleet of foot.

max the dog
16-10-2007, 02:28
If they get rid of the elite Dakkafex (and I can understand why) then they're going to have to something to make the CC elite fex and warriors worth taking. If they dropped the cost of Scything Talons by just 1 point to 7 points each and allowed elite fex's (and only elite fex's) to take fleet for 10 points they you'd begin seing CC fex's all over again. Now he'd be a beast who could charge into battle along with the smaller gaunts.
Warriors could be viable again by giving them fleet for free and cutting the cost of some of the biomorphs and weapon upgrades. Most of them are priced right except bio-plasma and flesh hooks which should be a point cheaper. Leaping and winged should be cut to 5 and 8 points each from 8 and 14. For it's points the Deathspitter needs to be Assault x AP4 and without the blast. Twin linking should be for just an extra 50% not 100%.
With those changes we won't feel compelled to take the Dakkafex as much.

Finn
16-10-2007, 03:08
Nids was my first army, back at the start of 3rd ed as well.

My thoughts:

I would not be opposed to an army-wide fleet roll. It makes sense, IMO.

If you look back...Lictors used to have 3 wounds for the same points. They're worth it then...they should also be Fearless (I don't have the codex on me for reference at the moment) if they aren't already. 5+ save is fine, although IMO a 5+ Invuln.'dodge' save (similar to wyches and deathcult assassins) would make them worth 80 points at two wounds.

Warriors are a little expensive. 1 heavy weapon per 3 warriors would also be a huge plus. It's simply not worth it to take more than 4-6 warriors per brood. I typically field 3-5...There's no point to take more in most sizes of games.

Broodlord is a little silly, though I think he's fine as-is: the people I've seen use him don't use him as ablative wounds, he's quite powerful. Scratch that - he should have Always Infiltrate. He doesn't need fleet...

Warp field does need to be a 5+ invulnerable save. I'm not aware of any other invulnerable that's worse....even an IG's mere refractor is better.

Being able to take extended carapace on winged warriors would be nice...though I wouldn't do it, simply because the extra speed is killer - especially if an army-wide fleet rule gets introduced. Gargoyles have fleet still, yeah?

Hormagaunts cost about 1 point too much, and all their upgrades should cost 1 point instead of 1 or 2. That would make tricked out gaunts 13 points - about what they're worth, IMO.

Genestealers are fine - expensive to deck out, but if used properly while decked out they're the best CC unit in the game hands-down (even over clownmen). As they should be...although they do need infiltrate if mission allows again. Or perhaps the ability to buy it for 1 point/model. Genestealers not infiltrating = does not compute.

Termagants are pretty good for what you can expect them to do...5-point spinefists are very point-efficient.

Rippers need fleet. Perhaps at +1 point over current cost.

I'd be willing to pay 5 pts/model on a ravener for extended carapace, possibly in exchange for no longer deep striking. Dying to the multitude of AP 5 weapons is just silly.

Gargoyles need to come in plastic...otherwise, they're superb.

Carnifexes are fine. Should make it so the second weapon costs half if twin-linking the first weapon, otherwise normal cost for just a second gun. Should switch devourer/deathspitter points as well...Regen is about 5 points too much, and some of the other upgrades are overcosted but nothing too terrible.

Zoanthropes are excellent.

Biovores suck. Too powerful in third, too weak in fourth. They shouldn't be big blast templates, IMO the way to fix them would be to split them up again, make them non-reliant on synapse, and power up the mines a little bit - you can't honestly expect them to kill much at the moment, over their alternatives.

Tyrant guard need those spinefist shots back. They also need to ditch the dog-like models and go back to the third edition ones...

Tulun
16-10-2007, 03:27
Not really poor design, just poor playing. Your sacrificing
a power weapon with rending and Str 5 with 5 attacks on the charge for the hope of getting lots of Rending attacks a round faster. If they don't get the Rend, you're stuck with attacks they get their armor save for. I'd rather just get the BL into combat. He'll do more damage overall.

You'd be surprised, the shock of having a good number of genestealers live, and the poor Broodlord dying... Rending is great in large numbers of attacks. 5 attacks will only kill a max of 5 people with perfect rolling... 18 attacks can kill 18 models with perfect rolling. 18 > 5, when the 18 is all rending ^^. and the 6/6 move/assault is why Genestealers were so bleedin' terrible in 3rd, and why the broodlord's retinue is bleedin' terrible in 4th. And god forbid you roll Alpha rules...

Tulun
16-10-2007, 03:30
I would say Genestealers do not deserve infiltrate, though, not with fleet. With scuttling, it would mean first turn charges (unless you removed scuttling, but I think it does a better job of getting closer, and works 100% of the time!).

I like the current Genestealer. Fleet and improved save, it's two biggest issues in 3rd edition, and it lost infiltrate to balance out the improved speed.

yodasluck
16-10-2007, 07:37
So glancing through the 2 pages worth of comments, and I really see a lot of suggestions for "fixing" a number of lower tier selections. But what about making the synapse creatures a bit more important? I would suggest this: a 18-inch synapse range, but if a creature with synapse is killed, all Nids (synapse or not) would need to test at -2 Ld for "Synapse Shock" of losing a Hive Mind Node. Failure would result in rolling on the behavior table. This would make synapse creatures even more important and give a reason for leadership values in a Nid list.

This can be reflected in the fluff. Broods of Nids are shocked by the sudden loss of a Hive Node and slow their charge. This is noticed by observant opponents as the Nid wave slows and then regains it's direction.

Finn
16-10-2007, 08:19
Maybe only if they were completely out of Synapse...wouldn't make much (granted, does make some) sense to have to test while still under Synapse control....

graveaccomplice
16-10-2007, 09:18
You'd be surprised, the shock of having a good number of genestealers live, and the poor Broodlord dying... Rending is great in large numbers of attacks. 5 attacks will only kill a max of 5 people with perfect rolling... 18 attacks can kill 18 models with perfect rolling. 18 > 5, when the 18 is all rending ^^. and the 6/6 move/assault is why Genestealers were so bleedin' terrible in 3rd, and why the broodlord's retinue is bleedin' terrible in 4th. And god forbid you roll Alpha rules...


If you're being shot at, you've either lost first turn or you started 18" away. If you've only lost the BL, you you've only lost 3 genestealers. Unless you did something drastically wrong, you'll be on top of a unit or have it running for the hills (although WHICH until may be something your opponent can control through deployment) by your next round.

By losing the BL in favor of fleet, from you example, you lose the power weapon and a means of adding survivability in HtH for both (IC's attack as a separate unit: the opponent has to split their attacks) for the extremely slim chance of rolling more than 5 rending attacks a round faster. With the BL's str and pw ability, you're far more likely to get that many kill using his model.

I'm not claiming anyone's wrong, but IMO the benefits of the BL outway the benefits of fleet if you infiltrate properly.


Your BL also allows for tactics such as the gaunt rush. Deploy your BL in terrain, make sure it's the closest synapse, and watch your gaunt units fail their Ld check and break for said BL. Gaunts will get 3d6 movement, and h. gaunts will get 4d6! Give your BL feeder tendrils, and the ensuing mass assault means fighting the stealers with the gaunt units on either side hitting on 3+.

sebster
16-10-2007, 11:20
The more I read threads like this the more I realise the Tyranid codex is really pretty solid. Thing is, most of the suggestions people come up with seem to be either fixing problems that don’t exist or creating extra problems far greater than the current issue.

The 18” synapse range basically means you would hardly, if ever, need to worry about synapse. As it is synapse is rarely a problem for ‘nid armies, unless the other guy really, really targets your synapse, and the suggested rule change would just make that more obvious.

Giving warriors fleet means people will just give them leaping and turn them into slightly tougher raveners. You’ve ‘fixed’ a unit by turning it into a unit that’s already on the list. Instead there really needs to be some thought put into exactly what warriors should do in the tyranid list, and how new rules can help them perform that role. Are they the adaptable unit that can be modified in list building to be a slightly crappier version of another tyranid unit, or is there another role they can fill… as a multi-purpose unit on the field, capable of both ranged combat and assault depending on battlefield conditions.

Giving fleet to the monstrous creatures removes the key point of difference between them and the little bugs, making the list considerably more boring overall.

Giving the broodlord fleet, or giving ordinary genestealers infiltrate will allow you to deploy 12.1” from your opponent then move, fleet and assault him before he’s even had a turn. It’d allow a lot of first turn assaults and a lot of really crappy games. This is currently neatly avoided by the ‘you can fleet or take a broodlord and infiltrate’ option.



But to answer the OP’s question, the list at present is pretty solid. There’s a fair few options for the tyrant and carnifex that aren’t ever taken, but you can expect to see that generally. Most of the units are pretty solid, and none are completely overpowering.

In general, warriors, lictors, rippers and biovores are not great options. They could probably all be made useful with a points cut, and that would probably be enough for the rippers. But the other units really need some rethinking, and before new rules are made their role in the tyranid list needs to be properly established. Lictors clearly aren’t close combat death anymore, and they’re current support skills are pretty mediocre… should they be geared up assaulty death, or maybe character assassins? If biovores keep their small templates, there role clearly isn’t to take out massed infantry, so what is it… they can’t do anything at present a gunfex can’t do better and more reliably. Warriors I mentioned above, they need to find their own role in the list, not just left as a list of options allowing you to turn them into crappy version of other units in the list.

On the other side of the coin, tyrants and shooty carnifex are a little overpowering, and could probably just be properly sorted out by upping their points costs a little.

oCoYoRoAoKo
16-10-2007, 12:39
ok, ive read through this thread and a few points are bugging me:

1) killing off a broodlord in a unit of stealers. how are you able to do this since when being shot at, you use the majority save rule (assuming the BL has the same save as the stealers), removing whole models with the majority save first. additionally, normally you have to remove whole models from shooting where possible so if the unit takes say, 2 wounds wouldnt you have to remove 2 stealers instead of taking 2 wounds off the BL?

2) using the BL as a foreward synapse post for an extended move on gaunts for a first turn charge. how does this work as synapse is taken at the beginning fo the turn, and the movement is done in the movement phase, whilst the regrouping (due to synapse) is done at the beginning of the movement phase before the actual move takes place.

on a side note, for improvements to the codex:

1) i would revert biovores back to their old rules (although they are not as bad at the mo as they seem because thieir mines use the barrage rules. however the zoans and fex are really just that little bit better).

2) give the lictor its 3 wounds back and possibly make it come into play like the culexus assasin (the lictor is already there so why does it deepstrike inside the terrain?)

3) make warriors cheaper or give them a 4+ save with the option to go to 3+

4) fleet as a racial rule would be nice (sorts out the lack of assaulty fex problem)

5) take away the "living ammo" rule from devourers OR remove their twin linked status (i think that this may be a reasonable alternative to just taking away the dakka fex altogether, and helps to tone down twin dev tyrants)

Cy.

graveaccomplice
16-10-2007, 12:47
ok, ive read through this thread and a few points are bugging me:

1) killing off a broodlord in a unit of stealers. how are you able to do this since when being shot at, you use the majority save rule (assuming the BL has the same save as the stealers), removing whole models with the majority save first. additionally, normally you have to remove whole models from shooting where possible so if the unit takes say, 2 wounds wouldnt you have to remove 2 stealers instead of taking 2 wounds off the BL?

A BL starts with a 4+ save. Give the GS's extended carapace and yoyur BL is now part of the majority. The 'whole models' part is a debate that's been going on for some time. It depends on how you read the wording


2) using the BL as a foreward synapse post for an extended move on gaunts for a first turn charge. how does this work as synapse is taken at the beginning fo the turn, and the movement is done in the movement phase, whilst the regrouping (due to synapse) is done at the beginning of the movement phase before the actual move takes place.

Cy.

It's being used to (hopefully, the dice willing) get a move distance larger than the usual 6" + Fleet (somewhere between 12" and 16" for H. Guants, and figure that most missions allow you to start 12" to 15" from the board edge). When they rally at the biginning of the next round, you get the 6" + Fleet + a 6" or 12" assault. It's not a means for getting a first turn charge, it's a means of hopefully getting that charge a or two round sooner.

grizzly ruin
16-10-2007, 12:50
But by the same token, MC can't transport infantry, or decimate a squad a turn whilst remaining utterly invulnerable to most weapons fire!

Of course that really doesn't matter when your infantry have fleet.

Not requiring easy to pop transports, most of which can't be assaulted out of, to get your units across the field so you can load up on monstrous creatures is in no way shape or form, a disadvantage.

oCoYoRoAoKo
16-10-2007, 12:51
ah, ok thanks.