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View Full Version : Can any of you justify taking Asurmen?



boogaloo
17-10-2007, 03:50
I just had a little spastastic episode of how sweet Asurmen would be until i realised no wait, he can't do anything crazy. he costs more points than almost any ten man squad in the army, and has less, lower strength attacks than the rest of his counter parts. Is Defend, Bladestorm, and a Dire sword and a 4+invuln save really worth more points than Karandras's Stealth, fleet, infiltrate, and 8 x S9 power weapon attacks on the charge, or Maugen ra's 5 x S6 power weapon attacks on the charge with a 36" S6 Heavy4 pinning rending, fast shot/crack shot shooting insanity? Anybody out there use Asurmen and how has that gone for you?

Penitent
17-10-2007, 04:42
There was a related thread on this somewhere recently, but: I would ask whether *any* of the phoenix lords are worth their cost. In I believe each of their cases, you could field a full ten-man aspect squad for the cost of the relevant phoenix lord, and get more wounds and shots/attacks in CC.

While I wouldn't expect the Phoenix Lords to be drastically reduced in points, I feel they need to be more competitively priced to be worth taking.

Cirion
17-10-2007, 04:53
I can't really see myself fielding any of the Phoenix lords for a game, both because of my dislike of special characters and the big points cost i'd rather spend on something else. The PL I would be most likely to field though is probably Maugan Ra, just because 5 s6 pinning rending shots a turn is fun.

So in short, would I field Asurmen? no.

Monospot
17-10-2007, 04:58
I would. Why?

Because he is a great looking model with interesting fluff.

And I don't play tournaments. And there is no money on the line when I play. And my pride is a negotiable commodity at best.

BrainFireBob
17-10-2007, 06:53
He's more surviveable than a Wraithlord, run the math. Single toughest thing in the Eldar army after tooled-up Falcons.

He's worth it just to annoy your opponent.

The Orange
17-10-2007, 07:01
He's the only PL with a Inv. save and it's a 4+ at that. No he does not have the offensive power of the other phoenix lords, but he makes up for it by being a little tougher then most of them. After all that 2+ save is useless against anything with a power weapon. And IIRC doesn't he have something like re-roll missed "to hit" and/or re-roll missed "to wound" in hth?

Orbital
17-10-2007, 08:25
There was a related thread on this somewhere recently, but: I would ask whether *any* of the phoenix lords are worth their cost. In I believe each of their cases, you could field a full ten-man aspect squad for the cost of the relevant phoenix lord, and get more wounds and shots/attacks in CC.

While I wouldn't expect the Phoenix Lords to be drastically reduced in points, I feel they need to be more competitively priced to be worth taking.

I don't even count the points when I take a Phoenix Lord. I just choose one and I go with it. Why? Because, for me, Phoenix Lords aren't for maximizing the effectiveness of the army. I take them so that my army has flavor, so that it has a character. Sometimes when I'm looking at that army list, with all its various units and wargear and weapons loadout, I miss a sense of theme or of drama. Sometimes my lists look more like carefully doled-out rations than a force of character and personality about which I can later tell tall tales. I put the Phoenix Lord in because he has a story, he has a character, he embodies some spirit of the Eldar race that gives the list a direction and theme.

What's more, the 40k gaming experience for me is less about numbers and math and the percentages behind X weapon cracking Y number of avZ vehicles per turn. To me, it's about walking away from the game saying "OMG did you see how Maugen Ra took down a Land Raider BY HIMSELF???" or "I thought Asurmen was DEAD when all those Marines went after him... but for 4 turns he kept them at bay and he STILL lived till the end of the game!" That's the stuff I remember. That's the stuff which makes the game fun for me.

So... maybe the Phoenix Lords don't maximize the army's effectiveness on a purely mathematical basis, but when Karandras sneaks up and ends up wearing your Veteran Sargent's butt for a hat... that's so worth it to me. :)

superknijn
17-10-2007, 08:52
How can Karandras get S9?
Since he can only use one weapon at a time, can't he just only use his scorpion's claw for S8?

Fuegan is also one though Phoenix lord, with FnP, and S5 power weapon, and S+2d6+1 armour penetration. Put him in a Falcon, send him to the enemy lines and he's bound to kill all large objects (Land Raiders, Monoliths, Terminators, unlucky Chapter Masters/Chaos Lords) in sight.

Sarigar
17-10-2007, 09:32
The only issue with what you suggested with Fuegan is that you can destroy large tanks better with 5 Fire Dragons for a fraction of the points spent on Fuegan.

I've not run any PL yet, but Asurman or Maugan Ra are the two that stick out that I'd want to use.

Karandaras has a S8 Powerfist. Personally, it doesn't matter how many attacks he gets b/c he attacks last. IC's with powerfists are nearly a cardinal sin in 40K.

I do agree the PL needed to be priced a little more competitively. My Ulthwe army has Eldrad and the Avatar for HQ's and I just don't see anything in the list to make me change up my HQ choices.

Aphex Geek
17-10-2007, 09:57
I recently Played a game of 7 samurai (all phoenix lords and eldrad) against an equal points of guard and inquisition allies..

One of the most fun games i have played and highlighted some very cool features of the lords...

Karandras Snuck up and scattered a platoon in a single turn and subsequently fell to a counter charge...

Baharroths deepstrike decimated the opposing stormtroopers before falling to sentinal scouts..

Maugen Ra Kept the horde at bay with his exquisite shooting, crippling sentinals and squads before finally being over come

Jain Zar fell just short of combat to massed firepower (a nice kill zone set up by my opponent)

Eldrad took out the Inquisitor then dominated the psychic battlefield, spelling doom for many mon-keigh till he was outnumbered and slain.

Feugan Strode through an onslaught of fire, not failing his fnp rolls, destroyed several transports with either his pike or axe and was last to fall on the field of battle...

Asurmen...
...
...
...
...Died first to a Vindicares lucky hellfire round followed by a shield breaker...

a very entertaining game and one i suggest people try.. object for the lords? try to survive as long as possible and kill as many as you can.. in the end i managed 6 turns and half my opponents force in points destroyed.

but as for the topic of phoenix lords... i only really bother with Maugan Ra, Feugan and Karandras.

Shadowseer Crofty
17-10-2007, 12:38
Feugan Strode through an onslaught of fire, not failing his fnp rolls, destroyed several transports with either his pike or axe and was last to fall on the field of battle...

Was this a rematch of the Rhana Dandra by any chance?

serious note-considering the PL's are immune to instant death, would Fuegan's feel no pain work on attacks that would cause instant death if he didn't have that rule?

superknijn
17-10-2007, 12:50
Weapons that would normally inflict Instant Death negate FnP even if the target is immune to it, as they still (most of the time, anyway, you also have Wraithguard-weapons and the like) have a Strength double or more the model's Toughness, page 74 of the rulebook.

graveaccomplice
17-10-2007, 13:12
I get the feeling that special characters are high priced specifically to keep them out of competitive play. I'm still fretting over Eldrad showing up so often, even though he's supposed to be dead.

Just my fluffy side coming out...

marv335
17-10-2007, 13:21
Special characters should be overcosted for their abilities. They are there for theme rather than tourney uber-power.

Captain Micha
17-10-2007, 13:40
Bladestorm is worth it.. always... 3 dire avengers shouldn't be able to wipe 9 firewarriors in shooting

Nazguire
17-10-2007, 13:44
I always thought a cool Apocalypse match would be a game with Abaddon deep striking with twenty or so Chaos Terminators and a heap of Black Legionnaires attacking an Imperial Guard held fortress with equal points.

Asurmen is good in small games, but so are most special characters his calibre.

fengor
17-10-2007, 13:45
Bladestorm is worth it.. always... 3 dire avengers shouldn't be able to wipe 9 firewarriors in shooting

And that relates to the thread in what way?

Regarding Phoenix Lords: I normally dont field them because i dont own the models. But if i would field them it would rather be for fluff reason, since i dont play tournaments anyway. I'm rather fond of their high pricing and would be glad if Eldrad would get a price increase.

The 7 Samurai game mentioned earlier sounds nice, maybe i'll ask a friend for a game liek htat and proxy the phoenix lord with the corresponding exarch models.

Captain Micha
17-10-2007, 13:47
I'm saying that an hq with bladestorm is pure awesome on the principle of bladestorm being awesome..

Also he has alot of nice wargear I've never had to face down a phoenix lord but looking at him right now with the Eldar codex... he scares me!

fengor
17-10-2007, 14:16
hq with bladestor isnt that good. its just one model that maybe has +1 shot one round and cant shoot the other round. To make bladestorm work you would have to attach him to a dire avenger squad.

But bladestorm alone doesnt make him wesome.

graveaccomplice
17-10-2007, 14:18
hq with bladestor isnt that good. its just one model that maybe has +1 shot one round and cant shoot the other round. To make bladestorm work you would have to attach him to a dire avenger squad.

But bladestorm alone doesnt make him wesome.


He can also give it to the 10 Dire Avengers he could join, as well as give them Fearless.

fengor
17-10-2007, 15:09
well except the aprt about fearless that is what i meant with: To make bladestorm work you would have to attach him to a dire avenger squad.

Orbital
17-10-2007, 15:19
Bladestorm is worth it.. always... 3 dire avengers shouldn't be able to wipe 9 firewarriors in shooting

If you're only looking at one turn, then yes. Look at it from the second turn, where they stand there not firing a shot, and it balances out a bit.