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View Full Version : IG LD, best options.....



Court
16-10-2007, 05:20
In your opinions, which is the best save for the gaurd's Ld?

Master Voxing, with Vox's around?
Doctorines?
Lots of Commisars?

The UnNamed One
16-10-2007, 05:23
i would say Ld bubbles from officers, for squads that will be outside this range (like infiltrating vetrans) get a sergent for the squad.

eek107
16-10-2007, 07:02
Iron Discipline and good command squad coverage is enough. Maybe a basic vox network (no need for the master one, since additional squads can use platoon command voxes) and a couple of Commissars if you want to be sure.

TheOverlord
16-10-2007, 08:04
master vox with that doctrine about drug sniffing, forgot it's name, with lots of seargents. LD9 all around with no modifiers. Very mean. I think there is some kind item you can get that re-rolls your ld if you fail, but I don't play guard so I'm not too sure now.

MorningLightMountain
16-10-2007, 08:56
Yeah, veteran Sgts with Close Order Drill - your lads will be at Ld9. If they're within range of an officer with Iron Discipline then it's Ld9 re-rollable.

I like to deep strike my lads but deploy the command squads out of sight in my dz, so the infantry come down all in base-to-base automatically so benefit from COD. Then if they do fall back they run straight towards the officers, which give them a chance to re-group with Iron Discipline.

Gen.Steiner
16-10-2007, 09:27
Personally, I favour a Master Vox with a vox-net simply because a) it works, b) it's in keeping with the background and c) it looks cool.

Bunnahabhain
16-10-2007, 12:22
Depends on the size of your force.

Officers Ld, with basic doctrines- Close order and Iron D- is fine at up to about 2000pts

Veteran sergeants and close order drill is very tough to shift for lots of opponents, as each squad has Ld 9 on it's own. Against lots of blasts, not a good idea.

As the ratio of squads to officers creeps up, ie at higher points levels, the vox network becomes a better option, especially as you're likely to have some squads well away from officers by that point- in filtaritors, Rough riders etc.

The other morale doctrines- die hards, and chem inhalers- are far too expensive for what they do.

Edit. Just noticed the option of lots of commissars in the OPs question. Never tried it, never seen it tried. Have seen how expensive it would be to try though, and stayed well clear.

I use at most 1 commissar in the army, and that is entirely for fluff reasons. ( In fact it's usually used in an opponents permission only unit. Rough riders come in platoons, ie a couple of squads, plus mounted command squad, and I have a wonderful mounted commissar model. The platoon may use up all my fast attack slots, but it's worth it, if only to re-enact the charge of the light brigade....)

Deadmanwade
16-10-2007, 13:17
I find that a combo of voxes and officers and commissars is really tough to beat. I usually use COD if I can, but it has limitations, only infantry platoons and noobs...er conscripts and you're begging for template weapons.
I put Iron Discipline on the Officers. At 5 points each its great if there are any units in range to make use of it and unless you max out on junior officers you only need to spend about 15 points in most games.
Veteran Sergeants come in handy for their wargear access and extra attacks anyway, assault isnt the guards strong point.
Commissars give you extra power weapons and a few nice rules and the vox network is there in case the enemy takes out the officers nearest to your troops.
Whilst it is expensive, this army has a better leadership than a lot of "better" armies and is hard to disrupt. Weak morale is a bad way to lose a game. I'd rather all my guardsmen died facing front rather than running off the board.
I wonder when the Tau will develop radio.... ;)

Getz
16-10-2007, 13:21
It all rather depends on how your army plays...

Conventional wisdom is that the Officers' Leadership bubble is enough, especially if backed up by a standard and the Iron Discipline doctrine.

Veteran Sarges are also popular and useful as the both add to you Ld and give you a character (and more importantly, their access to wargear) for the squad.

Vox networks are generally considered sub-par, but if you're playing mechanised or Drop Troops where you troopers routinely get spread out beyond the Leadership radius they suddenly make a lot of sense. They are also pretty much indespensible in apocalypse sized games.

Commisars are as valuble as an extra character in your HQ squads as they are as a leadership buff. Overall they are considered too expensive, but if taken with the Independant Commisars doctrine - or if you take enough to start assigning them to infantry squads - they can be handy.

Chem-inhalers is pretty good, but also pretty expensive, so you really need to be commited to the whole "won't run away" idea behind it. Die hards is nearly as good for a lot less points.

Polonius
16-10-2007, 13:35
Getz summed up my experience pretty well. As a general rule, the more squads you have, the more platoons you have, the more officers you have, the less the need for voxes becomes.

Conversely, the more small and elite your army is, the fewer LD bubbles you project, the more valuable voxes become.

I play infantry heavy, so I usually deploy an HSO and 3-4 JO's in an 1850 pt game, all with ID. I find that usually takes care of business pretty well.

One thing to remember about ID: It not only negates the -1 for being under half, it also allows squads under half to regroup, which can save you some points, as well as provide more bodies.

One thing I always get confused on is how the various buffs interact. Does a commissar give +1 LD to the entire voxnet? Last I checked, it did, but Iron D. didn't transmit down.

Additionally, I never added the +1 from COD if I was using an officer's leadership, but I encountered a gentleman who said it was legal. Any thoughts?

Bloodknight
16-10-2007, 13:40
I'd rather buy veteran sergants than voxes. In smaller games the option is simply cheaper and more useful (let's say you have 4 line squads. That's 45 points of vox network (master vox + 4 voxes). The same points buy 4 veteran sergeants with storm bolters.

Polonius
16-10-2007, 13:44
Well, in smaller games you don't really need the master vox, as at least some of your line squads will probably be within 12" of your HSO. that drops the cost to only 25pts. Personally, I'd rather scrape together the pts for more JO's with ID, but as a Praetorian player, I want to use all my young dandy Lieutenants.

Bloodknight
16-10-2007, 13:51
Well, actually I buy none of the options. My officers have to do the job - one HSO, one JO with Honorifica and one normal JO, all with ID.

Deadmanwade
16-10-2007, 13:56
I would say that CoD doesnt transmit down a vox network as it states in the codex FAQ update "Special rules and wargear are not conveyed down a vox link" Plus the CoD itself states that its only for use when the units own Ld is being used and doesnt work if you use an officers Ld. I wouldnt think it would work in reverse.

Thinking about it, the benefits of CoD are gained by having your mates close at hand to back you up and provide support.

"Squad B regroup. Dont be afraid of the enemy, Private Jones is stood right next to me!" Doesnt really cut it.

don_mondo
16-10-2007, 14:00
Yeah, veteran Sgts with Close Order Drill - your lads will be at Ld9. If they're within range of an officer with Iron Discipline then it's Ld9 re-rollable.

?? Iron D does not allow a reroll..... Were you thinking of the Standard?

For me, an HSO with standard and a JO with Honorifica, backed up by Iron D, seems to work quite well. Gives me 2/3 of my deployment zone with LD 9 that ignores the -1 for below half. Any units I drop are LD 8 or 9 due to Close Order Drill so voxes aren't really necessary.

Polonius
16-10-2007, 14:05
Well, actually I buy none of the options. My officers have to do the job - one HSO, one JO with Honorifica and one normal JO, all with ID.

Good man! I freely concede that mechanized, drop troop and grenadier armies might benefit from voxes, but for a gunline army, command sections are your friend. Whether you want a cheap heavy weapon platform, a nasty little counter charge unit, or a plasma battery, the command section can do the job, all while projecting LD8 for 12" with Iron D.

My favorite sections are:

JO, ID, Missile Launcher, 2 Plasma guns. This is the swiss army knife of my force. I'll pitch and scream and yell at gamers who try to build versatile infantry squads, because you have enough to specialize. I like the swingmen of my army to be the officers. This little squad has a little long range punch with the Missile, packs a ton of mid range firepower against MEq's and light vehicles, and is a nasty surprise to anything that gets to close with four plasma shots. If need be, the whole unit can hide to provide LD, and you're only out 80 pts.

JO, ID, Bolt Pistol, Power Weapon, 4 Flamers. This unit is scarier in concept than in reality, but four templates make everybody nervous. If you have drop troops as a doctrine, this can be a powerful deep strike threat, but few units enjoy getting countercharged with this little guy. While not a huge threat in HtH, most opponents will overreact to the power weapon, enabling you to (hopefully) tie the enemy up on his turn. While waiting for the right moment, this 75pt wonder can hide out of LOS and keep the boys in line.

Other popular options I've seen include: JO, ID, lascannon; JO, ID, 3 plasma, Medic; JO, ID, storm bolter, 4 grenade launchers; JO, ID, 4 Meltas.

Hulkster
16-10-2007, 14:14
Well my guard are for fluff more then victory

so i use 5 commissars and vox casting

not the most cost effective but fluffy and that is why i play guard

Necros
16-10-2007, 14:28
You can get LD10 for all of your guard if you take a heroic senior officer or junior + honorifica wargear that gives him the stats of a heroic senior officer, and then just add 1 comissar to the unit and he gives your officer +1 LD, so you'll have 10. And then add a master vox plus a normal vox in every unit that can take it. Just park them in a building and hide them somewhere. Make the unit as cheap as possible, they're only job is to give your whole army LD 10, don't do any fighting or put them in harms way.

I do it this way because my army is more mobile. I also use drop troops, stormtroopers/grenadiers and vets. Gunline guard is just kind of boring for me :( I took the heavy weapons out of my platoons and added them to HQ heavy weapons squads so they don't take up HW slots that I need for tanks. Now my platoons are free to move anywhere they like without me worrying about moving them and losing a lascannon shot, so I can run off and capture objectives or whatever. With them moving around, it's not as easy to stay in HQ range, so the vox allows every unit a chance to use that 10 leadership from the HQ if I really need it. I also take Iron Discipline on my officers too and close order drill, just don't move into close order formation until you know you're about to be charged and there's nothing you can do about it. If you stay clumped, you're gonna get wiped out with template weapons

The only drawback to the HQ Heavy weapons is they need to be in the LD bubble, they'll be the only unit that can't get the high LD from the voxes.

superknijn
16-10-2007, 14:34
Uhm, the comissar's +1 to leadership is a special rule, which is not transmitted through a vox-caster.

I play a fairly fluffy army; all my infantry squads (4 in total, it's a rather armored list) have a vox-caster, and my army's led by a HSO with a commissar and Iron Discipline. My other command squad also has an officer with commissar (no vox-caster, as he already has Ld9) and ID. Yes, it's Leadership overkill, but I want my few infantry to stand as long as possible in the face of adversity, and I love commissars. Indeed, I bought a new one just 30 minutes ago.

Blandman
16-10-2007, 14:49
If I'm remembering this properly, doesn't it say under the Iron Discipline Doctrine that any unit using that Officer's leadership gets the benefits of ID? This made me believe that it could be conveyed through the Vox-network.

boogle
16-10-2007, 14:53
Master Vox + Vox net AND Iron Discipline for me every time

Necros
16-10-2007, 15:22
oh... oops... looks like I played my last game wrong then :p well, you can still get LD9 with the vox network anyway.. :) I find voxes to just be a lot more flexable than the LD bubble method

ChaosMaster
16-10-2007, 16:13
I rarely worry about the Ld of my IG army unless someone "cheeses" you with Tigurius and Fear of the Dark from behind cover two feet away, and that only happened to me once. Most of the time their regular Ld is just fine and instead of spending points to boost their Ld I find that spending the points on more models and more firepower is a much better use of the points.

Mad Icon
16-10-2007, 16:39
If you read the Iron Discipline, Close order drill, and vox rules and then look at the Guard errata on the GW site, they make it pretty clear that nothing but the base leadership transfers down the vox line. I made this same mistake when I started my guard army and quickly had to fix it after looking at the way these rules interact with the errata.

And to answer the question of what I use... I play regular infantry with tanks. No elite choices, no walkers... Vet Sarges in every squad. I rarely have leadership issues. My problem is Terminators. And really fast armies, like marine bikers. Any suggestions on that?

Gen.Steiner
16-10-2007, 16:44
If you read the Iron Discipline, Close order drill, and vox rules and then look at the Guard errata on the GW site, they make it pretty clear that nothing but the base leadership transfers down the vox line.

Sad, but true. Only the Officer's base Ld will transmit down the line; not the +1 from a Commissar, not Iron Discipline, just the basic Ld of the Officer in question.


My problem is Terminators. And really fast armies, like marine bikers. Any suggestions on that?

Terminators: shoot them a lot; they die eventually. AP2 weapons and Demolisher cannons are best but even lasrifles will kill them if you hit them with enough.

Fast armies: Terrain. Dig in, make them take difficult terrain tests a lot; and shoot the most worrying things first - it's all about target priority.

Blandman
16-10-2007, 17:06
Pscht, the Officer's discipline can't be very iron like then can it?

Now I'm going to have to re-work my whole strategy.

Gen.Steiner
16-10-2007, 17:18
Iron Discipline works because the Officer can see (or at least physically be heard shouting) the men and women that need some encouragement. If you're on the other end of a vox-line you lose some of the effect.

It's still a bloody ace doctrine tho', no fear about that!

Blandman
16-10-2007, 17:50
I dunno, if someone shouted down a Vox at me "If your squad falls back you'll all be shot" it'd convince me to stay put.

Ah well, I'll just keep the Vox-network and give ID to all my Officers instead of just the one.

Gen.Steiner
16-10-2007, 17:55
That's what they say anyway. :p

Blandman
16-10-2007, 18:05
That's very true. Poor Guardsmen. Stuck between a huge demon and a pissed off Commissar.

Polonius
16-10-2007, 18:05
To the person asking about termies and bikes (and other fast elements):

Terminators are either walking, riding in a LR, or teleporting/drop podding. Walking termies can be shot at leisure, you have at least 3 but more likely 4 turns before they can assault. Sure, you'll lose most of a squad in return fire, but they need to wipe out 2.5 las/plas squads to win their points back, and we can take a lot of plasma....

Riding in a LR are among the most dangerous. LR's need to be blown up with lascannons immediatly. If you go 2nd, you will only get one turn to shoot at it before it hits your line. In most games, though, you'll only have one LR to deal with. once they charge your lines, well, you need to go into typical IG assault mode (more later!)

For fast elements, remember that anything that can charge you is probobly in rapid fire range. bikes are pretty fragile, and even assault squads are only MEQ's with wings. Moving closer seems counterintuitive, but if you're going to get charged next turn anyway, why not make it as far from the rest of your lines as possible?

When deploying, if you have few squads, spread them out a little. If you run infantry heavy (which you should be. the emperor loves triple digit model counts) then make sure to have a few skirmish line units (I like HB/Flamer) to move forward and shoot, flame, and eventually tie up the enemy. If the enemy foolishly moves close enough, consider charging to deny them any charge bonus, and hopefully hold in combat during their turn.

Hope this helps!

Finn
16-10-2007, 18:17
IIRC, the commissar's +1 Ld does apply to the Leadership rule (the bubble)...

Gen.Steiner
16-10-2007, 18:21
To the 12" bubble, yes. But not to anything down the vox-net.

Court
16-10-2007, 18:46
The points cost of the entire Vox network is a good point. Will have to do some workings and see which is more point efficient, play it out abit.

One thing i like about the Vox's is the army feel of it. Good communication around the whole army. Specially as i plan on digging in around the board, not just in my DZ.

Got some ideas on force organization but as said, usually good idea in theory, but in play test...not so much hehe.

Gen.Steiner
16-10-2007, 18:50
Vox-nets for an army that contains two 25-strong platoons, a HQ unit and a Stormtrooper/Veteran unit will work out at:

15pts per platoon, 25pts for the HQ and 5pts for the Vets/Stormies, making a total of 60pts out of maybe 1,500.

Compared to the 24pts for four Vet Sgts in the four line squads, it's quite a bit more expensive - indeed, that vox-net'd buy you a whole extra squad in theory - but it works. And it looks cool.

Court
16-10-2007, 19:07
And looking cool makes a differance hehe. Plus i already have a kit bash commander in a track wheel chair and workin on a master vox conversion as well.

superknijn
16-10-2007, 19:22
Plus, it's infinitively more fluffy than just slamming in Close Order Drill in a Cadian army. I mean, when you face Greater Daemons all te time coming right at you, won't you disperse if you've been trained to do that?

MuttMan
16-10-2007, 19:45
I spam troops, very very cheap troops if I am able. Paying for all those voxes and crap ends up being 2-4 squads of men towards the end of it all, and I rather buy more men. Average LD is 7, having ld 8 with ATSKNF style benefits from officers (alot of officers with min/max troops of all 6) using the cool, the insane, the Iron Discipline doctrine. Feel like tyranids with synapse with those guys...

catbarf
16-10-2007, 19:54
Chem-Inhalers are a relatively easy way to keep your squads in the fight. With no negative Ld penalties, you will NOT run, even at Ld7.

Ruroni
16-10-2007, 20:31
Here's the apocalypse answer: the fortess of arrogance.

Played a game the other day, failed only 1 test, and believe me I took about 30 of em.

Dio´Ra
16-10-2007, 20:37
when said officer gets excecuted on the field by a commissar.....would the commissar then count as the officer for the vox/master vox and thus gaining the ld10 for voxes?

Gen.Steiner
16-10-2007, 20:40
Good question. Going by RAW I'd have to say no, because the Commissar doesn't have the Leadership special rule.

Going by Basic Common Sense, I'd say "Sure! Pass the dice!" and of course let you do that.

Dio´Ra
16-10-2007, 20:46
but does the leadership special have annything to do with it? the description of voxes only state officers and not models with the leadership rule.

now the commissar takes over command of the unit and thus all basic morale stuff by the unit is rolled with ld10 and wouldnt it make just sense that it also applies to the vox?

Gen.Steiner
16-10-2007, 20:54
Yes, I think it does. The vox-net only works with Officers, and the Commissar is, as his name suggests, not an Officer.

The 'Leadership' rule enables other figures to use that character's Ld for tests. This is the rule that is used through the vox-net.

Commissars do not have the 'Leadership' rule and so, RAW, cannot transmit their Ld down a vox-net. All that happens is that they take over the squad that they're attached to - nothing else.

Green Shoes
16-10-2007, 21:13
Hell, I don't use the vox network anymore (CoD and Vets for me: so cheap points wise...) but I would definately allow someone playing with voxes and a Commissar to transmit the +1. I mean, whoever is on the other end would definately be aware of the Commissar barking in the background, and would thusly fear for his life. The restriction on that rule is just bogus. Also, it makes the Commissar more worth his hefty points cost that ways.