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MvS
05-09-2005, 18:58
Back in the days of Portent I wrote and compiled a "pre-history" for the 40K universe based around the various codices, rulebooks and, of course, the many, many discussions on the Portent boards.

Diverse people gave feedback for me to improve the timeline, but because of other writing pressures I didn't manage to post it before Portent went down. Quite recently some people on these boards have commented on the old pre-history, so here it is along with my notes. Feel free to comment and make suggestions, but please, please, please don't post anything in this thread until I have posted the last part of the history. I want each section to flow into the next without being broken up with questions.

There will be plenty of space and time for comments and criticisms after I finish posting. So anyway, here goes...

MvS
05-09-2005, 19:00
40K Pre-History

Pre- 10,000,000,000 + B.C.

’Big Bang’. Universe comes into being. The Materium and Immaterium side by side. The Warp possesses laws seemingly contrary to Real-Space, possessing no physical dimensions as could be understood by an observer within the Materium.

The oldest stars begin to coalesce as raw gaseous giants. Pre-sensate C’tan start to form.

Circa. 10,000,000,000 B.C.

Planets form. Pre-sensate biological life begins to emerge. The ebb and flow of this basic biological life begins to affect the Warp in an entirely vague-yet-symbiotic ‘tidal’ fashion. There is no sentience so no thoughts coalesce within the Warp.

As primitive creatures and animals begin to evolve, their experiences, emotive responses and basic perceptions feed the Warp. The first coalescences or 'Islands in the Warp' begin to form, but these are entirely 'lifeless' things – psychic aggregates that could be regarded as metaphysical elements or compounds, like rocks, water, or gas.

Circa. 80,000,000 B.C.

Slann have emerged as the dominant species on their homeworld. Their sentience is very different from all subsequent races to evolve in the galaxy. Although they have individual minds and are complete and intelligent beings as individuals, their minds also exist simultaneously and fully consciously within the Warp as a kind of group mind. As such they do not empathise or emote with each other, because they do not need to. They already fully understand each other and share identical goals. They do not posses individual ambitions.

Their awareness and knowledge of the Warp is inherent. The Slann do not fully perceive the separation between the Materium and Immaterium that later races do, because they exist simultaneously and consciously in both. The Warp is enriched and made more active by the logic and Zen-like 'Oneness' of the Slann’s thoughts – the Warp is still entirely harmonious however. Although the wild and monstrous ancestors of a few other species are slowly evolving (Necrontyr being the first amongst them), the Slann become first to reach into the stars. They have learned how to manipulate the still-pure energies of the Warp and how warp energy effects the physical laws of the Materium. Basic Warpgate technology developed.

The thought and emotion emanations of the earliest ancestors of other sentient and intelligent life-forms begin to have an effect upon the Warp, causing the original lifeless Warp aggregates to have a kind of momentum, creating strange vortices of experience and emotion. Completely lacking many of the drives and passions of later races, and permeated by the warp as much as they occupy it, the Slann themselves do not cause any coagulations or vortices within the Warp. The Slann are fascinated by this process that they themselves cannot yet understand, and they are drawn to these vortices and aggregates within the Warp like Moths to light.

The Slann find that to a small degree they can influence these disturbances and impose predictable patterns upon them to a small degree, but they cannot yet create such disturbances themselves. But not being able to create such structures themselves, the Slann are drawn to the inactive ‘islands’ within the Warp. Their curiosity towards these ‘islands’ is completely obsessive. Moving through these warp islands affects the Slann in curious ways, and they also act as a kind of fixed point or measure within the otherwise dimensionless and infinite potential of the Warp.

Both addicted to experiencing and witnessing these new movements within the warp, and fascinated by their development, the Slann encourage different life-forms to develop in different environments and with varying degrees of intelligence and connection to the Warp, just to observe what happens. The Slann begin to seed thousands of worlds all across the galaxy with life, and tweak the biological and psychic makeup of many existing life forms. Their actions are incredibly slow and methodical, they spend countless millennia developing and analysing eco-systems on thousands of planets, protecting some from random happenstances as controlled experiments, while leaving others to the forces of the universe. Most planets they incept with life are little more that Petri dishes to them, and they impose harsh and unpleasant environments as readily as they create seeming utopias, all to observe what effect these have upon the thoughts and feelings of living creatures, and therefore what effect these have within the Warp.

They notice that the sun above the planet of the burgeoning civilisation of the Necrontyr has begun to decay rapidly due to the predation of some sort of massive cloud-like parasite (later named and personified as the C'tan, Khaelis Ra). The Slann use their talents to assure that the Necrontyr do not die out, however, and also assure that the biology of the Necrontyr does not ever adapt entirely to their environment, and in fact cause the Necrontyr to suffer from their blight no matter how far they travel away from the dying star of their home-system.

The resulting disturbances within the warp prove stimulating and fascinating in equal measure.

Circa. 65,500,000 B.C.

Slann technology reaches its pinnacle. It is a blend of fathomlessly complex crystalline biological constructs that are symbiotic with their creators, perhaps actually part of their creators, and almost entirely psychic in nature. Warpgate technology is perfected. The Slann have spawned in their countless billions and have traversed the Warp, opening portals into the Materium almost at random. As a result, they either directly control or at least have a presence across roughly 70% the galaxy, and have explored at least in passing around 90% of it. They continue their experiments wherever they go.

Each individual Slann not only has the same drives and purposes as the entirety of its race, but it also has the technology and warp-power to affect an entire planet all by itself. One Slann can have a profound affect upon an entire star system, altering, observing and ultimately controlling everything that happens within it as the Slann so pleases. As their minds are joined within the Warp, the experiments and experiences of the Slann are linked and observed in real-time across the galaxy by every other Slann through their shared super-identity within the Warp. Even if they could feel such emotions, the Slann never get lonely or feel isolated because of this connection, and they spend much of their time actually within the Warp rather than in stations or habitats within the Materium.

The Necrontyr reach intelligence as a species and rise to dominate their homeworld. They are a physically blighted species and their technologies only seem to allay the symptoms of their strange and ever shifting genetic flaws rather than eradicate them. As the millennia pass they begin to reach into space and colonise their own harsh solar system. The Slann watch the slow expansion of the Necrontyr with interest, as they are the first race other than the Slann themselves to develop technology sufficient enough to reach into space – all without any help from the Slann. Largely ignoring the Necrontyr’s physical development, and still absorbed with the disturbances within the Warp caused by the egos, drives and desperation of the Necrontyr, the Slann disdain all contact with them for millennia.

MvS
05-09-2005, 19:02
Circa. 65,490,000 B.C.

The Necrontyr have forged their own empire comprising of the few star-systems around their home system. They finally encounter the Slann and have begun to comprehend the Slann's vast influence across the galaxy, although the Slann disdain all direct communication with the Necrontyr. They largely ignore the progress of this younger race within the Materium, fixated instead on their effect upon the Warp. The Necrontyr become deeply resentful of the Slann’s seeming absolute control over the space around the Necrontyr Empire, and the ruthlessly enforced interdict placed around further Necrontyr expansion. The only indication that the Necrontyr have that this interdict exists is when their ships enter any region the Slann don’t wish them to, only to be eradicated.

The Necrontyr are deeply suspicious of the Slann. They are aware that the Slann have manipulated and even created many eco-systems across the galaxy, and the Necrontyr have become jealous of many of the Slann’s other primitive, though often seemingly perfect, creations when they themselves are a short lived race blighted with genetic flaws. They are also jealous, and not a little frightened by what they suspect to be the Slann’s own immeasurable life spans.

They send out emissaries to what they assume to be the Slann’s many shmmering, quasi-organic and partially extra-dimensional stations scattered throughout Necrontyr space, and they also send out transmissions in every language and mathematical algorithm they can come up with in an attempt to communicate with the Slann. They wish to share in the Slann’s arcane and technological secrets.

The Slann do not respond for centuries, perceiving and experiencing time and its passing differently from the Necrontyr. Finally a message arrives from the Slann. It suddenly appears within the mind of every living Necrontyr, though not as words, but instead as a sudden and complete understanding of a simple fact. The Slann will not help the Necrontyr. The Necrontyr are an experiment. The Necrontyr also get the vaguest impression of how their ultimate ancestors were altered buy the Slann.

As a unified inter-stellar civilisation the Necrontyr declare total war against the Slann. The Necrontyr become ever more martial, permanently seeking ways to move against the more advanced Slann. Each time the Necrontyr move against the Slann they are easily driven back – despite the Necrontyr’s ever improving technologies. After a millennia of this, the Necrontyr as a species have become entirely obsessed with warfare and technological advancement, with each and every one of their people bending their entire lives to improving and strengthening their species in whatever way they can.

Although the Slann never choose to eradicate the Necrontyr, they eventually tire of the constant, if sporadic, incursions by this blighted race. Finally, they push the Necrontyr to the galactic rim and abandon them there in the weak light of dying stars.

Defeated but still determined, the Necrontyr become ever more inward looking, advancing and perfecting their already considerable technologies. Eventually they perceive the vast and ethereal entities they call the C’tan and somehow begin the millennia-long process of trying to communicate with the star-gods diffuse minds.

Meanwhile, and much to the obsessive fascination and of the Slann, the first great Vortex of mortal experiences and emotions has begun to form in the Warp. It is forming first from the Necrontyr’s desire to expand into the stars, then from their fury towards and hatred of the Slann, and finally from the violence of their thousand year long war.

Circa. 65,485,000 B.C.

The C’tan become personified into physical bodies through the efforts of Necrontyr incredible technology. The Necrontyr have mastered nano-technology, the pinnacle of which is the Necrodermis technology of the C’tan, which actually sculpts molecules into new forms using tiny and tightly controlled gravitational fields. This is the rarest and hardest to produce of all Necrontyr technology.

Because the Slann have long used their control of the Warp to block the Necrontyr access to it, the Necrontyr have developed spacecraft that can actual ‘fold’ space, enabling them to cross vast tracts of space in the blink of an eye without needing access to the Warp. Despite the fact that the Necrontyr have negligible awareness and effect upon the Warp (perhaps even less than the Tau in the current era), the fact that the entirety of the Necrontyr race have begun to worship the C’tan as gods and have faith in these ‘gods’ that far outstrips the C’tan’s abilities, strange new momentum is caused within the Warp. This conscious and willing exaggeration of expectation begins to cause crystalline concepts to bind with basic drives and emotions within the Warp for the first time. While the Slann are utterly absorbed with this phenomena, the C’tan spread their influence across the handful of star-systems that comprise the Necrontyr Empire.

Within a few centuries the C’tan are now the undisputed rulers and gods of the Necrontyr. Yet the C'tan were driven insane when the Necrontyr coalesced them into the metallic Necrodermi. C'tan intelligence and consciousness was subtly degraded in some aspects and upgraded in others, but as they were essentially ripped from their natural habitat the trauma shifted their perceptions and unhinged their minds even as it focussed their minds in to one space and time. They have become addicted in the most profound and unwholesome way to the ‘taste’ of the electrical, magnetic and other energy sources within sentient life. The C’tan consume the entire Necrontyr race and encase their basic thought engrams within the sophisticated neural networks of highly advanced robotic bodies. The Necrons as they are known today are born. Desperate for more lives to consume, the C’tan lead their metallic slaves to ‘harvest’ the other burgeoning races in the galaxy.

This time of conflict and consumption would have give birth to some lasting Warp aggregates and vortices. The Slann lose almost all interest in the Materium, completely fixated upon the changes within the Warp, sampling and experiencing them and musing as to their meaning.

Circa. 65,460,000 B.C.

Though it has taken them nearly 30,000 years, the C’tan have expanded across the galaxy faster than the Slann thought possible. They have taken complete control of roughly 20% of the galaxy, but only areas not controlled by the Slann themselves. Many of the ancient races that evolved independently of the Necrons and Slann have been enslaved or consumed by the C’tan. Only now do the C’tan turn their attentions to the holdings of the Slann themselves, devouring races that have been seeded and nurtured by the Slann. Facing for the first time in their existence a genuine challenge to their own dominance within the Materium, and for the first time in millions of years some of their number experiencing physical harm, the Slann move their attention away from the Warp slightly and mobilise to protect their creations and experiments from the C’tan onslaught. The First War in Heaven begins.

The battle cannot be won by the Slann as easily as before. The galaxy divides into three spheres, those controlled by the Slann, those controlled by the C’tan, and various "no man's lands", demilitarised zones, devestated expanses and hidden empires areas that aren't controlled by either side. The C’tan are completely intoxicated with their corporeal forms and their immense powers, and their perspectives have shifted drastically. Defeating the Slann becomes less important than enjoying their godlike status. The C’tan spend hundreds of thousands of years pushing many species up the evolutionary ladder towards intelligence and then totally dominating them as gods. Countless thousands of races and civilisations rise, are enslaved by the C’tan, and, as the millennia pass, are consumed.

This respite in their otherwise unending war gives the Slann some breathing space to observe the changes wrought upon the galaxy and within the Warp. They realise that the C’tan really are a threat and may disrupt or even destroy all the Slann’s experiments, and maybe even the Slann themselves. Although they do not possess individual fears and knowing that their sentience can exist in the Warp beyond physical death, still the Slann do not wish to have their work unravelled by the C’tan.

They lay down the biological blueprints of various new life forms rooted in the Materium as the Slann are not (or, at least, not enough to focus on the physical battle against the C’tan), that will be intelligent and more ambitious warriors than the Slann themselves. They will be populace and expendable soldiers to fight against the C’tan. The Rashan are first of these new creations to rise to intelligence, but their homeworld is too close to where Slann space borders the space controlled by the C’tan. Before the Rashan can develop adequate technologies to defend themselves against the Necrontyr, the civilisation is consumed by the C’tan, its few survivors scattered and lost.

The Slann lay the seeds of their second great warrior race, the Eldar. They decide that that this race will have to evolve with an inherent ability to protect itself from the C’tan, with or without technology. They resolve that these new creatures will have to have the strongest link to the Warp of all intelligent life forms (other than the Slann themselves), and perhaps even find ways to harness the strange vortices and aggregates within the Warp as weapons in this battle.

MvS
05-09-2005, 19:03
Circa. 65,000,000 B.C.

The harvests of life begin to thin within the C’tan’s demarcation of the galaxy and so they begin to spread into the Slann space again. The Slann resist them with a vehemence that exceeds all prior engagements between the two species. The Slann prove powerful indeed and manage to hold back the C’tan. Their new expansion is too slow for the C’tan, and for this reason, and countless other more enigmatic ones, the C’tan begin to turn on one another. They turn their Necron servants, and countless other slave races against each other. Even going to the extent of seeding their own biological races, ushering them through evolution and then using them as pawns in their wars against each other – or simply consuming them all.

The Slann as a race begin a slow decline as the C’tan slowly but surely begin to defeat and consume them as well. Though the Eldar have now emerged as a definite species, they have as yet only reached primitive intelligence, and so are not yet ready to fight against the C’tan and their Necrons. The Slann continue to seed new races in a desperate attempt to balance out the vast consumption of life by the C’tan. A species that will one day be called the K’nib take the first steps upon the path to intelligence.

Circa. 60,100,000 B.C.

No more than twelve of the C’tan have survived their fraternal and cannibalistic wars, but these are amongst the most powerful or devious and they are still more than enough to destroy the Slann and their works. The Slann return to the Eldar. They see that the Eldar have become a rich and vibrant culture (similar to a Utopian view of ancient Greece). Most pleasingly to the Slann, they see that the Eldar have become powerful psykers and magicians and can re-incarnate after death. They have also subconsciously used their talents to create and personify benevolent Warp entities. There are two entities, Isha and Kurnous, and they personify various constructive traits and beliefs of the Eldar, like the symbiotic relationship with nature and the joy of life. The Eldar worship them as gods and much to the Slann’s surprise, though they are entities forged from concept and given form by the power of the Warp, they can manifest themselves in the physical universe for long periods of time (living in harmony with the Eldar), due to the Eldar’s immense psychic power as a race and passionate belief in them. The Eldar have a third ‘god’ whom they call Asuryan, although this is not a god that is yet personified within the Warp. Asuryan is the name and identity the Eldar have given to their concept of the Great Balance, the Warp in its pure state. Asuryan’ could be seen as a balanced version of Chaos Undivided – not really an entity, but not just a concept either. The Slann come to believe that this ‘Asuryan’ is in fact the Eldar’s culturally stylised vision of the structures and flows imposed within the Warp by the cold logic of the Slann.

Though much more powerful than the Eldar, these young ‘gods’ can by no means match the combined psychic might of the Slann. Then another of the elder races, the Vendichi, one of the few surviving races that evolved by themselves (after both the Slann and the Necrontyr had reached into the galaxy), discover the Eldar’s world. They have been brutalised by tens of thousands of years of war, and they are fleeing the C’tan. They attack the Eldar homeworld. The Slann reveal themselves to the Eldar and help them fight these invaders, taking little direct action themselves in the fighting. The Eldar perceive the ancient wisdom and greatness of the Slann, and are the first to call them the ‘Old Ones’ – a term that will spread throughout the galaxy in many languages and through many other subsequent races.

The Old Ones realise how useful the Eldar’s ‘gods’ would be in a battle against the C’tan, and encourage the Eldar to use their Warp born powers and gods against the invaders. The Eldar are victorious and the Vendichi are shattered and forced to flee in disarray.

Circa. 60,099,000 B.C.

The Eldar have developed into a highly intelligent culture. They have little or no technology as we might understand it, but as fundamentally warp-attuned creatures, they have learned to use to use warp in a way that other races might use physical material without giving a second thought to it. They cause crops and herbs to grow through a kind of psychic manipulation rather than just physical labour with the plough and hoe. However, the Eldar are not completely removed from the land, and they have not yet learned the arcane spirit-technology of Wraithbone and Wraithstones. This comes later. This being said, Eldar civilisation is similar in many ways to an even more contemplative and philosophically-inclined ancient Athens, only relying on their psychic powers to support them instead of slavery.

Over the millennia the Old Ones have subtly guided the Eldar and encouraged them to look deeper into the Warp and tap into the Great Vortex that has been building in there since the Necrontyr first brought war to the Old Ones and had grown steadily over the millions of years since then. This Vortex is the potential that will one day be Khorne, and it is greater in power than the tiny vortices that are the Eldar’s existing gods, although it has no identity. The Old Ones encourage the Eldar to give it an identity and a purpose, and manifest it upon the mortal plane. So Khaine is born, intended by the Old Ones to be their greatest weapon against the C’tan.

Finally, with the Old Ones’ guidance and the power of their new gods, the Eldar learn how to open actual portals or ‘doorways’ into the Warp, through which they can step from world to world without the need for technology. The C’tan get wind of this somehow and bring war to the Eldar. The Eldar fight back with colossal psychic forces, knowing that even if they died in battle their souls would survive to be reborn. No longer united and so complacent are they in their godlike abilities, the C’tan are unprepared for the magnitude and power of the Eldar’s attack. They assumed that the Eldar’s almost complete lack of technology would make them easy meat, but such are the Eldar’s psychic abilities that they don’t need spaceships or advanced technologies to be able to do almost all the things that the Necrons can. For the first time in millions of years the C’tan’s armies are sent reeling.

Circa. 60,092,000 B.C.

The C’tan have begun to fight back in earnest. The K’nib join with the Eldar in an uneasy alliance against the C’tan. As the war stretches on and on, Khaine’s influence over the Eldar grows. Over time the Eldar’s beliefs are influenced by the K’nib’s beliefs and several other young races that are slowly emerging. The Eldar’s understanding and use of the Warp continues to grow. More gods have come into being including Vaul, Hoeth, Lilaeth and Morai-Heg (Ingenuity, Wisdom & quest for Wisdom, the creation and study of warpcraft and finally the idea of Fate & notion that some knowledge is Hidden and Unknowable). All help (and are used by) the Eldar against the C’tan - though none now are as powerful as Khaine.

Perceiving (too late) the threat posed by the growing the Warp Gods, and seeing all their plans coming undone, the Old Ones rush through the creation of the Krork and the Jokaero – deliberately unimaginative warrior races that would have a higher resistance to the Warp Powers and would be able to expand across vast tracts of space very quickly and fight back against the Necrons.

MvS
05-09-2005, 19:04
Circa. 60,080,000 B.C.

The Entire galaxy is in turmoil.

The Eldar have proved to be the most fertile and long lived of all races, living for many thousands of years and remaining able (and willing) to produce offspring throughout their incredibly long lives. With the continued blessings of Isha, the Eldar’s fertility goddess, Eldar females are able to recover to full health incredibly quickly from child birth, and are able to conceive safely within a short period of giving birth, should they so choose. Giving birth to twins and triplets is the norm for Eldar women. Resultantly, the Eldar have spread right across the galaxy and are the most populous species next to the Necron machines.

Over the millennia Eldar technology has not advanced particularly, largely because their considerable psychic powers have gone from strength to strength. With their many gods at their side, and their own grasp of the ways of the Warp, the Eldar can do almost anything with magic that the Necrontyr can do with technology. However, the Eldar are as held back by their gods as they are helped by them. Millions of years of war and worship as gods has begun to affect the already inexplicable minds of the C’tan. As it becomes harder and harder for them to consume the Eldar at will, they have once again turned upon each other – predominantly at the prompting of the C’tan called Mephet’ran.

As the younger races grow in ingenuity, pushing back the boundries of science and sorcery, seeking to ever increase their knowledge and improve their lot in life, the various Warp Vortices of all the many races that represent anything to do with ingenuity, knowledge and wisdom, have expanded exponentially, and have been bound together by a new and massive vortex that is the product of all mortals’ desire to change; to pursue and forge the future – a Vortex of hope that the C’tan might one day be defeated and that Galactic War might one day be brought to an end. These vortices have begun to merge together, forming the pre-sensate, proto-Tzeentch, a vortex that is now almost as big as the Vortex of anger, hatred, domination and warfare that is Khaine.

The personalities of these vortices become ever more distinct and they now possess identity beyond that which the Eldar and other younger races have given them. Khaine desires ever more efficient warriors and so has ‘imprisoned’ the gods Isha and Kurnous because they promote rustic and tranquil notions that are at odds with Khaine’s need for violence, anger and bloodshed in the war against the C’tan.

Circa. 60,078,000 B.C.

Four C’tan remain. On the planet that will one day be called ‘Terra’, the Old Ones have laid down the gene strands that will eventually become active within the intelligent and psychically active species of humanity. The C’tan have united against the Eldar, the Old Ones and the other young races. Mephet’ran has established himself as a god in many different mythologies, in times benevolent and malevolent, anarchic and orderly. He has spent millennia playing races and gods off against each other, whether they be other C’tan and their servants, or the Warp gods and their peoples.

The Warp gods have become incredibly powerful, easily the equal of the C’tan – and more. The Old Ones find their attentions divided between guiding the younger races, restraining the power and ambition of the Warp gods, and fighting the C’tan. The Old Ones are essentially fighting on three fronts, and their numbers are dwindling. Eldanesh and Ulthanesh are born with the ability to control even the greatest of the Warp gods, while limiting their ambition and keeping them manifested within strict parameters.

Vaul, now exceedingly powerful in his own right (and in one sense a minor aspect of the slowly awakening Greater God, Tzeentch), strikes a deal with Khaine, he wants Isha and Kurnous released because they promote ideas that are at odds with Khaine, and will therefore sap Khaine of some of his power. He does not explain his reasoning to Khaine, but instead promises to forge the mighty War God the one hundred swords of unsurpassed power, that will be able to slay both Warp entity and Necrontyr with equal ease, while also empowering its possessor with great strength and a powerful bloodlust. Khaine agrees and the One Hundred Swords of Khaine are forged, although one disappears – perhaps stolen by one of the C’tan, or whisked away by the Old Ones, or perhaps even hidden by Vaul himself or some other Warp entity. Khaine does not yet notice the missing blade and so releases Kurnous and Isha.

Khaelis-Ra slays Ulthanesh who has the misfortune of bearing a non-magical blade. Yet, thanks largely to information given to him by Mephet’ran (in the guise of the Great Harlequin), Khaine manages to defeat Khaelis Ra in combat, shattering the Star God’s Necrodermis. But Khaine is almost destroyed himself, finding his own essence trapped in the star god’s Necrodermis – something alive enough for a warp god to posses (willingly or otherwise), but something not dead enough for a Warp god to escape at will. Worst of all, Khaine’s physical aspect is further tainted by association with Khaelis Ra, and Khaine becomes ever more desiring of death in his own name.

Perhaps Vaul/proto-Tzeentch planned for this, for while Khaine’s physical presence is bound to a metal body and therefore physical laws, he no longer has the near omnipresence of other Warp Gods. Having experienced true pain for the first time, and having known something less than absolute victory, Khaine becomes ever more frustrated and angry.

After his own defeat, Khaelis Ra roars through the galaxy, his fury descending like rain on any and all creatures he passes. He causes every asteroid and meteor in his path to accelerate away from him furiously at random. The ensuing chaos brings about the cataclysm that causes the Dinosaurs on Terra to become all-but extinct.

Khaine’s own fury at his injuries while facing Khaelis Ra, and the fear, pain and suffering caused by Khaelis Ra throughout the galaxy leave an indelible stain upon certain parts of the Warp, generated by the species destroyed and tortured over the millions of years by Khaelis Ra. His image, that of the shrouded and frightening Reaper is plucked subconsciously fresh from the Warp by each new generation of sentient and intelligent races that evolve from this time right the way down to the 41st Millennium.

Such is the immense turmoil in the Warp only the strongest Eldar psykers can re-incarnate now, where all of them used to be able to before Khaelis-Ra instilled so much fear in them.

MvS
05-09-2005, 19:07
Circa. 60,070,000 B.C.

Either the Great Harlequin, or Mephet’ran posing as him, has driven the Outsider insane. No one is sure why. Though not dead, the Outsider vanishes from history.

The K’nib and the Jokaero have learned the secrets of Warp travel, though their grasp is by no means as superb as the Eldar. Due predominantly to the continuous use of magic and Warpgates, many daemons and gods of the other younger races (not just the Eldar) walk the galaxy, although none are as powerful or widely worshipped as the Eldar’s gods or the C’tan themselves. Such is the strain upon the fabric of the Materium in some regions, Warpgates have begun to open and close apparently of their own accord.

The Old Ones are besieged from all sides of the physical and metaphysical universes and their most ancient civilisation is all but gone. In their own inexplicable way, many of the Old Ones have begun to develop individual goals and egos, separating themselves from their races super-mind within the Warp and ultimately go insane. This is due to the ever more ‘cluttered’ and violently tempestuous nature of the Warp, which is pulling their attention and consciousnesses in every direction while also bombarding and permeating their minds and souls with sensations, concepts and emotions that are not natural to the psyche, spirituality and neurology of their species. The logic framework they had imposed on the Warp is just a distant memory, as violent and sudden variation fill the Warp, creating entropy and chaos. Without this framework, many of the Slann ho have not been cursed by the insanity of independent egos begin to find themselves increasingly devoid of thought, almost mindless, due predominantly to their inability to evolve or act outside of their original mind/Warp based framework.

In exchange for secrets of Necron technology, Vaul tells Mephet’ran that the greatest threat from amongst the Warp Gods is Khaine, and tells him that the best way to destroy Khaine would be by turning the Eldar against him. He tells the C’tan that without the Eldar’s respect and faith to sustain him, the personified identity Khaine will gradually dissipate.

So Mephet’ran poses as Khaine in many battles against the Eldar, causing them to believe that their god has sided with the C’tan. They war against Khaine. For his part, Khaine comes to perceive that his Eldar children have become tainted by the C’tan – he perhaps even knows that Mephet’ran is posing as numerous gods and heroes in an attempt to poison the Eldar against their physically manifested god, Khaine.

His rage, and the Eldar's growing lack of trust in him, pushes Khaine over the edge to insanity. Without the Eldar’s respect and strict beliefs to bind him, Khaine comes more and more to personify rage, bloodlust and the psychotic urge to kill for killing’s sake. He turns on the Eldar. Eldanesh, the last Eldar prince who can control the Warp gods to any large degree, tries to bring Khaine back under control. Yet Eldanesh's control extends only to Eldar gods and certain other less powerful Warp entities, whereas Khaine has evolved beyond the Eldar's racial memory and has acquired a good measure of independence – meaning he is no longer bound to one specific species but gets his energy from all sentient species.

With Eldanesh gone, Vaul also becomes more independent from the Eldar (which may well have been part of his plan all along, perhaps as a demonstration of the subtle manipulation of the as-yet still unrealised proto-awareness that is Tzeentch.

Throughout his war against the Eldar at no point does Khaine vanish like Vaul had led Mephet’ran to believe.

Mephet’ran the Deceiver has in turn been deceived. Finally realising the magnitude of the threat posed to them by the Warp Gods, Mephet’ran and the other two remaining C’tan (the Dragon and Khaelis Ra) unite for the first time in millennia and begin their Great Work to seal of the physical plane from the Warp.

Meanwhile, using a hybrid of Necron technology, his own Warp-born sorceries and countless Eldar artisans, Vaul creates the ‘Iron Knights’ that would be physical repositories for Eldar souls, in a similar way to how the Necron’s bodies were receptacles for neural-patterns only. Where the Necrons use metal alloys and incredibly advanced nano-technologies, Vaul and his Eldar acolytes ‘grow’ weapons, armour, vessels and buildings from various psycho-reactive crystals and the magic-warped primitive life form first cultivated by the Old Ones that is similar to a kind of psychically-reactive coral, but with properties similar to the very strongest metals – this material becomes known as Wraithbone.

Vaul teaches the Eldar how to use these mighty tools against the ‘Dragon’ – the most technologically minded of the C’tan, and the one that has been most successful exterminating the Eldar. Also, the Dragon is the C’tan who is providing most of the slaves and technology for the Great Work.

This buys Vaul and Morai Heg (separate entities, but also Vortices existing upon the periphery of the greater Vortex of magic, ingenuity and hope that is the proto-Tzeentch) time to create their great Talismans that will be able to utterly destroy the C’tan, again using hybrid Necron technology (evident to this day in the strange pyramid-shaped heart of the Blackstone Fortresses) crossed with the arcane technologies of sorcery.

When Mephet’ran finds out he goes to Khaine in his disguise of the Eldar’s Great Harlequin, (as he had done before Khaine’s battle with Khaelis Ra). He convinces Khaine that he can help him get revenge upon Vaul for tricking Khaine into releasing Isha and Kurnous – the event that led to Khaine’s physical incarceration in Khaelis Ra’s Necrodermis. As Vaul and the Dragon move to fight one another upon the Dragon’s primary tomb world (the planet that will one day be called Mars), Khaine and Mephet’ran descend in their fury with vast armies.

Now facing Khaine, Mephet’ran and the Dragon, Vaul knows he cannot win, but still unleashes the power of his Talismans before escaping with them into the Warp. The Dragon is seriously injured and Mephet’ran flees. Khaine is not so easily put off from his rage, and is absolutely saturated by the Warp energy spewed out from the Talismans. In his insane fury Khaine turns on the weakened Dragon, mutilating the him and casting him down, toppling a mountain on top of him, trapping him deep within the crust of Mars – this is the seed of the confused legend that Khaine blinded Vaul and chained him to his anvil. The Dragon’s weakened incorporeal essence flees into its crypt and is not seen again.

MvS
05-09-2005, 19:07
Circa. 60,069,000 B.C.

The Old Ones’ civilisation finally collapses. Their homeworlds in the Materium are shattered by the C’tan and the Necrons, and their minds and souls have been consumed or driven insane by the millions of major and minor warp entities that have some into existence, and indeed all other disturbances within the Warp. The Warp spills into the material universe and daemons and gods swarm across the galaxy.

All the fears and nightmares brought about through millions of years of warfare have coalesced in the Warp and are now free within the Materium. Entire Necron systems are ravaged and cast down, and yet so are the civilisations of the younger races. The plague of daemons grows unabated. Some Warp Entities are benevolent and help the younger races, but most simply hinder, hunt or lord over them.

Circa. 60,067,000 B.C.

The galaxy is devastated. The entire Eldar race is dominated by their unbounded gods and the manifested nightmares of all the younger races. Khaelis Ra is finally hounded into hiding by the few surviving fleets of the Eldar, the K’nib, the Krork, the Jokaero and a few others whose names have been lost to history. Mephet’ran aids them (though they do not realise it), he doesn’t trust Khaelis Ra, who has become more obsessed with death and the infliction of misery than he is with the Great Work. Mephet’ran does not intend for Khaelis Ra to be destroyed, merely weakened. Only Mephet’ran remains active, fighting against gods and daemons, always trying to finish the Great Work or at least find the hidden Talismans of Vaul and destroy them. He seems to ‘save’ planets of mortals from the grip of Warp entities, only to consume them himself or be driven off by other Warp entities. Using all his guile and cunning, he convinces the puissant Harlequin Shadowseers to aid him in laying a trap for Khaine, who is by far the most dangerous and unpredictable of all the Warp entities abroad in the universe. Khaine is bound to his physical shell and so can exist upon the physical plane indefinitely and cannot be banished as other daemons and gods can be. Together Mephet’ran and the Shadowseers manage to trick the physical manifestation of Khaine to enter a warp gate, only for the Shadowseers to turn it into a temporary vortex, and then collapse it. Khaine is banished to the Warp and as his identity (though not all of his power) is trapped within the Necrodermis, he is cast adrift, much reduced in ability, within the Warp.

Circa. 60,057,000 B.C.

Mephet’ran has had some success in banishing the swarms of daemons back into the Warp. Over the millennia he has tried to exterminate all the younger races whose passions, imagination and connection to the Warp generate and free the daemons. The K’nib are wise to his scheme and the relatively few survivors of their race go into hiding. The savage Krork breed faster than he can kill them. The Jokaero he hounds to near extinction. Though he hounds the Eldar across the galaxy, pounding their worlds that have the most Warp activity upon them into the stone-age, killing or consuming untold billions of them, they still prove far too populace for him to exterminate without the aid of the other C’tan. So he instead poses as a series of daemons, gods and heroes, both old and new, guiding them to embrace discipline and a more rustic lifestyle. He encourages them to control their raging psyche. The damage caused by the War in Heaven, and the damage still being caused by the daemons and gods loosed in the Materium, means that this process in painfully slow.

Mephet’ran engineers a specific gene sequence and somehow manages to sow it into the biological makeup of many planetary eco-systems, including Terra. One day this sequence will become active and will be named the ‘Pariah’ gene.

Then the Enslaver plague begins. The near constant interaction of Materium and Immaterium for so many millennia has led to the birth of a strange life form that the Eldar name the Enslavers. Eldar Shadowseers come to believe that the Enslavers were created by the Old Ones as a kind of psychic antibody. Wishing to return to the time when only their mind patterns were imposed upon, and active within, the Warp, the Shadowseers believe that the Old Ones devised (or spontaneously generated) the Enslavers to latch onto the psykers of all other sentient species (who are responsible for the creation of the aggregates and vortices within the Warp) and exterminate them and their planets and populations. The idea being that when enough of them have been erased from existence, the Warp will be calm once again. An insane dream for a now insane and decadent species.

The K’nib believe that the Enslavers are in fact the remains of the Old Ones themselves, considerably devolved into mindless protozoa-like creatures, spreading across the Materium and Immaterium like bacteria.

Whatever the case may be, the Enslavers are creatures neither wholly of the Warp nor the Mortal universe, but a bit of both. The Enslavers latch on to those with psychic ability and use them to open portals into the Warp. Why they do this is uncertain, but the process kills the psyker in question and allows other Enslavers, raw Warp energy and malevolent entities renewed access to the mortal plane.

MvS
05-09-2005, 19:08
Circa. 60,000,000 B.C.

The galaxy is almost totally overrun by the Enslavers, daemons and (strangely enough) the Krork. All is in ruins. Mephet’ran finally gives up on the Great Work and goes into stasis, waiting for the plague of Enslavers and daemons to subside by itself. The galaxy continues to descend into a hell-like state. Such are the intolerable conditions and sheer magnitude of the Enslaver plague that the Eldar and the few remaining other races scattered across the galaxy have been driven into a primitive and desperate state and are continuing to regress further. Many other races have slipped into extinction. Only the Krork seem to thrive, somehow managing to breed and populate hundreds of planets despite the fact they appear to have a negligible technology base.

The many stories of the ‘Old Ones’ (the Slann), the C’tan and the Eldar gods become ever more confused with the passage of time, the few facts cloaked in mythology and legend. Brutalised and scattered, and still plagued by the Enslavers and hunted by daemons, the Eldar regress even further into an almost stone age culture, becoming rustic and very much like incredibly simplistic and backward Wood Elves. The fact that they are still the most psychically attuned race in the galaxy means only that more daemons and Enslavers are attracted to them than any other culture. They become fearful of using their psychic abilities. The Eldar dwindle in numbers, ravaged by the Enslavers, the Krork, and the daemons and gods that assail their bodies, minds and souls.

The horror unleashed by the Enslaver plague and the slow decay of the galaxy’s many races and civilisations that has taken place over the last 60 or so millennia, and the despair that has come with this decay and the apparent betrayal of the hope promised by technology and civilisation, has begun to form a new vortex within the Warp. This vortex gradually spreads within the Warp, drawing to itself all the vortices of the countless gods and daemons of sadness, despair, hopelessness, fear (of which there are many, thanks to the millennia of war and Khaelis Ra’s influence over so many mortal creatures), cynicism, bitterness, desperation, defeat, loss of innocence, and other related concepts and feelings. As with the other great Warp vortex-amalgams that will one day become Tzeentch and Khorne, Nurgle begins to grow in the Warp – though none of them are yet fully personified or conscious - the consciousness of Khaine, who of all the ancient gods is closest to his future and greatest aspect, Khorne, is still trapped within Khaelis-Ra’s old Necrodermis. However, the blind and as yet unconscious Warp-energy of anger, hate, bloodlust, the knowledge of warfare, the need to inflict violence, and the actual experience of violence, still existence within the Warp as a truly monumental vortex that has drawn all smaller vortices of related emotions and concepts into itself. This will one day awake as Khorne.

This explains how and why the Eldar war god Khaine managed to remain a largely separate identity from Khorne. For although Khaine’s Necrodermis trapped consciousness and will is drawn towards the warp vortex that will one day awaken Khorne, it cannot be consumed by it entirely due to Khaine’s corporeal entrapment.

Circa. 10,000,000 B.C.

The Enslaver plague has long ended and with less Warp activity within the Materium, the numbers of daemons have died away considerably. The Eldar have managed to survive as a species. Few remember the War in Heaven, and for those that do the memories are hazy and shrouded in millions of years of myth and legend. The Eldar have begun to reoccupy some of the impossibly ancient cities of their distant ancestors and rediscover their culture. They have researched their past and have once again reached the evolutionary stage of a more utopian and magical vision of ancient Greece. They are filled with a new purpose as a people. They have greater control over their psychic powers and learn how to manipulate the energy of Warp more carefully than before.

The very few (and extremely powerful) Eldar Seers who can still re-incarnate have begun to contact each other psychically across the impossible distances between the occupied planets of the scattered Eldar race (something they had long avoided for fear of attracting the gaze of daemons or Enslavers). They deem their race strong and disciplined enough once more to reveal much of the lost wisdom and knowledge from the time of the War in Heaven.

As the centuries pass, the Eldar rediscover the art of making Warpgates and have begun to contact their gods directly once more – although this time in only the most limited of ways. They do not summon any Warp entity onto the mortal plane. They begin to colonise and reconquer hundreds of star systems, this time utilising science and technology in tandem with their Warp powers – just as Vaul had started to teach them millions of years before. Their growth is very slow and steady compared to how it was at the genesis of their race, but it is consciously so. There is no War in Heaven impelling them to act in haste or face extinction. They spend as much time refining their religions, philosophies, aesthetics and souls, as they do perfecting and expanding their technologies, factual knowledge and mental discipline. In time they come to exceed the greatness of their distant ancestors

MvS
05-09-2005, 19:08
Circa. 5,000,000 B.C.

The Eldar are once again the dominant species in the galaxy, their position contested here and there only by the still incredibly populace Krork. They have opened relations with many of the new intelligent races that have emerged, and have re-established contact with some of the older ones. They have better control over their thoughts and psyche and have banished all remaining daemons back into the Warp, and have assured that their gods remain in the Warp also. They assure that no race disturbs the sleeping C’tan, and they nurture life on many worlds. The ancestors of humanity have emerged on Terra. The Eldar leave Terra and many other planets as unspoiled gardens, perhaps curious to see what will be the results of the Old Ones’ last experiments.

Circa. 10,000 – 6,000 B.C.

On the planet that will one day be known as Terra, humanity has emerged as the dominant and intelligent species and has begun farming. Humans have considerable, though largely latent and very uncontrolled, psychic abilities. Over the following millennia, this young and passionate race begin to spread across Terra, with their emotions and thoughts raging uncontrolled. Over time the various warp vortices that are not bound solely to the minds and fates of alien races begin to be drawn to humanity.

Humanity is deeply affected by this attention, and indeed the warp vortices are whipped up with fresher and more vibrant momentum. It appears that humanity has a greater potential with regards to psychic ability than even the Eldar, but this potential is locked behind almost insurmountable hurdles deep within them, perhaps by design of the Old Ones themselves. Although these psychic powers manifest themselves only within a relative few of the humans, and then only weakly, their wild and completely subconscious affect upon the Warp is colossal. In a relatively short space of time humanity causes the awakening to consciousness of the vortices that are now known Khorne and Tzeentch. The Warp reels as these two gods are born, one shortly after the other. Khorne and Tzeentch go about absorbing ever more of the lesser existing Warp vortices that are in any way related to their core selves – anger (and the desire to survive) and the desire to change (or at least add to oneself and/or one’s world).

Around this time the being who will become known as the Emperor is also born of the combined souls and intellects of all humanity’s psykers who know of their own power – all shaman, seers, healers, witch doctors, and all ‘holy’ men and women – ho choose to kill themselves and be reborn as one being so as to avoid the predations of the predatory warp gods and also to guide humanity to its destiny as a fully psychic race.

Circa. 1,200 – 1,400 A.D.

Many civilisation have risen and fallen on Terra. Humanity is no longer an innocent race. Corruption and misery is rife. Desperation and despair is endemic. In the Medieval period that Terra is now in, plagues and famine ravage much of the world. The Black Death spreads everywhere from Europe, the Middle East, parts of India and to the hinterlands of China. Millions die. The horror and despair of the latently psychic humanity screams throughout the Warp.

All of this has an effect in the Warp. The immensely powerful subconscious of humanity provides the gel and final tipping momentum within the Warp that allows for the awakening of Nurgle last as the supreme Warp entity embodying, personifying and presiding over despair, fear, both the disgust and acceptance of disease and decay as an implicit part of life, and bitterness. For a while he is more powerful than both Khorne and Tzeentch, who are themselves infinitely more powerful than all other Warp entities. Such is his power at his birth that Nurgle pulls to himself and consumes all other Warp vortices of despair, fear, bitterness, horror, misery, apathy, disgust, sloth and cynicism, and all other Warp entities spawned by other species that personify or are related to concepts of disease or decay.

Nurgle has been waiting as a truly massive potential within the Warp for millions of years, and his awakening into full consciousness, just as with Khorne and Tzeentch, has been held in check only by the efforts of the trillions of Eldar in the galaxy. As a species they try to emulate in their own way what the Old Ones attempted to do, imposing order upon the Warp. Although the Eldar were unable to disperse the largest vortices and aggregates of concept and emotion within the Warp, they were able to deny these vortices and aggregates full sentience and self-realisation. The massive power within the Warp of humanity’s raging emotions created chinks in the Eldar’s psychic chains upon these vortices, and in time the vortices were able to reach out and latch onto the minds of humanity, feeding of the psychic momentum created by the humans, and encouraging humanity to subconsciously sculpt these small strands of the major Warp vortices to personify self-aware gods and daemons, whose existence would in themselves add to the self awareness and growing sense of cohesive identity of the greater vortices.

Nurgle’s birth has an effect upon the Eldar, who begin upon their imperceptible and painfully slow journey to civilisational decay.

Circa. 29,000 A.D.

Humanity has long arisen as a powerful intelligent species, and has long reached into space. Humanity has spiralled through good and bad fortunes, suffering at the hands of their creations as Machine Intelligences wage war upon them from within. The Cult Mechanicus that holds the Machine and Intelligence as the Ultimate Sanctity and demonstration of divinity has been formed. Some believe that this cult has been formed through the influence of ancient aliens, perhaps connected to secrets buried beneath the Cult homeworld of Mars. Nothing can be proven and all notions of central governance of humanity collapses.

Ab-humans have evolved from humanity on those planets that have very different atmospheres from Terra. The Eldar have largely ignored humanity, as they have not colonised many worlds yet within the reach of humanity’s slow progress across the stars. Yet still, humanity strives for perfection.

MvS
05-09-2005, 19:09
Circa. 30,000 A.D.

Though in every sense at the very pinnacle of their civilisation and cultural achievement, the Eldar have fallen into terrible decadence and arrogance. Indeed, such is their arrogance that they begin to experiment more with the dangerous aspects of the Warp. Many turn from these more unwholesome sorceries, knowing that they could not truly control the forces their indulgent brethren invigorate within the Warp.

Since the dawn of consciousness in the universe, vortices had formed in the Warp that encapsulated such mortal notions and feelings as pleasure, gratification, delight, ecstasy, rapture, exaltation, joy, the desire to experience pleasure and satisfaction, sensation, the desire or need to ‘feel’, the pursuit of pleasure, happiness, contentment and perfection, selfishness, vanity and pride. The drives and excesses of the now billions-strong and emotionally turbulent humans has only added to this. Yet it is the incredible achievements and impossibly heightened intellect and emotiveness of the untold trillions of Eldar throughout the galaxy that begins to draw these disparate vortices together within one great Vortex.

Slaanesh grows almost entirely from the realised and unrealised excesses of the Eldar. While alive, many of the Eldar strive to suppress and control their raging feelings, but when they die their souls melted back into the Warp, and all their long-guarded temptations and secret delights are released, drawn together and then absorbed by the nascent reality that was Slaanesh.

Some of the more enlightened Eldar strive to prevent Slaanesh from reaching full consciousness. But even by recognising the possibility of the birth of embryonic Warp entity, the Eldar give it an identity. Without fully realising what is happening, the Eldar begin to be manipulated by the psychic-potential, the Warp Vortex, they themselves have fuelled, conceived and perceived. The vast majority of the Eldar pause in their quest for self-improvement and the civilisational enlightenment and choose a darker path of inward-looking excess, debauchery and self-satisfaction. So highly charged are the Eldar’s psychic minds that daemons and other warp entities manage to break free from the Warp once more and spread across the Eldar’s vast empire.

Many of the Eldar renounce the ways of their brothers and sisters, and retreat into vast exploratory spaceships, warships, moon-sized space-stations and smaller trading vessels of all kinds, abandoning whole worlds and star-systems to their corrupted brethren. The Warpgates that led to corrupted worlds are sealed shut, and these who are the ancestors of the Craftworld Eldar drift away into space. The Eldar they left behind sink ever deeper into their dark practices. A racial madness had taken them over, an insanity that had only one end.

Slaanesh finally realised itself into a full entity, springing into the Warp from the psyche of the Eldar. In their untold billions the Eldar’s souls were swallowed by Slaanesh, their bodies simply evaporating from the material universe as raw Chaos broils out from their minds. Where the populations of the Eldar had been most dense, the Warp literally spills from their minds creating an apocalyptic mix of real and unreal. A massive hole is torn in Reality and the Eye of Terror was created.

Within the Warp, Khorne struggled against Slaanesh’s birth. While the metaphysical aspect of war and anger (being Khorne) struggled to suppress the emotions and concepts that fed Slaanesh, the corporeal, limited and less insane facet of Khorne that was Khaine struggled physically against it. But Slaanesh could not be stopped. When he is born, the Necrodermis that has bound Khaine for so many millions of years finally shatters, releasing Khaine’s warp essence once more. It is drawn into the larger vortex of Khorne and becomes a true part of Khorne, but yet still manages to maintain his own identity and will as Khaine, so long has it been independent from Khorne.

MvS
05-09-2005, 19:10
NOTES

Asuryan:
I'm making the cardinal sin in the timeline by talking from a godlike narrator position. I didn't feel that I needed to put that the Eldar had an entire creation myth involving their gods, or that Asuryan was their emperor god whom they believe divided light from darkness, Materium from Immaterium, and up from down. I was talking from the perspective of the Slann who perceived the Eldar gods for the warp constructs, or simple attempts to describe things that the Eldar feel but do not yet understand.

Myth Cycles:
Although I have borrowed certain references from the Eldar Myth Cycles, I'm not concerned about keeping to them. They are myths after all. Millions of years have passed since the coming of the C'tan, the War in Heaven and the evolution of the first sentient Warp Gods - think on that, millions of years. In our own civilisation we don't even have a clear picture about such legendary figures as King Arthur, and that was supposedly only 1,500 years ago. We got some good theories about who Arthur might have been (if he was anyone at all), but we still don't know precisely where the legend comes from (please, lets not get into a discussion about Arthur. Just take it as an example along with such things as the life of Jesus or Sidhartha). People believe items of religion and mythology, especially where they cross over with certain known facts of history. The Eldar have had millions of years to forget and mythologize events. They've also had endless wars, psychic plagues and daemon infestations.

So where Myth Cycles might state, ‘Vaul did this, for this reason, at this time to these people’, I would say that this is a religious belief and a rationalisation that has grown up across millions of years, and is not necessarily a point of fact. Perhaps not even close.

Myth and reality:
Another point worth mentioning is that it is possible that the 'lesser' gods of the Warp (like the identities of the majority of the Eldar gods), might actually believe for themselves what their worshippers believe of them. So Isha might truly remember creating the Eldar, even though she was in fact created by them...

Gods in war:
It is clear from the Necron and Eldar codices that the Eldar gods were physically involved in the war against the C'tan. Specifically Khaine, Vaul (who I believe were periphery aspects of the burgeoning greater warp-realities of Khorne and Tzeentch). At the start of the War when the Eldar and their gods became involved, perhaps the physical aspects of the Eldar gods, or even their warp aspect as well, were not much more powerful than Greater Daemons by 'modern' standards. The Slann would have had some interest in controlling and restricting them, if only to see if they could (although I believe it was more than that).

Non-Eldar Gods:
I see no reason why other gods couldn’t be pottering around the Materium at the same time as the Eldar gods. Firstly, a god could be any entity (in this case, Warp entity) who is incredibly powerful and has some cultural/mythical relevance to the race that perceives it. So the gods of other races might have been little more than relatively minor daemons, or they might have been as powerful as the Eldar gods. Also, note that the ancient Romans took their mythology and religion largely from the Greeks, although they changed gods’ names and gave them extra aspects. The same can be said for the Egyptians – they had a massive pantheon of gods (great and small) that grew up across the millennia through contact and absorption of other cultures. Why should it not be the same in the 40K universe where gods actually walk amongst mortals, showing their glory and their power?

Could the K’nib not have adopted some of the Eldar gods by different names, or perhaps even vice-versa? We’re talking about countless millennia of desperate warfare involving manifested gods and daemons (not to mention aliens with godlike powers – not that this distinction would have been that obvious to ordinary mortals), as well as cultural intermingling. So yes, I think many minor and major gods fought in the wars, although whether they were just easily defeated daemons or the same god by different names or in slightly different aspects (like Apollo was a Sun god, a war god, and sometimes a god of dreams…).

MvS
05-09-2005, 19:10
The Abilities of the Gods:
Why would Vaul wish to learn the secrets of Necron technology?

‘God’ he may have been, but what does that mean? It means that he is a powerful warp entity. That’s all. He personified the mortal activities and practices of smithing, ingenuity and artisanship. When he was ‘young’ during the days of the War I believe that Vaul’s knowledge was bound to the arcane and the (very) mundane, i.e.: magic and smithing.

I believe that he knew everything that the Eldar knew and had ever known about technology, and perhaps had absorbed some lesser daemons and deities of other races that personified the same things, but the Necrons supposedly had physical technologies that outstripped everyone else, even the Slann (although they lacked the Slann’s incredible understanding and virtuoso ability to manipulate Warp energies).

After being consumed by the C’tan, the Necrons no longer released thoughts or emotions into the Warp, and neither did the C’tan. Vaul (who I see at that time as a very powerful Greater Daemon or daemon Prince, not an omnipotent and omniscient uber-god) saw that the Eldar needed more than magic to eradicate the C’tan. The Slann would not have been too forthcoming about their own technologies to what they saw as a Warp construct that was starting to think a tad too independently and so why should Vaul not have sought to steal the Necron technology that was the wonder and horror of the galaxy?

We know that the gods needed tools in the Materium to be able to fight their wars, because if they didn’t, if they could just ‘be gods’ and snuff out the enemy because they are ‘gods’ and therefore all powerful, then they would have done. But they didn’t. They couldn’t just ‘do anything’. They needed to use materials for weaponry (not just Divine Smiting). They needed to use Slann Warpgate technology to step from world to world (in the absence of spacecraft), and so I say that they truly were limited and truly needed to learn about and possess physical materials and technologies. A bit like a Greater Daemon in contemporary 40K, it cannot simply manifest itself in the Materium (unless the environment it is drenched in Warp energy), it needs the ‘tool’ of a mortal body to possess. Without the biological ‘technology’ of a mortal’s body the daemon could not manifest itself. I think this ties back to Vaul and Necron technology.

The Pyramid in the Blackstone Fortresses:
I didn’t base the entire notion of inter-species technological influence upon the Necron-style pyramid. I just thought it tied in quite nicely because the Fortresses, or Talismans, date back to the time of the War in Heaven. I also thought the Wraithguard, being in a sense magical and spiritual versions of what the Necrons are, was a nice connection as well. In a war, one side uses propeller planes and the other creates jets, so the first side steals the idea of jets, but makes them to their own specifications, and so on…

The Supposed Crippling of ‘Vaul’:
How can a Warp Entity be crippled? His body can be damaged or destroyed in the Materium, but why can’t he just bathe in the Warp and come back as whole as ever. A C’tan though, being a product only of the Materium, might be a different matter – hence the connection I made with the Dragon.

Eldar Reincarnation:
Yes, I know it says they can do it, and I say the same during the early centuries of the War and millions of years later after the War when I suggest the Eldar were forced to regress. When the Materium started to become overrun with daemons, then Enslavers, I think the Warp mirrored this chaos, and the Eldar became less and less able to reincarnate, just as the Old Ones started to lose it. Eldar souls and minds were hunted by millions of hungry gods, daemons and Enslavers, and so only the very strongest of them managed to survive life after life. Or so I say.

Avatars of Khaine:
I suggest they are made from the fragments of Khaine’s shattered mortal shell – the Necrodermis shell that imprisoned him for so many millennia. The Avatars contain fragments or strong echoes of Khaine’s identity and drives, and need only absorb the soul of a willing Exarch sacrifice to fire up, tap into the Warp, and become a greater daemon of Khaine – essentially like a Greater Daemon of Khorne, but more limited and focussed by Eldar expectations and the identity traces of Khaine imprinted into the Necrodermis heart/shell of the Avatar’s physical form.

The C’tan Controlling So Much Space:
I see them as being able to control so much space for 2 reasons: 1) they control countless other races who have been enslaved by the Necrons, or else have been reared from birth, and perhaps even genetically encoded, to worship the C’tan as gods, and so obeying every whim, and 2) I see the C’tan as being able to leave the Necrodermi and shoot across the galaxy at whim to posses other Necrodermi is various ‘temples’ and crypts on other planets. This added to the folding-space technology, and you’ve got C’tan who rule a large part of the galaxy.

Granted the slave races may not see their C’tan god’s for generations at a time, perhaps only seeing the odd Necron regiment and overseer, but they still are counted as part of the C’tan empire, and are under C’tan control. The Christian world never once saw Jesus throughout the Dark Ages, the Middle Ages through to the Enlightenment, but still it remained very staunchly Christian.

If Jesus had miraculously appeared and proved who he was with miralces, then everyone would have jumped into line without much hesitation. Hence a C’tan could be worshipped for millennia by a race without having to appear on their world, and when he does he would be very free with demonstrations of his immense power to enforce his will.

MvS
05-09-2005, 19:11
The Old Eldar Empire:
The Eldar didn’t have to be all over the galaxy to have an influence over the vast area that they did. They use Warp gates to step across impossibly vast tracts of space, joining with and freeing other races (like the K’nib). They fought in tandem with many other races that are not mentioned in the histories or are forgotten to time, simply because the Eldar came out on top (in the extreme long run), and so remember the War in Heaven in a rather ethnocentric way. ‘We did all the big stuff!


Necron Nano-tech:
Nano-tech is a simplistic term here. I see their nano-tech as far ahead of our vision of what nano-tech might be a few hundred years from now, as the nano-tech of a few hundred years from now is to us in the current era.

I see it as molecular and atomic nano-tech, the more sophisticated stuff being just for the C’tan. Perhaps the ‘nanites’ that make up the C’tan Necrodermi are not little machines so much as particles that are tightly controlled by incredibly specific magnetic fields. Perhaps it really is in a sense a ‘living’ metal, which, like a human body, can not only contain the immense energies of the Star-Vampire C’tan, but also the energy and identity of a daemon prince, but being much stronger it will not warp and break down over time.

Suffice to say, I see the Necrodermi as so far in advance our own ideas and expectations now as to be almost miraculous. So I think it is feasible to say that Khaine was trapped by it within the Materium, but that is not to say that the entire Vortex of anger, war and so on that Khaine was part of was trapped within the Materium. Perhaps only the conscious part. The unconscious part (that made up the vast majority of that vortex), remained as a pre-sensate presence within the Warp.

Human-Centrism and the Chaos Gods:
Humans caused Tzeentch, Khorne and Nurgle to awaken. I don’t like it, but it’s one of GWs basic principles. To rationalise, I see it as representative of the influence the Eldar have had over other races and themselves. They either know how to avoid allowing the dangerous Warp vortices sentience, or they do not affect the Warp in that way (as is the case with the Orks).

Nurgle was already there as a massive vortex of despair, fear, cynicism and so on. He just did not achieve sentience until humanity came along. They were the final straw that broke the camel’s back (as it were). The pre-sensate Nurgle had been growing throughout the suffering of the War in Heaven (I reference this in the timeline), and had no-doubt absorbed many miserable souls fragments throughout this time. Also, the Eldar’s slow degradation added to the growth of the god of decay.

I see all the gods as having been absorbed by the Greater Power that is closest to their own nature. Imagine one body where the hands, eyes, feet, organs and so on all have their own consciousness and will. However, they are all part of the same ‘whole’, they all rely on that whole body’s blood circulation, and are all controlled to some degree (great or small) by the brain of that body. That how I see Khorne and Khaine (amongst others). If Khaine’s servants and daemons sometimes fight against the daemons of Khorne, then Khorne can certainly fight back, and is certainly more powerful than Khaine (on the whole), but he can’t simply destroy Khaine without destroying a part or aspect of himself – without cutting off his own hand. The hand would wither and die, and Khorne would not possess those aspects of warfare and controlled rage that Khaine now personifies.

Or perhaps if Khorne did do this, Khaine would simply grow back because of the beliefs of mortals and the existence of warriors who believe in controlled violence, or whatever…

Slaanesh and the Eldar Gods:
I think Slaanesh dominates the Eldar psyche. He/she has consumed the other Eldar gods as much as he has consumed the parts of the Eldar psyche that allows them to manifest their own deities within the Warp - essentially preventing the various other gods from being able to separate from the Greater Power they exist within, and robbing them of individual consciousness or will.

Khaine is different because his shattered 'shell' still exists within the Materium in the form of the many avatars. Therefore, to me, elements of his individual will and consciousness still exist outside of the greater reality that is Khorne.

The Krork:
I seem to remember the reference to who they were 'made' to combat specifically as being somewhat ambiguous.

The way I saw it, the Enslaver plague was just that: a plague. Although they were animals (of a sort) and were like large octopi/amoeba type things that latched onto being with psychic potential, they weren't something that could be warred against exactly. They drifted in and out of the Warp, making Warpgates out of mortals, so I don't you could set up lines of battle against them.

The C'tan, the Necrons and their slave races on the other hand were a clear and present danger to the Old Ones and their all their creations, so I could see the Krork as the perfect self-propagating, fearless, 'won't stop bashing til its dead' species for the Slann to use as faceless tides of powerful footsoldiers.

It might be at the time of the Krork's rise to sentience and combat capability that the Slann had more direct control over them (as the so-called 'brain-boys' perhaps?), using them like biological weapons and little else. They might have been built with a pre-disposition to attack only those the Slann told them to, or else the Slann might have controlled them with specific chemicals or whatnot - either way, once the Slann passed into myth, the Krork would still have been running around the place fighting things, but without the control and direction of the Slann.

MvS
05-09-2005, 19:11
Done.

Feel free to question, criticise, suggest and comment.

:)

TheSonOfAbbadon
05-09-2005, 19:19
You have way too much time on your hands.

I think I read some of that before on another site, and I'm even more amazed now.

MvS
05-09-2005, 19:21
Too much time? Me?? Ha! :D

No, I've just been tinkering with this lot since the beginning of 2001.

Excuse any typos or repetitions etc. I get completely snowblind reading through it all now.

:)

halo
05-09-2005, 19:24
good god man, when did u find the time?
I shall print this off to mull over more fully.
I admire your dedication to the hobby, in trying to create my own chapter, i've spent months just trying to find the best hook for myself. But the ammount of actual groundwork you have done is awesome.
Even if it may contain errors, i for one think you have done an excellent job,
congrats.

Philip S
05-09-2005, 19:34
Hi MvS,

This may sound a bit far-out, but could the C’Tan be related warp entities?

I’m thinking that as the gravity of stars affects the warp, that small amounts of the warp are pulled into the materium via the stars. A form of ‘processed warp’ which collects in the centre of stars, which powered by the stars energy and contained by it’s gravity and eventually becomes sentient and able to maintain a form (in a similar way a daemon can hold a form in the materium) that is stable. Once powerful enough it can break free of the star-egg’s gravity and roam at will.

I notice that many of the C’Tan seem to have similar emotions to the chaos gods?

Philip

Spooky
05-09-2005, 19:34
that was an excellent interpretation of the Pre-History of the 40k Universe. I said reasonably mesermized for a nearly twenty minutes as I read through your material. While I do need some time to ponder it in its entirety I must applaud you on this diligent work.

I look forward to the debate, after everyone returns from their Labor Day weekends, that this should inspire.

Inquisitor Engel
05-09-2005, 19:53
I look forward to the debate, after everyone returns from their Labor Day weekends, that this should inspire.

MvS has the advantage of writing such heinously long posts and theories that most of us have so many things to comment on that we can't possibly know where to start. ;)

I wonder if it would work better if he posted a thread for each "era" in 40k Prehistory... ;) Even if it just made us more comfortable with finding an effective way to reply!

Kage2020
05-09-2005, 20:06
IIRC the timeline was a bit... dodgy? Something to do with trying to conform to the 60 My figure that GW bandied around?

Kage

Philip S
05-09-2005, 20:24
Circa. 80,000,000 B.C.

<snip>Although they have individual minds and are complete and intelligent beings as individuals, their minds exist simultaneously and fully consciously within the Warp as a kind of group mind. As such they do not empathise or emote with each other, because they do not need to. They already fully understand each other and share identical goals. They do not posses individual ambitions.
Does this mean the Nids could be related to the Old Ones? Perhaps the ‘crystalline biological constructs’ (always like those [;)]) are part of the Nids too, forming a core of Nid technology mutated with time and gathering up DNA to create a more powerful Nid (had a thought of ‘Forbidden Planet’, and the id, perhaps a sleeping Old One in stasis lies at the heart of the Nid hive mind, it’s nightmares made real buy the crystalmorphs, err crystalline biological constructs?).

Could Orks and Gork and Mork also run along these lines of the Slann connected mind? Could the spores be a modification of this crystal technology?

Philip

susu.exp
05-09-2005, 20:46
Age of Universe: 13.7 +/- 0.2 Ga (Spergel, D. N., Verde, L., Peiris, H. V., et al. 2003, ApJS, 148, 175S)

"Circa. 10,000,000,000 B.C.

Planets form. Pre-sensate biological life begins to emerge. The ebb and flow of this basic biological life begins to affect the Warp in an entirely vague-yet-symbiotic ‘tidal’ fashion. There is no sentience so no thoughts coalesce within the Warp.

As primitive creatures and animals begin to evolve, their experiences, emotive responses and basic perceptions feed the Warp. The first coalescences or 'Islands in the Warp' begin to form, but these are entirely 'lifeless' things – psychic aggregates that could be regarded as metaphysical elements or compounds, like rocks, water, or gas."

4 Ga seems short for the formation of heavy element rich planets. Especially since some elements necessary for any kind of life we could imagine so far are bred relatively slowly. I´d cut that 10Ga figure in half for an estimate. Consider that by current knowledge earth, with an age of about 4.5 Ga is amongst the first wave of planets that may harbour life.

"Circa. 65,000,000 B.C.

...

Circa. 60,100,000 B.C."

Any reason this age of harvest and destruction spans the K-T?

Apart from these: Great work.

Ursca
05-09-2005, 20:59
I think my brain has just melted and has started dribbling through the little hole in your skull where the spine goes in...

Congratulations MvS, you are now at least sentient as far as Warp entities go in my books. First the Liber Chaotica's, now this.

I'm not too concerned about the dating and such, but then I know next to nothing about it. On thing I found especially interesting though was the state of the Immaterium at certain times in history. The calmness at first, then turmoil... Very interesting.

Anyway. I think I need a lie-down.

Kensai X
05-09-2005, 21:09
...Wow that actually made so much more sense than anything GW has released.... I was kinda of sad that it stopped at 30,000 (I was always interested in hearing your ideas about the ages of humanity, the horus heresay, and the possible futue...)

MvS
05-09-2005, 22:29
IIRC the timeline was a bit... dodgy? Something to do with trying to conform to the 60 My figure that GW bandied around?
We can only work with the materials we're given I guess...

:)

Brimstone
05-09-2005, 22:43
Great thread as always and a decent bit of meat for the background forum.

I'm a little disapointed that the whole AI/Men of Steel/Stone was passed over but with the timescales incompased it's not totally suprising.

I've merged the other thread on the same subject and deleted the spam.

hairyman
05-09-2005, 22:50
MvS - great read, cheers :)

MvS
06-09-2005, 00:49
I'm a little disapointed that the whole AI/Men of Steel/Stone was passed over but with the timescales incompased it's not totally suprising.
I'd considered including it, but to be honest I don't know enough about it. Information is sparce and I haven't remained up to date with Portent & Warseer discussions on the subject. But I'm willing to amend it, if anyone wants to help (perhaps in a different thread).

:)

MvS
06-09-2005, 00:54
Age of Universe: 13.7 +/- 0.2 Ga (Spergel, D. N., Verde, L., Peiris, H. V., et al. 2003, ApJS, 148, 175S)
4 Ga seems short for the formation of heavy element rich planets. Especially since some elements necessary for any kind of life we could imagine so far are bred relatively slowly. I´d cut that 10Ga figure in half for an estimate. Consider that by current knowledge earth, with an age of about 4.5 Ga is amongst the first wave of planets that may harbour life.
Thanks. But I'm so overtired now. If you could bandy some dates in the style given in the timeline, just for tired ignorami like me, I'll tweak the timeline. :)


Any reason this age of harvest and destruction spans the K-T?
K-T? Am I being really slow now or is what your saying obvious?

I eally shouldn't try to answer threads when I've been up for 18 odd hours... :(

MvS
06-09-2005, 00:58
Does this mean the Nids could be related to the Old Ones?
Could be, but it's not something I would state outright.

The Tyranids seem to have elements in common with this description of the Slann/Old Ones (bearing in mind I've taken many liberties with their imagery), but they are also supposed to have come from beyond the galactic rim, probably from another galaxy altogether...


Could Orks and Gork and Mork also run along these lines of the Slann connected mind? Could the spores be a modification of this crystal technology?
I don't see why the Old Ones wouldn't use patterns they feel they understand best and/or are perceived as being a Good Idea as a template for their creations. So possibly...

:)

MvS
06-09-2005, 01:04
could the C’Tan be related warp entities?
Hmm... I would shie away from the idea myself, but lets look at the reasons you give.


I’m thinking that as the gravity of stars affects the warp
It does?

I always pictured the Warp as being devoid of mass and energy in the sense that can be understood in the mortal universe, or Real Space. Abstracts, thought, emotion affect the warp - but gravity? Why? And how does this very physical pressure tie in with the immaterial and metaphysical nature of the Warp?


I notice that many of the C’Tan seem to have similar emotions to the chaos gods?
Indeed so.

The identities of the C'tan were well known, loved, respected, feared and hated (respectively) long before the identities of the major Warp Gods were made manifest. I think the perceptions of and feeling about the C'tan (who were perceived as gods) would have had some kind of effect on the development of the Warp Gods.

:)

MvS
06-09-2005, 01:09
MvS has the advantage of writing such heinously long posts and theories that most of us have so many things to comment on that we can't possibly know where to start.
It's a form of thought-to-fingers typing diarrhoea. Very nasty.


I wonder if it would work better if he posted a thread for each "era" in 40k Prehistory
That might be a good idea. :)

Philip S
06-09-2005, 01:49
Hmm... I would shie away from the idea myself, but lets look at the reasons you give.
I thought you might ;)


It does?
I believe so, this is why ships have to drop out of the warp far from the star. Could be wrong mind, but I'm sure someone can correct this.


I always pictured the Warp as being devoid of mass and energy in the sense that can be understood in the mortal universe, or Real Space. Abstracts, thought, emotion affect the warp - but gravity? Why? And how does this very physical pressure tie in with the immaterial and metaphysical nature of the Warp?
I would describe the gravity effect more as a leak (unofficial) and link it to my border-space ideas. Why gravity? I suppose because it is the ultimate force, the one that will (maybe) re-condense the universe of the materium (and the warp) back to a single point of creation.

Gravity may be a natural weak point between both realms, but it's a little hard to get to and make gates out of it because of it's location. The biggest distortion would be black holes as they have the most gravity, and as a crazy thought perhaps the C'Tan growing inside these will be truly monstrous as it would have tons of warp energy but would need it just to break free of it's gravity prison (if at all). Apparently there's a black hole at the centre of the Milky Way, perhaps containing the 'great devourer' or some such that even the C'Tan fear.

Maybe in the warp, the great concentration of matter (that makes gravity) is like a stabilising effect on the warp, and this stabilization allows gravity to then have an effect. In essence it not the gravity that is doing it, just the vastness of the concentrated materium pulling on the warp (is this making any sense?), so in free space which in most of the universe, the warp is less restrained, and may flow very quickly once outside the galaxy (maybe that's how the Nids made the jump – as an essence dragged by super fast warp current, so in the warp the galaxies feel a lot closer).

Towards the centre our universe the warp may become reasonably stable as gravity increases, but while the black hole at the centre may make the warp stable, anything near it gets sucked into the materium and is then trapped in the black hole; materium side.


Indeed so.

The identities of the C'tan were well known, loved, respected, feared and hated (respectively) long before the identities of the major Warp Gods were made manifest. I think the perceptions of and feeling about the C'tan (who were perceived as gods) would have had some kind of effect on the development of the Warp Gods.

:)
To push the boat out; What if they C'Tan growing in stars where affected by the growing species the Old Ones had seeded on many worlds, the primal need to feed (and mate, hence consumption of other C'Tan), but once they consumed these species they picked up finer emotions, the more they consume the more emotions they developed, and the greater the intelligence of the consumed the greater the emotions and the bigger the 'prize'? This would make the emotional Eldar very delicious, as would other C'Tan.

?

Philip

susu.exp
06-09-2005, 15:04
Thanks. But I'm so overtired now. If you could bandy some dates in the style given in the timeline, just for tired ignorami like me, I'll tweak the timeline. :)

Age of Universe: 13.700.000.000 B.C
Age of earth: 4.500.000.000 B.C
Planets capable of harbouring life: ~5.000.000.000 B.C


K-T? Am I being really slow now or is what your saying obvious?

I don´t know, the K-T is the Creatanous-Tertiary boundary, the last of the 5 big mass extinctions in the history of life (mostly noted for the death of the dinosaurs, but to people in the field they aren´t the big deal. It´s dated at ~64.800.000 years B.C.

Inquisitor Engel
06-09-2005, 16:28
I always pictured the Warp as being devoid of mass and energy in the sense that can be understood in the mortal universe, or Real Space.

Yeah, most other sources of fiction show the warp as a flat sea with storms on it. In black and white...

To me, the reason ships must drop out of warp relatively far away from a celestial body is due to the huge gravitational stress placed on the ship going from a place where the laws of physics so not apply (gellar field or not, the ships are going to be effected by the lack of any form of physical force) to a place where they do exist in high amounts.

Dropping out, further out, it a chance for the integrity of the ship to adjust back to real space.


The identities of the C'tan were well known, loved, respected, feared and hated (respectively) long before the identities of the major Warp Gods were made manifest. I think the perceptions of and feeling about the C'tan (who were perceived as gods) would have had some kind of effect on the development of the Warp Gods.

Given that the Talismans of Vaul were warp canons, and nearly killed the Dragon (and may have claimed others before, we don't know) I'd say it's fairly obvious that the C'tan are not exactly cozy in or around the warp...

It's also a rather concrete GW fact that they are the complete antithesis to Chaos. Whilst Chaos is what its believers make it, the C'tan make their believers what they want, and so on and so forth!

Kage2020
06-09-2005, 18:14
I believe so, this is why ships have to drop out of the warp far from the star. Could be wrong mind, but I'm sure someone can correct this.
The original 'fluff' makes some reference to the 'density' of the system, whatever that might mean. (Hazy memory since the GW blood sharks took down CH and I don't feel that it is justifiable to lump the physical sources around the world with me.) Subsequent 'fluff' - was it Execution Hour? - seems to make a link between gravity and the warp.

For me? Yes, energy/mass has an effect in the warp. Personal preference: As above, so below... etc. It also tends to make a bit of sense when you hold it up to the various bits of 'fluff'.


Gravity may be a natural weak point between both realms...
The only problem with gravity as a 'weak point' is that there should be many, many more 'weak points'. The ones around Terra or any two body system, i.e. LaGrange points... Well, depending on how particularly you're hand-waving in the fact that they are 'weak points' between spacetime and a fictional 'warp'. ;)


The biggest distortion would be black holes as they have the most gravity, and as a crazy thought perhaps the C'Tan growing inside these will be truly monstrous...
Black holes are old C'tan? Always thought that black holes lay at the end of the stellar evolution chain and are not to be considered just 'another star'. Ah well.


Maybe in the warp, the great concentration of matter...
Or energy.


I think the perceptions of and feeling about the C'tan (who were perceived as gods) would have had some kind of effect on the development of the Warp Gods.
Bugger. We agree on something. ;)

Oh, that was MvS. Ah, that'll be why! :P


What if they C'Tan growing in stars where affected by the growing species the Old Ones had seeded on many worlds...
And the mechanics of this? The whole 'eating emotions' thing is a tad on the tenuous side anyway, all things considered. (Inimicability of the warp, etc.)


Yeah, most other sources of fiction show the warp as a flat sea with storms on it. In black and white...
LOL. Not really surprising when one considers the Image and the inspiration for much that involves the warp! ;) Of course, this can be taken to mean that there really is no real artists impression of the warp around a star system. (Note: You do have Watson's description, but that is not particuarly helpful at this time.)


To me, the reason ships must drop out of warp relatively far away from a celestial body is due to the huge gravitational stress placed on the ship...
That's reasonable.


...going from a place where the laws of physics so not apply (gellar field or not, the ships are going to be effected by the lack of any form of physical force) to a place where they do exist in high amounts.
Well, the Geller Field descriptions are a bit dodgy... ;) Essentially people picking themselves up by their own feet!

Kage

Philip S
06-09-2005, 19:49
Black holes are old C'tan? Always thought that black holes lay at the end of the stellar evolution chain and are not to be considered just 'another star'. Ah well.
No old, just didn’t emerge, the star collected warp energy but back before the Old Ones seeded the stars the collected warp energy was ‘blank’, the star collapses in due coarse and continues to collect energy, only now the universe is seeded by the Old Ones so a C’Tan wakes up inside a Black Hole. The gravity is more concentrated so the prison or egg is much stronger and more energy needs to collect before it can emerge. However no the warp is now teaming with life and this will have an effect, so the emergent C’Tan, if it was to ever emerge, would be fully formed and exceptionally large.

Another area that may be a sign of the materium affecting the Immaterium would be Psykers, and the emotions of the seeded lifeforms.

Philip

PS: Another idea is that the C’Tan could the the physical manifestations of the chaos gods in the materium, where the chaos gods are like the C’Tan’s subconscious. This may be why the gods become individual entities, and then the merging into more powerful forms as the C’Tan ate each other. In a way the gods are fighting themselves, being there own worst enemy.

Kage2020
06-09-2005, 20:13
No old, just didn’t emerge... so the emergent C’Tan, if it was to ever emerge, would be fully formed and exceptionally large.
Ah, fair enough. I'd personally go with the stellar evolution approach and not have a C'tan as an 'invulnerable' being at the centre of a black hole, but there we go. That's just me.


Another area that may be a sign of the materium affecting the Immaterium would be Psykers, and the emotions of the seeded lifeforms.
Well, psykers get the bonus of having the connection to the warp in the first place.


Another idea is that the C’Tan could the the physical manifestations of the chaos gods in the materium, where the chaos gods are like the C’Tan’s subconscious.
Or, erm, the Chaos Gods could be 'gestalt entities' of the emotions of sentient beings in general?


In a way the gods are fighting themselves, being there own worst enemy.
That is true of the Chaos Powers. And seemingy the C'tan. And other gods. Guess it just sounds cool and, indeed, is the meat of mythology.

Kage

Tom
06-09-2005, 20:13
Hang on, if the C'Tan feed off stars, and we link the idea that black holes are how they're created or something, maybe we can set up a C'tan as a kind of stellar parasite, feeding off a star then when it novas it'll reproduce, and the proto-C'tan is born (if such a crude word may be used) inside it (I'm assuming they can FTL considering how they flit about everywhere, and with them being essentially immortal time dilation removes its relevance).

The necrons as basically parasites idea intrigues me.

Now what's interesting is the relevance of the Emperor's last great project, the warp stabiliser. Had Horus not gone heretic, and the Emperor had locked the Warp, would the removal of the C'tan's greatest anathema be the end of all life?

Also, given this, what of extragalactic influence? Are there C'Tan in Andromeda? Does Khorne influence life in the LMC? Or do these galaxies have their own, fascinating Chaos Gods. In fact, are they mere facets of a larger god?

Philip S
06-09-2005, 20:31
Or, erm, the Chaos Gods could be 'gestalt entities' of the emotions of sentient beings in general?
Yes they are, but these gave rise to the C’Tan which in turn then shaped the energies in the warp into gods, mirroring the C’Tan. This way the C’Tan are the personification of our emotions.


That is true of the Chaos Powers. And seemingy the C'tan. And other gods. Guess it just sounds cool and, indeed, is the meat of mythology.

Yep, now is there a C’Tan like Nurgle? Could the Nurgle C’Tan be inside the Black Hole?


Now what's interesting is the relevance of the Emperor's last great project, the warp stabiliser. Had Horus not gone heretic, and the Emperor had locked the Warp, would the removal of the C'tan's greatest anathema be the end of all life?
Hmm, cutting off the warp would not affect most humans (loss of sixth sense?), but if the C’Tan are linked to the warp in this way it would kill them, it would also mean that the chaos gods are stopped from further manifesting in the materium! It is ironic that the C’Tan wanted to do the same, a self destructive suicide streak, perhaps the C’Tan realised the their true nature and decided to have a nap, draw more power and contemplate things (they may be powerful enough that they can draw directly without stars or humans – this would mean that the would be coming more god like, more like the chaos gods)


Also, given this, what of extragalactic influence? Are there C'Tan in Andromeda? Does Khorne influence life in the LMC? Or do these galaxies have their own, fascinating Chaos Gods. In fact, are they mere facets of a larger god?
I think each galaxy has there own, the Nids seem to come from another galaxy and they have a warp shadow. The Nids could be a fully linked warp god with a materium avatar.

The Nids avoid the C’Tan, I wonder why – perhaps it’s not time, or perhaps this new C’Tan (or Old One or whatever) want biological matter to act as it’s host, perhaps that’s why it is heading for Terra, maybe the Emperor DNA is what it’s after (the Nid warp shadow is the star child :p)

Philip

Bmaxwell
06-09-2005, 20:51
amzeing work thats all i have to say is it in a large word doc? if so could you e-mail it to me?

Chaoslordofwar@yahoo.com

Tom
06-09-2005, 21:38
The Nids avoid the C’Tan, I wonder why

*coughcheesecough*

I suppose this cutting off of the psychic sense thing is a bit of an odd goal for the Emperor, seeing as the entire Imperium requires, even lives off psykers to function. Maybe he decided that in order to make Humanity pure, the Imperium wasn't necessary, after all, without the Chaos Gods you can't really be corrupted. Possibly that explains more than would be expected- wipe out the Aliens with the Great Crusade, then keep Humanity stable until the Big E kills off chaos.

Lamhirh
06-09-2005, 21:47
Ah, fair enough. I'd personally go with the stellar evolution approach and not have a C'tan as an 'invulnerable' being at the centre of a black hole, but there we go. That's just me.

Oh great :rolleyes:, now the already ridiculously powerful C'Tan can survive a singularity where everything is compressed to infinite density. Where not even light can escape once it passes beyond the event horizon! Light is a form of electromagnetic radiation, aren't the C'Tan who evolved in stars of a similar nature? Or are they made of unobtainium much like so many things seem to be in 40K...Going back to the subject of C'Tan, to me they are comparable to stellar amoebas, in their natural form they are amorphous sentient beings swimming around in a vast ocean of plasma. IMO inhabited stars might have more than one C'Tan living in them, the numbers could be astronomically high even. Perhaps the C'Tan do possess some type of civilization comparable to that of planetbound species? As MvS mentioned what caused the few C'Tan who were drawn out to become cannibalistic and deranged is the damage wrought to their minds when they were forcibly imprisoned within a necrodermis. There is no reason to assume they are naturally mean however. Closest thing I can imagine to the normal C'Tan are the bizarre Faeros of the 'Seven Suns' series whose version of 'terraforming' involves igniting gas giants with neutron stars. They are not 'evil' per-se but a mad (as in both angry AND crazy) Faero is not something you would ever want to come across while traveling in a spaceship...

MvS
06-09-2005, 21:55
Actually, I wouldn't just say that damage was done to C'tan minds by being made manifest within the necrodermi, I would say that they didn't have the entirely linear and self aware consciousness of mortals like the necrontyr or humans until they were limited within the necrodermi.

Suddenly these vastly amophorous, dispersed and massively though completely weirdly sentient things became mad because they were in a sense given minds. The personification pocess made them aware of smaller things, of day to day existence, made them self aware in a way they hadn't been before and caused them to have ego and identity. This meant that they didn't go insane so much as be made mad as a fundamental part of their new linear, time and 3D bound consciousness.

I think. :)

Lamhirh
06-09-2005, 22:08
Supposedly the C'Tan did something which at the very least interfered with the warp/realspace overlap before even the Slann came about. This would require a collaborative effort on an unprecedented scale. Meaning they were originally far from being 'mindless'. I would say that like the Faeros, normal C'Tan were (and are?) sentient and very much self-aware. That their psychology is odd (to say the least) is a different matter. Add to this the freedom of movement they enjoy which would tend to make them claustrophobic. This would be yet another reason why being trapped in an 'alien' body with more perceptual etc. limitations would be enough to drive them to despair and eventually madness...Also the thought of C'Tan collaborating on anything makes me wonder if they also utilize some sort of 'natural' femtotech communication, like real-space telepathy sans warp.

Kage2020
06-09-2005, 22:24
I maintain that it remains impossible to truly cut off the Warp, but I suppose you could make everyone an Untouchable if you wanted. I don't think that is possible, but there we go.

As to C'tan-as-Chaos Powers, or whatever it is that you're trying to argue for now? Naaah. I'll stick with the 'fluff' that makes a little bit of sense. :D

Kage

Lamhirh
06-09-2005, 22:26
If they did do anything it wasn't absolute, no 'cutting' off of the warp/realspace nonesence. Nothing bigger than the galaxy etc. ;) .

Kage2020
06-09-2005, 22:30
I didn't think that the 'fluff' suggested that they were mindless. Rather, they were 'trapped' within the Necrodermis (which says nothing about native intelligence) and became, seemingly, enamoured with the changing food source. Then again I never believed that all the C'tan came out for lunch, as it were. Just some rather strange ones. The rest remain singing the electromagnetic song of the galaxy... (Ala Attannasio and the Dragon and the Unicorn! :D )\

Kage

Lamhirh
06-09-2005, 23:01
The rest remain singing the electromagnetic song of the galaxy... (Ala Attannasio and the Dragon and the Unicorn!

LOL. The whole of 40K is built along not unlike premises, though I would argue that it oft qualifies less as sci-fi than said book even :rolleyes: ! C'Tan 'singing' would probably sound something like this :) : http://www.nasa.gov/123163main_cas-skr1-112203.wav

I feel some sympathy for the Necrontyr now that I read the whole story. Their obsessive desire for revenge bit them on the behind in a big way, but then again they did manage to make the Slann pay and quite dearly. IMO treating the real C'Tan like just another interesting alien species makes for fluff that isn't dictated by the 'rule of cool' for once. I am also curious as to what the Necrontyr looked like before they became robots, their culture etc. Did they resemble the 'Githyanki' perhaps?:

http://www.ashlock.org/Linni/githwarrior.gif

Kage2020
07-09-2005, 01:04
LOL. The whole of 40K is built along not unlike premises, though I would argue that it oft qualifies less as sci-fi than said book even
Ever since someone else 'coined' or otherwise reminded me of the term I rate 40k nothing more, or less, than 'future fantasy'; fantasy with the odd trapping of the future, but still just fantasy. Preference makes it swing to other genres, e.g. add as much sci-fi/sci-fantasy and you get it to be space opera, a bit of Lovecraftian sauce and you're moving into fantasy horror, etc.

Only problem is that you're getting into rather pedantic, and perhaps inappropriate, sub-divisions of the fantasy genre!


C'Tan 'singing' would probably sound something like this...
I rather liked that! Thanks for posting it, Lamhirh.


IMO treating the real C'Tan like just another interesting alien species makes for fluff that isn't dictated by the 'rule of cool' for once.
As in the 'horror' of their story? Surely there are bits of that throughout the 'fluff'?

Kage

MvS
07-09-2005, 01:28
Some quick thoughts:

Insane C'tan. I think that their natural-state consciousness was so different, dispersed and unlike anything we could consider consciousness that it would seem waaaaay beyond bizarre to any of us were we to try and relate to it and understand its 'thoughts'.

Also, to concetrate these massively dispersed and 100% bodiless alien cosnciousnesses into one small place at one time, with physical sensations from a body they never had before would certainly have an immediate and profound effect upon it i would say

So when I suggest that the C'tan were built crazy, I mean that I doubt that it would have taken long for the absolute freakiness of what they are, what they want, and what they do to start manifesting. I doubt it would have taken the years that seemed to be the implication of the Necron Codex.

Cutting of the Materium from the Immaterium.
I pretty much agree with Kage on this one. It doubt it would be possible. I mean, warpgates could be shut and tears in reality could be stitched up I suppose, but unless all intelligent mortal creatures in the galaxy, or even universe, were turned into an Untouchable (at least) then I doubt the links between Warp and Real-Space could be severed however much the barmy old C'tan would have liked it.

Kage2020
07-09-2005, 01:35
Some quick thoughts:
The joys of kibitzing. Erm, I think... ;)


Insane C'tan. I think that their natural-state consciousness was so different, dispersed and unlike anything we could consider consciousness that it would seem waaaaay beyond bizarre to any of us were we to try and relate to it and understand its 'thoughts'.
While I tentatively agree, there are undertones of perhaps one of the lamest parts of 40k that I've ever come across. That is to say the idea that the 'alien' is unexplainable or cannot be understood. You cannot write about aliens because to do so is to remove that alien quality, or you cannot do justice to them.

In one word, NO!

But getting back to the natural/zero state consciousness of the C'tan, well, yes they would likely be different. Even the transference is going to make them funky. Again, Attannasio springs to mind for his own funky ideas on consciousness with both Dragon and the Unicorn and, perhaps more so, Radox.


Also, to concetrate these massively dispersed and 100% bodiless alien cosnciousnesses into one small place at one time, with physical sensations from a body they never had before would certainly had an immediate and profound effect upon it i would say
Definitely agree with that one. Again, Attannasio ends up being a point of inspiration when talking about 'demons' and 'angels' (fire angels), here, and the difference of why some resist 'going back'.

In short? C'tan are kooks.


I pretty much agree with Kage on this one.
Yay!

Erm...


I mean, warpgates could be shut and tears in reality could be stitched up I suppose...
No warp travel of any form would be permissible either, of course. Erm, talk about stating the obvious on my behalf! :D


...then I doubt the links between Warp and Real-Space could be severed however much the barmy old C'tan would have liked it.
Also, would the universe allow it?

Kage

Lamhirh
07-09-2005, 04:03
Oh, I was by no means saying that the C'Tan aren't odd. They undoubtedly are. VERY. My point was that they were not mentally disconnected from the rest of the universe and have always been self-aware. Take a weird and vast energy based alien and stuff it into a dinky little material body and you don't have to be a xenopsychologist to figure out it's reaction. It's probably not going to be happy in the long run, in fact it might get very, very ANGRY after the initial confusion or 'I-am-a-god' euphoria wears off. Secondly when and 'if' (ex:Outsider) it actually tries to cope with it's predicament it's going to do so in ways that are very much in keeping with it's bizarre C'Tan mentality.

Zholud
07-09-2005, 05:33
Even if C'tan actually wakes up in a black hole, we'll never know that - those holes are singularity points, where mass reaches infinity and time approaches zero. Thus there ios no difference for actual universe - C'tan cannot act or thinks inside the hole.

As for emergence of life, shouldn't Old Slann emerge somewhere in the galaxy's centre - there should be first planets...
:rolleyes:

Philip S
07-09-2005, 10:20
Even if C'tan actually wakes up in a black hole, we'll never know that - those holes are singularity points, where mass reaches infinity and time approaches zero. Thus there ios no difference for actual universe - C'tan cannot act or thinks inside the hole.
The science of black holes is all theory, besides the C'Tan have a get out clause in that if they are created from processed (materium stable) warp energy as they don't quite obey the laws of the materium, the materium is not their master, they are the master of it. So a black hole will only contain it until it has enough power to distort time/ space and escape.

Philip

FieronThor
07-09-2005, 11:14
Just a quick question, since the Slann were more comfortable in the Warp, could the C'tan of used the Black Holes as refuges if they deemed necessary?

MvS
07-09-2005, 13:10
While I tentatively agree, there are undertones of perhaps one of the lamest parts of 40k that I've ever come across. That is to say the idea that the 'alien' is unexplainable or cannot be understood. You cannot write about aliens because to do so is to remove that alien quality, or you cannot do justice to them.
Indeed.

This isn't what I meant. We can know their drives in the sense that they need to feed and yadda-yadda-ya. I was simply referring to the idea that C'tan consciousness in their natural state probably didn't operate in a way on on a scale that could be interpreted with any ease by human, Eldar or Necrontyr for that matter.

In fact, they aren't even lifeforms in the way that these 'lesser' races are. I see the natural-state C'tan as being similar to amoeba or somesuch, only amoeba who are aware of their environment, operate within an environment far more vast than any amoeba, and, unlike amoeba, are self aware - although perhaps not in the sense that you or are I are.

So whereas I wouldn't dream of falling back onto the 'they're like soooo freaky man! Really, reeeaaally above and beyond us, y'know. Like wow, cosmic' gambit of sci-fi explanation, I think it's fair to say that the thoughts of the natural state C'tan were entirely different in formulation and end 'product' than the races that then had to confront them, like the Eldar, and Necrontyr.

The Slann would occupy a similar hard-to-relate-to area, in that their minds occupied two planes, one temporal and one a-temporal (or so I like to think), and so would also appear pretty weird and schizo to your average Eldar or human.


would the universe allow it?
Good point. The connection between Warp and Real-Space might be fundamental to Creation itself and therefore impossible to sever without either failing completely or destroying absolutely everything, everywhere ever - which seems pretty unlikely to me. ;)

Kage2020
07-09-2005, 13:33
The science of black holes is all theory...
Yes, it is. A darn good one, though. Another 'magic pebble' for you to ignore, Philip?


...besides the C'Tan have a get out clause in that if they are created from processed (materium stable) warp energy...
Oh, cr*p. ;) Now C'tan are made out phased iron or something Phillip? ;) The C'Toe(ism) returns! :P


Just a quick question, since the Slann were more comfortable in the Warp, could the C'tan of used the Black Holes as refuges if they deemed necessary?
Who knows? Depends on whether you think that the 'Slann' (by this I believe you mean Old Ones?) were composed of 'psychic energy' and whether such energy is restricted by physical laws. And see the above... As you can see when you're talking about the more nebulous parts of the 40k universe, anything goes. It just depends on how much you can swallow and whether, in 'fluff' terms, you've got the jaw structure of a snake! :D


This isn't what I meant... I was simply referring to the idea that C'tan consciousness in their natural state probably didn't operate in a way on on a scale that could be interpreted with any ease by human, Eldar or Necrontyr for that matter.
Fair enough. As I said, it shaded into the aforementioned 'alien clause', which was worrying (insofar as it is only a game universe!).


Good point. The connection between Warp and Real-Space might be fundamental to Creation itself and therefore impossible to sever without either failing completely or destroying absolutely everything, everywhere ever - which seems pretty unlikely to me.
And if you work with the atemporal warp idea, to destroy the warp at any point means that you would have to destroy the warp at all points... ;)

Kage

Brusilov
07-09-2005, 13:35
Indeed, and that last point is probably the failing of the C'tan Great Work, IMHO life could probably not survive without the Warp and obviously vice versa. The two universes are the indissociable sides of the same coin.
When you see the effect of Untouchables on humans, the effect of a total severing of the warp from the material universe would probably be the death of sentient life, unless you replace all people by Untouchables.

FieronThor
07-09-2005, 13:38
Great analogy about the snake, Kage. I think in a way the whole question on debating about the C'tan and their powers has to be related to the real life universe, or you really can't quantify or understand it.

Kage2020
07-09-2005, 13:55
Only problem there is that it is difficult to relate anything of 40k to the real universe without significantly changing it. Too much is moderated by personal preference, what you're using it for, etc. Surely?

Kage

Philip S
07-09-2005, 14:04
Oh, cr*p. ;) Now C'tan are made out phased iron or something Phillip? ;) The C'Toe(ism) returns! :P
With a vengeance!

C’Tan are border-space beings (materium side), Enslavers and Spectral Hounds are Border-Space (warp side). As a they are border-space they are ‘phased’ but they can vary the amount of phase hence their command of the materium.

Psyker effects are also based in Boarder-Space, but the C’Tan can’t draw of the warp like a Psyker can in order to power their abilities, and being border-space means they are vulnerable to Psykers because, as I say, they can’t channel warp power to protect themselves and being phased means they are easier to manipulate (hence the jump to material bodies for (minor) protection).

The C’Tan draw power from the materium (regular non-Psyker energy), much like border-space fields draw energy from the materium.

As all sci-fi effects a squished into border-space physics, the C’Tan have a natural ability to modify and build machines to enhance and take advantage of those effects, hence the Necrons highly advanced technology (The Necron warriors are made of phased materials, when they are damaged they phase out totally in order to ‘teleport’ back to base).

Warp drive is special and a complete nightmare of border-space physics, basically a spherical power-filed generator array is built to produce the Border-Space ‘bubble’ :p, then within this bubble a new machine is built to further distort reality, this new pure border-space machine (inside the bubble) produces an inverted field (obeying the laws of border-space!), i.e. the effect is on the exterior of the field. The field can be big enough to enclose a ship. Once the filed is set up, reality literally losses its grip on the ship and the ship drops into the warp (so a warp drive is a ‘double distortion’ field generator)

Philip

Kage2020
07-09-2005, 14:17
Right, now that you've got that out off your chest we can go back to discussing things about the 40k universe! :D Hopefully not another thread to bite the dust, as it were... <sigh>

Kage

FieronThor
07-09-2005, 17:10
I just think we gotta agree that C'tan are just so darn powerful and the Old Ones were each probably akin to being a 'God'.

Lamhirh
07-09-2005, 17:51
The Slann would occupy a similar hard-to-relate-to area, in that their minds occupied to planes, one temporal and one a-temporal (or so I like to think), and so would also appear pretty weird and schizo to your average Eldar or human.

The fine workings of the their mind would probably be quite difficult if not impossible for us to approximate. For example, try picking apart a B5 Vorlon or Shadow's brain, NOT easy. However some general behavior patterns wouldn't be that hard to determine through the use of simple observation and logic ;) . Even your average Eldar is inherently bi-polar when compared to your average human :p ! Despite the fact that they are alien, they are more like humans (psychologically speaking) than any ther alien species that I can think of in 40K. That said, Eldar are still pretty damn weird. Now imagine the others :rolleyes: ...

Zholud
07-09-2005, 19:17
The science of black holes is all theory, besides the C'Tan have a get out clause in that if they are created from processed (materium stable) warp energy as they don't quite obey the laws of the materium, the materium is not their master, they are the master of it. So a black hole will only contain it until it has enough power to distort time/ space and escape. 1. C'tan has infinite power QED is too easy way. I hoped for better from you.
2. Warped C'tan - if so, how it comes that the warp is anathema for them?
3. contain until logical structure cannot be applied to signularity points. There is no 'until', that the point.
:rolleyes:

Philip S
07-09-2005, 19:47
1. C'tan has infinite power QED is too easy way. I hoped for better from you.
Not infinite, different.


2.Warped C'tan - if so, how it comes that the warp is anathema for them?
They are Border-Space (Material side) and draw power from the materium so are particularly vulnerable to warp energy (Border-Space being closer to the warp, normally materium side is isolated from the warp side – a barrier between the two, can't cross because of infinite power hence the double distortion warp engine)

The warp energy of the C'Tan has been modified in the process of being pulled into the materium via the star gravity, it in not 'warp' but 'border' (related, but materium stable)


.3 contain until logical structure cannot be applied to signularity points. There is no 'until', that the point.
Time may or may not stop in the materium but it still flows in Border-Space, the C'Tan is in Border-Space.


:rolleyes:
:p

Philip

Kage2020
07-09-2005, 19:52
Despite the fact that they are alien, they are more like humans (psychologically speaking) than any ther alien species that I can think of in 40K. That said, Eldar are still pretty damn weird. Now imagine the others :rolleyes: ...
One might argue that they remain caricatures of human psyche. :D

Kage

Zholud
08-09-2005, 05:46
They are Border-Space (Material side) and draw power from the materium so are particularly vulnerable to warp energy (Border-Space being closer to the warp, normally materium side is isolated from the warp side – a barrier between the two, can't cross because of infinite power hence the double distortion warp engine) Uhhh... we've gone horrenously off-topic. You've add too many different properties to the Border-space, while for me it is 'just' a warp areaclosest to materium, where E=mc^2 does not apply, but the rest is fairly calm.
Quiestion to MvS:
Do you think that the abovementioned 'warp origin' of C'tans is correct? For me, having them as the most material of all beings is a better option.

:rolleyes:

Philip S
08-09-2005, 10:00
Uhhh... we've gone horrenously off-topic. You've add too many different properties to the Border-space, while for me it is 'just' a warp areaclosest to materium, where E=mc^2 does not apply, but the rest is fairly calm.
The warp is infinite possibility, anything can happen and let the imagination run riot – It think this is why it is so much fun to think about its structure.

A note on the 'double distortion' warp drive; it only gets you into the warp side border-space, where the materium is still having an effect, strongest at the barrier and trailing off as you go deeper. This is why gravity has an effect in the warp, but the effect is err, warped! Near the barrier warp side, the materium is affecting as 49%, this area most often referred to as the 'shallows', as the influence of the materium drops to around 10% this is referred to as the 'deeps'. No Imperial Ship has ever gone beyond 1% (or even 10%), it is a limitation of the warp drive, it can't get into 'proper' warp space, but even at 10% (super experimental craft during the D/GAoT) travel is becoming almost instant, most ship try to stay above 30% with a navigator. (The old navigated jumps, where originally like Tau skim drives, and when the when to double-distortion they stayed very close to the barrier.)

All the gods and daemons are in the warp side of border-space and that's why they have forms, though they mutate and change. Emotions can exist and is one of the last things of the materium to dissipate warp-side (due to warp reversing weirdness, mild delicate things survive longer, emotions are a very defecate force – but warp side they are raging infernos!).

It is possible, that the Old Ones/ Slann or whatever, may have made the transition to pure warp. Beyond the barrier, beyond border-space, beyond the daemons and gods, and have transcended reality altogether. Into a place where humanity can not follow....

Philip

Kage2020
08-09-2005, 13:06
Uhhh... we've gone horrenously off-topic... For me, having them as the most material of all beings is a better option.
Agreed and, well, agreed.

Too much black-boxing or C'toeism going on here. But that's just me.

Kage

Philip S
08-09-2005, 14:01
Agreed and, well, agreed.

Too much black-boxing or C'toeism going on here. But that's just me.
Yep, lots of black-boxing but how to deal with the warp which is fundamental non-scientific?

Now that I have a (my version) structure it’s easier to work up concepts based on that structure, such as the design of a warp drive because all the concepts are laid out, I can see the design in my head before I even start. And as an un-black-boxing moment, the design can be shown, it doesn’t have to be hidden away it can be their for all to see and understand.

The structure of the warp is laid out so I can work out the limits of a given 40K technology, and I hope that these idea help writers when working up their writings (hence why I posted them here).

The is the ‘bare’ structure, a writer could take this and colour it a thousand different ways, give an infinite number of interpretations, but at he same time know how far the technology can go, what is possible and what is not, and where they have to go to bend the rules or even break them.

A writer wouldn’t be bound by these rules even if taken as true 40K, characters can still lie or just get it wrong, or things don’t appear as what they really are, and as a final part this could just be the Ad-Mec take on things, as it fundamentally deals with technology, and as laid out ‘pure’ warp is unknowable, nothing has been there an returned not even the gods, so this is could be seen as incomplete, there is still mystery, and where the Old Ones are.

Makes life easier for us creative types, well artists anyway, I may be making MvS life more difficult ;)

Philip

Kage2020
08-09-2005, 14:17
Yep, lots of black-boxing but how to deal with the warp which is fundamental non-scientific?

Now that I have a (my version) structure it’s easier to work up concepts based on that structure, such as the design of a warp drive because all the concepts are laid out, I can see the design in my head before I even start.
Been there, done that before you and have the t-shirt. Actually I don't have the t-shirt. Perhaps I should consider making one and wearing it to a GD? Hmmn, perhaps not.


The structure of the warp is laid out so I can work out the limits of a given 40K technology, and I hope that these idea help writers when working up their writings (hence why I posted them here).
It's okay, Phillip. Again, I've done it before and use the same premise of a slight 'reinterpretation' of the warp to allow a consistent framework. I just don't find your interpretation particularly appealing, but do not feel that a discussion of the relative merits of your 'border space' with my 'layered warp' to be that relevant to the discussion here. Mainly because it all comes down to interpretation. (And a disadvantage of the 'layered warp' is that I cannot apply it to interpreting every single feature of the 40k universe, from powered armour weight to bypassing of aerodynamics. Then again I don't really see that as a problem!)

Again, I just don't like "border space" more so when you start waxing lyrical about how it inter-relates with 'power field' theory, and how an obvious byproduct of that is that the C'tan are undiluted warp energy made material, or something like that. Heck, I nominally use the 40k universe to roleplay in and, in so doing, represent 'psykers' through the use of suitably modified and flavoured 'magic' rules. I would not, however, go about applying that same magic to every single thing in the 40k universe.

So anyway, continue to discuss 'border physics' or whatever to your hearts content. Just another thread that I shall be forced to bow out of. <sigh>

/Kage

Xisor
08-09-2005, 14:26
Harking back to the original points.

Whilst on average it can be 'assumed' that Human evolution is quite late on in the 'evolutionary' stakes timewise, we can probably also assume that the Old Ones, C'tan etc were simply the first. None of the probability parts *really* apply here, rather only as soon as such as thin has a probability 'possible' in the Galaxy, I think it's best to go with that being *them*. Does that make sense?

To me, without 'additional knowledge', the appearance of the Old Ones and the Necrontyr and such would occur as early as possible, but I'm willing to place this as (before) when reasonably advanced life on earth 'came about'. Am I correct in saying this is the last 1Bn years?In this manner, during the various 'times of the Dinosaurs', ie back about ~100s of Millions of Years, 'everything happened'.

Myself, I place the Enslaver plague 'begining', the real part of the C'tan's Great Work and the hibernation of the C'tan and Necrons at 'roughly' 60 Million Years ago. The 'Great' War in Heaven(OO vs C't/Necs) could have taken place millions before this, with the C'tan dominion of the Galaxy lasting decades of millions of years? In this manner, the final 'four' C'tan could have been the final four from as far back as 100-200million years ago...perhaps longer?

Essentially, whilst my reasoning may be entirely off, I stem it all from the idea that the C'tan are 'timeless', they view plans and intentions of such a scale that everything from human existance is quite unfeasibly small, but still perceivable...in much the same way we percieve an atom? Thus all I'm really saying is the timescale of events from 65-60My is a bit ... short?

EDIT: To contribute to the Border-Space thing, there is distinct support for an idea 'like' that stemming from the Specialist Games literature on Tau 'Warp Dive' travel. They 'bounce off' a border-void between Real Space and Warp Space, this void would certainly seem capable of 'breaking' the laws of Physics(how else does one achieve FTL travel without blatantly saying it breaks it...) in the manner of the warp itself, but without the whole sea of souls edge to it. Perhaps it is plausible that further extrapolating on this idea could give a cohesive view on Warp-Border-Real and the relation of a rock, a C'tan/Untouchable and a 'normal' being? Each being dependent on one or more of the three parts in different measure?

Xisor

Kage2020
08-09-2005, 14:36
Again, been there, done that. ;)

//Kage

Philip S
08-09-2005, 15:04
(And a disadvantage of the 'layered warp' is that I cannot apply it to interpreting every single feature of the 40k universe, from powered armour weight to bypassing of aerodynamics.
Hence my point about a writer can take my theory and interpret it a million different ways, you discussions on layered warp where very interesting and I see it as being similar to what I have laid out. I think you had a problem with Tau skim drives?


So anyway, continue to discuss 'border physics' or whatever to your hearts content. Just another thread that I shall be forced to bow out of. <sigh>
Then add something new, it’s not like I own the thread!


EDIT: To contribute to the Border-Space thing, there is distinct support for an idea 'like' that stemming from the Specialist Games literature on Tau 'Warp Dive' travel. They 'bounce off' a border-void between Real Space and Warp Space, this void would certainly seem capable of 'breaking' the laws of Physics(how else does one achieve FTL travel without blatantly saying it breaks it...) in the manner of the warp itself, but without the whole sea of souls edge to it. Perhaps it is plausible that further extrapolating on this idea could give a cohesive view on Warp-Border-Real and the relation of a rock, a C'tan/Untouchable and a 'normal' being? Each being dependent on one or more of the three parts in different measure?
Totally agree,

I see the warp as being fundamental to 40K’s exotic hardware and creatures. This doesn’t mean that science is chucked out the window; it just means that the more extreme ‘science’ is replaced with border-space physics, but all the rest, the real science that works can stay ;)

The Tau skim drive travels through border-space [materium side] and as it hasn’t breached the barrier, warp entities and some of the more extreme warp effects do not touch it (in a way this would be similar to a slow warp-engine form Star Trek or Star Wars).

A Tau skim-drive is a ‘single distortion’ engine, and Imperial warp-drive is a ‘double distortion’ engine. Once the Tau can build machines inside a distortion they can build a true warp-drive.

However building inside a distortion is very difficult, I imagine the materials at 51% materium, 49% warp no longer act as they do in the materium, metals may melt into liquid plasma and the circuits built out of pulse waves rippling through the medium and form lines where ripple overlaps or collide, then power runs through these shifting lines, to bring about localised ripples/ refractions forming more and more complex patterns down to what may would be beyond nano-tech. In this way a machine is built, and probably a lot more complex that this, but is depends on the distortion to exist. Turn of the distortion and the machine inside is destroyed (utterly), you’ll be left with bits of intricate metal lattices, bonded silicon and carbon dust, water, hydrogen, oxygen, oil, as unfathomable phased compounds decompose, anything but a warp drive.

Philip

Xisor
08-09-2005, 15:10
However building inside a distortion is very difficult, I imagine the materials at 51% materium, 49% warp no longer act as they do in the materium, metals may melt into liquid plasma and the circuits built out of pulse waves rippling through the medium and form lines where ripple overlaps or collide, then power runs through these shifting lines, to bring about localised ripples/ refractions forming more and more complex patterns down to what may would be beyond nano-tech. In this way a machine is built, and probably a lot more complex that this, but is depends on the distortion to exist. Turn of the distortion and the machine inside is destroyed (utterly), you’ll be left with bits of intricate metal lattices, bonded silicon and carbon dust, water, hydrogen, oxygen, oil, as unfathomable phased compounds decompose, anything but a warp drive.

Personally, whilst that sound fairly plausible as an idea(not a well thought out plan :p ), I'd say a simple Deus Ex Machina to get out of it is to note that a Geller Field negates this effect, almost allowing a 'bubble' of normality. Then again, this kind of reasoning *does* allow for things like space hulks and such to arise from the complex interaction of realworld physics and warp-bound physics, even minor gravitational/magnetic/electric pulls brings the matter together in the warp, but the warping effects still distort the makeup of things themselves.

Then again, perhaps the deal with the warp being a 'sea of souls' means that it's also 'not entirely random/free fall' in a manner. This way the Ruinous powers could affect things 'directly' in a manner too.

Xisor

Philip S
08-09-2005, 15:27
Personally, whilst that sound fairly plausible as an idea(not a well thought out plan :p ), I'd say a simple Deus Ex Machina to get out of it is to note that a Geller Field negates this effect, almost allowing a 'bubble' of normality. Then again, this kind of reasoning *does* allow for things like space hulks and such to arise from the complex interaction of realworld physics and warp-bound physics, even minor gravitational/magnetic/electric pulls brings the matter together in the warp, but the warping effects still distort the makeup of things themselves.
The Geller field if the second distortion!

Design; the central distortion field array is spherical, deep within the ship and is considered the ‘engine’. Inside this array the first distortion is set up by the array via many field projectors. A new machine is built inside the first distortion, and when the new machine is powered up it makes a new distortion of it’s own, the second distortion.

It is this second distortion that does the business, it is normal inside but outside it distorts and reality can not hold it any more, so it drops out of existence. This is how I got around the field interfering with each other (where the second would disrupt the first).

So while the first distortion is active, the ship is normal as all the weirdness is contained inside the warp engine, once the second machine inside the warp engine, inside the distortion is activated, that’s when the ship makes a jump.

Philip

Kage2020
08-09-2005, 17:53
Okay, I've suckered myself into posting again. I'll just stop when I end up getting annoyed of discussing the same uber-theory over and over again! ;)


Hence my point about a writer can take my theory and interpret it a million different ways, you discussions on layered warp where very interesting and I see it as being similar to what I have laid out. I think you had a problem with Tau skim drives?
From what I can tell, other than the application of 'border physics' to every single aspect of the 'fluff', the 'layered warp' isn't that similar to your 'border space'. (Even though I additionally named one part of it the 'border' space as a nod-of-the-head to it.) Your 'border' has magical properties that apply to everything, as far as I can tell. I just have an 'astral space' based upon concepts laid down in the game universe and from initial quotes from Watson's Draco/Inquisitor, a 'boundary' between this and the 'upper' (actually deeper) 'planes', the 'warp proper', another little boundary and then what might be considered the 'Realm of Chaos'.

And, no, I don't have a problem with Tau drives. They're perfectly explainable even if the authors don't seem to agree on the representation thereof.

In retrospect I suppose you can say that your 'border warp' has similarities to the 'layered warp'. You just have an extremely hazy middle ground. Still prefer mine, obviously, but then that gets back to it not applying to everything in the universe. Both approaches are, however, rigorous. Again, it's just the application that gets to me as an individual.


Then add something new, it’s not like I own the thread!
Additions to the 'pre history', or alterations to the concepts, were added in a separate thread.


This doesn’t mean that science is chucked out the window; it just means that the more extreme ‘science’ is replaced with border-space physics, but all the rest, the real science that works can stay
Given you apply that border space physics to everything which, if you believe some, make the 40k universe 'unique' that's still saying quite a bit.


A Tau skim-drive is a ‘single distortion’ engine, and Imperial warp-drive is a ‘double distortion’ engine. Once the Tau can build machines inside a distortion they can build a true warp-drive.
Ah, double inversion of the asymmetric psycho-photonic transversion field? Now you put it like that I get what you're saying! :rolleyes: ;)


Then again, this kind of reasoning *does* allow for things like space hulks and such to arise from the complex interaction of realworld physics and warp-bound physics, even minor gravitational/magnetic/electric pulls brings the matter together in the warp, but the warping effects still distort the makeup of things themselves.
Though to be fair you don't need to go to such lengths to make space hulks work. Natural warp gates, etc., can all do this without recourse to uber-theory.

Kage

Khas
09-09-2005, 15:15
Dear MvS, would it be possible to ask you to list what source material you used to compile this mighty post. I'm not doubting the contents of the post in any way, but I'm one of the people that would like to check upon the source myself, drink directly from the chalice if you will.

I really liked this post and must applaud you for taking the time and effort to make such an exhaustive compilation.

Well done :)

MvS
09-09-2005, 19:04
I wouldn't spend too much time checking out my sources, as the majority of it is my own work and the product of various lengthy discussion on the Portent Boards with such luminaries as Brusilov, Kage2020, Briareos, Inquisitor Engel, Zholud and many others.

That isn't to say we all agree on everything in the timeline I've written, merely that many theories were taken into account in its writing. The idea was to try and fill in some of the many gaps in the imagery and explore some of the more difficult-to-rationalise sections - like the Eldar existing as a civilisation for 60 million years, but still being 'minor' enough to be whupped around from time to time by a bunch of hairless apes calling themselves humanity. That kind of thing.

Most importantly, most of the timeline is malleable. If anyone can come up with better rationalisations or criticisms of it, then it can be changed. It's really intended as a group effort.

:)

EDIT:

I actually forgot to answer your questions: Eldar Codices past and present, the Necron Codex, WD Articles (don't remember the numbers), and some parts of the old Realm of Chaos books.

Kage2020
10-09-2005, 00:02
Hmmn. I love that typographic! :D "...suck liminaries as...". Very very funny. Which reminds me, I really am going to have to read through the document again. I remember having it printed out and lots of hand-scrawled notes over it, but for some reason that never made the transition across the Pond.

Kage

MvS
10-09-2005, 07:42
Oops!

I genuine typo not a Freudian slip, honest!

I'll correct it. :)

The Judge
10-09-2005, 09:11
My favourite part of Eldar pre-history is where Khaine lays the smackdown on Eldanesh, and stains an entire moon red with his blood. Also, a previous White Dwarf has information on the origins of the Dark Eldar, citing Asdrubael Vect as the leader of the scattered survivors on the Eldar worlds.

Brilliant work.

Horus_Lupercal
21-02-2010, 16:30
that was cool man thanks for putting in the time. you should write a short story about some of the battles between the eldar and the necrons. i think you could make it really awesome.

DapperAnarchist
21-02-2010, 16:40
Since this has already been dragged up from the depths...

An explanation for how humans managed to make three of the most powerful Warp Entities - Though in the 12th century they were only on one planet, they would become powerful, and therefore in the warp, already were. What occurred between 20,000 AD and 40,000 AD affected what happened in 1000-1500 AD. Nurgle, Khorne and Tzeentch, as Human Gods, were powerful then because the species from which they came would become powerful in the future.

Lord Asgul
22-02-2010, 00:57
Awesome Thread...must be re-read by everyone :) or read for the first time by a noobie like me...

Inquisitor Engel
22-02-2010, 02:27
Since this has already been dragged up from the depths...

Indeed... :shifty:

Necromancy record, surely! 5 years? Wow.

Still, a good one to drag up. :)



An explanation for how humans managed to make three of the most powerful Warp Entities - Though in the 12th century they were only on one planet, they would become powerful, and therefore in the warp, already were. What occurred between 20,000 AD and 40,000 AD affected what happened in 1000-1500 AD. Nurgle, Khorne and Tzeentch, as Human Gods, were powerful then because the species from which they came would become powerful in the future.

I think the thing here is that it wasn't humanity AT THAT TIME that spawned the Chaos Gods - remember that time has no meaning in the Warp, all things occur simultaneously. This is something the Daemons Codex solidified (and has long been a subject of debate amongst us 40k Background monkeys) recently - the obvious example being that Slaanesh was born before, after and simultaneous with the Eldar rise in decadence and subsequent Fall.


<ASIDE>

I think the big thing I've learnt from the developers (one specifically) in the subsequent years of this thread, is that the Slann were in fact the Eldar Gods, utterly and entirely. This is written down in a tome somewhere in Lenton.

This of course spilt milk (1) all over my and others' supposition from Portent that the Eldar in fact created the Eldar Gods through warp manipulation via emotions. I managed to reconcile this with the new "Isha and Kournos LITERALLY created the Eldar together" theory.


Slann create/uplift Eldar.
Eldar thoughts and emotions begin to coalesce into warp vortices around perceived Gods in materium (Slann themselves)
Slann research into ascension gives has them basically meld their own distinct warp personalities and presences with the vortices created by the Eldar, leaving their frog-bodies behind but still with a very tangible link to the materium, leading to the ability to "cross-over" due to the inane power and links they maintain.

Handily ties the two theories together, as well as explains their PHYSICAL presence as actual GODS in the War in Heaven AND interactions with the Chaos gods later on.

I know it's not perfect, but I'd love to iron things out with anyone since MvS is again more active and we've got a whole new batch of Fluff Nuts here now. :)

(1) I did however get confirmation that my "Sword of Vaul = Dawnblade" theory from Portent was taken on board (though I don't think it was what was ultimately adopted as "internal canon"). I still like it, and it certainly has legs! :D

Hellebore
22-02-2010, 02:35
I think that within the warp time is meaningless but when the warp interacts with realspace it's not. Because if it was, Slannesh would have been terrorising the old ones before they made the eldar, every chaos god that will exist in the future would be sending daemonic minions into real space NOW and so on. The setting doesn't follow it's own logic if the warp AND realspace combined produce timlessness.

Hellebore

Kage2020
22-02-2010, 02:59
The only problem is that the entire "prehistory" can be solved by using white-out on one of the zeros in the timeline. Divide by ten and things tend to get a tiny bit more palatable. None of the somewhat contrived story of the Enslaver Plague, and you can even have the C'tan tinkering with basic humanity and trying to get an oar into Old One pie (to mix metaphors). You don't even have to pull out the 'ole acausal warp.


This is something the Daemons Codex solidified (and has long been a subject of debate amongst us 40k Background monkeys) recently - the obvious example being that Slaanesh was born before, after and simultaneous with the Eldar rise in decadence and subsequent Fall.
MvS was very keen to hear peoples' thoughts on this subject, even if he didn't author the Daemon Codex. Perhaps he left some notes on the subject? I must admit that I still haven't gotten around to reading the Liber Chaotica... :D


I think the big thing I've learnt from the developers (one specifically) in the subsequent years of this thread, is that the Slann were in fact the Eldar Gods, utterly and entirely. This is written down in a tome somewhere in Lenton.
Well, there was at least on theory that stated this without going down the route of them actually being the gods.


This of course spilt milk (1) all over my and others' supposition from Portent that the Eldar in fact created the Eldar Gods through warp manipulation via emotions.
Wasn't that actually stated in one of the codices? I haven't bought GW products in such a long time that I'm kind of getting out of it... That and I'm not overtly keen on the direction that the universe has been taking. (Different strokes and each to their own, of course.)

Interesting solution. My knee jerk reaction was to dislike it, but I think that the idea that the "transcendent" Slann became the gods has some interesting potential. With that said, I remain unconvinced at the idea that they have to be able to fully manifest, feeling that it is completely unnecessary except to justify some of the contrivances of the Eldar Mythological Cycles.

Of course, this makes the "Asuryan Event" to actually be an inversion--rather than the Eldar being sundered from heaven, it's actually the "gods" that are put into heaven. It's also interesting to speculate as to the nature of the Old Ones that transcended...

Kage

Brother Siccarius
22-02-2010, 04:09
My only real problem with the timeline is this:


or they do not affect the Warp in that way (as is the case with the Orks).

Which is simply untrue, as orks do indeed have an effect on the warp. Gork and Mork are true Warp-Gods of massive size.


Some quick thoughts:

Insane C'tan. I think that their natural-state consciousness was so different, dispersed and unlike anything we could consider consciousness that it would seem waaaaay beyond bizarre to any of us were we to try and relate to it and understand its 'thoughts'.
from what we know, the C'tan seem to be fairly coherent for the most part. They are able to decieve the necrotyr into their current bodies and lead or command massive armies across multiple warzones, so I don't see them as being insane or unknowable.

The one exception being the Outsider, who in consuming other Ctan absorbed their personalities into his own and who seems to be warring with himself from all perspectives.

Idaan
22-02-2010, 10:03
I think that within the warp time is meaningless but when the warp interacts with realspace it's not. Because if it was, Slannesh would have been terrorising the old ones before they made the eldar, every chaos god that will exist in the future would be sending daemonic minions into real space NOW and so on. The setting doesn't follow it's own logic if the warp AND realspace combined produce timlessness.

HelleboreBut he was. As I've said in the other thread, the Cabal referred to Four Properties of Primordial Annihilator with no hint that there used to be only Three just two hundred years prior. The Laer civilisation was built on Slaanesh worship and it didn't seem like a new thing. Then there was the Slaaneshi Daemon Prince Shaha Gaathon in "Farseer" who had his/her/its hands in causing the Fall.

MvS
22-02-2010, 10:18
This really is the darkest and most despicable threadomancy. :)

I'd like to point out that over the last 5 years my thoughts have evolved on various issues raised in this thread - so although it is 'canon', I tend to prefer the dropping of zeros that Kage mentioned to make the timeline less crazy and full of holes.

Also the idea that 'ascended' Old Ones became the Eldar gods is a fine one. In the past it was a far more hazy affair as to what they were. I like the idea now because it lends weight to my preference that powerful and 'ascended' mortal souls often offer more hope in relation to the Warp than the extreme 'tidal' forces that develop in there.

So Khorne is a monomaniacal personification of extremes of range, bloodlust and the desire to fight/kill (etc), the Emperor (or Ynnead, take your pick) as a god might be an amalgamation of the entirety of many, many psyker/Eldar souls, with all their memories, wisdom, knowledge, experiences, opinions, desires and concerns (good, bad and indifferent), and so may be a more rounded and subtle entity that can be 'dealt' with more rationally perhaps.

As for the C'tan being insane - I was using the term in the sense that they would not be at all 'normal'. They don't have to be insane as in "screaming nutter with his underpants on his head", but their motivations would not necessarily have to fit into 'natural' drives to feed or whatever. They may actually see themselves as 'gods', rather than regard themselves as 'big clouds that consume stars'. The former is a value judgment and the latter is a simple explanation of what they 'physically' are. So insanity can just mean warped perceptions and non-factually beliefs in value judgements of various kinds.

EDIT:


Which is simply untrue, as orks do indeed have an effect on the warp. Gork and Mork are true Warp-Gods of massive size.
Yes, this was more hazy back when I wrote the history for Portent.

Different writers seemed to vacillate in their emphasis between the Orks producing a subconscious 'warpfield' of sorts, that drew energy from the Warp but which manifested when Orks got together in large enough numbers. So the Ork gods were as much a Waagh as they were entities.

Although this kind of idea has risen and fallen over the years, I think the general thrust now lies mostly with what you say - that the Ork Gods are present in the Warp. However, I still like to imagine them as being just like Orks themselves. So under 'normal circumstances Gork and Mork are relatively quiescent, only becoming agitated, 'large' and able to interact with Realspace when Orks get together in large enough numbers for a specific purpose. The Gork and Mork become focussed and 'certain' in a way they are perhaps not under 'normal' circumstances, just as during Waaghs Ork cultural purpose and civilisation becomes more coherent and certain. So the gods are a very present and dependent reflection of the actions and feelings Orks as a species.

Inquisitor Engel
22-02-2010, 13:06
MvS was very keen to hear peoples' thoughts on this subject, even if he didn't author the Daemon Codex. Perhaps he left some notes on the subject? I must admit that I still haven't gotten around to reading the Liber Chaotica... :D

It's really good. I haven't read the updated "Undivided" bits that came in the single-tome as I rushed to pick it all up on first-issue (and missed Khorne, took me four years to track down a mint copy!). It adds a lot, even if the initial "Khaine/Khorne" revelation made me quite angry. ;)



Wasn't that actually stated in one of the codices? I haven't bought GW products in such a long time that I'm kind of getting out of it... That and I'm not overtly keen on the direction that the universe has been taking. (Different strokes and each to their own, of course.)

Alas, it was not stated, not that I remember anyway.


I remain unconvinced at the idea that they have to be able to fully manifest, feeling that it is completely unnecessary except to justify some of the contrivances of the Eldar Mythological Cycles.

Contrivances? Come on Kage, you have actual interaction on the physical plane and the Blackstone Fortresses being created by something that can't directly be a part of the Materium? I guess it depends how much creedence you place on the Eldar myths as being "Myth" and "Oral History" (I lean towards the latter, obviously).


Of course, this makes the "Asuryan Event" to actually be an inversion--rather than the Eldar being sundered from heaven, it's actually the "gods" that are put into heaven. It's also interesting to speculate as to the nature of the Old Ones that transcended...



I hadn't thought of that - very nice. Makes a good bit of sense!


But he was. As I've said in the other thread, the Cabal referred to Four Properties of Primordial Annihilator with no hint that there used to be only Three just two hundred years prior. The Laer civilisation was built on Slaanesh worship and it didn't seem like a new thing. Then there was the Slaaneshi Daemon Prince Shaha Gaathon in "Farseer" who had his/her/its hands in causing the Fall.

+4 for this man. Someone buy him a beer.

One could easily get around the "you cannot have Warp Gods exist forever without there being a calm warp" by simply saying that the Chaos Gods "timelessness" is limited by the presence of warp vortices, so before there were true vortices (pre-Eldar, pre-human, pre-Ork etc) of emotion, there was simply nowhere IN the Warp for them to exist, but for all intents and purposes to the races banging about today (including most of the Cabal I'd wager) they have ALWAYS existed.

Kage2020
22-02-2010, 13:42
It's really good.
I have it somewhere but... maybe I was put off by the purported WFRP focus, which is strange since while it's not a particularly inspiring game (to me), it can be a fun setting. Maybe I'll dig it out again and see what I can find...


Alas, it was not stated, not that I remember anyway.
It's probably just the 'ole memory again, but fairly sure that it was mentioned with reference to the "aethyr gods." It's been a while, though.


Contrivances? Come on Kage, you have actual interaction on the physical plane and the Blackstone Fortresses being created by something that can't directly be a part of the Materium?
Yep. I reiterate that it is not necessary... or necessarily necessary. :D Regardless of their origins--which admittedly solves the technical knowledge part--to "participate" in the material realm they need only adopt an avatar; a daimon. Not only would this be consistent with the 'fluff' on the matter of warp entities manifesting (with the admitted hazy ground of energy-demanding full phsyical manifestation), it gives some sense of gravitas and loss to the loss of the houses of Eldanesh and Ulthanesh. They lost the favoured "avatars..." rather than the individuals who could snap their fingers and make the Gods appear. (Okay, it might have been a bit more than "snapping their fingers." :D)

That you might prefer to see it as the "god" popping back into the matterium is perfectly fine. I just don't see it as necessary and prefer to view it otherwise. And the fun thing is that it works just as well (in my mind a whole lot better) than accepting the gods bouncing back and forth between the matterium an the immaterium.


I guess it depends how much creedence you place on the Eldar myths as being "Myth" and "Oral History" (I lean towards the latter, obviously).
And I the former.


I hadn't thought of that - very nice. Makes a good bit of sense!
It also makes the Tears of Isha a bit more fun... But I guess that depends on how you view the gods (myth/oral history) as to how much fun it can be. :D

Kage

Hellebore
22-02-2010, 14:37
But he was. As I've said in the other thread, the Cabal referred to Four Properties of Primordial Annihilator with no hint that there used to be only Three just two hundred years prior. The Laer civilisation was built on Slaanesh worship and it didn't seem like a new thing. Then there was the Slaaneshi Daemon Prince Shaha Gaathon in "Farseer" who had his/her/its hands in causing the Fall.

Yet the eldar reincarnated before slannesh was born and can't afterwards. Their souls do not survive the warp any more, rather than 'never did'. And the warp god of lust has existed forever because it's one of the core emotions, but slannesh specifically has not. The eldar were only adversely affected by the warp god of lust AFTER slannesh's birth.

Also, Slannesh's birth has a definitive realspace date, ~30,000AD. If timelessness exteneded into realspace as well, then the eye of terror should have always existed.

No, 40k has never shown this 'timelessness' within realspace. The warp yes, but realspace no. The god toodlepip from the year 50 trillion when it is the most powerful of all warp entities is not conquering the universe before he 'existed' within realspace.

Khorne did not 'exist' in realspace when the old ones fought the necrons. In fact the necron codex specifically states that the warp was calm and without daemon when the old ones first appeared which contradicts even the concept that 'timelessness' is inherent to the warp as well.

In addition, Warp travel is far more reliable than 'timelessness' would predict. If the warp was truly timeless then ANY jump through it would have an equal chance of appearing at any point in the timeline of the universe.

EDIT: As we have precedent for different 'facets' of the 4 core god types and as the most recent faces of them are only ~40,000 years old in realspace the daemon prince we see in farseer is merely a daemonic personification of lust that has been turned towards the 'face' of slannesh from whatever it was before that. That or, as is also precedent, the formation of the god had it starting to produce physical results. The emperor is doing the same thing in the current timeline and his god form is far less well developed.

I'm sorry, I don't normally disagree with you but in this case there is nothing in 40k that actually holds the argument together as everything that should, contradicts it instead. Warp travel and the eye of terror are the only things I need to support this argument. They prove that the timelessness of the warp does not cross over into realspace and as timelessness is a definitive infinite it only needs to be disproved once for it to be incorrect.

Hellebore

Inquisitor Engel
22-02-2010, 18:13
Could a simple explanation of the "timelessness" of Chaos be that it's timeless as far as an individual with psychic potential can see peering back into the history of the Warp - It's simply that pervasive that even the most powerful psykers are unable to separate the undeniable truth of history (as presented by MvS, with some alterations of course ;)) and the truth of Chaos, pervasive as it is within the Warp.

Idaan
22-02-2010, 18:41
Yet the eldar reincarnated before slannesh was born and can't afterwards. Their souls do not survive the warp any more, rather than 'never did'. And the warp god of lust has existed forever because it's one of the core emotions, but slannesh specifically has not. The eldar were only adversely affected by the warp god of lust AFTER slannesh's birth.

Also, Slannesh's birth has a definitive realspace date, ~30,000AD. If timelessness exteneded into realspace as well, then the eye of terror should have always existed.

I was pointing to the fact that Slaanesh has always existed, not that he always was a post-Fall Eldar god, or at least a god with an appetite for Eldar souls.

And I have a theory that can explain the seeming contradiction. In WD127 it says that the Eldar have long prophecied the coming of Lord of Pleasure and that some of them were consciously worshipping him to awaken him, but most of the society ignored this as fables.

So what if the Eldar created Slaanesh on purpose, to make a god closer to their new civilisation than the old gods? The WiH pantheon has grown more and more distant after "Asuryan's Barrier" was put in place and it's unclear whether the Eldar could contact them without "Tears of Isha" (or whatever device they stand for in the myth). Their post-singularity society didn't need Khaine as they didn't know war, didn't need Isha as they didn't grow crops and didn't need Morai-heg as they already knew everything. A god dedicated to art, beauty and self-expression, their main pursuits - now that's something different!

I suppose that they knew of the relation between four main vortices of Chaos and their own gods, that Khaine was connected (not necessarily the same) to Khorne etc. So they decided to harness the vortex of Pleasure for their own needs, to create a benevolent god of happiness and fulfilment. What they did underestimate however was the "vicious circle" of their own emotions and worship coming to them via Warp-feedback. A good metaphore would be putting a microphone close to a speaker - the static intensifies until it becomes unbearable. The rest is history.

Long story short, the Eldar wanted to bolt an Eldar "face" onto pre-existing potential, in their hubris thinking that it would serve them and grant them all kinds of gifts. They didn't create Slaanesh as a whole, they created his/her/its current incarnation.

Same with humans really: the Dark Ages didn't create Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle, they created lesser aspects of pre-existing entities that became dominant as Humanity itself became the dominant race in the galaxy. This is also an answer to the question why, for example Nurgle was created by Black Death and not the (arguably more destructive) plague that hit Mediterranean in 6th century and why his attributes are exclusively Western vision of Death: it was the Western culture that dominated the world and spread across the stars. It's still a bit offensive, but at least logical.

Hope that it makes sense.

EDIT: Damn, I started writing this when your edit wasn't there. It seems that we agree once again and it's just a matter of terminology and differentiation between basic potentials and their "facets". I used the name "Slaanesh" for the basic potential of Lust, while you seem to use that name only for it's post-Fall, Eldar-created aspect.

LordLucan
22-02-2010, 20:11
This is a thread of beauty MvS! A truly brilliant fan resource.

I have only three issues:

1) You history implies that as soon as the C'tan come into being, they make the Necrontyr into necrons. They do not. The nightbrigner starts killing then as soon as he was born, but the Necorntyr managed to stop him killing them all, by explaining their was an entire universe of life energies to consume beyond their world. The Necrontyr are eventually aided with FTL by the C'tan, which was their main weakness against the Old Ones. This took many millennia. Then the Deceiver tricks them into becoming Necrons.

2) The Nightbringer was in the Necrontyr's star to begin with. This is what made their star so horrible and unstable. I don't really see where the old one causing the instability comes from source-wise.

3) The Old Ones were not just the Slaan. The Eldar codex says there were multiple races making up the collective 'Old Ones'. This may be further supported in the HH book Legion.

Idaan
22-02-2010, 21:24
But the third point wasn't true in 2005 when MvS wrote it. The new Eldar codex came out in 2006. And the Cabal in "Legion" is more of a successor to the Old Ones: they refer to themselves as Old Kinds, and it seems the Eldar looked down on them, which kind of implies that the former weren't the creators of the latter.

DapperAnarchist
22-02-2010, 22:18
The second point did stick out to me though... Again, divide by ten, and you explain why a C'Tan moving into their star affected them badly, rather than being something to evolve around (that, or C'Tan have some particular effect...)

LordLucan
22-02-2010, 23:21
Idaan: Yes, but I assumed that his fan history wasn't fixed, and could be updated... :)

Oh and I wasn't referring to the Old kinds. I was referring to the First Kind, the ones that came before the Old Kinds, who they seem to hold in awe in the book.

LordLucan
22-02-2010, 23:27
The second point did stick out to me though... Again, divide by ten, and you explain why a C'Tan moving into their star affected them badly, rather than being something to evolve around (that, or C'Tan have some particular effect...)

Sorry I don't understand what you mean here.

C'tan do shorten the lives of stars massively by feeding on them. What if the nightbringer caused the star to start to run out of hydrogen fuel early, thus expanding their star, and making life slowly become more and more intolerable for successive necrontyr generations.

What if the Necrontyr simply didn't evolve useful random mutaitons, and they were, actually dying out (hence why they were relying desperately upon technology to help them escape their death trap planet). Also, we don't know how necorntyr biology functions, only that they were tumour-ridden and wasted.

Inquisitor Engel
23-02-2010, 00:14
3) The Old Ones were not just the Slaan. The Eldar codex says there were multiple races making up the collective 'Old Ones'. This may be further supported in the HH book Legion.

Err... yes they are. :eyebrows:

The Cabal is NOT the Slann or the Old Ones, which are two interchangeable terms for the same (and have been for some time in the canon). The Cabal are a group of races that were brought together with a common purpose, probably to fill the role the Old Ones/Slann had at fighting Chaos, which probably gave them all a massive headache.

Idaan
23-02-2010, 09:30
Created by technologies once taught to the Eldar by the races known as the Old Ones
They are a coalition of races now.

MvS
23-02-2010, 14:44
Hellebore: I think you make some excellent points there on timelessness and Realspace. Really interesting.

Lord Lucan: Each 'segment' of the history covers a large epoch of time (thousands or even millions of years) within which the stated events happen. So the C'tan don't have to be seen as jumping right in with the mass binge-eating.

2. The reference the the Old Ones blighting the Necrontyr was an attempt to rationalise why the Necrontyr never ever adapted to their environment through billennia of evolution nor yet never died out (although, to be fair, we don't know when the C'tan started consuming the star so we don't know how long it took for the Necrontyr to become a benighted species because of it).

Also, the Necrontyr continued to be a benighted race even after their technology advanced to a degree where one might expect them to be able to treat their terrible disfigurements - or, at least, when they colonised other star systems one might expect them to slowly 'recover' from the harsh radiation of their own star. None of these seems to be the case, so other than say 'the writers didn't think of this' I wanted to come up with a rationale.

I didn't say how the Old Ones blighted the star of the Necrontyr homeworld, so we could imagine that they might have drawn the star parasite that later become known as The Nightbringer to the Necrontyr sun. But you're correct that this needs to be addressed.

I think I'll change it to the Slann finding the already blighted race of the Necrontyr, because of the C'tan consuming their sun, but that the Slann monkeyed with Necrontyr DNA, or maybe worked some Warp mojo on them, so that no matter what they did they would never be able to alleviate their cancers and other problems inherent in their species.

4. This was a relatively new idea that wasn't around when I first wrote the history. The Old Ones used to just refer to the Slann, hence my emphasis. I'm still of mixed feelings about it to be honest. I quite like the idea of many races reaching this 'transcendent' state where they become like gods, but then again I also like the idea of 'First Ones', a species/civilisation that arose first and that produced the first, and possibly the greatest scientist-sorcerer types.

I'd be very interested in more discsussion around this topic though to develop some rounded ideas. Inquisitor Engel and Hellebore have really got me thinking about this with a fresh mind, so to speak. :)

I'll edit the history from time to time as new ideas and critiques arise.

MvS
23-02-2010, 15:05
I've tweaked the part about the Slann's influence on the Necrontyr. See what you think.

Fingol23
23-02-2010, 16:29
The other major sticking point in this now is your theory on Khain, Vaul and the Dragon. I really liked the idea unfortunatly mechanicum has now contradicted it. This could possibly be corrected by having Khaine throw the Dragon to Earth where he gets beaten a second tiem by the Emperor. Just an idea though.

And secondly thank you very much for writting this it was a great read.

Inquisitor Engel
23-02-2010, 17:24
The other major sticking point in this now is your theory on Khain, Vaul and the Dragon. I really liked the idea unfortunatly mechanicum has now contradicted it. This could possibly be corrected by having Khaine throw the Dragon to Earth where he gets beaten a second tiem by the Emperor. Just an idea though.


"With his necrondemis and essence weakened and ship severely damaged by the effects of the few collected Talismans of Vaul, The Dragon (Do we have an Eldar name for it? I can't recall. Kaelis-Ra sound way cooler than Nightbringer.) sought refuge on the nearest planet to recuperate. The crash landing of the ship on an utterly insignificant little blue-green planet far out in the uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable end of the western spiral arm of the galaxy.

The resulting crash and destruction of The Dragon's ship and the eventual fallout from the event resulted in the Eocene Extinction event. The Dragon crawls into a vast cavern and waits for the dominant species on the planet to reach a point of evolution necessary to disseminate his mechanical mind and ideas to."

Just a first draft there. Ties the Dragon into an extinction event that occurred roughly 55-60 MYA (although making it responsible for the K-T boundary event would be cool, it would place its crash side in Panama and not somewhere in Europe) so it didn't settle softly and likely had a good deal to do with the evolutionary niche that Primates were able to move into at the time. (It's been a LONG time since I did evolution and paleontology, so if I'm completely off the mark here, just shoot me down in flames).

I rather like the idea insinuated in Mechanicum that The Dragon is fiercely intelligent, probably able to plan an think through its own plans to a much better and more thorough degree than Nightbringer (though probably not The Deceiver). He's very smart, though perhaps not particularly cunning.

And back to Hellebore:


Also, Slannesh's birth has a definitive realspace date, ~30,000AD. If timelessness exteneded into realspace as well, then the eye of terror should have always existed.

Indeed. An excellent point.


No, 40k has never shown this 'timelessness' within realspace. The warp yes, but realspace no. The god toodlepip from the year 50 trillion when it is the most powerful of all warp entities is not conquering the universe before he 'existed' within realspace.

So how can we rationalize this with the below? Though "time flows differently in the Warp" it still FLOWS, which is something we find a problem with in ascribing the "it has always been and always shall be" with the descriptions of the calm Warp prior to (I would imagine) the Ork, Eldar et al propagations.


I'm sorry, I don't normally disagree with you but in this case there is nothing in 40k that actually holds the argument together as everything that should, contradicts it instead. Warp travel and the eye of terror are the only things I need to support this argument. They prove that the timelessness of the warp does not cross over into realspace and as timelessness is a definitive infinite it only needs to be disproved once for it to be incorrect.

Solid point there.

In addition to my "Chaos wants you to think that" theory posited on the previous page I'd like say that we know there's, supposedly, an end-point to the Chaos Gods, either through the Star Child (omnipotent, 3rd-person background and therefore untainted by the bias inherent in "in-universe" stuff) or Ynnead (slightly less so) and in order for something to have an end, it must also have a beginning.

I think it might be a safe bet to say that Chaos can SEE the entirety of the warp's history simultaneously but can only interact with those points at which they already existed in some form or fashion as themselves (ergo, Khorne cannot influence Eldanesh to become a servant of the Throne of Skulls just because he initially gets along with Khaine because the time, Khaine was a separate entity entirely)

Thoughts?

Idaan
23-02-2010, 17:57
4. This was a relatively new idea that wasn't around when I first wrote the history. The Old Ones used to just refer to the Slann, hence my emphasis. I'm still of mixed feelings about it to be honest. I quite like the idea of many races reaching this 'transcendent' state where they become like gods, but then again I also like the idea of 'First Ones', a species/civilisation that arose first and that produced the first, and possibly the greatest scientist-sorcerer types.

I'd be very interested in more discsussion around this topic though to develop some rounded ideas. Inquisitor Engel and Hellebore have really got me thinking about this with a fresh mind, so to speak. :)

I'll edit the history from time to time as new ideas and critiques arise.
I like the change a lot, as it is something that I've envisioned ever since I've read Codex: Necron. As I came into 40k after 3e, the C'tan didn't seem shoehorned to me and the Slann were something different than Old Ones (or just one of their races), judging by the small picture in 4e rulebook.
What I've envisioned though was a coalition not of races, but of powerful individuals. Basically, what if not only Mankind had its God-Emperor? What if many races had exceptional psykers of power some order of magnitude larger than others? These individuals would also be great leaders and scientific geniuses, especially in the field of genetic engineering? Then we'd have a group whose abilities matched these of the Old Ones: psychic mastery, immortality, seeding the universe with life, engineering of warrior races. And the Old Ones have always been presented more as diverse group of individuals, especially with them becoming/being basis for/creating the Eldar pantheon.

LordLucan
23-02-2010, 18:57
Idaan: That is a really cool idea. The Old Ones do not seem like a singular consciousness or race to me in the fluff. I picture them having different objectives and goals (perhaps even there own pet projects? I'm thinking of how Qah tampered with the Hrud in order to hide them from the mirror-Devils, seemingly on his own)

Also, in this history, what do you think is the origin of Cegorach? I see him more as an ascended old one, rather than a warp god creation of the young races.

Idaan
23-02-2010, 19:42
Well, as I'm also a Necron fan, I tip the hat to the theory that he began as a charade by the Deceiver. That doesn't mean however that he still is only a diversion: the worship of the Eldar had to go somewhere, so now there is a real Cegorach, just like the Eldar envisioned him and he's a mortal enemy of the Necrons, much to Deceiver's chagrin.

That doesn't rule out your version though - maybe the Deceiver's exploits inspired an Old One to fight fire with fire, to start his own psychological warfare? After his "ascension" he just went on with this idea.


Damn, it seems that I'm now leaking out most of the ideas I've had for a timeline made to follow from where MvS' WiH timeline ended and up to the rise of the Eldar Empire one million of years ago, while incorporating the Cabal and apocalyptic wars only alluded to in "Legion". Guess I'll never get down to writing it out of general laziness.

LordLucan
23-02-2010, 20:11
I always thought the Jackal God and the Laughing god were actually distinct.

Well, I believe the Laughing God is the creator of the Thyrrus ( no real evidence here, I just think this as they seem to be a race of natural born performers), and influenced the Tau's devleopment, through developing ethereals (through the agency of the harlequins).

I am a Mirror-devil fan too Idaan incidentally. Also, the Hrud have cool names for things...


That doesn't rule out your version though - maybe the Deceiver's exploits inspired an Old One to fight fire with fire, to start his own psychological warfare? After his "ascension" he just went on with this idea.

I like the idea of the Deceiver and Laughing God both impersonating each other throughout history, thus blurring the lines immensely.


MvS: I love how your concept sof the WiH have multiple conniving facitons, blurring the battle lines delightfully.

Lord Asgul
23-02-2010, 23:35
Threadomancy, sometimes a good thing. Especially in this thread :). I believe what MvS has done is write possibly the single best thread on Warseer ever. And I think it is also nice to see everyone carrying on the discussion on this thread even though it is 5 years old.

Hellebore
24-02-2010, 00:36
I think it might be a safe bet to say that Chaos can SEE the entirety of the warp's history simultaneously but can only interact with those points at which they already existed in some form or fashion as themselves (ergo, Khorne cannot influence Eldanesh to become a servant of the Throne of Skulls just because he initially gets along with Khaine because the time, Khaine was a separate entity entirely)

Thoughts?

This is pretty much the only way I can rationalise it.

That is, Khorne exists within a state of timelessness in the warp. He has always and never existed. He sees everything and nothing at the same time. He decides to tweak a realspace entity by reaching out of the warp. No matter at what point in 'time' in the warp he does this relative to realspace his 'hand' always comes out in a set realspace timeframe following realspace cause and effect (so after he was 'born' and during the lifetime of the target).

Slannesh might be able to see eldar souls from before he was 'born', but he cannot interact with them because 'relative to the soul' he doesn't exist yet.

Ok, there might be a better explanation. Timelessness is relative (which in and of itself is funny). Relative to an eldar from 60 million years ago the lust entity Slannesh doesn't exist and therefore cannot affect them.

Sort of like being out of phase with reality. You could I suppose float through the warp and see whispy images of gods to come and gods that were but be incapable of actually interacting with them. Ghosts of relativity.

You can find some of my thoughts on the intervening time between the war in heaven and more modern events here:
http://darkreign40k.com/forum/index.php?topic=1761.0

I know not everyone likes the 60 million year date but I like it for no other reason than it allows for a huge sandpit to play in (as you can see by the above link). It's not that I don't like 40k as is, but I do dislike the Imperiocentric, marinecentric view GW has. The setting is not defined by humans and there is 60 million years of interesting stories without humans to explore. It also allows for far more fan freedom.

Hellebore

Iracundus
24-02-2010, 01:40
I take the whole "timelessness" thing to be hyperbole from GW in an attempt to make things more "deep". The problems with time travel or any form of messing with time in created universes is the problem of messing with causality, and creating loops, paradoxes, or otherwise rendering things nonsensical. If all causality is rendered meaningless and nothing can be explained, then the universe starts to fall apart in terms of any coherent story or setting.

If an entity is "timeless" yet unable to interact with anything before when it existed in realspace, instead of constructing complicated metaphysical theories to try and plug the spotted discrepancy, it would be easier and more likely under Occam's Razor to simply do away with the whole catchphrase of "timelessness". After all, if it cannot interact at all or be interacted with from before its birth in realspace, then it for all intents and purposes does not exist, and if it fits criteria for nonexistence, then just say it didn't exist.

I'm just reminded of the Ptolemaic model of the universe and how people constructed ever more elaborate "quick fix" theories to patch holes or discrepancies in the model, when the far simpler Copernican model did away with all those tottering jury rigged patches while explaining everything in an altogether more coherent way.

Hellebore
24-02-2010, 01:44
I've no problem with it not being 'timeless', the above was simply an attempt to reconcile it if people require everything to work together.

EDIT: Given the recent trends in codex writing I've generally stopped even trying to reconcile things and have simply created a narvhal dump bin for pointless retconns or dumb new background.

It seems like the current GW writing direction has been taking lessons from the Michael Bay school of writing.

Actually, in some ways I think it would be cool for time to take on a different quality within the warp, making it analogous to a different realworld force. Say, gravity. Time gets 'weaker' the further away from an emotive concept and stronger the closer it is. Something like that. The sky is a sad avocado sort of thing.



Hellebore

sabreu
24-02-2010, 05:08
Small tidbit, but I believe the timelessness described for the warp is valid, just not to the entities that inhabit it nor the realm in it's entirety. I like to think there are "time holes" in the warp, like they are black holes in the materium. Anomalies we can't fully understand, that do occur. It would explain why an ork warboss can be hurled into the past, only to kill his former self for a shoota, but the chaos gods can't just reach into the past and eliminate their competition. They might actually fear getting near those time holes, because they might end up in a time they can't sustain them selves. Similar to how tzzeentch threw his demon into that well of knowledge, because he feared it would destroy him.

Inquisitor Engel
24-02-2010, 05:10
Actually, in some ways I think it would be cool for time to take on a different quality within the warp, making it analogous to a different realworld force. Say, gravity. Time gets 'weaker' the further away from an emotive concept and stronger the closer it is. Something like that. The sky is a sad avocado sort of thing.


That would be cool, and would explain why ships would have to drop out of warp further away from planets/systems. Not because of the actual gravity well (although there still would be one, but much, much smaller) but because dropping out of the warp closer to a given planet causes greater and unpredictable distortions in time, relative to what the ship perceives.

I like it.

Plus you can have the random discovery of new, uninhabited worlds by ships dropping out in areas of "safe" space and go "Whoa, new planet!"

malika
24-02-2010, 06:31
Sorry for the short post, but what interests me in this discussion is how the Cabal (that group of aliens who contacted the Alpha Legion before the Horus Heresy) fit in here...

LordLucan
24-02-2010, 20:17
The Cabal seem to be remnants of the Old Ones' allies in the War in heaven, who have taken it upon themselves to try and reverse the effects of chaos, and hence 'win' the war in heaven (which I'm not convinced ever really ended).

LordLucan
24-02-2010, 20:28
Actually, in some ways I think it would be cool for time to take on a different quality within the warp, making it analogous to a different realworld force. Say, gravity. Time gets 'weaker' the further away from an emotive concept and stronger the closer it is. Something like that. The sky is a sad avocado sort of thing.



Hellebore

That is a cool way to look at it. I see the 'deep' (ie, more mental and formless) warp to be not timeless, but instead to have every thought and feeling in existence being felt at the same time. However, the closer the warp gets to reality, the more reality 'corrupts' the warp, imposing restrictions upon it which it doesn't usually have. Eventually, in reality itself, the warp has to obey causation to a certain extent (thought not always. See 'desert Raiders' and 'The Voice' for warp causal weirdness).

Chaos cannot effect reality until it exists. However, in the warp, it has always existed. Yet, why does chaos not exist when the warp is calm at the begining of the universe? I would argue that it does actually exist at that time. However, at that point, the warp is very, very boring. No life, no emotion. Then the old ones turn up, and chaos has to hide. it doesn't want to reveal itself as malevolent at that early stage, as it might inspire the Old Ones to attempt to destroy chaos before it is born. Chaos HAS to let events unfold as they do. They win in the end after all.

Inquisitor Engel
24-02-2010, 20:44
The Cabal seem to be remnants of the Old Ones' allies in the War in heaven, who have taken it upon themselves to try and reverse the effects of chaos, and hence 'win' the war in heaven (which I'm not convinced ever really ended).

But the war in heaven had nothing to do with Chaos - it was the Eldar Gods versus the C'tan (or the Necrontyr versus the Slann/Old Ones) Chaos came about as a side effect OF the War in Heaven.

Horus_Lupercal
24-02-2010, 20:57
chaos is on the side of the eldar, with out chaos there would of been no khain or vaul with out chaos they would of lost the war early on, or mybe im confusing chaos with the warp... either way i say the necrons got more to worry about when it comes to chaos than the eldar do if the fight ever escalates again.

LordLucan
24-02-2010, 22:30
But the war in heaven had nothing to do with Chaos - it was the Eldar Gods versus the C'tan (or the Necrontyr versus the Slann/Old Ones) Chaos came about as a side effect OF the War in Heaven.

Precisely.

The Old Ones lost the war in heaven because they lost control of the warp, which destroyed their empire.

If chaos is stopped before it is started, the old ones never lose control of the warp, and they can finally defeat the C'tan once and for all.

Also, all I was saying was what the Cabal believe. They don't have all the info like we do remember.

LordLucan
24-02-2010, 22:32
chaos is on the side of the eldar, with out chaos there would of been no khain or vaul with out chaos they would of lost the war early on, or mybe im confusing chaos with the warp...

Without chaos, the warp never becomes a churning maelstrom of nightmares, and th eold ones don't lose.


either way i say the necrons got more to worry about when it comes to chaos than the eldar do if the fight ever escalates again.

Chaos is a threat to all sides. It is THE big bad of 40K.

Inquisitor Engel
25-02-2010, 05:51
The Old Ones lost the war in heaven because they lost control of the warp, which destroyed their empire.


I'd argue that despite "losing their empire" (Which we don't have a timeline on, by the way, the fall of the Old Ones may have been gradual, ceded control to the Eldar as time went on and they proved themselves worthy successors) I'd say the Old Ones/Slann WON the War in Heaven against the Necrontyr pretty convincingly.

The C'tan went from thousands perhaps to just four, one of which was critically wounded, two others driven mad with hunger or utterly insane and the other sent into hiding. The ENTIRE NECRONTYR RACE went into hibernation and left everyone alone for more than 60 million years.

In contrast, the Old Ones/Slann lost... no one. The Eldar Gods remained intact as far as we know. I'm sure it wasn't pretty on either side but really... The Old Ones/Slann won that one. Even if you take the side that the Necrontyr made a "tactical withdrawal" and now they're back, that's like living in 1939 and saying the Germans won WWI because they started another war 20 years later.

MvS
25-02-2010, 14:01
I really like Hellebore's idea about time being the 'gravity' of the Warp.

Mind you, I also like the idea of the 'layers' of the Warp put forward by Kage (although the two can be blended I think). So the 'layer' closest to Realspace is the part through which that the Tau 'skim'. The next layer is the layer through which 'normal' Warp travel is possible, although things like time and distance can become pliable and odd. At even 'deeper' levels even weirder things happen.

I like to view those parts of the Warp 'furthest' from Realspace, and perhaps farthest the constructs within the Warp that have formed because of leakage from Realspace, as being infinite and completely unrealised potential for anything, but not actually anything in itself. I view it as the ultimate reagent that becomes something (possibly anything)as soon as you approach it or enter it - a bit like the raw chaos described by Michael Moorcock.

So, for me, the 'deepest' part of the Warp is 'pure' unlimited potential for creation, untainted by emotions, ideas or anything else. It would have no time in and of itself, but has the potential to encapsulate, generate and touch time at any point or magnitude.

I view the Warp as not being a separate universe from Realspace so much as being part of the same 'whole' on an infinite spectrum. So at one end of the spectrum we have Fully Realised and Actual Reality and at the far other end of the spectrum we have the Completely Unrealised and Potential Reality.

The further one travels from the unrealised end to the realised end, the more certain things become. Laws apply, objects and measureble systems exist and we are essentially in what we call Realspace. The further we travel in the other direction, away from the Realised, the less certainties there are and the more flexibility there is for new and temporary 'rules' of space, time, probability and so on.

In this model we could never truly enter the Pure (or Absolute) Warp, because by merit of the fact that we are approaching it, trying to perceive it and so on, we actually create new realities and certainties. As the Pure Warp is infinite and unrealised potential (so I like to imagine) you could never use it up either. It is the seeming impossibility of true Nothing, and as absolutely anything is more likely than absolutely nothing, even thoughts, dreams and flights of fancy are more 'real' than the 'Nothing' of the Pure Warp's infinite unrealised potential.

In Realspace 'absolutely anything' is not more certain than absolute nothing, because we have laws and rules and exisiting possibilities in Realspace that influence and even dictate the shape of other possibilities, even abstract ones. But the further we get away from Realspace through the medium we call the Warp, the less the 'Nothing' that is the infinite unrealised potential of the Warp is controlled directly by the certainties of Realspace and the more it can be filled by a wider and wider string of possibilities that may actually be impossible were we to view them from Realspace - hence gods, daemons, time travel, emotions as tangible objects, nightmares and entities and all the weird horror of random broiling chaos.

So whereas the potential for all the Chaos Gods and every other thing in all of the universe exists within the Pure or Absolute Warp (along with the potential for infinite other possibilities as well), the 'actual' physical reality of gods does not and may never. However, once something becomes even slightly more 'real', or fractionally more than Absolute Nothing, it may start to drift across the Warp spectrum from unrealised potential towards total, fully realised and actual 'realness'.

Very unlikely things that may flick into partial or notional existence deep in the Warp may not last long, but if things like this are sentient or can grasp a modicum of control of their environment they may be able to 'swim' closer to the 'surface' of the Warp spectrum where it becomes more and more 'real' and fully manifested. To do this it would need to latch on to debris from the surface of the Warp Spectrum - from Realspace.

At first this debris may only be very intangible and hardly 'real' echoes of realness that are vague thoughts and forgotten dreams, but in time it may be able to grab something more substantial that it can use to either 'float' higher towards reality or that may even 'tow' it up into reality. Hence mortals and Realspace are so important to the partially 'unreal' entities of Chaos. Without links, ropes, finger holds and guiding lights from reality, the entities of the Warp are adrift within a broiling mass of possibility that starts to unravel and fray and become more and more unlikely and impossible the deeper they sink. Religion, belief and faith becomes as important to Warp entities as souls and emotions, because these all serve to bring the largely unreal and uncertain entity closer to things in reality and make the entity more certain in and of itself.

For me this ties in with the ideas of identity for the gods. A Warp vortex comprising of feelings of anger may have existed within the 'medium' levels of the Warp for millions of years, and the potential for self awareness, purpose, identity and even a name for that vortex may have been a bare possibility deeper in the infinite unrealised potential of the Absolute Warp, but the reality of these two merging together as one didn't arise until there was enough pressure and 'leakage' from Realspace to drag up the possibility of Khorne and make him/it more actual (rather than just potential or notional).

So the more mortals and and other entities in Realspace perceive as real the idea they call 'Khorne the Chaos God of Rage; The Blood God; The Daemon Lord of War' the more 'leakage' and debris from Realspace Khorne has to grasp onto to pull himself further and further towards being real - towards Realspace.

Acquiring a temporal existence of some sort, however tenuous, is an important element in this process, because without personal time, entities in the Warp cannot interact properly (or perhaps at all) with Realspace, which is completely suffused by time and largely dependent upon it.

So the closer we get to Realspace the more time there is and the more this time obeys predictable laws of cause and effect. The deeper one goes into the Warp, the further one goes from the linear certainties of Realspace and the less one experiences time as cause and effect. There may be 'gravitational fields' of time of time exuding from the partially realised 'things' in the Warp, like the Chaos Gods, but because these entities exist quite far away from Realspace, the personal time they exude and are encapsulated by is less predictable or bound by linear cause and effect.

Okay, I'm being thrown out of my computer room. Must dash!

EDIT:

I found a new computer so have been editing various errors from the above. :)

Philip S
25-02-2010, 14:15
I went with an idea that the warp is the reverse of the material universe, so gravity is a powerful matter repulsor and the shadow of stars in the shallows of the warp push ships away (my explanation of the warp zone and the 'age of sail'). Idea become manifest in energy, and matter can not form. More on my take of the Physics of the Warp (http://philipsibbering.com/WH40KRP/40K_7_AM_9_Physcis.shtml).

The theory yields four distinct states: the black hole as the ultimate materium state (the 'god a law' if you will) > with the materium as we know it > the warp > and the void or 'Infinity' where everything exists all at once and at the same time (the core of a mulit-verse, and my way to explain the linking of the various warhammer universes).

Philip

LordLucan
25-02-2010, 19:54
I'd argue that despite "losing their empire" (Which we don't have a timeline on, by the way, the fall of the Old Ones may have been gradual, ceded control to the Eldar as time went on and they proved themselves worthy successors) I'd say the Old Ones/Slann WON the War in Heaven against the Necrontyr pretty convincingly.

The C'tan went from thousands perhaps to just four, one of which was critically wounded, two others driven mad with hunger or utterly insane and the other sent into hiding. The ENTIRE NECRONTYR RACE went into hibernation and left everyone alone for more than 60 million years.

In contrast, the Old Ones/Slann lost... no one. The Eldar Gods remained intact as far as we know. I'm sure it wasn't pretty on either side but really... The Old Ones/Slann won that one. Even if you take the side that the Necrontyr made a "tactical withdrawal" and now they're back, that's like living in 1939 and saying the Germans won WWI because they started another war 20 years later.

And then the warp unleashed horrific monstrosities, that killed the majority of all life in the galaxy. The C'tan went into stasis because everything was dying, and hence life would become boring for them.

Said monstrosities were created in the cauldron of misery that was the war in heaven.

My idea is that the Cabal are trying to in-universe retcon chaos out of existence. Thus, the warp never gets out of control, and the slanni never lose their empire to the enslaver plague and the warp. They simply win the war.

Inquisitor Engel
25-02-2010, 23:32
*Snip*

I've sort of imagined this being the case - the Eye of Terror being a leak between that "medium" space and the first layer, bypassing the way the Tau move through space (ergo the Tau would be unable to navigate through the Warp the closer to the Eye they get).

I like it.

I also like the obvious parallels between the Warp and Quantum Physics. The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle makes a great, great parallel, by observing things, we change them and this "Deep Warp's" change and the nature of the warp in general is that IN THE EXTREME (Yell it, like you're a crazy extreme sports person!).

I hereby dub it, for purposes of discussion here and for any future background material you may write - "The Von Staufer Uncertainty Theorem." :D

Kage2020
26-02-2010, 01:24
Mind you, I also like the idea of the 'layers' of the Warp put forward by Kage (although the two can be blended I think).
Indeed, they can. Admittedly the "layered warp" model focuses more on "reality," but it would be interesting to see just to what extent they could be blended for the betterment of both. :D


So the 'layer' closest to Realspace is the part through which that the Tau 'skim'. The next layer is the layer through which 'normal' Warp travel is possible, although things like time and distance can become pliable and odd. At even 'deeper' levels even weirder things happen.
That's pretty much how I handled the Tau "skim drive" since I'm not an overt fan of the idea that every race has to have its own form of FTL drive. Thus, the Tau stick to the "shallows" where the laws of "reality" are at their greatest conjunction.


I like to view those parts of the Warp 'furthest' from Realspace, or perhaps the constructs within the Warp that have formed because of leakage from Realspace, as being infinite and completely unrealised potential for anything, but not actually anything in itself. I view it as the ultimate reagent that becomes something (possibly anything)as soon as you approach it or enter it - a bit like the raw chaos described by Michael Moorcock.
Aye, I think that I have something similar. The Depths of the warp increase in unreality until you reach a singularity point that is the deepest unravelling where nightmares are born in consensual (or the subconscious) reality of sapient beings.

It's a bit "Mage the Ascension," for those familiar with that RPG, but on the bright side the "layered warp" was articulated before I had read that particular supplement. On the other hand, some of the concepts of the Tellurian might have subsequently fed back into it. Regardless, I still like it. :D

Kage

Master Jeridian
26-02-2010, 01:40
I am suitably impressed by that timeline, a great piece of work.

I'm particularly fascinated in the 'greyness' it brings to the Necron and Old Ones as species.
Current fluff the Old Ones are the 'good gods' nurturing life like the galaxy is their garden and lesser species are their children- I really like your idea that they exist on a dimensional plane so above ours that our worlds are mere petri dishes.

Current fluff has the Necrons/C'tan as evil killer robots, destroying for the joy of destroying- out of jealousy- I really like your idea that the Old Ones manipulated the Necrontyr species for experimentation, they simply could not comprehend why or how the 'bacteria' in that particular petri dish would become powerful enough to try to kill them.


Another major fluff disconnect you gave a plausible answer for is the Eldar longevity.
We have fluff explaining the Eldar fought for the Old Ones millions of years ago.
We have fluff explaining the galaxy fell apart.
We have fluff saying the Eldar ruled the galaxy thousands of years ago.
It didn't make sense- either the Eldar of old became extinct (which they clearly didn't) or in those millions of years they would have advanced to Old One like power.
Having their own 'dark ages' brought on by the collapse of the Old Ones was a genius move.


Perversely the only parts I wasn't so eager on where the humans.

Is there any proof the Old Ones manipulated humans? I can buy the story that the Old Ones seeded Earth with bacterial life- the first sparks, but purely as part of their petri dish experiments, purely to observe species.
But the Old Ones are gone long before humans evolve- the idea that the Old Ones 'programmed' humans to be created is a huge glaring error in evolution. Thousands of possible different events, climate changes, asteroid impacts, etc could have changed Earth, and thousands of other species may have risen to sentience (or far more likely none).

Species like the Krork and Eldar seem to have been purposely designed by the Old Ones as warrior castes, I doubt the Old Ones seeded a world with bacteria and waited for the Krork or Eldar to 'spontaneously evolve' with predesigned genetic strengths. They purposely designed them- first the Eldar to be psychic warriors with long-lives, advanced intelligence. When this proved problematic, the Krork where designed with short lives, low intelligence but an in-built eco-system and ridiculous resilience (I'm still convinced the 'Brain Boyz' the Orks say died out to illness where the Old Ones consumed by Enslavers).

Considering it's pretty clear humans evolved on Earth, and geologically very, very recently, with millions of year where completely different types of life dominated- I prefer humans to be the unexpected winner. When the dust settled, they where one of the seeded worlds that spawned a sentient and persistent advancing species.

The angry space god knocking the asteroid into the dinosaurs made me cringe a little.
Again, not every historical event has to have a malevolent mastermind behind it- the Necron Codex has more than enough 'Secretly, the C'tan shot Kennedy' moments.
It just seemed so shoe-horned to give a nod to real-life, and so overused in sci-fi.
As with human evolution, the death of the dinosaur should still be chalked-up to humans just being the winning species in the lottery of the universe.
If it didn't happen on Earth, it'd happen on some other planet. Humanities ego is big enough without the idea they where created to save the universe- it's fittingly humbling to know it was sheer dumb luck, much like it was humbling to realise our planet revolved around the Sun, not the other way around.

The final human manipulation is the C'Tan Pariah curse- it's hard to deny this one as the Necron Codex threw up a huge number of 'Oh, BTW, the C'tan did that too' moments.
Can we be sure the Pariah gene wasn't added some time in the future? In the dark age of technology humanity spread across the stars, human technology was at it's peak- and I have no doubt the science of genetics would be far more advanced than it is now, or in the Imperium. Genetically altering humans would be easy, heck I'd argue the humans of the Imperium would all have descended from ancestors that had been in some way altered or engineered.

Engineering a strain of human DNA that has a null effect on the humans psychic emanences in the Warp would be at the pinnacle of genetic and Warp sciences....and could have been influenced by an enigmatic boss with a penchant for eating souls.

I really don't like the idea that an ancient C'tan that had fought galactic wars against inter-dimensional gods wandered down to Earth to fight the Emperor on horseback only to be beat up with a lance and somehow the two of them go to Mars to lock him up. Considering the scales of power and technology involved its a Calgar moment. There's just so much wrong with it- the timelines are completely out (Dragon going to sleep millions of year ago...not in the Middle Ages), the ridiculous coincidence that the Necrons renowned for choosing dead systems to hibernate would sleep on a world with life-supporting properties (ancient Mars) next to a bigger world with the greater potential for life)...it's just, no.
A better plot would have been seeing the Emperor some time during the Dark Age of Technology leading the armies (by another guise) of humanity to fight their rebellious self-aware robot serfs that had been manipulated by a re-awakened Dragon (he was the artificer C'tan after all). It would still require Calgar levels of ridiculous for the Emperor to somehow defeat and then trap the Dragon but he would have had the best technology humanity could wield and it would have been a fascinating glimpse of the pre-Crusade human empire and the war between man and machine.

For my part, your timeline has made me eager for more- in particular the human history from 2k to 30k. The Gold Man and the Iron Man? The rise of the machine, the techno-wars. The first galactic human empire. The invention of STC.

On the Cabal or Elder Races, I'd argue they where the coalition of 'lesser races' after the Old Ones and C'tan dissappeared.
Perhaps they are even younger (the time involved is huge, think about it- humanity hasn't existed for even 1 million years, let alone hundreds of millions), forming some time after the Enslavers died down, perhaps in the time just before the Eldar regained dominance. Sort of a UN to the US.

ColonalKlink
26-02-2010, 04:34
... the Big E fighting the dragon, well what dont C'tan like? the warp/psychic powers? what is the Big E
the most powerfull psyker ever?(appart from maybe the old ones) seems perfectly fine to me, also how did it get to mars? SM libs can warp gate very short distances, so the Big E could possibly do the same but much greater distances, how were the tunnels built to house the dragon? simple they were not.
the Big E teleports the dragon to mars and traps it underground useing psi energy, many many years later humanity gets to mars, finds an odd energy reading and starts an archeological dig, bad stuff ensues, area is then quarenteened(sp) earth empire falls appart, mars devolves into superstition, quarenteeded area becomes "here be dragons" type of area full of stories and superstition, later becomes "do not go here or else" area and is eventually forgoten as people who knew about it die

Master Jeridian
26-02-2010, 18:04
I'm not sure your getting the scale of 40k right.

The Emperor is the most powerful human psyker ever, when your looking at the Old Ones and C'tan, that makes him the biggest most powerful ant in the anthill near your city.

ColonalKlink
26-02-2010, 18:30
i know of no fluff that states ANY alien psyker was more powerful? now i could be wrong, but the chain of events i describe could be plausible, it is after all a theory

Master Jeridian
26-02-2010, 18:54
The glaring fault in the story is that the Dragon and other C'Tan fell into hibernation millions of years before the Emperor, or any human for that matter, where even born.

Ignoring that.

The current 40k setting is Imperial-centric, based from the human point of view. So the greatest human psyker is seen as god-like from the human soldier POV, against the majority of common threats (Orks, humans, lesser alien empires) he is a god-like warrior.

But the myths of the Old Ones and the C'tan are a 'level higher' than the Emperor, Primarchs, etc. They are are far more ancient and far more powerful threat in the universe, if the Emperor could slap around C'tan with ease in medieval Europe, he'd have cleared out their Tomb Worlds during the Great Crusade.

Equally, if a near omnipotent stargod that had devoured untold billions and thousands of worlds for millions of years came to Earth, I think there'd be far more damage and memory of it than the George and the Dragon myth.


Your idea of the 'here be dragons' and the forgotten disaster of the past on Mars has merit.

ColonalKlink
26-02-2010, 20:39
cheers master jeridan, hopefully as the HH series fleshes out the Big E we may get some insight into exactly how powerfull he really was

Kage2020
26-02-2010, 20:44
I have my doubts that they're ever going to quantitatively define the Emperor's powers and abilities. The last power that he showed was "laying of hands" on machines. :rolleyes:

As soon as they define the powers of the Emperor, I would imagine that people are going to begin to question his divinity, which is not a good thing given the way that the current 'fluff' is presented. :D

Kage

Inquisitor Engel
26-02-2010, 21:07
They are are far more ancient and far more powerful threat in the universe, if the Emperor could slap around C'tan with ease in medieval Europe, he'd have cleared out their Tomb Worlds during the Great Crusade.

Equally, if a near omnipotent stargod that had devoured untold billions and thousands of worlds for millions of years came to Earth, I think there'd be far more damage and memory of it than the George and the Dragon myth.


I think you're looking at it on too-simple a scale here - The Dragon was (and likely still is) incredibly weak, though being incredibly weak for a C'tan would be impossible to kill for any normal human being - a psychic being such as the Emperor probably could bitch-slap it around in its weakened state.

Likewise, if the Dragon settled on Earth at a major extinction even (as I alluded to above) either the K-T Boundary event or one of the smaller, later ones and then went to sleep, it's unlikely he would ever have done any damage other than basic "Rawr, sacrifice to me!" Remember he got hit in the face by some Blackstone Fortresses before going into hibrnation. If Nightbringer and the Outsider were both utterly immobile during theirs, it stands to reason that the Dragon was the same.

Plus if it did the same thing it did to the Adepts of Mars once they got there, it could likely explain the adoption of tools by early Sapiens and subsequent explosion of technology and brain evolution. (Unfortunately I guess this puts on the "The C'Tan did it!" coat, which I abhor, but eh, not the end of the world)

Remember the Great Crusade was about unifying the disparate elements of humanity, not colonizing new worlds - The Tomb Worlds are generally dead worlds, usually lacking any civilization whatsoever. First off, there was simply no reason for the Emperor to lead the Great Crusade there.

There's also the distinct possibility that the Emperor simply doesn't know anything about the C'tan or the Slann or really the details of the War in Heaven, all of which occurred before he even existed - though the Emperor knows and studied a lot, all knowledge of the War in Heaven is in one place - The Black Library and you can bet considering how happy the Eldar were about the Emperor building an Imperial Webway, they sure as hell didn't let him in there.

Even the Eldar who did see the Emperor (and those who speak to everyone about it now) aren't very forthcoming about the details, likely because they DON'T KNOW anything other than what the Myths say.

Hellebore
27-02-2010, 01:44
I think you're looking at it on too-simple a scale here - The Dragon was (and likely still is) incredibly weak, though being incredibly weak for a C'tan would be impossible to kill for any normal human being - a psychic being such as the Emperor probably could bitch-slap it around in its weakened state.

Likewise, if the Dragon settled on Earth at a major extinction even (as I alluded to above) either the K-T Boundary event or one of the smaller, later ones and then went to sleep, it's unlikely he would ever have done any damage other than basic "Rawr, sacrifice to me!" Remember he got hit in the face by some Blackstone Fortresses before going into hibrnation. If Nightbringer and the Outsider were both utterly immobile during theirs, it stands to reason that the Dragon was the same.

Plus if it did the same thing it did to the Adepts of Mars once they got there, it could likely explain the adoption of tools by early Sapiens and subsequent explosion of technology and brain evolution. (Unfortunately I guess this puts on the "The C'Tan did it!" coat, which I abhor, but eh, not the end of the world)

Remember the Great Crusade was about unifying the disparate elements of humanity, not colonizing new worlds - The Tomb Worlds are generally dead worlds, usually lacking any civilization whatsoever. First off, there was simply no reason for the Emperor to lead the Great Crusade there.

There's also the distinct possibility that the Emperor simply doesn't know anything about the C'tan or the Slann or really the details of the War in Heaven, all of which occurred before he even existed - though the Emperor knows and studied a lot, all knowledge of the War in Heaven is in one place - The Black Library and you can bet considering how happy the Eldar were about the Emperor building an Imperial Webway, they sure as hell didn't let him in there.

Even the Eldar who did see the Emperor (and those who speak to everyone about it now) aren't very forthcoming about the details, likely because they DON'T KNOW anything other than what the Myths say.


I find the whole dragon on earth thing was pathetically contrived. I mean, REALLY pathetically contrived. It's not clever or smart it's just silly. The K/T extinction was hardly post apocalyptic. There were still plenty of trees and plants and animals.

It's not like the c'tan could show up on earth look around and ACCIDENTALLY assume the planet was devoid of life. He'd have to go there, set up shop and deliberately ignore all the life around him.

All the while ignoring the dozen other planets/moons with literally NO life on them that would be much better suited to hide on.

I take that story as the worst kind of shoehorning. I recall the gnashing of teeth when the c'tan seemed to be everywhere, but I liked the rational of them being the yngir of eldar myth. It was a nice slot to fill. But this is just silly.

Better by far to have the emperor never encounter the dragon (it's psychically blank, how's he going to find it? The necrons are masters of psychic shielding, he could be living on the c'tan's head and not know), or if he absolutely HAS TO (for the same reason that space marines absolutely HAVE TO defeat everything) then he does so on Mars and throws it to the ground where he believes it destroyed (or is called away on some emergency).

Think Dr. Manhattan on Mars. Maybe he went there for some solitude.

Hellebore

Inquisitor Engel
27-02-2010, 03:23
*Snip*

I agree, it's contrived, but it's a fact of background we have to live with and adjust to. My assumption on the Dragon is that unlike the other C'tan he ENJOYS have sentient life around him to influence.

*shrug*

Best I got for you. Probably utterly wrong and meh, but I'm nothing if not a fan of compromise between what GW says is fact and what we know to be contrived and annoying. ;)

ColonalKlink
27-02-2010, 07:49
ok correct me if im wrong, couldnt the Big E see possible futures? maybe he saw a future where the Dragon awoke on earth and... well killed everything, so he pre-empted this by finding where it was dormant and then slaped it around while it was weak, also as to why it was there.. i can think of 2 reasons

1: It looked for a planet where life was NOT sentient so the enslaver plague would not come there, BUT the lifeforms would become sentient, giving it a readily available foodsource when it awoke, thus allowing to gain enough power to move to Sol and eat it... yum yum

2:it was so badly hurt during the War (only fools and horses accent) that it "crashed" hence dinodilaplods die out, over the following millions of years it is SLOWLY recovering only to be jumped by a dude with a big knife on a stick (lance) who somehow knows where he was kipping

Idaan
27-02-2010, 14:01
I think that if they intended for the Dragon to settle on Earth or even allowed that possibility they would have noted that. Right now it says:


Their machine slaves and Necron warriors would guard them while they slept on worlds purged of all life to keep the Enslavers from their door. Only when they were disturbed by a sentient race with the correct characteristics to be mastered and consumed would the star vampires emerge.

Just two of the C'tan have emerged from their tombs to plague the galaxy thus far.
One of the four not doing this is quite a big exception to not be mentioned. And then you have the bit about just two awakening thus far. And the fact that "Mechanicum" EXPLICITLY SAYS THAT THE VISION IS NOT TO BE TAKEN LITERALLY.

Note however that I'm not against the Emperor pwning the Dragon's butt. I got pretty used to Xenos gods being punching bags for guys with fists larger than their heads. It's just that either
a) it happened on Mars sometime in/after DaoT
or
b) the Emperor fought part of the disembodied essence of the sleeping Dragon that fled through the cracks of its prison and wandered the Solar system freely, returning to its pre-necrodermis state. I mean "dead Dragon lies dreaming in his home in Noctis Labyrinthus", Cthulhu fhtagn-style.

Otherwise it's just as retarded as narvhals, only without the stupid spelling.

N0-1_H3r3
27-02-2010, 16:38
I agree, it's contrived, but it's a fact of background we have to live with and adjust to. My assumption on the Dragon is that unlike the other C'tan he ENJOYS have sentient life around him to influence.
Thing is, we know that the C'Tan enjoy being worshipped as gods - their background says so - and while their followers are characterised by an abject loathing for all living things, the C'Tan don't seem to share that trait. While we don't know when or where Deceiver woke, and Outsider remains dormant, we know that Nightbringer wasn't dormant on a dead world either - Pavonis did, afterall, have a sizeable human population.

DapperAnarchist
27-02-2010, 16:51
Could what the Emperor encountered on Earth have been a "splinter" of the Dragon? I mean, he gets slapped into Mars pretty hard, shatters, and some of the splinters end up on Earth - with the risk that some of them are still around on other world, lurking under the ice of Europa and the like...

Hellebore
27-02-2010, 22:23
Thing is, we know that the C'Tan enjoy being worshipped as gods - their background says so - and while their followers are characterised by an abject loathing for all living things, the C'Tan don't seem to share that trait. While we don't know when or where Deceiver woke, and Outsider remains dormant, we know that Nightbringer wasn't dormant on a dead world either - Pavonis did, afterall, have a sizeable human population.

Sure, but humanity didn't inhabit the planet 60 million years ago when the nightbringer went to sleep. I can't remember the details but I get the impression that Pavonis was once a maiden world so it would fit that the nightbringer found a barren planet and then some tens of millions of years later the eldar terraformed it from orbit and left. Humans taking up residence only recently.

Earth on the other hand has never been barren during the 40k timeline.

Part of the problem with this is the 'fake prophecy=real event' concept running through 40k. We are supposedly given subjective 'maybes' about things but then it's either later presented as objective fact or the fan community takes it as fact.

Hellebore

ColonalKlink
28-02-2010, 01:32
any thoughts on my explanation?

Soratris
28-02-2010, 08:43
Somehow I feel I've read this before but I don't thin you mentioned the necrons retreat in it or did I miss a part? Although now we know what killed the dinosaurs.

ColonalKlink
28-02-2010, 23:43
the dragon crashing into the earth? lol

Inquisitor Engel
01-03-2010, 02:14
Somehow I feel I've read this before but I don't thin you mentioned the necrons retreat in it or did I miss a part? Although now we know what killed the dinosaurs.

The thread is nearly 3 years old... it's very VERY likely you've already read it. :p

ColonalKlink
01-03-2010, 07:18
3 years old... damn! i didnt even notice lol

also we now know why the imperium never encountered the Clangers....

Thats right the Dragon ate the Clangers...

LordLucan
01-03-2010, 14:57
I thought the dragon only ate soup? ;)

MvS
01-03-2010, 15:35
Bearing in mind that the 'George and the Dragon' image has been co-opted to form part of the Emperor's back-story and bring the C'tan into his timeline, I don't think it should be ignored.

I agree that it is a bit of a shoe-horn though and there have been pages and pages of speculation and ideas thrown around on Warseer trying to explain / justify a) why the C'tan known as The Dragon was on Earth in the first place, b) how the Emperor actually managed to defeat it, and, c) how the Emperor managed to bind it on Mars where other imagery said it was already trapped / sleeping.

My view is that the George and the Dragon myth was just too tempting for the author in question to ignore and he put it into his story because it seemed cool. Not a bad reason, but it does raise problems. The vision wasn't central or even important to the plotting of Mechanicum, it was just an aside of sorts, and it was couched in the standard "barely remembered history shrouded in legend shrouded in myth and seen only partially through the mind's eye" safety net.

But it's there and it's 'canon' insofar as that means anything, so what to do?

We could ask for Graham to appear on the thread and give some insight for us to sink our teeth into (that would be cool). In the absence of that though, I would go with a sort Cthulhu approach, mentioned previously. So the Dragon wasn't necessarily walking around on Earth in order to have an influence there of some sort.

Of all the C'tan the Dragon seems to be engaged with the Warp most of all. I say this because whereas the Deceiver is trying to cut off contact between mortals in Realspace and the Warp (the Great Work and the Pylons of Cadia or whatever), the Dragon seems to be associated / connected with Akashic Readers (introduced in the Mechanicum novel).

Perhaps in order to better combat the Warp's manifestations and those who harness its powers (or perhaps in order to trap and weaken him) the Dragon somehow became associated with hideously complex and arcane technologies that could tap into the Warp and translate some of its contents into images or otherwise 'readable' data - those things that have been referred to as Akashic Readers.

Akasha is a Sanskrit term and, to quote from the ever ubiquitous Wikipedia, refers to the "omnipresent incontrovertible transcendent eternal source of all energy" and is a realm or 'plane' of "promise, potential, paths to be walked" and the primal source of all things. It is also made up of infinite dimensions comprising all possibilities of movement, physical, temporal and 'spiritual'.

This is pretty much what I like to imagine the Warp to be in the 40K imagery, so in many senses I like the tie in.

But how and when would the Dragon have become connected with such marvellous items of 'Warp-tech'? I would prefer to imagine that the connection between the Akashic Readers and the Dragon is not coincidental. Perhaps the Dragon had an interest in co-opting the Readers to serve his purposes, perhaps to divine the intentions and movements of his enemies, or perhaps to just gain more power and knowledge than any other being. A C'tan who could read the Warp would be a terrible adversary indeed - perhaps the most dangerous entity imaginable, certainly within Realspace.

Perhaps the Dragon chose Mars as its resting place because some of this technology was already there. Perhaps one of the ancient civilisations that were spawned by the Old Ones, or perhaps even comprised the Old Ones, was either native to Mars (and the C'tan consumed them) or had some sort of outpost on Mars which was abandoned or captured by the Dragon.

Or perhaps the Akashic Reader on Mars was co-opted by others (Old Ones, Eldar) to form part of the Dragon's prison. Perhaps knowing that a C'tan could eventually escape any prison created from even the most advanced sciences of Realspace, the Dragon's enemies managed to hook him up to the Akashic Reader on Mars, which, a bit like the Golden Throne of Terra, acts as a kind of bridge between Realspace and 'elsewhere', only where the Golden Throne hooks up to the Webway, the Mars Akashic Reader hooks in straight to the Warp, thereby creating a bubble of energy around the Dragon that he cannot truly fathom or control. Or maybe the Akashic Reader also hooked into the Webway, but for some reason that section of the Webway was destroyed either as part of an imprisoning process or because the Dragon was seeking to force and entry into the Webway without any knowledge of what he was doing.

Whatever the case, whether the Dragon was deliberately connected to the Akashic Reader in order to imprison him or whether he uncovered it himself and tried to blast his way through (so to speak) but by doing so destroyed the protection of the Webway only to trap him in a bubble of Warp, like an insect trapped in amber, the fact that he is connected to the Reader may give an insight into how he can whisper in people's minds (unlike other C'tan it seems) and how he could have an influence on Earth (re. the George vs. dragon / Emperor vs. C'tan) myth.

If the Akashic Reader is somehow transmitting the thoughts or dreams of the Dragon who is trapped within it (upon it, alongside it, whatever) along with various bits and bobs of information straight from the Warp itself, it might not be such a leap to suggest that his dreams and nightmares, mixed with some evil warp mojo leaked through to the Golden Throne, or the arcane device that was adapted into the Golden Throne on Terra.

This Cthulhu-like dreaming could have taken form into a literal dragon, or at least some sort of unpleasant beastie, that the Emperor eventually faced and 'smote'. This would could then give a lead as to how he found out about the Golden Throne and the threat of the thing trapped deep beneath the surface of Mars.

If the Emperor can follow psychic spoor (which I would assume he can) or indeed traces of leaked Warp, perhaps while 'smiting' the dragon he sensed where it came from - the Golden Throne 'door' that was a sort of twin to the Akashic Reader on Mars. By psychically following the trail of this 'dragon' emanation back to its source, the Emperor may have found the Golden Throne buried beneath the Himalayas and thereby its 'twin' on Mars.

This would have been an eye-opener for the Emperor, because I doubt up until that moment he would have been aware, necessarily, of the C'tan and the civilisations they spawned / controlled / hated / feared / fought against / destroyed, etc, etc.

It turns out that there is much, much more to be worried about in the galaxy than just the emanations of Chaos.

So through the Golden Throne let's say the Emperor laid various wards and seals upon the leaky Akashic Reader of Mars to the best of his abilities, thereby cutting off the dreams, nightmares and desires of the Dragon that it was unintentionally transmitting. This event might also have spurred the Emperor into upping his game and shifting his plans, even more aware now of the many, close and multifaceted threats facing humanity - but also the opportunities open to humanity to spread beyond its cradle on Earth.

Perhaps in the Emperor's mind the situation stopped being "Emperor vs. Chaos in order to save humanity" and became "Emperor vs. Chaos vs. Millions Of Alien Civilisations With Amazing Technology And Warp Powers That Not Even He Understands But Could Maybe Turn To His Benefit In Time"

From then on he ups the ante from simply trying to encourage humanity towards 'enlightenment' and unity and gradually starts throwing more effort into scientific advancement than ever before in his long lifetime.

Thoughts?

MvS
01-03-2010, 17:09
By the by, what are the community's thoughts on the idea of 'Old Ones' being the 'ascended' super-beings of various pre-historic civilisations - so as the Emperor is to humanity, so these entities could be to their own species.

This is a very Chaosim Cthulhu way of doing things, where the Old Ones are just as described above - the most powerful members of various truly ancient (and alien) civilisations who as individuals have arisen to almost or actual demigod status, with incredible 'supernatural' powers, insight into and power over the hidden processes and horrors of Creation, and invariably worshipped by the non 'ascended' creatures of their own species and many others besides.

With this model - which indeed seems to be the one favoured by luminaries like Gav Thorpe - you could have Slann 'Old Ones' (in fact, the 'ascended' Slann might well be the most powerful of the Old Ones, just as Cthulhu Himself seems to be the most powerful of the Old Ones present in the Lovecraftian mythos) as well as K'nib Old Ones, Rashan 'Old Ones', Krork 'Old Ones' and perhaps even Jokaero and Eldar 'Old Ones', along with any number of other 'Old Ones' from other species yet to be explored in the imagery.

Like the Old Ones of Cthulhu mythology, these Warp saturated and godlike entities could have each influenced / tampered with / ruled over / fought against multiple races and civilisations, sometimes working together, sometimes working against each other, and formed the basis of the many gods and religions of the Eldar, K'nib and Orks, etc.

Of course this would separate them from the pure Warp formations that are the Chaos Gods, which is different situation from what I suggest in the timeline, where the Eldar gods are Warp vortices that are elements of, or progenitors of, the much 'larger' and more powerful Warp Vortices that one day become the Chaos Gods.

This, again, is similar to the Lovecraft imagery where the Old Ones are of much lesser status and power to the 'true' gods of the universe, like the insane but all-powerful broiling Chaos that is Azathoth.

So perhaps we could say Isha = Emperor-like 'ascended' Old One of some race or another, where Tzeentch = raw Chaos energy not rooted in Realspace but given identity and sentience within the Warp...?

That said, there's no reason we can't suggest that some Old Ones grew and grew in power until they became Something Else, or that some of them were essentially 'drowned' and consumed by the Vortices forming in the Warp, and that this drowning and consuming helped give these blind and non-sensate vortices specific identities and forms. So Slaanesh consumes the Eldar Gods at his birth, perhaps turning them into his Keepers of Secrets, while becoming a beautiful but decadent aesthete like the corrupted Pre-Fall Eldar were.

Or perhaps we could say that the Old One known to and worshipped by the Eldar and K'nib as Khaine the Bloody Handed himself 'fed' the Warp Vortex of rage and the lust for violence much more powerfully, quickly and directly than many millions of lesser mortals, unintentionally pushing elements of his own identity upon that Warp Vortex and inching it towards self-awareness as Khorne - hence the many similarities between Khaine and Khorne.

I haven't settled on all these ideas, but you can see the sorts of ideas the multiple Old One image can throw up.

Any thoughts?

Idaan
01-03-2010, 18:29
That's exactly what my idea of them was! Check reply #111. Basically, in my interpretation they were the Emperor-level beings of other races. Though the Old One-created races didn't have their own Old Ones - whether by conscious design or because the mystery of "ascending" was lost to them, there weren't any Eldar, K'nib or Rashan Old Ones. It's possible though that there might have been some OOs of previous generation that took special interest in these races, similar to how Qah nurtured Hrud above all races.

Xisor
01-03-2010, 23:53
If I can jump in on the 'George and the Dragon' aspect; it's extremely overt in Mechanicum that McNeil is riffing on 'Lovecraftian' ideas. Take that to its logical extreme (Call of C'tan) and I think it's safe to say that the Emperor didn't fight a physical instantiation of the Dragon, rather likely a 'stars are almost right' C'tan Fhtagn event. E.g. the Dragon was 'dreaming' and only a sliver or tendril (i.e. a 'weak' C'tan) was encountered.

Given the absolutely (and literally) astronomical nature of the C'tan (and the devoid-of-life seeming state of Mars), I'm very happy to suppose that the Dragon was (and still with Mechanicum was) always on Mars, just that he was able to 'reach out by dreams' as far as Earth.

I really don't see trouble with this; it's the same thoughts I had in the closing of 2008, and it's the same now. Not much 'alternatives' really add a more satisfactory situation, for me.

Also, Idaan & MvS; I too concur on that. Though the 'Brain Boyz' coulda been Krork who ascended to be OOs. I'm wary of a generational approach as, IMO, it doesn't work as 'organically' with the massively chronological overlap inherent in the very idea of the Old Ones. (Millions of years, only the C'tan were actually on their 'timescale'. Even the Eldar and Necrons don't quite handle it...)

Hellebore
02-03-2010, 00:43
The problem I can see with the ascended superbeing types is that:

A) The emperor was created by a very primitive society. If humanity, a low psi value race, can do this when they are still rock throwing primitives then the eldar should have done it before they were born (in utero).

B) If Humanity could create an ascended being, then that ability couldn't have been 'cut off' from other races because it should logically affect all of them.


I can completely accept the emperor fighting some kind of Dragon apparition and in fact would much prefer that to the literal interpretation. I was only (vehemiently) disagreeing with the 1 dimensional literal translation.

Hellebore

Inquisitor Engel
02-03-2010, 03:48
I think keeping the Slann/Old Ones as one race is simple for a number of logical reasons:

Even if you accept the idea that Emperor is not a singular, god-like being, created from a terrible shared vision of the future of an entire race's 'psonically-active' individuals and that the incidence is not unique (an idea which I think undermines the very nature of the 40k narrative which, like it or not, is human-centric) there's a giant logical fallacy in the way:

The idea of multiple races creating a group of ascended beings independently of one another can be argued for on the same basis of intelligent life period - if it can occur spontaneously on one world, it can occur spontaneously on multiple worlds (arguably, it's occurred at least twice here on Earth, in primates and cetaceans, but that's a debate for another day) and so all of those intelligent races must have had the opportunity to create ascended being such as the Emperor.

Easy right? Not so fast.

However to think that there would have been a large enough number of races, all sufficiently advanced to create a super-race of ascended being that THEN coordinated themselves into something where they could both manipulate other races AND fight a war... THIS strains credulity.

On top of that, the Necron Codex states pretty explicitly that the Necrontyr and the Old Ones were the first sentient races in the galaxy and the syntax and tone indicates that the writer (who is an omnipotent GW writer, not an in-universe source) is referring to two separate races and two races only.

Xisor
02-03-2010, 09:48
Thrones. The thrones permit ascension, of various forms.

The Emperor, IMO, was not anywhere near as powerful as he is nowadays until he encountered the likes of the Thrones. The Golden Throne of Terra is a 'relic' of Vaul. Same with the 'designs' on the Akashic Reader from Mechanicum and the fragmented stuff from Faith and Fire which go to building the Silver Throne.

It's a stretch, but pinning the Thrones as something which 'makes an Old One' explains why not-everyone can do it and still preserves the Emperor's uniqueness. He's not 'just' an Old One.

Also, Engel, you've got the timeline wrong.

The large number of races can start as one. Then, say, after a million years or two of interfering and 'intellectual mingling' across the galaxy, any number of races can feasibly be involved. So the 'superrace' isn't a 'superrace', more like a ... Justic League. Or an Old Boys club. Some members from the same family, but not necessarily all.

And I think calling the Old Ones 'coordinated' is a massive oversimplification and, perhaps, anthropomorphisation. The metaphysics of 40k relies alot on 'so stuff happened' rather than 'it happened because it was actually preplanned precisely'. Especially when the warp is pure plotonium, the coincidence of the Old Ones can be the effect, not the cause.

(I.e. the pantheon would be quite disparate, actually, not necessarily acting in unison. Alot like the C'tan, in a sense.)

Anyway, Slann as first Old Ones raises no problem for me. Whether Old Ones came from other species isn't a problem for me, it just makes a bit more sense considering the timescale...(millions and millions, not thousands and thousands.)

LordLucan
02-03-2010, 21:57
I like the idea Xisor. I have always supported your thrones theories, and I came up with a similar ascended old ones theory to yours at one point I believe. It would also explain why some cultures had different gods added to their pantheons (like Qah, who seems preoccupied with Hrud, just as Isha seems preoccupied with Eldar. It's interesting that Qah isn't in the Eldar pantheon. Perhaps it demonstrates the disunity of the Old Ones, and also that perhaps some young races rejected certain old ones as being true gods?).

Also, what do we make of the Yngir being described as 'demi-gods' in the Eldar codex? Is it just a throwaway line? I thought so, but then I thought 'Old One RaceS' was a throwaway line in the same codex, and it turned out not to be at all.

I like your theories, because it brings a pleasant level of anarchy to the War in heaven. It seems to be an insane eternal war, where the sides and factions in the conflict are constantly changing as the aeons pass.

Also, I would argue the War in Heaven never ended. 40K seems to be more like the 'Cold War' of the War in Heaven.

Inquisitor Engel
03-03-2010, 00:04
(like Qah, who seems preoccupied with Hrud, just as Isha seems preoccupied with Eldar. It's interesting that Qah isn't in the Eldar pantheon. Perhaps it demonstrates the disunity of the Old Ones, and also that perhaps some young races rejected certain old ones as being true gods?).

Who says Qah isn't in the Eldar pantheon? The "Room of the Gods" in 'Farseer' has literally THOUSANDS of masks in it, each representing an individual, different Eldar god.

Idaan
03-03-2010, 12:56
Also, what do we make of the Yngir being described as 'demi-gods' in the Eldar codex? Is it just a throwaway line? I thought so, but then I thought 'Old One RaceS' was a throwaway line in the same codex, and it turned out not to be at all.

It was the first mention of Yngir in 3e Craftworld Codex, just as the gates of Varl were the first mention of C'tan. I believe that they were meant to be Jotuns/Gigantes to the Eldar Gods' Aesir/Olympians in a recreation of Gigantomachia. A footnote. And probably still are in the Eldar myths - the Eldar didn't seem to be aware of the C'tan being a major side in the War in Heaven during the height of their Empire.


Who says Qah isn't in the Eldar pantheon? The "Room of the Gods" in 'Farseer' has literally THOUSANDS of masks in it, each representing an individual, different Eldar god.Well he certainly isn't one of the major gods. For the Hrud he was pretty much their only god after they were abandoned by all others.

LordLucan
03-03-2010, 18:23
Who says Qah isn't in the Eldar pantheon? The "Room of the Gods" in 'Farseer' has literally THOUSANDS of masks in it, each representing an individual, different Eldar god.

Well, Xenology says he is the only god in the Hrud pantheon which the hrud do not share with the Eldar. He seems unique to the Hrud.

Xisor
03-03-2010, 18:26
I'm still lingering under the belief that Qah is Khaine. I really need to reread Xenology (it can wait 'til after finishing A Thousand Sons) and figure this out.

I think the 'anarchic' look on the War in Heaven works nicely. With modern things like the Emperor trying to break into the webway and a lot of the 'ambiguity' about the Primarchs, I think we get a look at 40k being 'the latest chapter', but also a singularly interesting one. One wonders just how significant/unevolved the previous chapters were, if it is true that no-one in hundreds of millions of years of akashic-imprinting had ever tried something remotely like the Primarchs before?

The flipside, of course, is that it's just not that well thought out, that folks haven't considered all the implications. I know I haven't. But I *am* rather enjoying A Thousand Sons!

LordLucan
03-03-2010, 18:36
Qah is the Penumbra surely? Also, he doesn't seem furious enough to be khaine to me.

Xisor
03-03-2010, 18:55
Khaine's also murder and martial discipline. And 'Umbra', not Penumbra. The Umbra's 'linger' thing linked 'em, as I recall. As I say, I really need to revisit the book. I wrote up a little bit for an online play-by-post RPG which had the players' psyker encounter an Umbra. Lots of slashing shadows, lots of visions of hate and murder. (Actually, the site I use for it is a bit of a 'lifeboat' from the BLP forums, a few 'noteables' are hanging around on it.)

If I've went and got the wrong god (again), I'll be mighty peeved and red-faced (rather than red[bloody]-handed)!

Inquisitor Engel
03-03-2010, 21:10
Well, Xenology says he is the only god in the Hrud pantheon which the hrud do not share with the Eldar. He seems unique to the Hrud.

Yes but the Eldar had significantly more contact with the Old Ones/Slann/Eldar Gods than the Hrud ever did - perhaps he was the only one that stuck around with the Hrud, in isolation...

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

LordLucan
03-03-2010, 23:23
True very true Engel. I simply prefer the more anarchic model is all.

808thMyrmidons
03-03-2010, 23:45
dude. you spend too much time on this

LordLucan
03-03-2010, 23:52
Its his time to be fair, so his decision what he does... ;)

Inquisitor Engel
04-03-2010, 04:23
dude. you spend too much time on this

When he did it, it was IIRC his job. :shifty:

Idaan
04-03-2010, 11:47
I'm still lingering under the belief that Qah is Khaine. I really need to reread Xenology (it can wait 'til after finishing A Thousand Sons) and figure this out.

They were both "split" by Slaanesh during the Fall, but that's all. And why would Slaanesh do that to Qah is beyond me - they weren't linked by the Eldar psyche.
Now the "Xenology" says that Qah was with the Hrud in flesh, not as a warp god at least until 500 000 years ago. And the murals in Hrud city Ralei visited show a "bloody handed wargod" as a figure distinct from Qah.

MvS
04-03-2010, 12:30
dude. you spend too much time on this
What can I say? I almost never watch TV, I type quickly and have had strict time-management drummed into me for pretty much all my adult life. ;)

But yes, as Engel said, all of the stuff at the start of this thread was adapted from the copious notes I wrote while doing freelance writing work. I'd hoped to write some stories or more books before BLP and I parted company, but in the absence of that I just wrote up my notes and screen-dumped on the old Portent forum.

On topic, I'll be posting some more stuff over the weekend.

ColonalKlink
04-03-2010, 21:44
you left BL? hope its not rude but, why?

I thought the Liber books were a very adult and inteligent series of books, i found them very interesting from a psychological standpoint, even useing one as a basis for my degree (nurgle, dispair etc.)
seriously well done mate, you had a hand in getting me my pschology degree... now if only i could learn to spell proper lol

Inquisitor Engel
05-03-2010, 05:09
On topic, I'll be posting some more stuff over the weekend.

Excellent! I look forward to wasting time at work. :D I shall be sending you a PM tomorrow morning as well regarding... An idea.

Idaan
05-03-2010, 11:21
On topic, I'll be posting some more stuff over the weekend.

And here I am, for the first time wanting the weekend to end faster. :D

Xisor
05-03-2010, 16:05
Graham McNeil agrees with me! [/lies]

Well, the Golden Throne is a found item useful for working with the webway, not an integral component or even an Emperor-made creation. I'm strongly betting on my 'Thrones of the Old Ones versus the Halo Devices of the C'tancrons' theory. There's lots of rubble ('well placed weapons'?) left lying around and as others mentioned: 40k could be a 'decisive cold war' stage of the War in Heaven.

But enough of that. I too am eager to the weekend to finish in light of all this!

Hellebore
05-03-2010, 16:10
So what was the emperor before he found a throne? Or was he born 'through' a throne when the shamans all died? Afterall you'd think they'd be able to detect such a psychically potent object.

Then you have to ask who invented the thrones, why would a throne that somehow manipulates the webway have anything to do with turning you into an old one etc.

I'm not a massive fan of the idea myself. It seems too contrived and I've discovered a rather intense dislike of contrivance. The old ones to me seem to be a spiritually powerful race that lacked chaotic emotions that would disrupt the warp allowing them to tap into its power with a greater level of finese and skill than the modern world.

Hellebore

Xisor
05-03-2010, 16:26
The Webway and the Old One/Eldar God Cegorach.

Then there's the Silver Throne in Faith & Fire. And the Golden Throne/Akashic Reader in Mechanicum. And the Ork Throne in Headhunted.

The Old Ones were certain members of many species. The (Old Ones who were)Slann were the Eldar Gods.

The Emperor, prior to the Thrones, was 'just a psyker'. The most magnificent, perhaps, but just a psyker 'gifted/boosted' by the input of the sacrifices of the Shamans.

Also in my (highly convoluted and quite conceited) view, the fragmentary 'essence/remains' of Vaul also go into the influencing of the shamans to sacrifice themselves, binding a fragment of Vaul into the body which is now the Emperor. (Think Cthulhu again.)

Who invented the thrones? Originally? Well, I'd say the pre-Old One races (Slann?) who went on to become Old Ones. Remember the scales of time; Old Ones, Necrons and C'tan have whole buckets of millions of years on the 'non created' races. It relies on the Old Ones ascended from Old Kind (or whoever) model, but that's beside the point too. It can fit multiple ways.

And how did the Shamans not detect the psychically potent throne? Well, it's not the throne itself that's potent, it's what it does. Maybe the shamans used the throne? (Just like Jesus invented the chair...)

Idaan
05-03-2010, 16:27
the Halo Devices of the C'tancrons' theory

The Halo Device in RT introductory adventure works on Warp-power though. And I'm not a fan of shoehorning the existing races into each and every bit of the fluff. Dark Heresy is great because it creates its own villains and xenos, and terribly enjoyable at that - Yu'vath being the best for me.

Other than that, I like your idea, it's just that it's better to leave the Halo Devices out of that.

Hellebore
05-03-2010, 16:30
I'm just not a fan of the emperor finding his +5 Throne and leveling up. It just seems lame to me. Sorry.

I'm also unsure as to how he became an old one and was still as weak as portrayed. Horus wasn't THAT awesome. Yes a primarch (which is an over inflated concept anyway) blessed by the powers of chaos. So a bit more powerful than Abaddon who occupies the same position.

But I don't really see old ones being that easily defeated. Or really as flawed as the emperor was.

EDIT: The old ones had perfected psychic engineering and manipulation yet the emperor couldn't even get into the webway without the aid (somehow) of the golden throne. He certainly didn't use psychic engineering in any real meaningful way. Nothing he did really strikes me as much like the old ones in any way. Wouldn't ascension also remove the mortal shell? The emperor was never really described as a floating ectoplasm inhabiting a fleshy body.

Hellebore

Xisor
05-03-2010, 16:47
The Emperor's not an Old One, is another major theory of mine. Also the Emperor is...on the cusp. His plan was to apotheose into an Old One (or something like that), Magnus sortof was ambitious in that way too. And I fancy the idea that Lorgar had uncovered some 'bits' of the idea (i.e. that it was indeed possible to make the Emperor a god, not a superstitious woo-man, but a bona-fide, super-power even more than he was).

The levelling up stems from the Silver and Ork Thrones, IMO. The Golden Thrones seem...a bit different. Well, you level up knowledge-wise with the Akashic Reader, but the Throne of Terra seems to super-power you for a time (either to build webway, to hold doors shut etc); in any case it's taxing to use. I also imagine it's somewhat linked into the origins of the Navigators and the Astronomican, but that's even more conspiracy-shoehorny silliness (see Idaan's objections).

Speaking of that, Idaan, which intro adventure is it? I've not looked into them in depth (reluctant in case someone I know offers to run one of them!), but I intend to. (I'm a vaguely big fan of the Slaugth myself; I really want to tie the Amarandine Syndicate into things, indeed I'm considering hijacking Haarlock's Legacy 2 with an Amarandine plot instead of Haarlockian!)

Anyway, point, Hellebore was also that 'because of the Heresy' the Emperor's plans have all went a little skewy. The Imperium, thanks to Lorgar, is on the verge of making him into the '5th Chaos God', the one of obedience and ignorance. Where both Nurgle and Tzeentch play up change (ever regressing, ever progressing), the Imperium is a nice example of 'ever equilibrium', you could argue. Even if you don't, I think the Obedience and Ignorance aspect is really compelling.

All that energy and feeling poured into "the Emperor" is intriguing (and you've also got the Omnissiah). When the Emperor dies it mightn't be one god that emerges. A trifurcated superpower? The fifth Chaos God, the Star Child and the Omnissiah!? But then there'd be other gods trying to occupy those same places! (The Dragon and Ynnead, most noteably; how very similar the Star Child and Ynnead seem, I half suspect they'll be one and the same...)

Anyway, as you can see, it's a big sprawling, many-facetted idea, but I can't deny there's an undeniable nucleus of 'The Emperor levelled up' in there.

Having said that, I don't think you can really avoid that either.

In any case, whatever the deal with the Emperor is; we aren't sure. Like all warp powers, their whole story is only even barely tellable, IMO, once you 'integrate over all of time'; we don't know the endgame and so we can't know which ones were acting 'backwards in time'. (Did the Eldar birth Slaanesh, or did the emergence of Slaanesh 'rising to the surface' cause the Eldar civilisation to go mad. Nothing I have seen tells me the Eldar [or even supposedly omniscient narrators] are immune to causal correlation fallacies...!)

There's also an engaging theme throughout the Heresy of the Primarchs being both more powerful, but much less in command of their destines than the Astartes (the 'truly liberated'?). That both appeals to the GW 'Space Marines are everything' mentality, but also to my sense of liking a good subversion. Abaddon, Typhon, Ahriman, Erebus, Fabius...they all manage their priorities much better than their masters. Same with Sigismund, curiously. And arguably Bjorn too.

Anyway, that's also beside the point. Can't help you like the theory(ies), but I think there's something compelling in 'em.

Whilst I'm on the conspiracy bandwagon, I'll also (re)terrify you with my (not at all) firm belief that the Book contained the spirit of the Dragon, that the Squat in Mechanicum was indeed a squat and he escaped to the Home Worlds with said Book wherein, some time later, the Book [and the Dragon] was inextricably linked with their doom.

It's not a theory I particularly like, but I call's it like I see it. ;)

Idaan
05-03-2010, 16:55
Speaking of that, Idaan, which intro adventure is it? I've not looked into them in depth (reluctant in case someone I know offers to run one of them!), but I intend to. (I'm a vaguely big fan of the Slaugth myself; I really want to tie the Amarandine Syndicate into things, indeed I'm considering hijacking Haarlock's Legacy 2 with an Amarandine plot instead of Haarlockian!)

That's the one. The description of the Halo Device is on p.17
http://new.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/rogue-trader/support/PDF/Forsaken%20Bounty%20%28web%20quality%29.pdf

MvS
05-03-2010, 18:51
Regarding the Halo Devices, I think it would be safe to say that these are not one 'type' of device so much as a blanket term for any device found in the Halo Stars that works and does something weird. It wouldn't have to be a life extending machine per se.

Also, if the Halo Device in question could extend one's life, this doesn't mean necessarily that it is Old One or C'tan technology in any way related to the various 'Thrones' mentioned in the imagery. There are probably any number of hard to find technologies and sorceries (and mixes) in the 40K galaxy that can extend one's life to effective immortality. Again, a bit like in the Cthulhu mythos.

For the benefit of the rest of us, could anyone with a knowledge (and preferably some quotes) concerning the 'Silver Throne' and the Ork Throne give a precis for us here on the thread? They may exist as an intentional 'link' with the Golden Throne and the Akashic Reader, or they may simply be 'cool' additions to various novels but not intended as being a part of a consistent mythology or whatever. Although their mention is a bit of a coincidence and would have had to have got past some level of IP check, so I it seems likely that they might mean something 'bigger'...

EDIT:

Re. the Thrones as 'ascension devices'. I think the idea has some merit, although I sympathise with Hellebore's hesitations. It's one of those areas that I don't think has been explained well enough yet by the various GW books. They may not even be a coherent stand on what they are and do yet, I don't know.

Perhaps psychics and other powerful entities can use them to enhance abilities, but does this have to mean that the Thrones were created for that purpose? I mean a caveman finding a space-suit might gain all sorts of prestige from wearing the strange shiny garment that withstands extremes of cold and heat, and may even be heralded as a a king or prophet because he owns it, but he would never guess at the systems that created it nor yet its real purpose - for astronauts during space walks.

Perhaps the Golden Throne is similar? Perhaps it grants all sorts enhanced powers and even entrance to the Webway, but does this mean that these are its primary (or even intended) functions? Again, a caveman could probably, if not unwisely, use rocket fuel to light a campfire quite well without ever realising what it was, how it was made or the complex chemistry involved in manufacturing it specifically to fuel rockets, and of course wouldn't even imagine the possibility or purpose of what a rocket is, why and how it needs fuel or anything else.

This sort of idea would put the Golden Throne on an even 'higher' and more mysterious level than it is. It could hold secrets that not even the Emperor really understood or even thought to ask. Which of course opens all sorts of plot hooks for further plot developments.

Regarding 'ascension' to being an Old One equivalent - so an individual being from an intelligent species who has, for any number of reasons, managed to gain so much power through contact with the Warp that this being becomes effectively immortal and god-like in abilities - I think there must be all sorts of ways of becoming like this. Some civilisations or individuals might have managed to achieve this 'state' because of some sort of unique but natural attribute to their psyches or souls, others might have 'ascended' because of extremely advanced technologies that can manipulate the Warp. Others again might have been 'gifted' with powers from other already 'ascended' beings, or accidentally through exposure to the Warp (like a kind of souped-up Fantastic 4 but with 'Warp rays' instead of 'cosmic rays'). Some might have even achieved this state through force of will and almost supernatural faith mixed with the correct environment (ie: proximity to a Warp storm or whatever).

Also, I think even amonst the 'ascended' Old One types there would be differences in powers, both in terms of scale and in terms of specific abilities, just as there are with daemons and other Warp entities. In other words, I think it's perhaps possible for there to be a whole spectrum of different beings with different abilities attained for different reasons and used with very different motivations.

We could say that the Golden Throne was one of the different 'ways' to soup up psychic abilities to demi-god levels, but at the same time I like the idea that the ancient shamans, humanity's first psykers, figured out their own way to achieve immortality and godlike powers through their own endeavours. This would give their end 'product' certain strengths but also paticular weaknesses in relation to other beings from the pre-history of the 40K galaxy.

Whatever the case, I think this is a topic worth discussing further as it's raising some interesting ideas! :)

Hellebore
06-03-2010, 00:13
Well the thrones don't have to be old one technology. The eldar were in command of the universe for a lot longer (it seems) than the old ones so there's actually a higher probability they are eldar in origin. The golden throne's connection to the webway gate could be evidence of that.

So is the argument that the old one races created individual races in their image and/or bias? ie each of the old races were created by a seperate group of old ones. The eldar were created by one type of old one, the orks another etc.

Were the old ones even described as being energy beings? I thought they were just really good at manipulating the warp. I'm not sure they really ascended to any plane of existence anyway.

Also, we are told that they didn't have any affects on the warp. It was calm until the younger races showed up. This made sense when the old ones were all one 'cold blooded' race but with them being a multitude of races it becomes harder to explain, unless somehow every one of those races didn't emote and/or could control their emotions completely.

I've never been a massive fan of the concept that the old ones were literal warp gods to the younger races (that Khaine was an actual entity). I suppose I like there to be some sense of non literalism to the myth. It's getting to the point where anytime a myth shows up in a story it's taken as gospel truth because that's what it ends up being.

The other problem stems back to the idea of the old ones having no disharmonious effect on the warp. Well the eldar gods are anything if not emotive. Khaine is angry, Isha is compassionate etc. It seems rather odd that the warp was not negatively affected by the old ones if they were as emotive and passionate as the eldar gods are described.

To me the olds ones would have definitely inspired god worship, but that the warp entities created in that god worship were coloured by the sentience of the race in question. The eldar creation of gods was one of passion and vitality, even if the old ones they based them on were not that way.

Maybe the old ones eventually fused with those warp entities, but I don't like the idea that they became the dominant core of them, beyond simply because emotions and warp gods seem to be something that didn't concern the old ones.

If in a primitive society a child is born and declared a god incarnate and worshiped as such they won't simply become that god. A child declared Khorne won't then overcome the warp storm of Khorne and supplant the image of him. Even if the old ones were potent psykers (which they were) they as an individual couldn't hope to dominate a collective race's warp conjurations.


Hellebore

Inquisitor Engel
08-03-2010, 22:09
Well the thrones don't have to be old one technology. The eldar were in command of the universe for a lot longer (it seems) than the old ones so there's actually a higher probability they are eldar in origin. The golden throne's connection to the webway gate could be evidence of that.

I just don't see the Eldar showing up on Earth. There's no other signs that the Eldar empire ever extended through and around Earth other than the rough concept there's a webway gate (IIRC the HH artbook suggests the Emperor was BUILDING an entrance, not that he was tapping into an existing one). The fact that during man's first stellar empire it actually coexisted with the Eldar one (although the Eldar one was apparently already in decline, given the events on Aghoru) indicates that the Eldar probably didn't care about humanity and hadn't really had any contact with them prior to that either.

At least, that's what it seems like to me.


Were the old ones even described as being energy beings? I thought they were just really good at manipulating the warp. I'm not sure they really ascended to any plane of existence anyway.

I find the idea of true ascension one that 40k hasn't approached yet and something the Old Ones can really get away with, being beings of that magnitude. They were never described as energy beings though.


I've never been a massive fan of the concept that the old ones were literal warp gods to the younger races (that Khaine was an actual entity). I suppose I like there to be some sense of non literalism to the myth. It's getting to the point where anytime a myth shows up in a story it's taken as gospel truth because that's what it ends up being.

I think that the Old Ones being worshiped as such is the Occam's Razor here. It's the simplest explanation and the one there's the most evidence to support.


The other problem stems back to the idea of the old ones having no disharmonious effect on the warp. Well the eldar gods are anything if not emotive. Khaine is angry, Isha is compassionate etc. It seems rather odd that the warp was not negatively affected by the old ones if they were as emotive and passionate as the eldar gods are described.

Perhaps it's to do with frequency of the resonance - the warp vibrates at frequency A and newer races vibrate at frequency B, creating ripples and disharmony that can coalesce into vast waves and storms of emotion.

The Old Ones, being the first beings to come to sentience, might have evolved at a time when there was less of a barrier and so have an emotional resonance that matches the warps native frequency, thus not creating any ripples, it simply follows the patterns that exist naturally within the warp.

It's taking Magnus' "The Great Ocean" thing a bit further than I think was originally intended. ;)


Maybe the old ones eventually fused with those warp entities, but I don't like the idea that they became the dominant core of them, beyond simply because emotions and warp gods seem to be something that didn't concern the old ones.

But the Old Ones are something very different, this we know. Cergorach is an entity that lives within the webway and Khaine created something DIFFERENT than a simple daemon when he split apart.

Xisor
08-03-2010, 22:18
A quick restatement: Avoid confusing correlation with causation, especially in terms of the warp.

The Old Ones 'disturbing the warp' might be more akin to 'someone mimicking you'. Early on: no-one there mimicking. Later, 'daemonicky' people appear nearby, possibly mimicking and also possibly carrying mirrors. Who can say whether the reflections are real or not in that realm?

I haven't formulated a more coherent response at the moment. I'll be considering some more!

Inquisitor Engel
09-03-2010, 00:45
I haven't formulated a more coherent response at the moment. I'll be considering some more!

When it comes to the warp, that may be the most coherent thing you could hope for!:D