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marv335
16-10-2007, 16:46
As the title says, What is the big deal with the lash?
People seem to be complaining about it, claiming that it's a "no brainer" choice.

Am I missing something?

moving a unit them maybe pinning it?
doesn't seem that powerful to me.

Seriously, I've not come up against it in a game and at the moment it sounds like theoryhammer panic.
Opinions with examples would be nice.

Quadros
16-10-2007, 16:50
yeah, try moving a unit out of cover and towards your army, bunching them together, then dropping a vindicator template on them. Or moving a dev squad behind a building. or getting that pesky carnifex to run away from his own line and effectively taking him out of the battle.

Brother Loki
16-10-2007, 16:54
The uses that seem to have people up in arms are things like pulling an enemy unit out of their battle line (potentially twice!) and into charge range of your daemon prince/greater daemon/crazy dreadnought/terminators or whatever, or alternatively using it to group an enemy squad into a handy circular formation and dropping a vindicator template or two on them.

It's one of things that's not spectacularly powerful on its own, but combined with others has great potential. Personally I like it, as it attacks the enemy's plan, not just his troops. Whether its actually as good as people thinks is probably still to be seen, particularly whether they FAQ it to make it clear you can't target a unit already in combat.

zeep
16-10-2007, 16:55
Against a standard meq army its not that powerfull, against certain others... It really hurts.

Many assault type armies run into large problems when two units a turn not only dont make contact, but are pulled out of cover and into a position to be gunned down. After several games in a chaos heavy enviroment Im really starting to re-evalute my list and the position genestealers have in it.

Remember, many assault type armies only have a limited amount of "shots" in units that can get into the enemy.

Nkari
16-10-2007, 16:55
Move out of cover into btb with eachother and blasting them with a demolisher cannon.

Move a squad FROM the objective or from your table quarter in the last turn.

Move a squad Closer so you can assault.

Move a Squad further away so they can not assault (into btb ofc so you can blast them with demolisher, plasmacannon or battlecannon death).

Move a squad so they do not have LOS with their heavy weapons, and thus needing to move, thus wont be able to fire this turn.

(debatable, but atm nothing really prevents it by RAW) Last turn enemy assaulted you, he won but you didnt run, lash out of combat, shoot them to hell, then assault them.

Tons of evil stuff to do with your oponent.. =)
And for the record.. I did not even remember the lash had a pinning check after the squad has been moved, wich only makes it even better when they get pinned (rare as it is)

The only armys that have defence against the lash are Space marines (any variant cept chaos), Eldar and Tyranids.. ofc imperium armys can ally Silly expensive inquisitors, but they arent really worth the pts just for the hood..

Merceus
16-10-2007, 17:02
To try and keep the cheese off of it when used, I just nominate a target unit, say which direction Ill move it, then roll the dice... Allowing the models owner to move them, this way it all stays happy and fun and friendly... not that it doesnt if you pack em together, its just better this way...

My uses were 1) "Keep the Power Fist totting Vets away from my tanks" and 2) "Keep the Fex away from my tanks"... all very simple really :D

Lord_Squinty
16-10-2007, 17:07
Move necron lord out of res orb range, - pie plate warriors - 2/3 turn phase out.....

Thoth62
16-10-2007, 17:18
Against tyranids it can be used to move synapse creatures back, so the big hordes of bugs are stuck out of synapse range.

I agree though, by itself, it's not really a game breaker, but if you use it in conjunction with other parts of your army, it can be.

But wait! Thats the same concept as every other army out there! If you use units and abilities together to accent each others strengths, you have a much better chance of winning the game! Curse GW for giving me the tools to win! Curse them!

bigred
16-10-2007, 17:19
Without going into the myriad nefarious ways you can use Lash, lets take a step back and understand what it really is.

It lets you control the other player's units. Its closest analogy in the game currently is the Callidus Assassin's "Word in Your Ear" power, which can be game altering, and only happens 1 time, with a maximum move distance of 6".

Lash has a 2d6 move distance and can be used up to 2 times per turn.

What we are fundamentally talking about is the ability to force your opponent to make a mistake twice per turn. Used repeatedly, turn after turn, it will win games.

For the nitty-gritty of lash look here.

How to use Lash (http://belloflostsouls.blogspot.com/2007/08/tactica-lash-of-submission.html)
How to defend against Lash (http://belloflostsouls.blogspot.com/2007/08/tactica-lash-of-submission-part-2.html)

-bigred

Killgore
16-10-2007, 17:20
Move necron lord out of res orb range, - pie plate warriors - 2/3 turn phase out.....

OH DEAR GOD

a power that actly needs the rest of your army for effective use! if the DREADED vindicators are destroyed and the offencive nearby squads are already engaged in hand to hand combat what good is the lash then eh?

dont wait for the lash, take the initative and make the chaos lasher react to your plans, not the other way round

Democratus
16-10-2007, 17:25
In my local area, the Lash army has failed to become the big spooky that everyone was afraid of. We've seen people scream before about things that were "broken" or "game destroying" before. We will see it again.

The TheoryHammer panic was indeed much ado about nothing.

Quadros
16-10-2007, 17:30
or tie the lasher in assault asap.

UltimateNagash
16-10-2007, 17:54
Hmm, lets see. In all the Chaos armies I've made (including Slaanesh), I've used it twice... Yeah, reaaaaaal no-brainer... :eyebrows:
What can I say, I like Tzeentch more so, and I normally take up a HQ slot with my Lord on Disk with Deathscreamer, and grab some Thousand Sons...

Anyway, Lash could be used well, but you HAVE to think:
Defiler/Vindicator pie plate is nasty, but the tank will be targeted straight away...
Moving them to be able to charge em quicker. Yep, you kill them, then your combat unit gets shot to pieces :eyebrows:
I dunno, it really doesn't seem that game breaking to me...

Polonius
16-10-2007, 17:55
I used lash pretty effectivly to get a first turn assault with a DP. The seconod unit failed to move far enough to be charged, so I lost that DP to shooting.

Lash is not game breaking in the sense that it will gain it's user automatic wins. It's just not.

Lash is, however, a powerful tool that violates one of the central rules of 40k (only the controlling player may move his units), and allows for multiple combinations. Couple this with being buyable on a highly mobile and durable platform (wing princes), and you have a unit that can affect games beyond it's ostensible points cost.

I have to admit, my one attempt was far less spectacular than I had hoped. Lash, IMO, is the new Fear of Darkness. While FOD very rarely wins a game for it's user, it's cheap enough to be a near no-brainer and when it connects it wins big. Lash is the same way. Grabbing JSJ suits from out of cover. First turn Charges. Bunching units for plasma cannons. Moving units closer to other units for rapid fire/charging goodness. Pushing back large nasties (C'tan in particular, but tyrants and fexes fall into this). Pulling units out of cover.

It's a tool that's useful against any opponent that is far more game breaking then say, simply giving the DP a 25 pt move and shoot lascannon.

UltimateNagash
16-10-2007, 18:05
Just out of curiosity, is this anything like the supposed LoS :cheese: list:

Daemon Prince 155
Mark of Slaanesh, Wings, Lash of Submission

Daemon Prince 155
Mark of Slaanesh, Wings, Lash of Submission

5 Chaos Terminators 285
All are Terminator Champions, 4 have a pair of lightning claws, 1 has chainfist, 1 has Icon of Khorne

8 Thousand Sons 184
Aspiring Sorcerer 85
Bolt of Change
Chaos Rhino 35

8 Thousand Sons 184
Aspiring Sorcerer 85
Bolt of Change
Chaos Rhino 35

Chaos Vindicator 140
Extra Armour

Chaos Vindicator 140
Extra Armour

1483 points

Polonius
16-10-2007, 18:06
that's a good start. I'd rather trade in the vindies and termies for Oblits, but that's a matter of taste.

Quadros
16-10-2007, 18:09
The vindis and termies are the point of the army; the lashers fly aroud dragging units into pie sized formations for the vindis, or pulling units into rapid fire/ assault range for the termies and 1k sons.

Democratus
16-10-2007, 18:10
You forgot to give Daemonic Posession to the Vindicators rather than Extra Armor. But you've pretty much summed up the Frumage d'Jour.

Strangely, at least in the Central Texas area, there are 2 Chaos Armies who have made it to the Regionals and neither of them use Lash. The Lash armies (nearly identical to the above list) didn't have what it took to win in such heavy competition.

Killmaimburn
16-10-2007, 18:13
Am I missing something?
I don't know, I don't take one as a matter of course just because I'm bored of hearing about it and folks saying we have a really hot codex because I could always take the lash:angel:
heres a start of some reasons not to take the lash (links to the masses of arguments already had about it)
1 (http://warseer.com/forums/40k-rules/104388-what-alessio-said-about-lash.html?highlight=lash) 2 (http://warseer.com/forums/40k-rules/104675-psychic-powers-follows-shooting-rules.html?highlight=lash) 3 (http://warseer.com/forums/40k-rules/102829-lash-again.html?highlight=lash) 4 (http://warseer.com/forums/40k-rules/99975-gaffe-s-with-new-csm-codex.html?highlight=lash) 5 (http://warseer.com/forums/40k-rules/97895-lash-of-submission-question.html?highlight=lash) 6 (http://warseer.com/forums/40k-rules/100292-lash-of-s-you-moving-enemy-models-thoughts.html?highlight=lash) 7 (http://warseer.com/forums/40k-rules/100296-about-the-lash-i-understand-it-but.html?highlight=lash) 8 (http://warseer.com/forums/40k-rules/98869-lash-of-submission.html?highlight=lash)
Not exhaustive I only went back 2 pages of the search engine)+ there were a few in the tacticas and a few in general.
Beyond our interpretation the 2 main things to bear in mind are these
1 (http://warseer.com/forums/1941008-post292.html) 2 (http://warseer.com/forums/1955989-post3.html) (just the 123 bits that link to quotes from designers, what I say isn't important)
Still waiting on a faq that GW says isn't needed:rolleyes:

Polonius
16-10-2007, 18:13
Didn't the qualifiers use the old chaos dex? the regionals themselves used it, and I haven't heard much about lashes showing at those.

there are many reasons not to take lash. Taking Mark of Khorne for the extra attack. Taking Tzeentch for the krak missile and a 4++.

I think the strength of lash is that it's no more expensive than many other HQ builds, and can synergize well with the rest of any army. I'd imagine lash also loses steam at higher points totals.

UltimateNagash
16-10-2007, 18:16
No, well that's OK... My 1500 point list I'm aiming for (next 500 points to make and paint) including, well just including, Tzeentch stuff: Lord, Sorcerer, 8 Terminators, 8 Raptors, 16 Thousand Sons, 2 Aspiring Sorcerers, and that's it :eyebrows: I like it, TBH... :)
I imagine this would be nasty though:

Chaos Sorcerer 140
Doombolt, Lash of Submission, Mark of Slaanesh, familiar

5 Chaos Space Marines 90
1 has plasma gun

5 Noise Marines 125
All have sonic blasters

Chaos Vindicator 145
Daemonic Possession

500 points
:evilgrin:
It's even slightly themed :D

Polonius
16-10-2007, 18:16
Interesting posts KillMaimburn. It seems that some of the wackier ideas will probobly get squashed, eventually. I still think that it's a fine ability, even if FAQ'd as severely as is really possible (no combat, no multi moves, etc.). the ability to move two enemy units is a potent one.

EarlGrey
16-10-2007, 18:17
Remember, the lack of "up to" means the unit is moved exactly the inches rolled, so it would be difficult to shuffle units out of their original formation (bunch up) without each member moving a different distance.
So, yeah, what's the fuss about lash?

Marinox
16-10-2007, 18:19
i don't think lash is as big a deal as alot of folks are making it about to be. yeah, it CAN be crazy good. (first turn assaults for zerks and yanking peoples out of cover to be shot up by TS, etc...) but a psychic hood shuts it down pretty good, shadows of the warp, etc...

it's good yeah, but not THAT good.

Democratus
16-10-2007, 18:22
Remember, the lack of "up to" means the unit is moved exactly the inches rolled, so it would be difficult to shuffle units out of formation without each member moving a different distance.
So, yeah, what's the fuss about lash?

Let's not get into that one again, please, or else this will just devolve into a mess. If you wish to open a new thread about the interpretation of the language of LoS, feel free. I'll join you there. :)

There is no conclusion on this or many other details regarding the Lash. This is why so many of us are pleading for an FAQ. Maybe we will be put in line right behind the poor Eldar? :angel:

UltimateNagash
16-10-2007, 18:23
Remember, the lack of "up to" means the unit is moved exactly the inches rolled, so it would be difficult to shuffle units out of their original formation (bunch up) without each member moving a different distance.
With clever moving, no, it's not... You move them slightly diagonally, which artificially moves them closer (I think...).

Polonius
16-10-2007, 18:25
Remember, the lack of "up to" means the unit is moved exactly the inches rolled, so it would be difficult to shuffle units out of formation without each member moving a different distance.
So, yeah, what's the fuss about lash?

the rules don't say exactly. While they don't say up to, the rules are pretty clear about compulsory movement (falling back, tank shock), and the rules say you may move the enemy unit 2d6". This needs a FAQ like now, but without mandating exact movement without bunching (which would be criminially difficult to enforce, BTW) the rules say you can move the unit.

And the fuss, since you're clearly being obtuse, is that Lash is the Gravy of 40k. Gravy doesn't taste good on it's own, but it makes nearly everything tastier. Lash makes shooty armies better. It makes choppy armies better. it works really well against any army. It's cheap, robust, and available on multiple models.

As I've said before, it's not the end of 40k or even the most broken thing in teh current environment, but it's good, and it's disengenous to claim it's really not that big of a deal.

Killmaimburn
16-10-2007, 18:26
Remember, the lack of "up to" means the unit is moved exactly the inches rolled, so it would be difficult to shuffle units out of their original formation (bunch up) without each member moving a different distance.
You see thats the bit I'm afraid of, I'm afraid that given GWs nature of taking stuff and trying to say they already knew that\sorted that\"if you read X you'll see Y is clear" They don't have a mechansim for bits and bobs like that as it stands (hence the 300 pages of doom laden arguement and embitterment I linked to) So GW will come up with the obliterator FAQ, sorry did we say toughness 5, sorry some folks have complained, its T4\5, actually its T4. I expect for the FAQ of clarity to stop any movement in the game from functioning and anyone who uses the word lash during a game to suffer an immediate perils of the warp that causes instant death. (not that I think they'll over respond to critics or anything;))Another reason why not to get used to it, the only stuff they've said so far is "what do you mean you can take 2 of them?"

Adra
16-10-2007, 18:34
The funny thing about Lash is the hype has given it greater strength. the fear of lash is worse than its actual dnager. all that "zomg lash overpower kill game blah blah blah" just makes people think its scary and they freak when you say u have it and spend too much time trying to stop it. awesome :D

Polonius
16-10-2007, 18:36
i don't think lash is as big a deal as alot of folks are making it about to be. yeah, it CAN be crazy good. (first turn assaults for zerks and yanking peoples out of cover to be shot up by TS, etc...) but a psychic hood shuts it down pretty good, shadows of the warp, etc...

it's good yeah, but not THAT good.

It's not that good.... but it costs very little. Cheap pizza isn't that good, but when it's free, it's very good.

Lash adds a frightening element to a unit that's arguably undercosted without it, the winged Daemon Prince. With it's combination of durability and choppiness, the DP can afford to burn 25 pts on something that might only be crazy good 1 in three games.

And that's the rub. If you could only buy it on sorcerors, then there would be a downside. You still get a great combat monster, but in addition you get an oppotunity to break the game.

Against Marines, eldar, and nids... well, they'll simply load up on anti-psyker gear and brace for impact.

Against Tau, Orks, DE, IG.... things will get ugly in a hurry.

I play IG. unless I invest 80+ pts in an inquisitor with hood, I have no defense. If I deploy anywhere near the center, there's a decent (admittedly less than half) chance that my opponent can drag a unit into the nuetral zone and charge it, both killing the unit and, if they're good, preventing me from shooting the DP or anything behind him. If this happens on turn one, I could end up never getting a turn of shooting on the DP.

There's a lot of if in that scenario, and I think if I deploy properly and fail some morale checks I can avoid the doomsday. But if my luck goes badly, and not horribly badly mind you, I could get gutted like a fish without any recourse. That's game breaking, and that's my problem.

UltimateNagash
16-10-2007, 18:39
Yeah, grab aload of stuff that doesn't help Lash, and just use them while tricking your opponent... I mean, a Winged Daemon Prince is still good, and hard to kill ;)

I play IG. unless I invest 80+ pts in an inquisitor with hood, I have no defense.
Actually, 65, right? Just get a normal one with a hood and it's fine...

qwertywraith
16-10-2007, 19:17
IG, Orks, Tau, Nids, Dark Eldar all have defence against the Lash. Either, more units or mechanisation (which Tau, DE, Orks all do). Guard have lots of tanks and use deep strikers (they only really have to live the turn they shoot). Yes you can pull a unit of guard out of cover, but the other 4 units of guard shoot you and so do their tanks. Tau mechanise or use JSJ to get out of LOS (not hard with jump packs). Can you move Necron Lords with Res Orbs or Synapse creatures away? Yes. The range though is 24". You are probably stuck in deep at this point.

Lash is powerful, even the nicest interpretation of it's effect can have profound consequences for the game.

You know what else can? A lascannon. A lascannon can be used to kill the tank that is sitting on the objective in the final turn. It can wound or destroy any model in the game AND you can get 2 for the price of one Lash Sorceror (2 Obliterators).

What defence do you have against lascannons? Sure some models have invulnerable saves, but most don't.

Every time you use the Lash of Submission on it's own you gain absolutely 0 Victory points. You might deny your opponent victory points, you might put the enemy unit into a position where your other units can get more victory points, but the Lash in and of itself nets you no points. So the variables are: Pass a psychic test. Roll to see how far you can or must more the unit. Roll to hit/wound/save either in shooting or CC or both. Those are quite a few variables, and the first one risks hurting yourself.

As for the complaint that Lash is unprecedented because it lets you move your opponents models and screw up his plans, that's not true. I've been moving my opponents models and screwing up his plans for years: breaking them in CC, causing them to run after 25% casualties, and Tank shocking his units.

There's a lot to say for the lash. Used well it's great. It screws up your opponents plans, but don't forget YOU have a plan too, and plans usually go right out the window pretty fast.

Wyndstar
16-10-2007, 19:18
I have done 6 chaos battle reports, and in several of them I used lash extensively. Reading the battles might help you see how it can be used in a real battle environment. See:

http://warseer.com/forums/40k-battle-reports/105416-5-chaos-v-chaos-battle-reports.html

AND

http://warseer.com/forums/40k-battle-reports/106317-chaos-v-tyranids-battle-report-illustrated.html


I've played more games with the new chaos then I've had time to do full battle reports for. For me, lash has become an integral part of my strategy vs. infantry armies. In fact, not getting lash's off against marines led to my first loss as I really started to depend on it by the time I got to that game. You can use it to ensure charges by your best troops, or keep nasty things away from you (Avatars of Kain, Deceivers, etc.) indefinitely. I tried to use lash as part of a vindicator combo... for me, that never really paid off as big as I would like.

Lash in my opinion becomes an essential game mechanic for an army that excels at killing things within 12" but doesn't have a lot of speed. It is versatile, and that helps its power. However, I don't think it is any more broken than say Skimmers Moving Fast. It is annoying to face, perhaps, but it is beatable, comes with weaknesses, and is now just one more part of the metagame. Against a talented opponent the 24" range and LOS restrictions mean that even without psychic defense you might only get one or two off before your princes are neutralized.

Through 12 games using lash and facing it, here is my experience (note, anecdotal, feel free to ignore these observations):

- HtH monstrous creatures are even worse than they were before. Only being able to move 6" pretty much means you will never get into hand to hand ever ever. These were already pretty bad, so I don't think the people out there with 8 HtH kitted TMCs are gonna start complaining.

- Elite infantry is very susceptible. Trying to keep those harlies out at 18" and rely on Veil? Too bad my prince can plop down right next to you and shove you into my twin linked rapid fire weapons. Termies, harlies, stealers, etc. often move on the ground and represent a lot of points for your opponents. These units are now child's play to neutralize... and that isn't necessarily a bad thing. Move them forward, move them back, they don't have a lot of defense and you have a lot of options.

- Mech is even better. Go figure, GW likes selling tanks. Fish o fury, mech eldar, heck, even razor/rhino marines give little thought to lash, until they get to where they are going. Crisis suits have yet another reason to jump-shoot-jump and sit out of sight. Lining up against 15-20 vehicles as chaos is now a real pain. Your lash doesn't work, and you have a lot less anti tank. 6 venerable dreads and 9 tornadoes in a 2k army? Yeah, I haven't found an answer for that out of the chaos codex yet, and lash makes no difference to that sort of opponent.

- Horde infantry - well it depends on how the horde works. If it hits you all at once, then lash can disrupt the battle plan. If it is designed to come at you in wave after wave, lash doesn't really help. If you face 90 bases of ripper swarms, sure you can push two of them back, but there are still about 210 wounds that are gonna make it to you on turn 3. IMO horde infantry got a little worse in the metagame... but was fairly rare anyway. (Generally speaking, hordes are expensive and time consuming to paint. If they were the best armies they would still be kind of rare, and they are not the best armies)


As far as I can tell, from the metagame, lash has really only one effect. HtH slow monsters and horde infantry were made a little worse, but those were rare and ineffective armies already. Mech got even better... and I think it is because GW wants to sell tanks. The only effect is on elite infantry armies. Now elite infantry either needs a psychic defense, or it needs to be played much more carefully taking lash into account. This will probably effect the tournament scene a little, but its one of the many changes that the community will digest and move on.

Speed is important in 4th edition, and lash is one of the best speed weapons chaos has. That is why it is a "no-brainer". If you can cover speed elsewhere in your army, you might not take it. Or if you want to make a single god themed army that isn't slaanesh. Lash will make it into tournaments because it can be a pivotal part of the chaos strategy. Is it beatable? Definitely. Is it powerful? Absolutely. Is it the end of 40k as we know it? Not even close.

Now go buy some more tanks :D

- Wyndstar

Gorbad Ironclaw
16-10-2007, 19:50
Every time you use the Lash of Submission on it's own you gain absolutely 0 Victory points.


That's a silly way to look at it. Who cares what each individual action does, as long as you win.

Slaanesh in WFB also have a number of spells that dictates the enemies movement, and just a single one of those at the right time can be a gamewinner.

So yes, Lash isn't going to win the game just by having it. But by using it in coordination with the rest of the army, and being clever about it it's very, very powerful.

Grouping units together for a vindicator shoot is really the least of it's abilities. That's not going to be it's real power I think. But rather disrupting assault, setting up your own assaults, seriously reducing enemy firepower by moving his firebase etc.

Meriwether
16-10-2007, 20:39
Am I the only person who finds this entire thread hilarious? I started playing EC about 5 months ago, before I had ever heard of Lash...

They nerfed the heck out of daemonettes and made my two havoc squads of four blastmasters each unplayable, and people are complaining about something good?

Sure, lash is tough. So are a lot of other things in a lot of other codices. Sheesh.

Cheers,

Meri

Penmarch'
16-10-2007, 21:37
No, you're not alone here Meriwether.

Lash is quite good if used properly but it hardly compensates for the things we lost.
Still, parading a unit in front of 3 x 6 Noise marines and two or three obliterators is quite fun. Clean up with terminators or Daemon Prince if neccesary.
I always keep the Vindicator for last since it's the least accurate. Usually it doesn't have to fire ....

qwertywraith
16-10-2007, 22:56
That's a silly way to look at it. Who cares what each individual action does, as long as you win.

Slaanesh in WFB also have a number of spells that dictates the enemies movement, and just a single one of those at the right time can be a gamewinner.

So yes, Lash isn't going to win the game just by having it. But by using it in coordination with the rest of the army, and being clever about it it's very, very powerful.

Grouping units together for a vindicator shoot is really the least of it's abilities. That's not going to be it's real power I think. But rather disrupting assault, setting up your own assaults, seriously reducing enemy firepower by moving his firebase etc.

I was being parodic, and all your ideas about the use for the Lash have been discussed. I acknowledge them. I approve of them. Are they unbalanced? That is the question.

The issue is that moving enemy units is an interesting ability that is not necessarily unbalanced because the alternative to "disrupting assault" is kill the enemy unit that wants to assault you, and the alternative to "setting up your own assaults" using lash is moving your units to set up assaults. "Moving his firebase" using lash's alternative is "blow them up".

I'm saying that everything Lash does is secondary to what you do already. It enhances other aspects of your army, which is conceivably what an army should do: units should work in concert with each other. Yes it is powerful if used correctly, but so are TMCs, Falcons, Dark Eldar Raiders, etc.

qwertywraith
16-10-2007, 23:01
I'd also like to add that in Warhammer Fantasy movement is much more restricted and regimented that in 40K. Slaanesh Lore in fantasy is so powerful for this reason, but that is why all Fantasy armies can buy magic defence. In 40K, moving a unit 7" backwards can be effective, but it doesn't expose the unit to side or rear charges, or lose the unit movement because it has to wheel or change facing.

Polonius
16-10-2007, 23:59
One thing to remember about Lash: it's better in the hands of a better player.

A skilled and clever general will be able to find countless nifty uses for the lash, giving him the proverbial ace up his sleeve. It's a highly tactical tool, one that can influence the game far beyond a single unit.

I think we'll learn to love how great lash is for the long, long life of this Codex.

Meriwether
17-10-2007, 15:39
...and for some historical perspective, back in the Rogue Trader days there was a psychic power that allowed you to completely take over an enemy unit (vehicle, dready, squad, whatever) for *the rest of the game* -- not only moving it but shooting and assaulting with it as well. It had a short range, I think 18" or something.

While that power was very broken and it's good to see it gone all these long years, I'm encouraged to see something similar to it sneaking back into the game. Why _couldn't_ a psychic power be used to cause a squad to shoot at another (friendly) squad erroneously? Or cause them to assault friendlies by tricking their minds?

This, to me, seems like a step in the right direction, as long as it doesn't go overboard.

Killmaimburn
17-10-2007, 15:57
Well there is always gift of chaos;), see all those strange raw vs story rebuild arguments about whether a spawn rebuilds into a necron (was great fun even if was very silly)