PDA

View Full Version : Are Terminators too weak?



UncleCrazy
16-10-2007, 19:37
I have DA and I am building a GK army heavy on the terminator side. But I was thinking are they that good? Now against shooting they are ok because lascannons are not cheap. But in H2H they die quick. Everyone who uses termies says don't get them in to H2H. What do you think are they too weak or are they just fine? I have mixed feelings about them. Vs shooting I think that they are where they should be, but in H2H I think that terminators should be able to use a power fist (hammer too) at normal speed and not strike last, in much the same way they can move and shoot a heavy weapon.

spacemonkey
16-10-2007, 19:42
in H2H I think that terminators should be able to use a power fist (hammer too) at normal speed and not strike last
They don't have to use the power fist (or hammer) and can strike with their normal initiave (but won't ignore armor obviously).

Penitent
16-10-2007, 19:44
Terminators are just fine. I shudder to think how powerful they would be if they could strike at initiative with power fists, or how much more they would cost points-wise.

Besides, allowing termies to strike at initiative would make fists a no-brainer choice, and I rather like the variety and character of the other CC weapons available to them.

It always helps to support them with other units.

RampagingRavener
16-10-2007, 19:44
I think people may be using Terminators in combat against the wrong units, or are throwing them in unsupported. Terminators should be used to take down Monsterous Creatures and other such powerful; hose them with fire, charge and suck up the one or two models you lose when they strike, then kill them with massed Powerfists. Or send them in against Infantry with a supporting sqaud to stop the Terminators being overwhelmed. But primarily I'd say regular Terminators are a shooty squad which can assault to finish off whatever they've mauled.

Just take Assault Terminators, if you want to mess things up in hand-to-hand with them. If you want to strike fast, you've got Lightening Claws. If you want to strike hard, you've got the Hammers and Storm Sheilds to keep them alive long enough to do so.

Democratus
16-10-2007, 19:46
I'm not so sure that they are too weak, but I do think they should be toughness 4(5). Thus power fists will still wreak havoc against them, but power weapons will have a more difficult time carving their armored hides.

Maximuspandem
16-10-2007, 19:54
Are you mad?

I would give my left arm for a unit like terminators in other armies.

Keichi246
16-10-2007, 19:58
Are you mad?

I would give my left arm for a unit like terminators in other armies.

Nah. Far easier to give someone ELSE'S left arm...

Termies are ok. As a long time veteran Deathwing player - it can ocassionally look like they are weak (thinks back to the time a IG infantry squad managed to kill a 6 man termie squad with lasguns - OH the horror!), but overall - they are pretty useful.

Free Spirit
16-10-2007, 20:05
Terminators are fine the way they are. They might seem weak to some because of the huge fire magnet they are. The one weakness they have is numbers. With a very low armour save they are pretty funky, problem is when you get numbers you are bound to get a 1 on those dice rolls. In h2h you should avoid that because that is just their weakness. Like all units they have their strengths and weaknesses ... except marines because they are OK overall.

Tulun
16-10-2007, 20:07
That would be *way* too good. Why even bother with power weapons if your fist could hit in INI order?

Terminators are fine. You just pay dearly if you screw up with them, or have a string of bad saves.. they are an expensive unit. Use them properly, and they kick all ass.

NallTWD
16-10-2007, 20:29
See, the problem is, people KNOW how many points they're worth. I've countered this by actively spending more points on them.

Terminator Assault Squad: (5) Furious Charge, Lightning Claws (215 points)
Land Raider Crusader: (265 points)
Chaplain: Terminator Armor, Master Crafted Crozius, Power Fist (165 points)

Grand total? 645 points. Yep, and I rock that in a 1500 point game without question. Why? The amount of firepower you have to put on the squad is mindless. Plus, you have to be bold as hell with it. Only once in my entire career gaming with that squad has it been popped on turn 1 and even then, the terminators left managed to get into combat with the chappy and wipe what they touched.

Scary, fire magnet, unstoppable murder machine. 20 S5/I5 fully re-rollable (hit/wound) attacks plus 6 S4 or 8 attacks from the chappy? Whatever it touches will die without question. I've been tricked into assaulting little squads at times, but when they hit the right target, it's an unstoppable monster that cannot be stopped.

Not to mention, the crusader is a horrifying tool on the battlefield in itself. On the assault, I typically charge one squad and open fire on another. I've never really come across anything that soaks it up...

Thoth62
16-10-2007, 20:34
I'm not so sure that they are too weak, but I do think they should be toughness 4(5). Thus power fists will still wreak havoc against them, but power weapons will have a more difficult time carving their armored hides.

You can do that. Chaos Terminators with an Icon of Nurgle. Have fun.

Kahadras
16-10-2007, 21:22
I don't think Terminators are too weak at the present moment but I do feel they may be slightly overcosted. At the present moment with the metagaming against MEq there is a lot of AP 2 weaponry out there (aka plasma guns and lazcannon) Terminators are going to have a hard time. If plasma became AP 3 then Terminators would have a much better time I think.

Kahadras

BrainFireBob
16-10-2007, 21:34
I don't think Terminators are too weak at the present moment but I do feel they may be slightly overcosted. At the present moment with the metagaming against MEq there is a lot of AP 2 weaponry out there (aka plasma guns and lazcannon) Terminators are going to have a hard time. If plasma became AP 3 then Terminators would have a much better time I think.

Kahadras

This is the real problem. I don't think there's a problem with Terminator design, as posited by the original poster, but rather with the metagame.

boogle
16-10-2007, 21:43
To be honest, they are good if you give them the right tools, for Assault, LC all the way, for Tarpit, TH/SS, or PF/2xHF, for Shooty, 2xAC (no brainer) or 2x Cyclone, for AT Chainfists, the right tools for the right job will serve you well with Termies

Thoth62
16-10-2007, 21:48
And of course, going hand in hand with that is to engage the correct opponents. What's a terminators biggest advantage? It's the 2+ armour save. So why on earth would you pit them against a unit that has a multitude of powerweapons? They'll get chewed up almost as quickly as a regular unit of marines (taking into account the 5++) for twice, or more than twice the cost. They are an expensive and effective unit. Face them off against something that you know they're going to beat.

Wyndstar
16-10-2007, 22:16
It depends on what you are talking about. Deathwing and Grey Knights terminators... yeah, they aren't quite as good as their pts. 30 Chaos terminators? There might not be a better 900 pts in the game. Sure, I always play with mine so I have marks and fists, so they don't come in quite that cheap (usually closer to 1100), but that is an 1100 pts that almost no one is going to take down.

What does a loyalist player have to pay for an equivalent number of terminators but with worse stats? Minimum 1200 pts, but you will buy assault cannons too. As assault cannon platforms, 5 man terminator squads barely are worth their pts. Any other combination is overcosted for the loyalists. If you want good terminators, go for chaos.

- Wyndstar

Khornies & milk
16-10-2007, 22:36
It depends on what you are talking about. Deathwing and Grey Knights terminators... yeah, they aren't quite as good as their pts. 30 Chaos terminators? There might not be a better 900 pts in the game. Sure, I always play with mine so I have marks and fists, so they don't come in quite that cheap (usually closer to 1100), but that is an 1100 pts that almost no one is going to take down.

What does a loyalist player have to pay for an equivalent number of terminators but with worse stats? Minimum 1200 pts, but you will buy assault cannons too. As assault cannon platforms, 5 man terminator squads barely are worth their pts. Any other combination is overcosted for the loyalists. If you want good terminators, go for chaos.

- Wyndstar

But He's not going Chaos - He is of the DA & GKT variety.
In your list I said that the second GKT Unit is a bit excessive at 1.5K., but there is nothing wrong with GKT's as a whole. They are imo the best Termi's in the game, albeit a bit on the dear side - they should be 40 pts.
Str 6 PW @ I - SB's as standard - ain't nothing wrong with that.
In my Apoc list I have 40 of them:evilgrin:

Gen.Steiner
16-10-2007, 23:13
I play Deathwing on the side.

It's won 90% of its games.

No, Terminators are not too weak. 2+/5+ saves? Power fists, lightning claws, heavy flamers, assault cannons, cyclones, thunder hammers... not the tools of the weak!

paddyalexander
16-10-2007, 23:24
Grey Knight Terminaters armed with nemisis force weapons & strike at inititive 4 with str6 power weapons so that shouldn't be an issue in that army. For their current points terminators are good but not toataly overpowered. Give the str8 powerfist attacks striking at inititive and you'd have to add 20 points or so.

Grand Warlord
16-10-2007, 23:25
I take the Lightning Claw deathwing termies and play hide and seek til i can get close then ... add water and *poof* doom and gloom!

Ravenheart
16-10-2007, 23:31
They are ok; but mostly they pale in comparison to other units that you could take instead.
Also the aformentoned high availabilty of AP2 weapons and the new deep strike rules hurt them a bit.

Gen.Steiner
16-10-2007, 23:34
the aformentoned high availabilty of AP2 weapons ... hurt them a bit.

Your faith is lacking.

It's the Deathwing mantra:

CONCENTRATE your fire! (to destroy your enemy)
Stay OUT of Assault! (to preserve your firepower)
BELIEVE in the Emperor! (to pass your 5+ invulnerables)

It's true. The stronger your belief, the more often you pass those 5+ saves.

Glavemaster
16-10-2007, 23:49
What Steiner said. It doesn't work with flak armour, though... :(

Gen.Steiner
16-10-2007, 23:51
That, my dear sir, is because Flak armour is made of compressed cardboard whilst Terminator armour is constructed by hand by blind master artisans who each spend their entire lives forging and rolling (by hand) the special laminate-composite armour suits before finally dedicating the finished Tactical Dreadnought units to the God-Machine with their dying breath.

fwacho
17-10-2007, 00:10
The choas Termies have the price down perfect. DA termies really are too expensive points wise as are loyalist in general. I have a buddy that plays deathwing. His problem is that is dice seem to roll a disportionate amount of ones. the man never fails a leadership check but his termies drop like flies.

Bunnahabhain
17-10-2007, 00:36
I'm also of the the opinion that terminators, especially loyalist ones, are slightly overcosted in the current metagame.
This is entirely due to the scarcity of AP3 weaponry, so people have no choice but to load up on AP2 and power weapons to beat power armour. Fix this, terminators get better.

This said, Deathwing assualt, or Lysanderwing is still very very scary. I have one turn to respond to them, and that's the battle won or lost. If the plasma takes down more Terminators than guardsmen firing it, I'm normally happy enough.

Reinholt
17-10-2007, 00:50
I have not found the DA termies to be overpointed.

Keep in mind, compared to Chaos, you are:

- Fearless
- Deep Striking on Turn 1
- Bringing a Character in Terminator Armor With You On Said Deep Strike

You did bring a character, right?

Ozendorph
17-10-2007, 00:55
I feel neither afraid nor overly compelled to field my Terminators. I think they're about where they ought to be.

EmperorEternalXIX
17-10-2007, 01:08
It depends on what you are talking about. Deathwing and Grey Knights terminators... yeah, they aren't quite as good as their pts. 30 Chaos terminators? There might not be a better 900 pts in the game. Sure, I always play with mine so I have marks and fists, so they don't come in quite that cheap (usually closer to 1100), but that is an 1100 pts that almost no one is going to take down.

What does a loyalist player have to pay for an equivalent number of terminators but with worse stats? Minimum 1200 pts, but you will buy assault cannons too. As assault cannon platforms, 5 man terminator squads barely are worth their pts. Any other combination is overcosted for the loyalists. If you want good terminators, go for chaos.

- Wyndstar Don't forget that most new age terminators only get a five man squad and one heavy weapon, making them massively easier to overwhelm with fire and usually any MC or decent IC will have enough armor-crushing attacks to obliterate the whole squad or torrent the one valuable model in it.

They really should be T4(5). You actually LOSE things as a loyalist terminator (you lose the CC attack from having two CC weapons, for example).

This is a big part of why I threw away my Dark Angels codex.

TheWarSmith
17-10-2007, 01:44
I fully support making plasma AP3.

Then again, I fully support having save modifiers rather than AP, like in fantasy.

Outlaw289
17-10-2007, 02:10
Terminator armor should confer a +1 toughness OR strength bonus IMHO(leaning more towards toughness). And no, I don't play any kind of Marines or use Terminators. I just think they should be harder to kill. As it is now, use any kind of AP2 weapon against them and you're in the money.

Maybe +1 wound when wearing Terminator armor, to represent the first "deadly" blast exposing the armor and the second actually killing them? Would make them more resilient against plasma

HowlingBanshee23
17-10-2007, 02:30
So would using cover. ;)

sebster
17-10-2007, 02:35
And of course, going hand in hand with that is to engage the correct opponents. What's a terminators biggest advantage? It's the 2+ armour save. So why on earth would you pit them against a unit that has a multitude of powerweapons? They'll get chewed up almost as quickly as a regular unit of marines (taking into account the 5++) for twice, or more than twice the cost. They are an expensive and effective unit. Face them off against something that you know they're going to beat.

The problem there is that the majority of units that justify taking a high priced assault unit are generally capable of ignoring armour saves. All those power fists look ideal for taking out an MC, but you won't have much of a squad left once you get to attack. There's also a problem with terminator mobility, you aren't always the one getting to choose what gets charged. Terminator assault is good, but the range of targets that are ideal for powerfists that don't auto-beat armour is pretty small.

Techron 2.0
17-10-2007, 03:33
most armies now have the option to take something in the unit that allows no saves in Close combat they are amazing against shooting but a little bit of a magnent for heavy fire. i think the termies should still have a 4+ armor but role on 2d6. and only special things can negate the save. I mean there termies give em T5 or something. there just marines with two attacks 2+ armor and 5+ invuln. i just throw pariahs at termies and make them cry!

TheWarSmith
17-10-2007, 05:12
chaos terminators are MUCH better IMO. The option for weaponry is just far superior. They get sliced in close combat so easily because even a dinky guard sgt. w/ a power weapon goes first, and he can kill 1-2 before they get a chance to attack.

Chaos termies(i think in the new book too?) always started with basic power weapons, then upgraded to power fists/chain fists/lightning claws(but couldn't take a pair i think?)

New Tzeentch terminators seem to be the marine destroyers, with ap3 stormbolters(or did only pistols and normal bolters get inferno?)

Tulun
17-10-2007, 05:15
most armies now have the option to take something in the unit that allows no saves in Close combat they are amazing against shooting but a little bit of a magnent for heavy fire. i think the termies should still have a 4+ armor but role on 2d6. and only special things can negate the save. I mean there termies give em T5 or something. there just marines with two attacks 2+ armor and 5+ invuln. i just throw pariahs at termies and make them cry!

You forget each has a Power weapon, Power fist, Lighting Claw(s), Thunder Hammers or Stormfists...

As well as their weapons are far better than a standard marine (outside of special and heavy).

That save would be completely broken in 40k terms. IF there were armor save modifiers, maybe...

Penitent
17-10-2007, 05:15
chaos terminators are MUCH better IMO. The option for weaponry is just far superior. They get sliced in close combat so easily because even a dinky guard sgt. w/ a power weapon goes first, and he can kill 1-2 before they get a chance to attack.

Chaos termies(i think in the new book too?) always started with basic power weapons, then upgraded to power fists/chain fists/lightning claws(but couldn't take a pair i think?)

New Tzeentch terminators seem to be the marine destroyers, with ap3 stormbolters(or did only pistols and normal bolters get inferno?)

If I remember right, the inferno bolts are only available to 1k Sons squads; Termies of MoT don't get access to them.

TheOverlord
17-10-2007, 05:36
Plasma weaponry should stay ap2, terminator should become 1+ save, so that nothing less than melta weaponry would take it down :D

As the rules say a 1 is always a fail, it works out to be almost the same thing, except you can save from plasma and make the terminator THAT much more terrifying :D

Of course, then again Terminators are fine as the are, as I play chaos and cheap 2+ save with power weapons are just fiiiiine :D

edit : Penitent is right, inferno bolts are only conferred to the Thousand Sons choice, not a unit marked with the Icon of Almighty Tzen'netch. :D They DO however get a 4+ invul save, and that's almost as good.

HowlingBanshee23
17-10-2007, 07:45
Didn't someone point out that you could take Terminators with power-fists and they could just dispense with the fisting when it came to enemies with power weapons?

I've very recently ordered a Terminator squad for an army that will do double-duty as Chaos/Codex/Dark Angels - I figured arm three with power fists and storm-bolter/combi-bolter/heavy-flamer, and one Champion with a power weapon and storm-bolter/combi-bolter. Then the Chaos Lord/Loyalist Commander would have a master-crafted power weapon or daemon weapon. It could be a four-dude squad of Chaos Termies or a 4-dude squad of command Termies. Relatively cheap, flexible, and hitty.

Kveld-Ulf
17-10-2007, 07:57
The thing about terminators is they're darn hard to kill off, and they have some amazing capabilities. Yes they cost quite a bit, but I'd say in any case of 1500+ battles they're really worth their points.

Upon reviewing the Space Marines Codex, their terminators are worse than Chaos for a number of reasons.

Space Marine: 40 pts.
Chaos: 30 pts.

Space Marine's start with a Powerfist, which can be a blessing or a curse. Have to check the rules, but think you can attack without using the Powerfist. Someone mentioned it on here, and I read it somewhere else earlier.. hmm.

Space Marines have a lot less weapons to choose from for upgrades. However the ability to have Furious Charge or Tank Hunters is a very good one.

With the added ability to teleport, Terminators are to me one of the most powerful Elite choices in the game. They're an extremely capable force depending on how you outfit them, are able to have a Land Raider dedicated transport, and can popup near anywhere with their Deep Strike. Add this with the ability to move and fire heavy weapons, and you've got one hell of a tough nut to crack. A 2/5+ nut in particular.

Sovereign
17-10-2007, 08:16
I think SM Termies are just a bit too expensive at 40 pts. I'd rather see them at 35 pts.

Kveld-Ulf
17-10-2007, 08:19
I'm guessing the reason they are more is because of their Powerfists. When will GW learn that we only want Powerfists if we get to choose them. Give someone something useful and they'll find a way to not want to use it anymore.

Maybe the Veteran Abilities also had something to do with it. Although I can't see how something would benefit from the +1I on charge with a Powerfist anyways. The Strength bonus is also paled in comparison to the doubling done by the Powerfist.

This is why the Ruinous Powers are a great choice, they bargained with the dark gods of GW to get cheaper models.

Gen.Steiner
17-10-2007, 09:39
Terminators are ace, and I like their powerfists. Why say no to S8 armour-save-ignoring attacks? :p

Techron 2.0
17-10-2007, 12:05
i think termies should come with power weapons standard. or mkae themw ith power fists but since there in termie oarmor make them strike in Initiative order i think that would work well. and chaos termies can take pairs of lightning claws its expensive but they can.

Shadowphrakt
17-10-2007, 12:11
Why, when reading the title of this thread, did my mind shout "NO!!!!!!!". If you use them properly they are brilliant, and with the right support, they should be able to take down a whole army. If you deep strike them with, say a couple of tactical squads to provide fire support or an assault squad or two to charge infantry, while the terminators charge any armour of monstrous creatures, then they should be basically unstoppable, unless you have diabolical dice rolls.

Captain Micha
17-10-2007, 13:12
Terminators problems are usually their users.

From what I've seen my assault termies through with my bts, they can be out right godly. They are some tough units to use (like many 'advanced units' such as wraith, flayed ones, vespid) but man the rewards when you do employ them properly are disgusting!

Gen.Steiner
17-10-2007, 14:06
Terminators problems are usually their users.

Hear, hear!

pookie
17-10-2007, 14:10
This is why the Ruinous Powers are a great choice, they bargained with the dark gods of GW to get cheaper models.

but they dont come equiped witha PF as standard and if you choose this option they are point for point the same.

superknijn
17-10-2007, 14:24
And don't forget that Loyalist Terminators can get Assault Cannons for less then Traitor Terminators get Reaper Autocannons. Also, Loyalist Terminators can get a 4+ invulnerable save at a much lower cost than Traitor Terminators, and they'll have Thunder Hammers instead of Powerfists.

Traitor Terminators do have +1 Leadership, which sometimes makes all the difference.

pookie
17-10-2007, 14:41
Also, Loyalist Terminators can get a 4+ invulnerable save at a much lower cost than Traitor Terminators, and they'll have Thunder Hammers instead of Powerfists.

Traitor Terminators do have +1 Leadership, which sometimes makes all the difference.

but only in CC and at the loss of ranged weps, IMO Chaos termies get the better 4+ inv save even at the cost of it.

Thoth62
17-10-2007, 15:16
Agreed. Tzeentch terminators get that 4++ against shooting, and still get ranged weapons as well. Not to mention that Chaos can get squad numbers up to 10, whereas the max for loyalist is 5.

The_Outsider
17-10-2007, 16:31
Spoilers: Terminator armour is still the "best" armour in the game for cost.

2+ save, 5+ inv. and +1A for the price most HQ's pay for any invulnerable save, let alone the other benefits.

You couldn't do much better unless T armour came with storm bolter and power weapon.

BrainFireBob
17-10-2007, 20:54
The only problem with "standard" imperial terminators is that the entire unit strikes with fists.

If they could swap for power weapons or lightning claws, they'd be awesome. Wait- DAs can do that . . .

Mr Zephy
17-10-2007, 22:11
Nope. The problem is not enough AP3 weaponry.

Wyndstar
17-10-2007, 22:21
If they could swap for power weapons or lightning claws, they'd be awesome. Wait- DAs can do that . . .

But DAs can only take one assault cannon per squad. 30 chaos terminators is rock solid no matter what mark you give them. They aren't invincible, but they are some of the best points you can spend out of the new chaos codex, and they are far and away better than the loyalist terminators.

For 33 pts. I can get +1 attack and +1 leadership to the loyalists. Everyone doesn't need to be fists, as long as I have a few in the mix. That gives me the flexibility to wipe the floor at initiative with my power weapons against some opponents, but still have loads of power fist attacks if I'm going against something tough.

Sure, loyalists can take terms with lightning claws. Can they take a unit that gets 60 lightning claw attacks on a charge?? Loyalists can get 40 lightning claw attacks on a charge for 400 pts, chaos can get 60 for 530 pts, AND have better leadership.

Thunder hammer + storm shield for 40 pts. is no match for 33.5 pt. Tzeentch terms that get the increased invulnerable save against both shooting and hand to hand, have guns, and still will strike first against those thunder hammer boys.

I mean, have any of you actually tried to fight loyalist terms against the new chaos terms? I have, in one game, and it was a slaughter. Loyalist terms simply cannot compete against their dark cousins.

Sure, sometimes terminators do poorly if controlled by a poor general. But it is a matter of getting your points out of them in a combination of kills and overall battlefield effect. The new chaos terms are much easier to use because they are all at once cheaper and more powerful. Not unbeatable, but cheaper and more powerful.

- Wyndstar

Gen.Steiner
17-10-2007, 22:23
The only problem with "standard" imperial terminators is that the entire unit strikes with fists.

Wrong! Sergeant has a power sword as standard.

Purgator Sovereign
17-10-2007, 22:28
Not to mention that Chaos can get squad numbers up to 10, whereas the max for loyalist is 5.


No, it's not. I just checked. New codex, too, there is no mistake there. Sergeant and 3-9 terminators.

Galatan
17-10-2007, 22:31
Terminators problems are usually their users.


I would agree with that anytime:D.

A charging unit of terminators can be devastating. 5 man strong insta killing madness, sure they strike last, but try to beat that T4 2+ armour save. It can be a real pain in the ass sometimes. Termies are hard as nails and can take lots of punishment. Their current points cost too much? no..I would say GW got it just right on this one.


Not to mention that Chaos can get squad numbers up to 10, whereas the max for loyalist is 5.
Only dark angels and probably blood angels have max 5 man termie squads, but that is because they are aimed towards the codex astartes whiich says that terminator squads should be 5 man strong.

Cheers,
Galatan

Kveld-Ulf
18-10-2007, 00:44
but they dont come equiped witha PF as standard and if you choose this option they are point for point the same.

Yes but at least you get the option of whether or not to have a PF. I much prefer that. Although they are extremely powerful, they have their disadvantages. Sometimes it's better to just have a PW.

HowlingBanshee23
18-10-2007, 00:46
Or h/v a mix of PFs and PWs!

The_Outsider
18-10-2007, 01:12
However do chaos terminators have ATSKNF? methinks not and that is worth so many points.

knighthawke70
18-10-2007, 01:16
i think termies are fine the way they are. both for imperium and chaos. the only thing wish is that you do get a choice of PW, PF, or LC for everyone.

pookie
18-10-2007, 10:18
However do chaos terminators have ATSKNF? methinks not and that is worth so many points.

no they dont, no CSM get it, its a SM rule only.

Gen.Steiner
18-10-2007, 11:10
the only thing wish is that you do get a choice of PW, PF, or LC for everyone.

You do, they're called Assault Terminators. :p