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Lord Merlin
18-10-2007, 01:13
Why is it that chaos players are hellbent on having essentially a space marine army with some demons. Chaos are just that. chaos. They do not get razorbacks. They shouldn't have gotten the vindicator. They should have the landraider(A separate one from the SM) They should have rhinos. They should have dreads and defilers. They are chaos make them evil not extra marines. Honestly they should have a much more demonic feel to them. I want to see separate boxed sets for different gods. Just add another sprue with screaming heads for khorne.
Tentacles for tzeentch. Torsos for nurgle and the AP3 bolters for slaanesh.

RavenMorpheus
18-10-2007, 01:19
Don't be daft if GW made them more daemonic and not just like marines they'd unbalance the game. And the new codices (which I'm assuming your post is about - the lack of "evilness" in the new codex) are all about balancing the game up a bit.

Personally though I agree but it isn't going to happen in the rules because it creates an imbalance...

...The models on the other hand may happen, there's no reason why GW shouldn't release extra bits down the line, they may have god specific sprues in the works already but from what I've heard about the CSM codex there probably won't be much use for them :(

Hicks
18-10-2007, 01:21
I think that what you mean is that chaos shouldn't be renegades, but all out worshippers of the dark powers right? I think both have their place in the 40K world. Myself, I think that chaos should be like the Lost and the Damned even if fluffwise, there are warbands composed only of chaos marines. That would make chaos something more than another flavor of marines IMO.

Overall, I'm quite happy with how things are right now.

doghouse
18-10-2007, 01:45
I think it was a bit of a shock to see them give the Legions a back seat to newer Renegades (although this is a return in many respects to their true origins).
I think that they could have made them more interesting and tryed to distance them from the loyalist marine chapters a little more.
It's nice to finally see the Vindicator as an option though as it was originally used during the Heresy. It's a little weird that these renegade chapters suddenly stop using stormbolters, whirlwinds and razorbacks though but I guess it was necessary to move them away from the loyalists a bit.
Overall I'm not overly impressed with the new feel of the army, the book is lacking in the options department in my mind.

Lord Merlin
18-10-2007, 01:48
I just realized that the problem is that there should be two different codices for renegades and for the traitors. Actually I think that the renegades should be done away with. They just muck things up.

Occulto
18-10-2007, 01:57
Actually I think that the renegades should be done away with. They just muck things up.

I disagree completely, for one important reason:

Who wants to see every single chaos army painted as one of the original legions?

Boring as all hell.

It's always amazed me that in just about every other army, there are so many homebrewed colour schemes, but when it comes to Chaos the majority of players pick one of the Legion colour schemes.

It'd be like seeing every SM army painted up as one of either Ultramarines, Imp Fists, Raven Guard, Iron Hands or Salamanders.

Imperialis_Dominatus
18-10-2007, 02:02
the AP3 bolters for slaanesh.

Wrongo.

But I can see what you mean. Personally I think recent renegades are better represented by the SM Codex. And I'm personally not clamoring for Razorbacks and stuff. Vindys- no, we should have had them before. They were in the Heresy. I'm also unhappy about Chaos Marines from ten thousand years ago basically having the same stats and skills as a regular Marine. I've seen fluff where the ancient warriors of Chaos rip through normal Marines, and written fluff around that. But we all know what happens when the game represents fluff. Normal Marines=Movie Marines. Chaos Marine HH Veterans=Movie Marines on crack. Nuff said.

Lord Merlin
18-10-2007, 02:04
Well there can be renegade chapters just the rules are badly executed in my opinion. There need to be either a separate codex or another way to pick them. Like you can't have as many terms or chosen or maybe not as many demonic gifts.

Kveld-Ulf
18-10-2007, 02:14
A big problem is with the new Chaos Codex, all the options were taken out. I felt like I was looking through the armory for Kroot, there just isn't one. The only real daemonic like models right now are the possessed. Unless they trash the new Codex entirely, most Chaos troops are now basically Evil SM, ohh noes!

The Vindicator was used during the heresy, about time we found the keys to them. As to the Razorback, Whirlwind, etc. don't we already have our own Chaos vehicles to compensate for them? Granted a Havoc Launcher isn't as good as the Whirlwind, but Chaos can't be choosers.

Lexington
18-10-2007, 02:18
Why is it that chaos players are hellbent on having essentially a space marine army with some demons.
It might be because the Chaos Space Marines are Space Marines who rebelled against the Imperium during the Heresy or afterwards, but I guess that's sort of a silly explanation. :P

Occulto
18-10-2007, 02:22
There need to be either a separate codex or another way to pick them.

And what if this is the separate codex? ;)

EVIL INC
18-10-2007, 03:25
If you look back to the original fluff of the chaos forces, they would be far more powerfull then they are now and more powerfull then the average imperial marine force. It is just a matter of which side has more numbers and of what at any given encounter.
While it is true that fluff-wise, chaos should have some limited access to some models like vindicators and razorbacks, balence gamewise, does not let us do it.
I am glad to use my old cannon of khorne model. Fluff-wise, it is far more powerfull then a vindicator but I will enjoy using it as one anyways.

Ironsides
18-10-2007, 06:49
Wrongo.

I'm also unhappy about Chaos Marines from ten thousand years ago basically having the same stats and skills as a regular Marine. I've seen fluff where the ancient warriors of Chaos rip through normal Marines, and written fluff around that. But we all know what happens when the game represents fluff. Normal Marines=Movie Marines. Chaos Marine HH Veterans=Movie Marines on crack. Nuff said.

I think you could represent Chaos in a fluffy and balanced manner by reconfiguring CSM to function more like Hordes of Chaos in fantasy. Renegade CSM would be elite infantry like Chaos Warriors with the bulk of the list consisting of traitor guard and mutants. Traitor Legionnaires could only be taken in small numbers (restricted like Chosen or Wolf Guard) but would be analogous to Chosen Knights in sheer killyness.

Adept
18-10-2007, 07:28
I think you could represent Chaos in a fluffy and balanced manner by reconfiguring CSM to function more like Hordes of Chaos in fantasy. Renegade CSM would elite infantry like Chaos Warriors with the bulk of the list consisting of traitor guard and mutants. Traitor Legionnaires could only be taken in small numbers (restricted like Chosen or Wolf Guard) but would be analogous to Chosen Knights in sheer killyness.

But you also shouldn't preclude people from taking entire armies of traitor Marines, if that's what they want.

Nazguire
18-10-2007, 07:37
For me, the Legions, excluding the Cult Legions or the Word Bearers/Black Legion (to an extent), are simply traitor Marines with a few daemony extras, background wise.

The Alpha Legion for example. I doubt that they will have giant Cauldrons of Blood or Plaguelords rolling/stomping around whilst they summon hordes upon hordes of winged eyeballs.

Or the Night Lords, a Legion that uses Chaos merely as a tool and any serious devotion to it is described as weak. I can't see them not making use of Razorbacks or Land Speeders if they procure them.

It's only (to me at least) the Cult Legions and the Word Bearers/Black Legion (to an extent) are the ones likely to employ units of Death Wheels, Defilers, Cannons of Khorne, small armies of Nurglings and every second Marine is possessed to some level.

So Codex wise I'd have preferred what it is previously. A load of extras allowing you to go to town with the daemon goodness (ala the 3.5 edition Books of Chaos and the Lord/Daemon Prince/Chosen unit entries) or keeping it simple to represent those Legions that are in between (like the Alpha Legion.

Ironsides
18-10-2007, 07:49
But you also shouldn't preclude people from taking entire armies of traitor Marines, if that's what they want.

My post wasn't very clear. You could still take entire traitor armies, though they would be more expensive (pointswise) and elite than they would be now. When I said that Traitor Legionnaires would be restricted I was distinguishing between recently turned renegades and veterans of the Horus Heresy ( who I feel should be very rare but much more powerful than renegades).

Defcon
18-10-2007, 07:57
I certainly would not use the current Chaos 'Dex to represent Renegade Marines. As someone said above - why not use the Space Marine book? Renegade Marines won't suddenly out of the blue have a Daemon Prince. Or raptors. They'll generally just be Space Marines (and still will probably have ATSKNF). Only the really heinous "We were about to get lanced" chapters would so quickly drop into this realm, at least in my opinion.

Likening them to how they work in Fantasy would be wonderful. Cheap normal troops or ridiculously expensive elites representing the moronically experienced CSMs. The book felt underwhelming in every aspect of delivery on the points that were promised except balance, which it does fine at. Thankfully it gave them more time with the Orks.

Imperialis_Dominatus
18-10-2007, 09:14
I think you could represent Chaos in a fluffy and balanced manner by reconfiguring CSM to function more like Hordes of Chaos in fantasy. Renegade CSM would be elite infantry like Chaos Warriors with the bulk of the list consisting of traitor guard and mutants. Traitor Legionnaires could only be taken in small numbers (restricted like Chosen or Wolf Guard) but would be analogous to Chosen Knights in sheer killyness.

What, sort of like the Lost and the Damned? :D

Brother Loki
18-10-2007, 09:46
Exactly like the Lost and the Damned. In the background this is far more how chaos armies operate than is represented in the rules. Large forces of traitor marines really only get together for big things like the black crusades - most of the time they're off ruling planets and commanding their own warbands.

Imperialis_Dominatus
18-10-2007, 09:48
Precisely.

Ironsides
18-10-2007, 10:00
What, sort of like the Lost and the Damned? :D

Yes, but with a few key differences. I'm proposing that Traitor Legionnaires (who fluff-wise are 10,000 year vets far superior to loyalist marines) would become an entry distinct from normal CSM (who represent, in this list, the renegades). The WFB reference was intended as a guide to the relative killiness and numbers of CSM. In my theoretical list, renegade CSM (stats-wise) would appear exactly as they do now, while the original Traitor Legionnaires would be the elite of the elite: low in numbers but extremely powerful, in accordance with their fluff.

Brother Loki
18-10-2007, 10:15
That's kind of what they've done with the cult troops in the latest codex, and I guess the undivided legions could be represented by chosen.

Why they didn't put a generic cultist entry in there is beyond me.

Ironsides
18-10-2007, 10:23
The fact that they got rid of cultists is a real shame. Cultists are very fluffy and hardly gamebreakers. With the demise of LaTD there is now a total absence of non-marine humans in the chaos list.

jfrazell
18-10-2007, 12:51
I think you could represent Chaos in a fluffy and balanced manner by reconfiguring CSM to function more like Hordes of Chaos in fantasy. Renegade CSM would be elite infantry like Chaos Warriors with the bulk of the list consisting of traitor guard and mutants. Traitor Legionnaires could only be taken in small numbers (restricted like Chosen or Wolf Guard) but would be analogous to Chosen Knights in sheer killyness.

So you mean the LATD that was just declared illegal? Thanks GW. :mad:

As noted, make the aspiring champs original traitors (and chosen if they come over, I forget if that option is available). Any normal marine allies would be renegades or new chaos marines.

EarlGrey
18-10-2007, 13:02
The fact that they got rid of cultists is a real shame. Cultists are very fluffy and hardly gamebreakers. With the demise of LaTD there is now a total absence of non-marine humans in the chaos list.

What about including Imperial Guard, PDF etc in a Space Marine army. Guard are more common and very fluffy, yet you don't see many complaints about that.
(Plus they can easily represent cultists, so why not just include a platoon or two in a Chaos list? Apocalypse games, friendly games, general non-trournament games can easily accomodate your cannon fodder needs. :) )


Yes, but with a few key differences. I'm proposing that Traitor Legionnaires (who fluff-wise are 10,000 year vets far superior to loyalist marines) would become an entry distinct from normal CSM (who represent, in this list, the renegades). The WFB reference was intended as a guide to the relative killiness and numbers of CSM. In my theoretical list, renegade CSM (stats-wise) would appear exactly as they do now, while the original Traitor Legionnaires would be the elite of the elite: low in numbers but extremely powerful, in accordance with their fluff.


What about those that turned traiter 8000 years ago, or 5000, or 2000? Not all the non-legion traitors turned yesterday.
Also, there is the extra attack and Icon that boosts Chaos Space Marines over Loyalist Marines quite a bit, alongside the cult units which are very powerful in comparison. What more do you want! Lord stats everywhere? :)

EVIL INC
18-10-2007, 13:33
You should really read the original chaos fluff rather then the new watered down version. Originally khorne marines were far more likely to get heavy weapons then any other legion. Units came in numbers of the god. Over the years, they have been watered down to fit the steriotype rather then take into consideration that not everyone fits the steriotype. While it was possible have minataurs and all, they were only an extra add on to the core units which were chaos marines.
Even considering todays watered down chaos you need to understand that "chaos is chaos". That means that you should not be forced to use ltd type lists nor should you be forced to take pure renegade lists. There should either be multiple lists available balenced to cover a variety of chaos "types" of armies or one that allows all to be used. The one that allows all to be used can be cheesed out too easily so it looks like they are going the other route. and producing different lists for some of the more predominate types of chaos army. This is the better way in my opinion. We all get what we want, just use the list you prefer more.
For example, if you consider that many of your games are taking place in the eye of terror, you will see more daemons. If you consider them to be in far out of the way boonedock areas on the opposite side of the galaxy from the eye, you will see more ltd type lists and nearer to terra, there will be more renegade type lists. Then again, consider that overall commanders of different chaos forces may have different ideas of how they want to wage war. Some might consider "mere mutants" and ltd skum as not being worthy of fighting in his force and rely solely on "real solfiers" and only use marines. Another might be led by a demagogoe and be afraid of using marines as he might be afraid of them usurping his power (and rightly so lol) so he would use a pure ltd list. The possibilities are as endless as the individuals within the real of chaos.

Demetrius
18-10-2007, 13:41
I play chaos and was very annoyed at the first glimpe of the codex.

Now Iv gotten used to it, it doesnt seem so bad.

Just 3 things atm though
-Need Cultists
-Need Demon powers on the lord. Nothing else. Just the lord
-Chosen to have better stats than marines aka 1+ WS, BS or A.

Thats all

Captain Micha
18-10-2007, 14:24
I think what everyone needs to remember it's called chaos space marines..

meaning... Space Marines.... are just that... sorry. just tired of this crap rant. you can have them look how ever you want to. Oh drat drat drat you don't get special rules for your customisation.. why do you need them in the first place?

It fits the look and feel of the army you say.. No, if they had different rules you'd just use them and not the converting which to me as your opponent wouldn't look any different. Do the conversions anyway, if you really want your force to be different. Rules do not define the feel of an army beyond perhaps the -loosest- influences. the majority of your army's impact on the table top is simply the look of what has been done what units you've selected that reflect your personal style of fluff and likes.

My guela helper jet troopers (which count as vespid) are a nice example of something I did for the look. "but I don't have that kind of love for the hobby to do it just for looks and no rules" you say? Then too bad. You're in the wrong hobby to start with then

The pestilent 1
18-10-2007, 14:28
Exactly like the Lost and the Damned. In the background this is far more how chaos armies operate than is represented in the rules. Large forces of traitor marines really only get together for big things like the black crusades - most of the time they're off ruling planets and commanding their own warbands.


Because Space marine Battle companies are regularly called in to fight off a small Dark Eldar warband?

MrBigMr
18-10-2007, 14:30
Why is it that chaos players are hellbent on having essentially a space marine army with some demons. Chaos are just that. chaos.
Chaos might be Chaos, but Chaos Space Marines are still Space Marines (unless we apply one thread, were it was stated that if they haven't been made with gene-seeds and the same training as loyalist SM, they're just Chaos Marines). They don't run around just like that, they rebelled agaist the 'False Emperor' and sided with the Chaos gods.

Chaos is the name for the whole thing, but there is pretty much order within Chaos. When you follow one god, you just do what that god likes, where as an undivided force would be in the center of the turmoil. There is fair amount of stuff that gives a very organized and controlled vision of Chaos, even if they're mutated freaks with mental problems from time to time.

As for "no razorback or this and that", in Daemon World the Violator Chaos Marines had thunderhawks, assault marines and even a dreadnought with an assault cannon.


I've never liked the whole concept of spiky berserkers thirsty for blood. I've always fancied the more systematic form of 'evil', like the Imperium in Star Wars or Nazi Germany. You don't need to be a stereotypical psychopath to perform g/xenocide. I've always found sociopaths to be far more appealing.

So when I started making a Chaos army, I chose a far more unified look and wrote it all down in the fluff that is the length of 3 novels in total. I made the original list for the old Chaos codex, taking great care in it. Then GW came out with this new one and crapped all my plans. Over 50% of the list had to be redone and the new one didn't reflect the fluff at all. So I switched to the normal SM codex, which was fine by me, as I never was going to use daemons or such.

Captain Micha
18-10-2007, 14:33
I highly doubt that the army became unusable thanks to the new codex. you just didn't sit down and think it all out. Not saying you would even have to rewrite any of it. Tell you what I'd do it for you. send me your novels and you're army lists and I'll eventually send you back how each thing in the new dex fits in with your fluff.

Supremearchmarshal
18-10-2007, 15:12
People are asking why no Cultists? That's easy - an expendable cannon fodder unit is just too good for an entire army of elite units. Low numbers is one of the key weaknesses of any MEQ army, and giving them cheap units to bulk out their numbers would cancel it out.

And that's why we need LatD to represent the common followers of Chaos!

carl
18-10-2007, 15:44
@Captain Micha
:

Your an exception to a fairly common rule.

Namely people are eithier in the game for the modelling and painting, in which case they don't play much and don't really care about the rules.

Or their in the game for the gaming and will only put what they consider extravagent effeort into a convershion or somthing similar if they are actually going to get somthing out of it.


Thats the point JJ and GW in general missed when they started striping armouries out. Peoploe didn't take wargear becausse they'd converted their model to have it. They converted their model to have wargear because they'd taken it from the armoury.

If what their spending 20 hours per marine to convert, (extreme example i know), isn't going to give them any benefit rules wise then to them theirs absolutly no point putting the effort in. Their more intrested on getting models on the table and having a fun game with them, than making them look good.

But if they've got X peice of wargear on their models in the list then most of them, (bar extreme power gamers), tend to feel it's only fair if they represent it.



Where do i sit?

I'm actually part of one of the minority groups, (allthough where probably the most vocal).

I play 40K as a tabletop way of representing the fluff I love so much and veiw the loss of options with utter horror. Those options allowed us to represent a great many fluff things on the tabletop with rules. Which at the end of the day is what where really intrested in.

Captain Micha
18-10-2007, 16:01
the fluff is still there. you just have a different way of representing it now. the restrictions that exist now are much looser than before, in much the same way D&D does it's feats... what you take and don't take is up to you now as a gamer.

why would every list resemble the same thing within a legion for example? Okay, lets have it done 'traditional style' then simply take the units that legion is famed for having providing it falls within the foc.

I don't think anyone here on warseer will dare say 40k has ever had anything on D&d for customisability, 40k is going at it in a much more similar way. And to me. that level of customisability, is a far better way to represent fluff than any super restrictive list.

Don't get me wrong gaming is every bit as fun as the modeling and still more so, but I don't feel my unique modeling should get special rules just because I wanted my chapter master for example to have a bionic arm

MrBigMr
18-10-2007, 16:36
I highly doubt that the army became unusable thanks to the new codex. you just didn't sit down and think it all out. Not saying you would even have to rewrite any of it. Tell you what I'd do it for you. send me your novels and you're army lists and I'll eventually send you back how each thing in the new dex fits in with your fluff.
Sent, but I'm not holding my breath.

As for wargear and especially daemonic gifts, I, and many people I know, found them to be fun. Like Carl sort of said, if I have a detailed and heavily converted Chaos lord, and my opponent has a straight out of the box lord, and they're both the same no matter what they look, I find it a bit dull.

I would like to see all SM armies squeezed into one vanilla SM codex. Wonder how that would be taken by the players. What do you think? No need for all those long complicated rules for DA, BT, BA, SW, etc. All you need are a little different models so you can make out which tactical marines are SW and which DA.

Captain Micha
18-10-2007, 16:45
Personally? I'd be fine with it.. we need less marines in 40k period. 60 percent of all games should not consist of hot marine on marine action. or marine on someone action.. I even think chaos marines should be lumped into one codex.

Hell I feel the same way about dar and dark dar. but you know what? they at least play totally differently.

also they'd probably do something very similar to what they did with the legions if the did that. one type of unit from each... except wait, vows and draw backs aside bts are marines! (believe me.. sad to admit it, and I play them) ba aside from dc, and a couple special units are *gasp* marines! who would have ever thought?!

Da aside from raven and deathwing are marines! Omg ! which could easily be done in -one- page in a codex.

You've still got your icons, your legionare models... demons for fodder (and yes they are cheaper at it than the chaos marines are)

as for the wargear... they can't do that without making distinctions between normal swords and chainswords while they are at it etc etc.. which I think we can all agree.. is abit mind numbingly overcomplicated and harder to balance then
Especially on an inferior d6 system.

I'll work on your fluff/army later. I've gotta get the codex back over here before I can start though

The_Outsider
18-10-2007, 16:54
10 bet says when the rest of the races down (though primarily orks) we will see a lot less space marines of either flavour.

Chaos while no longer codex are still fundamentally bound by the warband rules (which to be fair so are most of the races) so it is often, strong leader, skilled troops with decent support.

No matter how you look at it its hard to make csm less marine like because of their past.

Personally the possessed are the right direction, meaning less standard marine options and more daemonic gifts to cover the hole.

No I don't want a plasma gun, I want the burning fist of chaos as my special weapon.

Ironsides
18-10-2007, 18:07
"but I don't have that kind of love for the hobby to do it just for looks and no rules" you say? Then too bad. You're in the wrong hobby to start with then

Impressive!

A hop, a skip and a death-defying olympic gold medal winning triple jump to conclusions:wtf:

Preston
18-10-2007, 18:44
I think that the "counts as" understanding would be good, as long as it was relatively obvious what the item was supposed to be.

For example, I'm making raptors (and some regular CSM) out of Possessed by mixing sprues. For a flamethrower raptor, I am going to use the flame arm from the possessed sprue. That, to me, is WYSIWYG. No other models, other then flamethrower equipped models, will have that arm.

It depends on if you want the Look of chaos or rules of chaos, and in that case what would be the difference between "fire breath" and "flame thrower" if the rules were exactly the same? Just a look.

Cirenivel
18-10-2007, 20:01
I think what everyone needs to remember it's called chaos space marines..

meaning... Space Marines.... are just that... sorry. just tired of this crap rant. you can have them look how ever you want to. Oh drat drat drat you don't get special rules for your customisation.. why do you need them in the first place?



you know? why don't we then just have one codex called Codex:Army? Then everybody could have the same rules and convert models as they see fit.

Sorry, I'm just tired of this crap rant. :rolleyes:

Cirenivel