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LightningGus
18-10-2007, 04:52
I've been wanting to play in local area tournaments, and i started practicing using my list with my buddies in friendly games. I figured that most tourney goers are competitive players, and i made my list with this in mind. Three falcons, harlies, fire dragons, the whole shebang.

After two games I realised how insanely cheesy my list was, in both games I decimated my opponent, I even made some sloppy mistakes but it really seemed like they couldn't have done anything (aside from getting insanely lucky) to beat me. I even told them that if they want to make up the cheesiest list they could and play me, it would be cool. They don't think they could make any sort of list to contend with the mech cheese. I've decided to stay away from such things in friendlies from now on, because if i keep playing this way I won't be able to get my friends in games anymore...

In a tournament it's a different story though, opponents have to play me. They don't have to like it though, and i don't think im charismatic enough to keep them from butchering my soft scores...
I was just wondering how do such lists go over in tourneys, and how do people react to such lists. I would sort of think that some people go to tourneys for the challenge of it, and would enjoy playing against such lists. I would like to make friends (obviously), but i don't want to make friends by letting them stomp on me.

If anyone who has used a very competitive army in a tournament and could give their account of how other players felt towards their army i would appreciate it.

zendral
18-10-2007, 05:00
Depending on how it is run...depends on how much we see of "cheese". Tournaments run where I play have composition as part of the score...and a decent part too. So not everyone goes nutz, as they know the risk on taking too much "cheese".

Trinary
18-10-2007, 05:02
No one likes a competative army... Ok, not no one, but few. There are a lot of guys out there who think a 40K army should mimic some fantasy image they have of a modern army, or harken back to the fluff from more than a degade ago.

If your army has a theme, go for it... But expect cheese to be yelled after many games, especially if you win often enough.

Post your list, I'll find a counter to it. But from the tedious anti-falcon thread, fielding three of them will have it buried in hate mail before you press <ENTER>.

Reinholt
18-10-2007, 05:07
Hey, as someone who posted about the Falcon being underpointed in another thread...

If you are playing in a no-comp (or low comp) tournament, go for it! I don't mind people taking loaded lists if everyone is coming in with the expectation that people are doing just that. In a tournament with sportsmanship and comp, expect to get marked down for it, however. That's just going to happen, even if you are a really nice guy. But for something like many GTs, the 'Ard Boyz, or whatever, go to town.

Just don't be upset if someone with another equally (or more) cheesy army stomps you through the floor. Fair is fair.

Tulun
18-10-2007, 05:17
Yup. Play friendly in friendly games. You don't need to falcon bomb people to beat normal lists... Eldar have a huge variety of ways to win, and a lot of fun units to use.

Trickle
18-10-2007, 06:18
As a new Eldar 'collector', army chosen last month on the basis that I thought they were cool back in the day 17 years ago when I played fantasy battle, I dont intend to buy a single falcon or prism.

After reading these forums I now understand why the staffer in the store visibly turned his nose up after he asked me what race I was going to go with and I handed over the 50 box.

I'd rather read about lists and tactics not containing these units (there was a single thread recently I saw). It doesnt seem worth risking any adverse reaction fielding one when turning up for my first 1000/1500 point 40K night.

/glum.

Isambard
18-10-2007, 07:26
I run three prisms in my standard list - yes they are hard to kill but then they also only get an average of 2 or 3 shots each per game, so people dont seem to begrudge me this.
That being said, they are mostly taken back by the painting - I give them the old 'razzle-dazzle'.

Tulun
18-10-2007, 07:49
As a new Eldar 'collector', army chosen last month on the basis that I thought they were cool back in the day 17 years ago when I played fantasy battle, I dont intend to buy a single falcon or prism.

After reading these forums I now understand why the staffer in the store visibly turned his nose up after he asked me what race I was going to go with and I handed over the 50 box.

I'd rather read about lists and tactics not containing these units (there was a single thread recently I saw). It doesnt seem worth risking any adverse reaction fielding one when turning up for my first 1000/1500 point 40K night.

/glum.

What a dick. That staffer should be canned... regardless of army you play, you promote any army a buyer wants to play.

As well, there is nothing wrong with Eldar. There is nothing wrong with using Falcons or Prisms. Just don't use 3 unless you are playing against very competitive people, and they have no reason to complain.

Eldar have a ton of options to use, despite the touted tri-falcon list... and I am amused how a lot of people complain about Eldar lists are also playing lists just as competitive... (more anecdotal than anything).

Anyway, enjoy the team, don't let a bad seed ruin your time.

TheSanityAssassin
18-10-2007, 08:08
*shakes head* Makes me sad that people refuse to play me on hearing that I play Eldar because of these damn 3-falcon lists. I rarely have even 2 vehicles (never a Falcon) and often play completely footslogging (well...jump-packing and biking but still)

Mojaco
18-10-2007, 08:48
Refuse to play you? ******. I never refused Chaos because there are cheesy builds, nor Necrons because some lists suck.

I'm going to the Dutch GT this weekend. Hopefully someone will bring this build so I can see if people aren't just making this bigger then it is.

TheSanityAssassin
18-10-2007, 09:01
I've found that list to be massively hit or miss. It fairs really well against anything that lacks mobility, where it can get in their face, unload, massacre, and get out.

Against mobile armies (like my less mechanized Eldar) it does fairly poorly. I have weapons like Vibrocannons that can blast hordes of glances on them, and I can fairly easily cover vehicle exits so that things like Harlies can't get out.

That said, depending on scenario, their VP denial can be annoying. I've lost to a guy simply because he had over 1000 pts soaked into 3 falcons and their transport squads, and the mission was basically "keep your own stuff alive"....needless to say it wasn't that fun, though generally if they go for VP denial they'll have small enough amounts of firepower coming back that you'll be able to hide just as many VP's from them.

fengor
18-10-2007, 09:14
good point SaityAssassin. As i tried pointing out in the antifalcon tactica thread, falcons can be dealt with If you dont fall in the assumption you have to destroy it to negate it. As for Tri Falcon/Prism being unfluffy.. what other heavy support is a SaimHann player able to field while keeping in fluff?

But basically if you play in no comp tournies ppl shouldnt be allowed to whine and in friendly games you normally dont need to maximize on anything. The most i fielded so far were 2 falcons in a 3500 battle. And i think 3500 left my opponent a lot of space to deal with 2 falcons ;p

Imperialis_Dominatus
18-10-2007, 09:23
After reading these forums I now understand why the staffer in the store visibly turned his nose up after he asked me what race I was going to go with and I handed over the 50 box.

What a dick. Take what you want, man. Just because some people will be all "oh noes!" if you take a Falcon... don't let the opinions of others influence you so much. Just don't overdo the Falcon/Prism and it'll be fine.

To add to what was said, that guy should be fired and set on fire. I'm no fan of Eldar, but I'm also no fan of getting new players of 40k to only play Marines of somesuch ************. It's giving my MEQs a bad name, and it irritates me. Plus Eldar have nice themes and storylines. I can appreciate them for more than a hated enemy who has the Falcon which.... let's not get into that. :angel:

Seriously, if you see him again, kick him in the balls. He isn't allowed to procreate.

TheSanityAssassin
18-10-2007, 09:24
And that's just the thing with "no-comp" tourneys. They encourage the games to be won at your writing desk making a list. I know I say it over and over, but that' s why all of my events have a 30% minimum troops, strictly enforced.

Skyth
18-10-2007, 09:51
Like 30% troops really makes the game balanced...Some armies have alot better troops than other armies.

Trickle
18-10-2007, 09:56
What a dick. Take what you want, man.

Oh, he covered himself well after and promptly started plying tools and glues for the complete hard sell ;)
Maybe I'm reading too much into it.

graveaccomplice
18-10-2007, 11:45
After two games I realised how insanely cheesy my list was, in both games I decimated my opponent, I even made some sloppy mistakes but it really seemed like they couldn't have done anything (aside from getting insanely lucky) to beat me. I even told them that if they want to make up the cheesiest list they could and play me, it would be cool. They don't think they could make any sort of list to contend with the mech cheese. I've decided to stay away from such things in friendlies from now on, because if i keep playing this way I won't be able to get my friends in games anymore...


WHat did you play against?

Voodoo Boyz
18-10-2007, 12:13
Look man. I hate the 3 Falcon build as much as anyone who's had to play against a skimmer spam list multiple times.

But if you're going to go to a tournament, a serious one where people will be playing to win, then you better take the hardest army list you can make up and learn to play it well.

You're not going to win a GT with some kind of fluff bunny army list. You have to have a tough list, know how to play it, and by god it better be painted well.

And for friendlies, playing power lists all the time will just **** people off. Toning it down for normal games makes the whole experience a lot more fun, though in a very different way than playing "Competitively" in a tournament.

Forbiddenknowledge
18-10-2007, 12:42
To me, this just reeks of the same whining that people did about Tau skimmers... until they found ways to stop them.

Its looks the same here - a few people have bad experience with them, and cry cheese, instead of figuring out how to beat them.

Its doable, I've never had a problem facing 3 tricked falcons, Deathrain's will down them easily.

I play Tau though, so that automatically makes me a beardy player *rolls eyes*

LightningGus
18-10-2007, 13:06
I think I will keep the difference between comp tourneys and non comp tourneys in mind. If I go to a comp tourney I could tone down the falcon spam a bit. few other things, I do actually have 30% of my points in troops and the players i tested my list against were both chaos (one with double lash, but like that helps against mech...)

Kalesh of Altansar
18-10-2007, 13:25
I run two Falcons in my current list. I play Saim Hann (really need to change the avatar and stuff). Lots of bikes shinning spears and only one unit of Harlequins. Quite honestly people have delt with my Falcons by blocking the doors. Keeping it shaken and then going after the rest of the army. I would also like to say that a Falcon is not a MBT. The Fire Prism is the MBT for the Eldar. Falcons are more like a cross between a transport and a tank. Falcons on whole are not the issue it is people that can not see a viable stratagy to beat them that is the problem. Most people concentrate on shooting the bejesus out of them. Guess what that is not going to nullify a Falcon. I can see a point that people are making about the cheese factor when faced with three all loaded with Harlequins. However the same can be said for those people that do not want to adopt tactics to deal with the threat. The Falcon only has one access point thats it. Block the doors with fast attack troops or options and suddenly that one trick Eldar player is caught like a deer in headlights. " OH crap what am I to do my Harlequins can not get out and assult!!!" Tactics will always win over a nerf. IMHO.

Omniassiah
18-10-2007, 16:24
If you have a lot of people bringing the 2lash/3falcon-harle lists seriously look at how many points your playing. If your playing 1000-1500 try and get the club/store to bump up points to 2000 points. At 1500 points and less most list have just what they need and the lash/falcon-harle are great at obliterating those armies. With the extra points the lists are rough but able to be dealt with especially since Non-MEQ lists start to be able to pull their weight a lot more effectively.

Spleendokta
18-10-2007, 17:21
This is why I build my IG list with las/plas and a mix of auto cannons. I dont need any anti horde weapons because, well I never see them. If I do come across the rare horde list, well I just make do with what I have. 90% of the lists I see are MEQ and Skimmer heavy, so my gamble set up works 90% of the time... well on paper it does till the dice gods take over. :P

Voodoo Boyz
18-10-2007, 17:51
I run two Falcons in my current list. I play Saim Hann (really need to change the avatar and stuff). Lots of bikes shinning spears and only one unit of Harlequins. Quite honestly people have delt with my Falcons by blocking the doors. Keeping it shaken and then going after the rest of the army. I would also like to say that a Falcon is not a MBT. The Fire Prism is the MBT for the Eldar. Falcons are more like a cross between a transport and a tank. Falcons on whole are not the issue it is people that can not see a viable stratagy to beat them that is the problem. Most people concentrate on shooting the bejesus out of them. Guess what that is not going to nullify a Falcon. I can see a point that people are making about the cheese factor when faced with three all loaded with Harlequins. However the same can be said for those people that do not want to adopt tactics to deal with the threat. The Falcon only has one access point thats it. Block the doors with fast attack troops or options and suddenly that one trick Eldar player is caught like a deer in headlights. " OH crap what am I to do my Harlequins can not get out and assult!!!" Tactics will always win over a nerf. IMHO.

Personally, I've posted many times the tactics I've used to overcome Eldar Falcon Spam lists. Blocking the hatches is one tactic and I've used it to great effect. The notion of targeting it till it's got at least one glance on it, and then moving on to other targets (duplicating shots on Waveserpents which go down easier), as another "how to beat Mech Eldar" tactic.

The problem here is two fold. Eldar players catch on to these tactics. When they commit to dropping off the harlies for assault, they generally will turbo up a cheap Vyper to cover the rear hatch in such a method that even if it's blown up, you can't get close enough to block the back hatch of the Falcon with the usual suspects (light skimmers/vehicles, jump troops, etc). So that idea for stopping the Harlies doesn't quite work.

Additionally the idea of "glance, move on" works for fighting eldar and effectively neutralizing the rest of their army, and not falling into the pitfall of throwing everything you can at targets that won't die.

Problem here is that means you're not getting those VP's, you're not stopping it from being scoring, and you're STILL not stopping the Falcon from dropping it's cargo (it's main offensive threat in early turns), and you're not stopping it from being able to move and take objectives and/or tank shock units off objectives and then claim them.

That's the problem with Falcon spam armies. In the hands of a skilled player, they setup situations that tactics can't handle because the rules for them are so bloody stupid.

Voodoo Boyz
18-10-2007, 17:57
To me, this just reeks of the same whining that people did about Tau skimmers... until they found ways to stop them.

Its looks the same here - a few people have bad experience with them, and cry cheese, instead of figuring out how to beat them.

Its doable, I've never had a problem facing 3 tricked falcons, Deathrain's will down them easily.

I play Tau though, so that automatically makes me a beardy player *rolls eyes*

What "find ways to stop them" are you talking about?

Tau skimmers are easy, shoot them with the same thing you'd shoot other AV13 Targets, Lascannons, ML, whatever. Unlike the Falcon, each glancing hit on a Tau skimmer has a significant chance of doing real damage to the tank in the course of the game. That's not to say that their vehicles aren't much more survivable than any other set of vehicles (bar Eldar), they're harder to take out, but it's very doable.

There was no "special tactics" to take out Tau Skimmer Spam Lists. It just forced more of the same in tournament armies in order to deal with it: Lots more Heavy Weapons, in small squads.

Eldar skimmers are an entirely different ballgame than Tau.

Tulun
18-10-2007, 17:58
That's the problem with Falcon spam armies. In the hands of a skilled player, they setup situations that tactics can't handle because the rules for them are so bloody stupid.

While this may or may not be true, I wouldn't want to discourage this guy with this debate here.

Basically, new Eldar dude, just play friendly lists against friendly opponents. I generally at my local shop bring 2 lists; 1 tough as nails, 1 which I basically just screw around and test new units. Tough as nails are for the guys you know play pretty competitive lists (Nidzilla, SAD Marines, Mech Tau, Mech Eldar, Lash armies, etc). You'll figure it out quick. With the competitive player, it will likely be more fun for both of you if you took a harder list.

now, for the other gamers, take a more fun mix. If you like the look Swooping Hawks, take a small squad for fun. Try 3 Singing Spears right out of your box (even without the Autarch! Gasp!), and so on. Even take Guardians (Oh no, I didn't!).

Just avoid holofield skimmer spam against more friendly gamers, and no one that isn't being a dick should complain about your list. Stick to maybe 1 in 1000 points at most, and 2 1500+.

Kalesh of Altansar
18-10-2007, 18:05
And if that vyper goes down right behind the Falcon the harlequins can still not get out. There is not enough room. Anyone that says otherwise is cheating. That is not a viable answer. You can not park a Vyper behind a falcon to protect its door. If I am wrong explain it to me because the way I read the rules you would have to have the vyper close enough to the door that if it did explode and not go it would be terrain right up next to the door. Then the falcon would have to move if even just slightly the Harlequins could not assult as they would have counted as moving.

Wow new dood? Honestly? You assume from my post count that I am new to eldar nice.

Tulun
18-10-2007, 18:10
And if that vyper goes down right behind the Falcon the harlequins can still not get out. There is not enough room. Anyone that says otherwise is cheating. That is not a viable answer. You can not park a Vyper behind a falcon to protect its door. If I am wrong explain it to me because the way I read the rules you would have to have the vyper close enough to the door that if it did explode and not go it would be terrain right up next to the door. Then the falcon would have to move if even just slightly the Harlequins could not assult as they would have counted as moving.



I think he's saying position the vyper in such a way to block people from entering with 1", but it sounds tricky to do (unless you angle your falcon a certain way). It also gives away VPs to your enemy.

I t hink the Vyper dying would actually help the door block, since you can exit onto terrain. a dead vyper is basically just terrain, after all.





Wow new dood? Honestly? You assume from my post count that I am new to eldar nice.

I was referring to the OP :)

I will say this argument is out of place though, mates. We already have 2-3 threads current on this topic.

Kalesh of Altansar
18-10-2007, 18:12
That is a slippery slope. I mean I know the Vyper becomes terrain but how would a door that could not open when it was not terrain suddenly be able to open. Thats a cheap tactic at best. I would have to dred sock anyone that did that.

My apologies I thought you were referring to me. :)

Cry of the Wind
18-10-2007, 18:21
I've only ever played in tournaments that have marks for painting, sportsmanship, comp, general score and the bonus points for 'honour'. When I used the tri-Falcon list I would normally place in the mid to low end of the overall score while having the best general score. It didn't matter if I was acting like a dick or not, my sports score was also low (if not the lowest out of all players) as was my comp and 'honour'. Painting was hit or miss (going from winning best painted to being low in the ranking). People didn't like the army and as a result docked my scores in every other way they could.

This will be true for any other list that wins with massacare results on a regular basis. It won't really matter what you do to the army if other people still think it is a cheesy Eldar list. Even if you don't have 3 Falcons, if you massacare them you'll still get the label. That's my experince at least in all the tournaments I've gone to over the last few years.

Edit:Kalesh, the Vyper tactic works by the Falcon player sending a friendly Vyper to block the back door. What this does is prevent the enemy from placing one of their units at the back door in their turn. If the Vyper is not shot down then it will move away in the Falcon players movement phase before the cargo gets out and thus allowing them to assault as the Vyper moved out of the way and not the Falcon. In the event the Vyper is shot down there is no problem as the cargo can get out onto the vyper shaped terrain that is now behind the Falcon. Since shooting down the Vyper happens after movement the enemy cannot block the door unless they were somehow able to charge the back of the Falcon, something that is going to be very unlikely. Hope that clears it up for you.

Tulun
18-10-2007, 18:27
This will be true for any other list that wins with massacare results on a regular basis. It won't really matter what you do to the army if other people still think it is a cheesy Eldar list. Even if you don't have 3 Falcons, if you massacare them you'll still get the label. That's my experince at least in all the tournaments I've gone to over the last few years.

Therein lies the flaw of comp based scoring based on players you face.

People can be duly unfair to a bias, even if your list is perfectly fine (we all know which types are nicer :P), and why you killed them may have been simply due to good luck (or bad luck on their part), or outplaying them.

Sovereign
18-10-2007, 18:28
To block the Falcon exit, enemy need to be 1" away from the door.

To block the enemy from blocking the Falcon exit, the Vyper needs to be <1" from where the enemy would be to block the Falcon exit.

Or:

Falcon] -1"- (enemy) <1" {Vyper)

If the enemy base is at least 1" diameter, then the Vyper needs to be <3" from the Falcon door, but can be more than 2" away from the rear door.

Enemy may not move within 1" of the Vyper or the Falcon, so cannot block the exit.

The Vyper can be shot at (Falcon is Skimmer, doesn't block LOS), and downed, but being more than 2" from the rear, the Harlies will be able to exit.

I think a similar effect can be gained by simply having Eldar skimmers advance as a phalanx, with separation of <3". The enemy cannot go over/under the enemy skimmers, so they would have to go around the flank. If the line is wide enough, extended by Vypers / Jetbikes, the rears of the Falcons / Wave Serpents are fully protected.

Cry of the Wind
18-10-2007, 18:33
Therein lies the flaw of comp based scoring based on players you face.

People can be duly unfair to a bias, even if your list is perfectly fine (we all know which types are nicer :P), and why you killed them may have been simply due to good luck (or bad luck on their part), or outplaying them.


This is why I don't like the scoring system in tournaments for the most part. I've been given poor marks with my Guard army (which is basic using a platoon of Guard, an Armour Fist and a pair of tanks as the core with no doctrines) just because the dice gods decided I was going to massace the other guy this game (my tanks were impossible to damage and my infantry were all trained by Vindicare assassins or something).

After playing in some Warmachine/Hordes tournaments where there is no comp and your minis don't even need to be painted I found that sportsmanship didn't really suffer (although it is pretty lame to play silver armies all day long...) and that overall it was still a fun event.

Kalesh of Altansar
18-10-2007, 18:34
Sovereign and Cry of the Wind thank you for explaining the tactic better.

I would have to dredsock anyone that did that. That is pretty cheap.

Cry of the Wind
18-10-2007, 18:37
No problem Kalesh, though I don't think it's any cheaper than using grots to block the exits of a Land Raider to kill the Terminator cargo if the tank gets penetrated. It's just using a tactic to get around another rule that can be awkward in some situations.

boogaloo
18-10-2007, 20:18
I think rules like that are good though, i can totally see a swarm of grots swarming the stubling bumbling terminators fleeing as fast as they could from a land raider as it explodes. and i think certain rules like that make weaker units alot more effective in FEW situations. (I always loved grots, never played orks though)

Voodoo Boyz
18-10-2007, 20:25
Sovereign and Cry of the Wind thank you for explaining the tactic better.

I would have to dredsock anyone that did that. That is pretty cheap.

Cheap?

No, it's standard practice for experienced Mech Eldar players who run the Falcon Spam lists with Harlies or any kind of assault troop in them.

It's a valid "tactic" by the rules, and Harlies ignore terrain anyway.

That's my point you see, there's a situation where the Falcon player gets exactly what he wants with the minimal risk that his opponent will glance the Falcon and get a kill result. And there's nothing their opponent can do about it.

Why do you think people like me are adamant about Mech Eldar being a broken/top tier list? Because stuff like this exists.

boogaloo
18-10-2007, 20:37
Voodoo Boyz... ever played eldar just outa curiosity? Cuz when you do having 1 really smashee tank gets pretty overshadowed, by 16-35 point T3 models.

Tank is insane, army is ballanced.

LightningGus
19-10-2007, 00:17
Falcon spam is cheese IMO even if you only have 20 models besides your tanks. In the right situations 6 harlies could wipe out 20 of your opponents models in the course of the game, including terminators, carnifexes and a whole array of other meanies. Falcons make it very easy to set up such situations. It may be possible to beat mech eldar, but it takes much more effort for the player opposing the mech cheese to win than the player using it.

Though I think rating a player lowly for categories that have nothing to do with the cheesy army list (painting, sports, ect) is worse than playing with the cheesy list. I also think that players rating other players lowly just because they got massacred is pretty weak.

I think I will just take my cheezdar army with three falcons, and be sure that when I get placed with someone with a list just as 'ard then i will be on equal footing. If I play someone with a fluffy bunny or themed list and they feel like taking their loss out on my softscores, I'll just have to take it in stride.

Thank you all for your insight.

Cry of the Wind
19-10-2007, 01:25
One last thing to consider as you embark down the dark path that the triple Falcon army will lead you on, winning game after game after game based more on list selection than anything else gets tiring. I played that army in my own version (Howling Banshees and lots of Vypers and jetbikes Saim-Hann style) for over a year in almost every tournament I entered. While my own skilled allowed me to get massacres, it was the list that almost always guaranteed the win. I've found the army has become beneath my skill level as it no longer provides me with the challenge that I entered tournaments to get at in the first place.

You may find it fun for awhile but sooner or later you're going to start looking to other armies to provide you with some challenge to keep you interested, I myself am working on an Inquisitor fluff based army that will be sent into the same tournament environment my Eldar were and I'll be trying to keep my win record the same without the holo-field crutch. It will be nice to not have scores marked down before the game has even started for a change, and to not be considered a jerk just for putting a model on the table. Those things can get to you over time. Consider yourself warned...

banik
19-10-2007, 01:51
Calling "Cheese" is just people's way of dealing with things they don't like or don't understand how to approach. Every army has units that are tough, have special rules, or are the most efficient to you- it's a player's responsibility to moderate themselves.

Personally, I think armies with 3+ saves all around are worse than anything eldar can field. The eldar themselves are Very fragile in a world of bolters and T3. The special units that are tougher than normal are what makes up for this.

Voodoo Boyz
19-10-2007, 02:45
Voodoo Boyz... ever played eldar just outa curiosity? Cuz when you do having 1 really smashee tank gets pretty overshadowed, by 16-35 point T3 models.

Tank is insane, army is ballanced.

Funny, I'm going through the ideas of a competitive Eldar army with someone in our gaming group now, to help them out. I know almost exactly what I'd run for the army if I was going to play it competitively to win. And it would take the Eldar, who are supposed to be fragile, and make them one of the toughest things in the game to kill.

Besides, just because the other parts of the list are balanced, but will lose to other power lists, doesn't excuse the fact that it's OK that Eldar get to be more broken with certain units.

If I could redo the codex gammut, toning down the Falcon would be high on the list, and so would toning down Marines and Nidzilla. As it is, Eldar get really high on the "broken chart", because of this combo.

Sovereign
19-10-2007, 02:51
the Eldar, who are supposed to be fragile,
Where do people get this idea from?

Eldar are expensive and hard as hell to kill. That is a "Dying Race" trying very hard not to die any more.

The idea that Eldar should be easy to kill or die in droves is nonsense. They're not a horde like Guardsmen or Orks!

Reinholt
19-10-2007, 03:14
Having also played the triple Falcon army, I will say this:

It's a freaking beast. Yes, you can be very skilled and win convincingly with it. However, you can also be mostly unskilled and win very convincingly with it.

It's a very good tournament list for that reason - if you are skilled, and you have that list, you have all of the odds stacked in your favor.

Usually.

My one word of caution is that as people become more used to the list in tournament settings, there are a couple of other lists that come up that can wreck it. You're going to fare very well against double-lash, and you are going to fare very well against a lot of static gunline armies.

However, there are two kinds of armies that will give you serious trouble. Army one is any kind of army that is a massive horde you don't really want to get near ('nids come to mind), because then the ability to deliver your troops quickly into assault or close range shooting translates to the ability to lose the game with astounding speed. This will vary by scenario, because VP denial might still work well.

The other kind are highly mobile also shooty armies. Mech Tau (who can pack enough firepower to bring down Falcons if they get good shots off), Landspeeder heavy ravenwing, or really anyone with the manueverability to consistently block back armor so you can't unload into assault is going to give you major issues.

So just heads up, but it is an easy list to play. If GW's design strategy is any indication, however, expect it to have the hell nerfed out of it in the next codex and for something that currently sucks to become very good.

Enjoy.

Voodoo Boyz
19-10-2007, 03:14
I dunno, all I ever hear is that they're supposed to be the "fragile" army, because they're all T3. Never mind that T3 4+ or 3+ save is so much more durable than T4 with a 5+ or 6+.

Regardless, nothing should be as durable as a skimmer with holofields+spiritstones. Not in this game. Could you imagine if Space Marines or Chaos could just drive up a Land Raider straight up into the face of enemy lines from 24" away and have as good a chance of survival as a Falcon does?

There would be screams of cheese from across the land.

elvinltl
19-10-2007, 03:33
Actually 3 Falcons is cheese from an Eldar Player point of view.

Three Falcons requires THREE fast attack options to block its rear. And by blocking, you risk your 3 Fast Attack to openfire...

Gensuke626
19-10-2007, 04:05
I always got the idea that Eldar are Fragile because Their main battle tanks are easy to damage, they aren't particularly tough and they come in small numbers. The tanks are only nearly unkillable because of the Skimmers Moving Fast + Holofield rule. If you look at their tanks...it doesn't take alot to be able to get damage rolls on them...it just takes a ton of damage rolls to get the results you want. The Falcon and Wave Serpent fall very nicely into Medium Tank territory.

I figure when the new Orkz are released, we'll see if Eldar are as unbeatable as they used to be. Not even counting in the Big Grabber, just the sheer number of shots that Lootaz will be putting out should get just enough glances to disable a Falcon...which is where skill comes into play...

Squallish
19-10-2007, 04:27
I have played the 3 Heavy Skimmer cheese list (this past week I played a 2000pt list with 6 Skimmers) and it is really easy to pick apart an Elite army with them.. Where I've had problems with this in the past is against Horde armies with good shooting. Sadly.. this is 2-3 lists in the game.. and that's the problem.

- Dark Eldar (warrior spam)
- Imperial Guard (so many guns, not enough Assault Phases to remove them)
- certain Orks and Nids (shooty lists glance the tanks, then they have enough bodies to survive the weakened shooting)

elvinltl
19-10-2007, 05:14
I always got the idea that Eldar are Fragile because Their main battle tanks are easy to damage, they aren't particularly tough and they come in small numbers. The tanks are only nearly unkillable because of the Skimmers Moving Fast + Holofield rule. If you look at their tanks...it doesn't take alot to be able to get damage rolls on them...it just takes a ton of damage rolls to get the results you want. The Falcon and Wave Serpent fall very nicely into Medium Tank territory.

I figure when the new Orkz are released, we'll see if Eldar are as unbeatable as they used to be. Not even counting in the Big Grabber, just the sheer number of shots that Lootaz will be putting out should get just enough glances to disable a Falcon...which is where skill comes into play...

I agree... I mean even if you can only glance, if you glance enough you can literally render a Falcon useless. At that rate Eldar players would rather opt for a cheaper Waveserpent with a larger transporting Capacity of 10 infantries.

But one point you must realise that when you mean SHEER it does translate to an outrageouly amount of Firepower focused on a Falcon. That could very well mean requiring 400 points to take out a 200 points Falcon. If the Eldar player fields 3 Falcon, that means at 1500 points you almost dedicated your entire army to just down 3 Falcons which isn't very effective.
The Eldar opponent could very well just laugh away when he puts 3 Falcon AND a Fortuned SeerCouncil on Jetbike to give you double trouble.

Jaeger48
19-10-2007, 05:26
As a Tau and Eldar player I like running armies that have low toughness because I never had the desire for that t4, 3+ crutch. Has anyone even stopped to look at Necrons against any sort of MECH list????

Let's glance on a 6 and auto wound that expensive Wraithlord on 6s as well. The point of any shooting is to make the other player take saves, whether it means stacking glancing shots on a skimmer or loading down a high toughness model.

I first thought the Master of the Ravenwing was broken when taken with his speeder. He costs as much as my Falcon but still has rear armor 10. He dashes around and I try to hit his rear armor with my Vypers and shuri-cans.

It all boils down to good tactics, not just in your face shooting or combat. In a recent friendly 1,000 pt game I was running my first Elfdar list.

H1-Wraithlord and Brightlance with 2 flamers,
H2- War Walker with misslepod and scatter laser
T1-Dire Avengers with Ex, Bstorm, and xtra shuri-
T2-Same but with Wave Serpent with vectored engines, TW Shuri-can, and upgrade shuri-can
E1- 8 scorpions in a Wave Serpent same as above,

HQ- Farseer w/Doom attached to the scorps.

My friend was playing Blood Angels and had his guys split into combat squads with missles, rhinos, a Baal pred, and an assault bike w/multi-melta ready to hit me.

He Assaulted the Scorpion serpent with his deathcomp and did 5 glancing hits with rending which crashed it. Even when people have to roll twice it is Completely possible to roll double 5s, etc and watch that vehicle go down.

The same friend shot down a Wave Serpent with his IG Junior Officer armed with a plasma pistol. I wanted to be w/in assault range the next turn so I chose not to bail out. He double-tapped that bitch out of the sky and laughed the whole time AS IT SHOULD BE. Some things are too funny to watch no matter what side you're on.

Anyway, Voodoo- take a Midol, watch Bridget Jones and cry through your bleeding time because your rant just doesn't work.

Voodoo Boyz
19-10-2007, 11:34
Anyway, Voodoo- take a Midol, watch Bridget Jones and cry through your bleeding time because your rant just doesn't work.

Ohhh wow, someone wants to start getting personal here. That's fun.:rolleyes:

So what was it that made you upset? My constant insistence to bringing up logical arguments as to why the Falcon is too survivable and what broken things it allows to be done in the context of the Eldar army?

You want to play the cheese game, then fine, I can and have played it too. Of course when you complain that I'm using Las/Plas+Assault Cannon marines or Zilla Nids, I'm going to respond in kind.

Kalesh of Altansar
19-10-2007, 13:45
Anyway, Voodoo- take a Midol, watch Bridget Jones and cry through your bleeding time because your rant just doesn't work.

Wow that was a bit over the top. Can we atleast try to remain civil?

I do not think the problem lies with the Falcon or its upgrades. I think the problem should be addressed in the BGB. Change the rules for fast skimmers. Perhaps glancing hits are only scored on a skimmer that moves 12" or more inches. Get rid of the rule for assulting them needing 6's to hit. Allow jumppack troops to use normal means to hit them or give jump troops an ability like the Swooping hawks intercept ability 4+ to hit in CC. I think the field should stay the way it is for the purposes of shooting.

Please remember the Falcon is not a MBT as some of you are saying it is. The Fire Prism is the MBT.

Voodoo Boyz
19-10-2007, 13:57
Wow that was a bit over the top. Can we atleast try to remain civil?

I do not think the problem lies with the Falcon or its upgrades. I think the problem should be addressed in the BGB. Change the rules for fast skimmers. Perhaps glancing hits are only scored on a skimmer that moves 12" or more inches. Get rid of the rule for assulting them needing 6's to hit. Allow jumppack troops to use normal means to hit them or give jump troops an ability like the Swooping hawks intercept ability 4+ to hit in CC. I think the field should stay the way it is for the purposes of shooting.

Please remember the Falcon is not a MBT as some of you are saying it is. The Fire Prism is the MBT.

Chagne the rules for Fast Skimmers and you screw the Tau over, and SM's with speeders.

The Skimmers Moving Fast rule is actually balanced with the Tau stuff. They're tougher to take down than a Predator sure, but no where near impossible.

In fact it's balanced on the Waveserpent too, which BTW, is the most survivable dedicated/troop transport available in the game (not counting LR's for Termies).

The problem with Falcons, and Prisms for that matter, is the specific combo of Holofields+Spirit Stones+Skimmers Moving Fast rule.

THAT is what needs to be changed in order to restore balance to the Eldar book.

Captain Micha
19-10-2007, 14:11
It's easy enough to down tau stuff I count on losing at least 1 hammerhead, and 1 devilfish per 1000 point game.

That being said, I've never seen a falcon drop.. not even one individual one.

what kalesh proposes would screw us(being everyone else with skimmers) out of survivability while only marginally harming the falcon... That's not a nerf to the falcon really, it's a nerf to everything else.

And I'm abit sick of people saying "oh you just don't know how to play against them. you use several medium str shots" bs.. str 6 needs a glance to even hurt the thing, and I don't know about you but 6s are pretty hard to roll consistently, second... to ever down a falco you -always- have to fire much more than it's point cost. and that's often times to just shake the crew let alone actually downing one. I've soaked countless points of med-high str weapons into falcos and time and time again they and their stupofield with stones rise above the firepower that would obliterate an entire squad of troops.

yet 210pts of broadsides will all but guarantee putting a monolith down. Which is supposed to be the hardest vehicle in the game.

vypers gain survivability equal to hammerheads with holofields and spirit stones... -that- alone should tell you the imbal involved. and no, no they don't cost nearly as much

gitburna
19-10-2007, 14:17
Ok, couldnt decide wether this should go here or in the falcon thread, but how about if the falcon changed to AV11 and kept its holofield and spirit stones, and the fireprism remained at AV12.. The fireprism is still hard to take out - after all its an MBT - but it can only reeeally suffer one weapon destroyed before it becomes pretty useless. The falcon retains firepower, transport ability and is hard to destroy [though fairly easy to cause light damage to it] and the waveserpent remains as is...
It seems as though, while fireprisms are nasty, that the falcons convenient transport ability [just handy for a hit squad of firedragons or harlequins] and multiple guns [which also add to its survivability] are the real reasons why it is so popular compared to, well, pretty much every other option.
[edit - in ultrahard competitive lists]

Anathema
19-10-2007, 14:19
That being said, I've never seen a falcon drop.. not even one individual one.


You either haven't been playing enough games, need new dice or aren't very good then. The last 2 games I've played I've lost a Falcon and Fire Prism in both of them. Oh and a Wave serpent as well.

Say it with me....anecdotal evidence means NOTHING.

Kalesh of Altansar
19-10-2007, 14:20
I respectfully disagree with your thoughts on the Falcon. I would expect the BGB to be changed before the codex does. Proposing a fix there would be better than thinking GW is going to rewrite a New Codex. I believe that they will not rewrite it for atleast 4-6 years. So Falcons are here to stay boys.

Kirasu
19-10-2007, 14:23
Coming from an eldar player who plays in a lot of tournaments I think Ive had a falcon die .. once? Maybe? in my past 20 or so games.. I was just surprised GW put in vectored engines and changed spirit stones... Sure you could ignore shaken before, but now you can never get stunned which makes the falcon/prism that much harder to actually destroy

There is no viable strategy to destroying one of them, unless the eldar player lets you mov eyour entire army behind it and shoot at the rear.. even then that's a "maybe"

A strategy of "shoot it till it dies" isnt really a strategy btw

elvinltl
19-10-2007, 14:26
I've got a feeling the thread is going to derail into another Falcon Rant/Bashing Thread...

Captain Micha
19-10-2007, 14:29
unfortunately I have to agree that they are.. but it'd be nice to have the developer actually think abit more in the future.

my dice are good.. but they can't be expected to be super good to constantly roll double sixes, or a six and a five.

My tactics are fine, especially when I apply the supposed methods that you're supposed to use (which btw are bs at even str 7 thats a 5 just to glance... then you're saying that on average someone's going to roll another 4+ twice? I don't think so.

Say it with me. that race's players defending a unit that they like to use means NOTHING. The only defenders of the invincible falco build are guess what it's users. I can defend nidzilla.. broken as it is, it's beatable. Even ass cannon spam with 6 man las plas is defeatable. the monoliths? can be popped and popped easily. The sad part? even without invincible falcon the eldar are quite capable at trouncing these builds with a halfway intelligent player behind them. It's not like that is the -only- good thing in your dex... Otherwise I'd let it slide

You're right... my thinking is flawed. I should be using LOADED dice to beat invincible falcon. That is clearly the only equally hosed method to beat them. Maybe I should get some today.. Thanks, you just made it real easy for me to beat invincible falco. I hope you enjoy my special "falcon dice"

Kalesh of Altansar
19-10-2007, 14:29
I've got a feeling the thread is going to derail into another Falcon Rant/Bashing Thread...

With a title like Eldar cheese....... yeah probably.

Captain Micha
19-10-2007, 14:34
I can't think of another super cheese build in the Eldar dex. I can think of builds that really kick ass and take names in the hands of the right player and in the right situation, but those require skill on the general's part...

cheese is the unit plays itself, chances are if some part of you goes giggly like a lil school girl at the thought of taking 3 or more choices of something, you should probably actually think about why you're taking something. As a power gamer (and I used to be a very nasty one at that... I'd spend long hours finding ways to abuse a system or rules) some part of my mind started said giggling when I read the falcon's rules.... I thought "man I should start eldar, and use this to deliver my harlequins" and then I thought about it... "wait... that's not exactly fluffy... I was going to use a house ruled venom.... now why did my mind suddenly do that?" Then it dawned on me just about the time I started playing against guess what..3 falco, 2 falco, and 1 falcon as to what part of my brain really spoke there.

so why would you expect it to turn into anything else?

I love harlequins fluffwise. I really liked the online codex that they had for them I was going to use a nerfed version of it for my own Harlie force. So no I'm not simply some Eldar hater. I was and am still considering sam hain (sp hate that word though) and an Inyaden armies.

BenK
19-10-2007, 14:44
Haven't played with or against Eldar for aaaaaaages so I can't comment from experience, but I will say this: The anti-falcon folks are much more persuasive than the pro-falcon folks. Pro-falcon arguments seem to boil down to "it's possible to kill it, so it's not unbalanced."

It's not about whether or not it's possible to kill, it's about how easy it is to kill compared to units of a similar role and points cost. When a superfast eldar vehicle that can deliver a payload of uber-assault troops is tougher than a land raider for less points something is wrong with the vehicle.

I say abolish holofields. Why wouldn't you?

And this is coming from a guy who's planning to build a mech Eldar list over the summer.

Forbiddenknowledge
19-10-2007, 15:10
All my pro-falcon arguement got shouted down by "No we can't! Nerf it!"

I have never had a problem against them, and when using them, they can be dropped. Either the people I play against are just super amazing/lucky all the time, or they simply accept weight of fire.

Thats the eldar strategy - look at them in gothic. You have to fill space with explosions (weapon Batteries) because precision weapons can't target them.

Its the same with 40k - fill the air with lead and you will drop them.

I guess this will just get ignored, though, as I play eldar.

[hr]

On a side note, when did this forum get so whiney? I stopped coming here for a while, and when I return, everywhere people are bashing this, and bashing that. What happened?

Captain Micha
19-10-2007, 15:19
gw forums died.

aside from that, this is 40k general *L*.

Anathema
19-10-2007, 16:28
OK, lets look at it this way. I am not a Falcon spammer. I use 1 in my tournament army, without Vectored Engines (as I have already outlined I don't think this combo should be allowed).
1 glance out of 9 will down it, it can get glanced by a hell of a lot of weaponry. Vectored Engines shouldn't be allowed on it IMO, but apart from that its fine.
Fine its very hard to kill with a single shot. However this is balanced out by the fact that everything stronger than dedicated anti-infantry units can glance it, generating a lot more glances than every other army's MBT has to suffer.
As it is, I think its fine. I'm not a fan of those taking 3 as I think they're unimaginative and boring, not to mention the army is overspecialised and will suffer against horde armies. Making it 0-1 wouldn't bother me in the slightest, and I'm a strong proponent of making harlequins 0-1 too.

So, don't allow it Vectored Engines and make Space Clowns 0-1 and you're sorted. Of course people would then find something else to complain about I'm sure. No-one complained when you could bomb 2 squads of Banshees and a unit of Dragons in 3rd ed.

Amnar
19-10-2007, 18:00
I think a lot of that has to do with the changes in the assault rules as well. Even though the falcon doesn't have assault status, a 24 inch move and extremely high durability make it comparatively so much better at assaulting than pretty much all other transports (except maybe for raiders)

Captain Micha
19-10-2007, 18:07
potentially 36 inches get it right

Sovereign
19-10-2007, 18:24
That being said, I've never seen a falcon drop.. not even one individual one.
So? How many VPs have you seen the typical Falcon score?

Falcons are VP denial, but they don't score much VPs directly, either.


The anti-falcon folks are much more persuasive than the pro-falcon folks.
Nah. They're simply more vocal. They have this presumption that they *should* be able to kill Falcons, and I'm not convinced of that at all.

Kalesh of Altansar
19-10-2007, 18:38
Sovereign you simply do not get it. If they can't just shoot at it a couple of times and it does not die it does not deserve to be in the game. Stupidundercostedbrokentothemaxfalcons.

Some of these replies are starting to get rather humorous. I think I am going to start a thread about how 3+ power armor is cheese. All Marines need to be nerfed.

I guess the Eldar as a superior race do not deserve a rock hard target. Silly me. Oh and get rid of the holofields eh? They are doing exactly what the fluff describes them to do. They stop shooting cold.

Let me state this again the BGB needs to change the rules for fast skimmers if anything. They should be assualtable but in no way should a Falcon be able to be shot to pieces easily.

Why don't all you Falcon complainers just tell people that set a Falcon down on the table "You win!" I mean you might as well. Surley it would be easier than having the vein on your forehead pop out everytime you see a Falcon.

Rant on Falcon haters!

Captain Micha
19-10-2007, 18:47
It's not a couple of times. spending half a game unloading high strength weaponry into it, is not a mere couple of times.

But alas obviously we -all- must be ****** incapable of beating 'superior' eldar tactics. including those of us who are tournament winners, play multiple armies including Eldar, and actually have a sense of balance

And yes you -should- be able to kill falcons..... or should I simply make a house rule that states this "Monoliths are immune to the glancing chart and the first half of the penetrating chart" I think that might very well put things back into balance.. at least for my necrons

If the Necrons don't have a near invincible vehicle. why do the Eldar get one? who are supposed to be the super skilled person with the glass jaw? where as necrons are supposed to be the rock hard, implacable foe?

Ps, you know, if everyone perceives something as broken, that space marines are bound to get a rule like it sooner or later right?

silverdragon
19-10-2007, 19:01
Seems a lot of people are upset about the Falcon enough to actually suggest that the front and side armor be lowered to 11. This solution cripples Falcon's without the Holofield and Spirit Stones. Now you are forcing every Eldar player to take those upgrades because their Heavy Tank (which has the armor of most armies Medium tank) now has paper thin armor. I think this is a horrible solution. Why does everyone think a bolter should take down the most advanced race's tanks easily? Because its a skimmer doesn't mean it shouldn't still have a decent amount of armor - it still is a tank after all - the Eldar main battle tank.

Some people are also under-costing a Falcon. With HF, SS, Vectored Engines, Scatter Laser, and a Shuriken Cannon upgrade you are looking at a tank that costs over 200 pts. Add a 6 man squad of Fire Dragons or Harlequins and you are easily over 300 pts, closer to 325. When a player takes 3 Falcons they have almost 1000 pts tied up in 3 units that while durable are incredibly easy to stun. While the falcons are stunned and the cargo is in the transport the eldar player has 1000 points worth of units which are very easy to nullify. More than half of his army is not even shooting or temporarily ineffective. How many points does it take to accomplish this? - probably a third of that, maybe a half in some armies. So the eldar player has 1000 pts neutralized for a turn by your 300-400. That gives a player a 600-700 pt advantage with the rest of his army.

Falcons are also Eldar's only reliable way of getting CC troops into CC. Eldar have a lot of good CC units which are T3 and come in small numbers without open topped transports. To compensate for this the Eldar need a durable transport to get them there and stand a good chance of surviving a round of shooting. Ever see Banshees consistently get into CC by hoofing it on foot. The only Eldar CC unit I have consistently seen get into CC on foot are harlequins. While many other armies have CC units that are T3 or have crappy armor saves, they either have open topped transports they can assault from(orks+dark eldar) or are very cheap and come in big groups (tyranids+orks). The Falcon therefore lets eldar players a decent chance of getting CC troops into CC without being torn apart, however it trades off half the transport capacity of a Wave Serpent to do that.

When Falcons rush forward to deliver their payloads is when I rejoice. More often then not I can block the ramp, and by rushing forward the real weakness of the Falcon is revealed - 10 AV on the back. Now bolters, catapults and even my flesh borers can cause glancing hits in abundance. This is the kitted Falcon's big weakness next to the other 200+ pt transports - Land Raiders and Monolith's.

It seems to be the main concern with Falcons is the Holofield+Spirit Stone OR the ability to rush 24" and tank shock units off objectives last turn. I could live with the Holofield + Spirit Stone combo acting as venerable as long as a Holofield w/out spirit stone stayed roll 2D6 and pick the lowest.

However, I think that if the Falcon outcry is still going to continue than the following is a better fix = a Vehicle moving over 12" in a turn (i.e. 24") cannot contest an objective until the player's next turn - I think that would stop a lot of the complaining about VP denial and taking objectives last turn. Now playing VP denial would hurt Eldar skimmers and prevent them from easy wins last turn. Now they would have to use more tactics to position skimmers within 12 " of objectives a turn earlier or force Eldar players to get other units at the objective if a 24" tank shock is going to be used.

A couple things to remember:
Any army without mobility is not going to fare well against an eldar army that has Falcons, troops in Serpents, and Jetbikes. Same as mech tau

Falcons are vulnerable to more types of weapons than other 200+ pt transport/main tank (monolith/land raider). There are many more Str 6 and 7 shots in the majority of lists than there are str 8 and 9 shots needed to take out more durable targets.

If a Falcon is being used as a transport, in order to drop of the most common cargo, Dragons and Harlequins, the Falcon must get very close to your line. This should expose the falcons weak rear armor - a weakness the other 200+ pt transports do not suffer from. If you do not have fast troops to block the ramps or at least move in to position to shoot many low str shots into the back armor, your opponent out maneuvered you. Marines also have closed top vehicles with very weak rear armor to transport CC units(Rhino). However, rhinos are dirt cheap and can drop of their troops earlier (marines can survive a turn of shooting to get into CC).

Jaeger48
19-10-2007, 20:22
Falcons are also Eldar's only reliable way of getting CC troops into CC. Eldar have a lot of good CC units which are T3 and come in small numbers without open topped transports. To compensate for this the Eldar need a durable transport to get them there and stand a good chance of surviving a round of shooting. Ever see Banshees consistently get into CC by hoofing it on foot. The only Eldar CC unit I have consistently seen get into CC on foot are harlequins. While many other armies have CC units that are T3 or have crappy armor saves, they either have open topped transports they can assault from(orks+dark eldar) or are very cheap and come in big groups (tyranids+orks). The Falcon therefore lets eldar players a decent chance of getting CC troops into CC without being torn apart, however it trades off half the transport capacity of a Wave Serpent to do that.
A couple things to remember:
Any army without mobility is not going to fare well against an eldar army that has Falcons, troops in Serpents, and Jetbikes. Same as mech tau

Falcons are vulnerable to more types of weapons than other 200+ pt transport/main tank (monolith/land raider). There are many more Str 6 and 7 shots in the majority of lists than there are str 8 and 9 shots needed to take out more durable targets.

If a Falcon is being used as a transport, in order to drop of the most common cargo, Dragons and Harlequins, the Falcon must get very close to your line. This should expose the falcons weak rear armor - a weakness the other 200+ pt transports do not suffer from. If you do not have fast troops to block the ramps or at least move in to position to shoot many low str shots into the back armor, your opponent out maneuvered you. Marines also have closed top vehicles with very weak rear armor to transport CC units(Rhino). However, rhinos are dirt cheap and can drop of their troops earlier (marines can survive a turn of shooting to get into CC).

I completely agree with Silverdragon's comments and hope he father's my children because my seed is bitter.

The cargo isn't necessarily a concern to most people because yes, MEQs can curb stomp most eldar units without a problem. Eldar transports only deserve armor 12 because of their speed and skimming rule- they shouldn't get the Hammerhead FA 13 and anything less should put them in a fast attack slot.

If you took a unit of marines on bikes, or even a single land speeder and flanked that falcon I would have a hard time not crapping myself as the Eldar player. Assault cannon and melta from behind are extremely effective and would give me cause for pause.

I get most frustrated (hence some personal jabbing) when other players react with anger instead of looking at their own list and think of ways to get creative.

Once again, I only have 1 falcon because I love other Heavy units in the Eldar force. Dark Reapers are AMAZING at knocking down MEQs and with WarWalkers being dirt cheap (my favorite 1,000 pt list has 2 War Walkers, each a slot with a Scatter Laser and Missle launcher- and people tend to ignore that 65pt model and concentrate on the scorpions at their backdoor) that taking 3 shouldn't really be an option. There are some tactics and lists that aren't balanced but there are things that can counter them.

I hate playing godzilla lists- not because they are cheesy but because I don't normally bring enough snipers in a static list to counter their toughness. I only play against people that I enjoy playing against and the odd low (1500pt max) store tourneys because the people I play with want the game to be fun. Period-

Sovereign
19-10-2007, 20:37
And yes you -should- be able to kill falcons.....
AV12 means it can be Glanced by anything S6+.

Glancing 6 = Destroyed.

End of discussion. :p

Amnar
19-10-2007, 21:13
I think what a lot of people here don't get is that the number one thing that pisses people off about the falcon is that it pretty much uses a different vehicle damage chart than anything else. I don't care what the AV is etc., I just hate that it's pretty much on a completely different damage chart. It's very frustrating.

Sovereign
19-10-2007, 21:35
I think what a lot of people here don't get is that the number one thing that pisses people off about the falcon is that it pretty much uses a different vehicle damage chart than anything else. I don't care what the AV is etc., I just hate that it's pretty much on a completely different damage chart. It's very frustrating.
I think what a lot of people don't get is that the Falcon doesn't need to be a bog-standard Land Raider following bog-standard rules.

At 200 pts, the Falcon isn't likely to earn its VPs back directly, so it needs to be good at something else. Maybe if it were 100 pts, it could be "easy" to kill. But then it would be playing a very different role.

What irritates me is this notion that MEQs should be able to kill everything with the same low level of effort, when things vary widely across the 40k universe. Somethings are just hard to kill. Falcons can be one of those things that are hard to kill.

But what irritates me even more is the MEQ notion that the only way to neutralize something is by shooting it to death with Las/Plas. Yes, Las/Plas is good. And in 6-man squads, it's very points efficient. But there are other ways to play SM that don't rely on such a crutch.

And finally, it's irritating that MEQs can't get around the idea that you can defeat something without destroying it. That you can beat armies without destroying all of their models.

I think it would probably be better for the game if the Holofield simply had the rule "ignores all Vehicle Destroyed results". People would probably do a much better job playing against the Eldar armies once they got it into their heads.

Phazael
19-10-2007, 21:56
Vectored Engines was the worst mistake in the entire new Eldar Dex (clowns as elite, and not HQ, a close second). Its pretty obvious they never thought through the rammifications of how it would affect point denial builds. It should simply allow eldar to assault out of the transport as if it were open topped (with a limited 12" move, not really super abusive, and people might start using aspect warriors again, instead of clowns) and it never should have been allowed to be combined with holofields in any form. But this is just one of many screwups in that codex, and because it has MEQs in emo mode, its getting the most attention.

Amnar
19-10-2007, 22:20
I think what a lot of people don't get is that the Falcon doesn't need to be a bog-standard Land Raider following bog-standard rules.

At 200 pts, the Falcon isn't likely to earn its VPs back directly, so it needs to be good at something else. Maybe if it were 100 pts, it could be "easy" to kill. But then it would be playing a very different role.

What irritates me is this notion that MEQs should be able to kill everything with the same low level of effort, when things vary widely across the 40k universe. Somethings are just hard to kill. Falcons can be one of those things that are hard to kill.

But what irritates me even more is the MEQ notion that the only way to neutralize something is by shooting it to death with Las/Plas. Yes, Las/Plas is good. And in 6-man squads, it's very points efficient. But there are other ways to play SM that don't rely on such a crutch.

And finally, it's irritating that MEQs can't get around the idea that you can defeat something without destroying it. That you can beat armies without destroying all of their models.

I think it would probably be better for the game if the Holofield simply had the rule "ignores all Vehicle Destroyed results". People would probably do a much better job playing against the Eldar armies once they got it into their heads.

Seriously, what a load..... defeat something without destroying? So hey, how do you win your 40k games? Do you kill the other's guy stuff? What kind of game do you think 40k is? It all boils down to killing the other guy's stuff. Try to keep yours alive and kill his.

Being hard to kill in of itself isn't unbalanced. Being significantly harder to kill than anything else in the game is. You try to make it sound like 40k is this super tactical, complex, game, when really it's not. Unfair units make for unfair builds make for unfair games and that's just not fun.

Everyone loses, losing isn't a big deal, but it's extremely frustrating playing against things that are so durable that it breaks the balance on the board. Land Raider, Monolith, and Falcon are all 200+, yet the cheapest one is definately the most durable. If that's not a wtf moment, I don't know what is.

Trinary
19-10-2007, 23:24
40k is not all about killing the other guys stuff... Not in a tournament, nor in just for fun scenarios. Killing is one way to win. But take it from a guy who tends to decimate his opponents combat effectiveness; I lose a fair number of games to guys who have less VP alive, but are in a better VP position.

The only tactic the Falcon is exceptional at is grabbing VP at the last moment through positioning. If you keep your units in pairs then the small unit that dissembarks will get mowed down by one of any of those pairs that is within 12". It does not have enough firepower with decent BS unless you have it guided (and even then there are better things to guide) to compare to pretty much any other anti-infantry or anti-tank dedicated vehicle. It can steal its own VP (roughly 200-230) and it can steal objective VPs...

MEQ armies should not have a tough time dealing with VP stealing... In most games other armies (ie. guard, 'nid, orks) have the numbers to bring it down if they want to. If you are playing MEQ and you are worried about anyone (not just the Falcon) stealing objective VPs, then make your way to the centre of the board. Most objectives are somewhere near the centre. The best VP scenario that is not centre oriented is table quarters... all of which you have access to from the centre. So many MEQ armies spread out and hunker down. Of course a mech Eldar list is going to rip you a new one for that tactic. They excell at high strength precision attacks. When marines (or their equivilant) wagon wheel, even without excellent cover, they are damn hard for a mech Eldar list to crack. We (the Eldar players) tend to get one good punch in then have to wheather return fire. Seldom do mech Eldar lists have the numbers to bring a bolter-equivilant army below half its fire power, which means the equal sized or better MEQ list will do as much damage (even at half strength) at that short range as our whole army did in one strike.

And no its not a guarentee... And yes, the tanks will more than likely survive. But a 200+ tank is worth precisely its VP if it is still alive if even only four scoring units are in the 12" centre of of the board in most scenarios.

Sovereign
20-10-2007, 00:12
40k is not all about killing the other guys stuff...
Well, it *shouldn't* be.

Yeah, people play a ton of line-em-up-and fight games for VPs, but those get kinda boring after a while.

I think 40k is best when it's played Scenarios for Objectives.

Looking back, my absolute best game was in a Tournament in which I scored bonus VP for killing enemy units, but he had the first turn and board control. I squeaked out a win by focusing on objectives and bonuses, even though he ended up killing me to a man. He was pissed, but it really was his fault for not managing his attack better against the objectives and bonuses.

Reinholt
20-10-2007, 00:39
I still have yet to see a persuasive pro-Falcon argument that addresses the point cost issue.

The Falcon is not, in and of itself, broken. It is most especially not broken without taking the spirit stones / holofields combo. Without them in tandem, I think it is perfectly, appropriately pointed, in fact. Maybe even a touch overcosted.

However, with them, it becomes the toughest vehicle in the game! The problem is also, in fact, not that this is unfair. Sure, maybe the Eldar do deserve it. They are sneaky as hell. The problem is that it's not pointed appropriately for the role it can fill. Somehow this fast, tough vehicle which is capable of claiming table quarters and has a gun potentially strong enough to down any vehicle in the game costs less than the Land Raider, less than the Monolith, less than a standard Tactical squad, less than most well-equipped Eldar aspect warrior squads, etc.

It's not the Falcon that is a problem inherently; it is the Falcon as a scoring transport with holofields, spirit stones, and possibly vectored engines for the cost you can purchase it at!

The reasons I consider it a no-brainer to see this:

1) I have not played an Eldar list, among seven Eldar players, without a Falcon since the new book came out.

2) All of these Falcons (one or more) were ALL equipped with holofields and spirit stones. Every single one! That's about 14 Falcons all upgraded identically! When everyone's army list has a completely identical unit(s) and everyone takes the same options, you know something is too cheap. Every single Eldar player I know fields at least one, in this configuration.

3) Again, the only people I see defending it, ever, are Eldar players. It's much the same as people who try to defend the assault cannon spam / lasplas min-maxing. Coincidentally, ALL of them are marine players. Or how the only people who really defend 'Nidzilla are Tyranid players. I'm not calling for the list to be hosed here, either. I just think the Falcon with those upgrades in tandem needs to be pointed appropriately. They, because of the synergy, should cost much more to take together than to take individually (or make them mutually exclusive), and then everything is fixed.

That's it. That's why you get the vocal opposition to it.

In the same way, that's why I'd advise taking it to a no-comp tournament. When everyone is trying to leverage their list to the max, look for the things that other people complain they can't beat, and bring those.

Sovereign
20-10-2007, 01:25
I still have yet to see a persuasive pro-Falcon argument that addresses the point cost issue.
I'm not sure there is, or should be, one. For the most part, the Holofalcon is basically the same as how Predators used to be when Hull Down gave automatic Glancing. It's not so much fun when the shoe's on the other foot is it.

There are a *lot* of no-brainer units out there, and for the most part, it is symptomatic of the games that are played, and the lists that are available.

By and large, Eldar armies need fire magnets to sheild the rest of the army. In the good old days, we had Wraithlords to do this for us. They would stride up with T8 Sv3+ and be just enough of a threat that the enemy would pour a ton of firepower at them so the rest of the army wouldn't suffer.

Now that 40k4 has moved to a more mobile environment, Wraithlords are quickly outmaneuvered in addition to being severely weakened. This is where Holofalcons come in, as the new fire magnets.

In the current environment, if Eldar Falcons were banned or removed from the list entirely, there really isn't any good unit to take as a replacement. In the Fire Dragon case, trying to substitute a 150-pt Wave Serpent represents such a drop in capability, you might as well not bother taking Fire Dragons. Similarly, without Falcon Transport, you wouldn't even bother taking Harlequins. They're just too fragile and expensive to field without extremely durable protective Transport. So if you want to pull Falcons, the rest of the list needs significant reworking to the point that you can't afford to have light infantry in the list.

I suspect you'd see Eldar players forced to play shift to massed Sv3+ Heavy Aspects (Scorpions/Wraithguard, Jetbikes, Warp Spiders, Reapers/Wraithlords) - very MEQ-like, but even here, the per-model points cost is very high.

Anyhow, I don't see the urgency. Even if triple Holofalcons created an auto-win situation (which nobody seems to be claiming to be the case), they're still not common enough to distort the metagame. And that is where things would actually begin to matter.

If you want GW to nerf the Holofalcon, you're going to need to sell your MEQ army, buy a triple Holofalcon army, and win with it at the next UK GT. Along with a whole bunch of your buddies.

And even then, there's no guarantee, because GW *wants* to sell more Transports, sell more Eldar, and drive 40k towards a more balanced metagame.

Chimera
20-10-2007, 02:10
The full timer at my local store positively encourages mechanised Eldar use - but mainly because he thinks Eldar tanks are gorgeous models and, with a decent paint job, looks stunning on the battlefield.

And he's right. If I were to play Eldar, I'd take Falcons and Wave Serpents because I love the models and you get lots of points for your cash. The fact that it's considered cheese, well, who cares? It's my army and I want it to look cool, so I take the cool models :cool:

chromedog
20-10-2007, 02:19
I don't think I've used a falcon in my games since 4th ed started. I tend to have more wave serpents and fire Prisms being used. Don't get me wrong, the Falcon is sex on a stick, but the fire prism has something more, so je ne sais pas but I can't say what it is. :D

Yes, the holofields/spirit stones do make it hard to kill. This being the counterpoint to their infantry units being so easy to gun down. :D

Vaktathi
20-10-2007, 02:51
without Falcon Transport, you wouldn't even bother taking Harlequins. They're just too fragile and expensive to field without extremely durable protective Transport. So if you want to pull Falcons, the rest of the list needs significant reworking to the point that you can't afford to have light infantry in the list.



Considering Harlies can't even be shot outside 24 at best, 14" on average, and have a fleet roll, I can't say I agree with you here. Yes they are fragile, yes they die to shooting very easily. But not having falcons does not invalidate the Harlies at all, especially as Harlie falcon rush isnt exactly the fluffiest tactic out there, I doubt this was heavily considered when designing the codex. That said, I don't think harlies are as overpowered as many like to think, as if anything hits back the harlies are not going to like it.

Personally I think the combination of Holofields/SMF/Spiritstones on a Fast unit that can dish out a ton of firepower, be it Falcon or Prism, especially fielded in 3's is often simply just too much for many armies (and not just the stereotypical las/plas min maxed lascannon/assault cannon armies either)

When an AV12 skimmer that by all fluff accounts is viewed as a somewhat fragile vehicle routinely outlives AV14 tanks that are supposed to be rugged and tough like Russ's and Land Raiders, something is wrong. If GW wanted super-survivable skimmers, then they should have just dropped SMF and gave them AV14, or added in a negative to-hit modifier to represent them being harder to hit rather than harder to hurt.

I am in no way advocating the removal of Fire Prisms/Falcons (I actually like the models very much) but I do think they need to be toned down or restricted by points level. Taking 3 Holofield tanks in anything under 2000pts is overdoing it, and while even I will concede that a mech eldar force with 3 holofield tanks can be perfectly in line with the fluff of many eldar armies, their firepower coupled with their survivability and speed simply make most other armies tanks completely overmatched. try matching a 155pt Leman Russ with a lascannon against a 160pt Fireprism and see what wins the vast majority of the time, or a Falcon with Missile launchers or bright lances (~200pts w/Holofields & spirit stones) against a Demolisher with a lascannon and sponsons multimelta's (195pts), either way the Eldar tank will almost always have a huge advantage in speed, survivability, and available anti-tank firepower for the same points cost. then compare each vehicles relative value to their respective armies and you can see even better the huge discrepancy in effectiveness.

EDIT: SMF never really made sense to me, why make a rule that a fast vehicle takes a hit less hard? Wouldnt it make more sense to make it harder to hit? If anything you'd think moving fast would make vehicles take even more damage from getting hit, but be harder to hit overall (and no, I don't mean the Immobilized=Dead rule, that's just the skimmer falling from the sky at top speed into the ground, You'd think an ordnance shell making a direct hit on a skimmer would pulverize it, but be very difficult to hit)

Sovereign
20-10-2007, 03:06
But not having falcons does not invalidate the Harlies at all,

If GW wanted super-survivable skimmers, then they should have just dropped SMF and gave them AV14, or added in a negative to-hit modifier to represent them being harder to hit rather than harder to hurt.

the Eldar tank will almost always have a huge advantage in speed, survivability, and available anti-tank firepower for the same points cost.

EDIT: SMF never really made sense to me, why make a rule that a fast vehicle takes a hit less hard?
While the Harlequin unit isn't bad, the question is how it fits into an army. There are lots of OK units, but if they don't fit into an army, then they won't be good.

GW *could* have done that, but they chose instead to have Eldar skimmers to be AV12 and survive via SMF and fields. Not everything needs to survive via sheer weight of armor. In the Eldar case, survivability is via speed and misdirection, which is superior to just carrying more armor.

The Eldar tank can't have all of these advantages at once. It's not possible to move 24" and fire Pulsar and Brightlance together, for example.

If SMF became "on a 2+, the hit is ignored", I'm not sure that would make anybody any happier.

Reinholt
20-10-2007, 03:09
If you want GW to nerf the Holofalcon, you're going to need to sell your MEQ army, buy a triple Holofalcon army, and win with it at the next UK GT. Along with a whole bunch of your buddies.

I'm curious as to why I'd need to sell my marines? Is having an Eldar army and an MEQ army in the same condo going to cause it to explode?

Even so, I actually have an Eldar army, so I'm not just talking out of my ass here. It's not terribly large (1500 points total) as of yet, for two reasons:

1 - I'm indecisive about what else I want to put in it
2 - I paint at about the same speed that twinkies bio-degrade.

So I'm still working on the new Ravenwing elements for my DA successor chapter, and will be for the next 20 years. Why did I pick red? Why couldn't I go with black? Why?

That aside, I have a Falcon in my Eldar army, and I'm quite fond of it... but I'm objective enough to know when things are a bit too good.

Vaktathi
20-10-2007, 03:24
.

If SMF became "on a 2+, the hit is ignored", I'm not sure that would make anybody any happier.

no, but I think maybe if it was on a 4+ or 5+ instead that might be workable. Or maybe just making it so they can only be hit on 5's and 6's but still be penetrated. Makes them harder to hit, not harder to hurt.

I dunno, that's just stuff I came up with off the top of my head.

Sovereign
20-10-2007, 04:33
I'm curious as to why I'd need to sell my marines?

Is having an Eldar army and an MEQ army in the same condo going to cause it to explode?

That aside, I have a Falcon in my Eldar army, and I'm quite fond of it... but I'm objective enough to know when things are a bit too good.
OK, I admit selling the Marines was a bit of hyperbole that tied back to the recent thread claiming CSM Codex must suck because people are selling their armies. The reference was a bit oblique, so I apologize for the confusion.

I've managed to keep an Eldar army and 2 MEQ armies in the same room without suffering any explosion. But both of my MEQ armies have been reworked far more severely than the Eldar army. Now that I've seen the light of the new-style Codices, my MEQs will no longer live in abject fear of having their arms torn off at a whim. I think.

I have 3 Falcons (from before they were known to be brokenly good), and will have at least 3 Wave Serpents (even though I know they're merely OK). I also own over 2 dozen Harlies (which sat out almost all of 3rd Edition), but have yet to field the whole kit together. Tho from the whining, I'm getting the feeling I ought to do it, just to feel the power before it goes away and they're all nerfed into oblivion.

Reinholt
20-10-2007, 07:14
We have a main-line Eldar player in my gaming group who likes to take three falcons when we are playing competitive games (we declare before game nights if it is going to be crazy ass night or friendly night so we know what to bring).

He rolls with harlies in one Falcon, fire dragons in another, and his scorpions in the third. It seems to work out very well for him. He has a counter to anything someone throws at him, and I've got to say that scorpion exarch is a son of a bitch.

Sometimes he goes double harlies and fire dragons, but it's always harlies in the first and fire dragons in the second; the third is what changes. So yeah, give it a whirl, and you'll see. It's fun to do a few times, or against other super cheesy armies.

Orbital
20-10-2007, 07:35
I still have yet to see a persuasive pro-Falcon argument that addresses the point cost issue.

I am an Eldar Player, and I approve of this message.*

*meaning, yes... he's right.

Sovereign
20-10-2007, 07:35
no, but I think maybe if it was on a 4+ or 5+ instead that might be workable.

Or maybe just making it so they can only be hit on 5's and 6's but still be penetrated.

Makes them harder to hit, not harder to hurt.
An Invulnerable save based on speed (5+ for 6", 3+ for 12") would work better, because it uniformly reduces vulnerability based on speed.

Only being hit on 5s and 6s disproportionally penalizes high-BS opponents, while BS2 isn't affected at all. It's why GW is getting rid of Heavy CCWs that are disproportionally good against Sv2+, while useless against Sv4+.

Vaktathi
20-10-2007, 07:42
An Invulnerable save based on speed (5+ for 6", 3+ for 12") would work better, because it uniformly reduces vulnerability based on speed.

Only being hit on 5s and 6s disproportionally penalizes high-BS opponents, while BS2 isn't affected at all. It's why GW is getting rid of Heavy CCWs that are disproportionally good against Sv2+, while useless against Sv4+.

True, and I like that idea. as I said my suggestions were just what I could think of off the top of my head, but I do like the save based on speed.

Tulun
20-10-2007, 07:48
An Invulnerable save based on speed (5+ for 6", 3+ for 12") would work better, because it uniformly reduces vulnerability based on speed.

Only being hit on 5s and 6s disproportionally penalizes high-BS opponents, while BS2 isn't affected at all. It's why GW is getting rid of Heavy CCWs that are disproportionally good against Sv2+, while useless against Sv4+.

A 3+ invul save if you move 7-12"? Or over 12"?

I don't think a 3+ invul save would be much better than holofields (maybe a bit less, but I'd wager a falcon will always be moving close to 12").

Sovereign
20-10-2007, 08:23
A 3+ invul save if you move 7-12"? Or over 12"?

I don't think a 3+ invul save would be much better than holofields (maybe a bit less, but I'd wager a falcon will always be moving close to 12").
We were talking about Skimmers Moving Fast, and I proposed an Invulnerable Save in lieu of always Glancing.

Thinking about it, a bit more, I'd do this:

For regular Skimmers Moving Fast:
- Moved 6", but less than 12" = 5+ save
- Moved 12" = 3+ save
moving fast makes the target harder to hit. The save represents the firer missing the target entirely, due to speed. If the target is hit, it may be Penetrated as normal. That is, moving fast doesn't reduce the effect of being hit by a Lascannon.

Overall, if Glanced or Penetrated:
Skimmer Moved 6" = 1/3 chance to destroy
Skimmer Moved 12" = 1/6 chance to destroy

For *Eldar* Skimmers with Holofield:
- Moved less than 6" = 6+ save
- Moved 6", but less than 12" = 4+ save
- Moved 12" = 2+ save
basically Holofield improves the save by 1, and gives a minimal 6+ even if the Skimmer moved slowly. This effect can be combined with the Energy Field effect that treats S9+ as S8 without being unbalancing.

Overall, if Glanced or Penetrated:
Eldar Moved <6" = 5/12 chance to destroy
Eldar Moved 6" = 1/4 chance to destroy
Eldar Moved 12" = 1/12 chance to destroy

If we look at S9 Lascannon hit vs AV14 Land Raider:
1/6 Glance = 1/6 Destroy
1/6 Penetrate = 1/2 Destroy
Total = 4/36 chance to destroy

If we look at S8(9) Lascannon hit vs AV12 Falcon moving 6-12" (so it can still shoot and gain SMF / holofield benefits):
1/6 Glance = 1/6 Destroy
1/3 Penetrate = 1/2 Destroy
but 1/2 ignored
Total = 3.5/36 chance to destroy
On net, this is somewhat harder to destroy than a Land Raider, but it has half the cargo and less effective guns. If you combine this with Spirit Stones giving a re-roll, the net drops to ~2/36 chance to destroy.

Of course, if the Falcon is going to run 12-14" all game, it will be ~1/36 to destroy. But it won't shoot, either - it's just trying to survive

Spleendokta
20-10-2007, 08:32
This thread delivers. Not an eldar player, but its a good laugh to some of these responses. I dunno about you all, but im enjoying the falcon bomb defenders.

Bathfinder
20-10-2007, 11:34
We were talking about Skimmers Moving Fast, and I proposed an Invulnerable Save in lieu of always Glancing.

Thinking about it, a bit more, I'd do this:

For regular Skimmers Moving Fast:
- Moved 6", but less than 12" = 5+ save
- Moved 12" = 3+ save
moving fast makes the target harder to hit. The save represents the firer missing the target entirely, due to speed. If the target is hit, it may be Penetrated as normal. That is, moving fast doesn't reduce the effect of being hit by a Lascannon.

Overall, if Glanced or Penetrated:
Skimmer Moved 6" = 1/3 chance to destroy
Skimmer Moved 12" = 1/6 chance to destroy


Oh, how I miss the old days in some ways. Back then (2nd ed) they still had to-hit-modifiers. (they were removed to...what? simplify the game? baaad move GW). I am one of thme that thinks hit modifiers added something to the game, that couldn't be replaced by coversaves.
Then there would be room for holofields working as they should.
The falcon would still be harder to kill (harder to hit) but I think it would be unkillable in a way that more people would accept, because it seems logical. (now it is "I hit the thing but my shot just dissappeared - cheese!" instead of being harder to hit, but when you hit, it hurts. Like it should be. (the same thing could be accomplished by an invul-save, but it would still FEEL like more armour for the oppponent)

Captain Micha
20-10-2007, 13:34
however, it's infinitely better than the current rules. I for one am fine with the idea of to hit modifiers and felt that all skimmers should have that rule rather than what they do presently. After all a tank shell the size of a small car -hitting- you is still a tank shell the size of a small car.

also hull down for auto glancing is no where near as good as the falcon field. Stop kidding yourself. (after all the falco is only glance with a reroll ignoring the draw back of 3 on the chart already.. and a potential to ignore 4,5,6)

I think the rule should be as follows 6 inches is a 5+ and the shot is ignored. 12 inches 4+ to ignore. with the holofield making it count as an obscured target. (the tau have a similar thing to the holofield, in idea. that's where I got it from. except the tau one only works 12+ inches away)

this gives skimmers some degree of comfortable durability without it being >>>>> everything else and at the same time nerfs the falco field

silverdragon
20-10-2007, 13:39
I still have yet to see a persuasive pro-Falcon argument that addresses the point cost issue.

3) Again, the only people I see defending it, ever, are Eldar players. It's much the same as people who try to defend the assault cannon spam / lasplas min-maxing. Coincidentally, ALL of them are marine players. Or how the only people who really defend 'Nidzilla are Tyranid players. I'm not calling for the list to be hosed here, either. I just think the Falcon with those upgrades in tandem needs to be pointed appropriately. They, because of the synergy, should cost much more to take together than to take individually (or make them mutually exclusive), and then everything is fixed.



I am a Tyranid player defending the Falcon.

The Falcon costs 200-230 pts, and while hard to kill is exteremely easy to stun. Even without stunning the Falcon does a less than spectacular job at shooting. With the pts from the HF and SS equipment theres little chance the Falcon is going to make its points back.

Let's look a a Land Raider or monolith. Both also over 200 pts. They are immune to more weapons than the Falcon need str 8 weapons to even glance. On a Falcon you only need str 6 to glance, and str 4 on the back. There will be many more str 4-7 weapons in any balanced army than there will be str 8+ weapons.

Back to the Land Raider Monolith - they will most likely earn their points back easily - by either killing whole squads of infantry or taking out a few vehicles and transports. If any marine player wanted to take 3 Land Raiders no one is stopping him. If it weren't for the amount of Las Cannon SM armies everywhere I think a 3 land raider army would be harder to stop than falcons. Prioritize on the targets with str8+ weapons in the first few turns and the surviving land raiders are invulnerable for the rest of the game. This army against a 3 falcon army would for the most part have to take out the falcon with the Dragons in side or protect the land raiders such that when he does rush forward to drop them off you got a squad or 2 than block the hatch or fire into the weak rear armor.

If people think kitted Falcons are too cheap, then Land Raiders and Monoliths are also too cheap.

Captain Micha
20-10-2007, 13:53
+REMOVED BY WS =I= +

Secondly, my tau would love to educate -anyone- taking in three land raiders... and that's not using my railheads... or crisis suits.

Third, monoliths go down reaaal quick to ordinance fire or str 10 weapons fire. I realise that your nid's don't have any.. but that's what makes it great. certain lists monoliths rape.. other's.... I wouldn't field my monolith if I knew what I was up against.

The falco? it's an -always- field... there's something wrong with a unit that you can feel not only confident in taking in -every- game, knowing it will live, but not only that, but not feel as if you've wasted points and -that- is what makes the falcon cheese. you can -always- take one, and -always- find a use for it. against -any- army and do not only well, but probably win it, based off of simply taking 3 of them. Not only that, but you're all but gauranteed to have 600 points (there around) of Vp that you're enemy didn't kill

Not even Nidzilla, or asscannon spam, Jsj, monolith warrior spam, can come close to that

silverdragon
20-10-2007, 17:03
extremely easy to shake you mean. shake. it can't be stunned. that first mistake cost you any credibility that you had.

excuse me for a mistype... no need to get testy


and haha ahaha ahahahahahaha @you. You're a funny funny man. Landraiders being worth something *snicker*oh that's rich. Tell me another!

Space Marines being a victim of their own popularity right there. If there wasn't an abundance of Las Cannons running around 3 Land Raiders would be very hard to stop.


195-230 get it right. second it does make it's point cost back as it delivered the 100 or so point killing squad to their destination who in turn either blows the target to smithereens or chops it into itsy bitsy pieces. And then since it's still alive. next round they hop back in and rinse and repeat. A unit does not have to kill to make it's point cost back.

So now the Eldar Player is spending 295-330 in pts to deliver a squad which wont make its points back next turn if it survives the turn. By charging forward the Falcon now has exposed weak AV 10 back armor... More mobile elements of your army can now block the ramp... High str weapons are not the answer to everything. Fast jump infantry or bikes are better than Las Cannons here. If you don't have mobile elements in your army you are going to get out maneuvered by a mech Eldar player.



Secondly, my tau would love to educate -anyone- taking in three land raiders... and that's not using my railheads... or crisis suits.

And then my nids would annihilate your 9 broadsides, while the Land Raider player would do a good job decimating my nids (I dont play nidzilla) .... Paper Rock Scissors game. Try creating a Balanced tau list and take out 3 Land Raiders. Those 3 Land Raiders would do very well against many other armies.



Third, monoliths go down reaaal quick to ordinance fire or str 10 weapons fire. I realise that your nid's don't have any.. but that's what makes it great. certain lists monoliths rape.. other's.... I wouldn't field my monolith if I knew what I was up against.

str 10 weapons and ordinance fire are rare... so a monolith sometimes will go down quick, but many times they won't at all. My nids - 1/6 chance with a Venom Cannon to take one down if I hit and then penetrate. My MCs can't melee with it effectively and neither can my rending units. Shake/Stun it and move on.



The falco? it's an -always- field... there's something wrong with a unit that you can feel not only confident in taking in -every- game, knowing it will live, but not only that, but not feel as if you've wasted points and -that- is what makes the falcon cheese. you can -always- take one, and -always- find a use for it. against -any- army and do not only well, but probably win it, based off of simply taking 3 of them. Not only that, but you're all but gauranteed to have 600 points (there around) of Vp that you're enemy didn't kill

Rhinos are always equipped with smoke launchers, must be broken. Hammerheads always have disruption pods, must be broken. Ork vehicles are always painted red, must be broken...

Tactical Marines - have a use against every army - must be broken
Hammerheads - can find a use against every army - must be broken
Monoliths - have a use against every army - must be broken
Crisis Suits - have a use against every army - must be broken
Terminators - " ",
etc... There are a lot of units that are good against all armies - versatile units that each race has. Just because they are useful in all games you play does not make them broken.

Unless the Eldar player's other 600 pts of non Falcon units destroyed the rest of your army then you didn't loose that many VP either. So both forces have a large amount of VP left come end of the game.



Not even Nidzilla, or asscannon spam, Jsj, monolith warrior spam, can come close to that

Of course 3 Falcons cannot do as much damage as these other lists for the point cost...

Personally, as a nid player Falcons don't hurt me much because I use different tactics than a gun line or Las Cannon marine army. I use Venom Cannons (which can only stun anyway) to stun them then ignore them, unless they are positioning to drop of cargo. I have gargolyes and winged warriors ready to block ramps. I use my dakka fexxes, gargoyles, and termagaunts to attack the weak armor when they do this - sometimes they die sometimes they dont but the ramps blocked so it just wasted a turn. I close with the rest of his army and kill it. The Falcon shooting is normally not effective (sometimes they get lucky) and usually only 1 Falcon gets to drop off it's cargo where it wanted to when it wanted to.

Skyth
20-10-2007, 17:23
Strength 10 weaponry isn't all that rare especially with nids...I have 6-7 Strength 10 shots in my nid list.

My Eldar army has a str 10 shot, so does my Guard army. And I'm only talking about my standard armies, not ones I could build if I wanted to.

Amnar
20-10-2007, 18:15
I am a Tyranid player defending the Falcon.

The Falcon costs 200-230 pts, and while hard to kill is exteremely easy to stun. Even without stunning the Falcon does a less than spectacular job at shooting. With the pts from the HF and SS equipment theres little chance the Falcon is going to make its points back.

Let's look a a Land Raider or monolith. Both also over 200 pts. They are immune to more weapons than the Falcon need str 8 weapons to even glance. On a Falcon you only need str 6 to glance, and str 4 on the back. There will be many more str 4-7 weapons in any balanced army than there will be str 8+ weapons.

Back to the Land Raider Monolith - they will most likely earn their points back easily - by either killing whole squads of infantry or taking out a few vehicles and transports. If any marine player wanted to take 3 Land Raiders no one is stopping him. If it weren't for the amount of Las Cannon SM armies everywhere I think a 3 land raider army would be harder to stop than falcons. Prioritize on the targets with str8+ weapons in the first few turns and the surviving land raiders are invulnerable for the rest of the game. This army against a 3 falcon army would for the most part have to take out the falcon with the Dragons in side or protect the land raiders such that when he does rush forward to drop them off you got a squad or 2 than block the hatch or fire into the weak rear armor.

If people think kitted Falcons are too cheap, then Land Raiders and Monoliths are also too cheap.

For the millionth time, nobody cares about stopping the falcon from shooting. It's the 100% guaranteed squad delivered in the heart of your army that's the pain in the ass. As a nid player you're not really on the recieving end of that, but think how that affects armies with CC weakness.

Also, don't forget that falcon's are pretty much immune to CC, while Landraiders can easily be ripped apart by meltabombs and monstrous creatures.

elvinltl
20-10-2007, 18:19
O Dear!!! The thread had derailed into another Falcon Bashing Thread. :(

Jaeger48
20-10-2007, 18:27
This thread delivers. Not an eldar player, but its a good laugh to some of these responses. I dunno about you all, but im enjoying the falcon bomb defenders.


maybe you can also pump your baby batter into the mrs. ?

silverdragon
20-10-2007, 18:37
For the millionth time, nobody cares about stopping the falcon from shooting. It's the 100% guaranteed squad delivered in the heart of your army that's the pain in the ass. As a nid player you're not really on the recieving end of that, but think how that affects armies with CC weakness.

Also, don't forget that falcon's are pretty much immune to CC, while Landraiders can easily be ripped apart by meltabombs and monstrous creatures.

It's not 100% guaranteed squad delivered into the heart of your army. If it rushes forward to drop of it's cargo there are 3 things u can do to increase your chances of destroying the falcon or stop its cargo:

A - rear AV 10 shots are now more possible because hes closer to you, and therefore you should have better weapon angles with more str4+ weapons
B - mobile units such as jump infantry, fleet infantry, bikes, fast vehicles, can run forward and block the ramp
C - if he knows your going to block the ramp and positions farther back, in your turn you can back up the unit he is going to assault taking them out of assault range.

Amnar
20-10-2007, 18:48
Blocking the ramp can be countered by using friendly units ie. vipers to keep the ramp clear.

silverdragon
20-10-2007, 19:03
Blocking the ramp can be countered by using friendly units ie. vipers to keep the ramp clear.

true statement. He can block the ramp with his own troops which is an effective tactic.

However, now the cost of getting his transported squad into combat just went from 295-330 pts to 390 assuming a 60 pt vyper (2 suriken cannons). If he uses a jetbike or swooping hawk unit the price will be even higher (400+).

(Not condescendingly) - I'm ok with that normally, if my opponent wants to use 1/3 to 1/4 of his army for one maneuver. Off course I play nids and my troops are more expendable than most.

lunacite
20-10-2007, 19:03
So now how many points are you committing to getting those 6 troops into assault?

Ammedie
20-10-2007, 19:12
theres not thing wrong with falcons. ive had mech eldar since i started play becase it lookd good and yea it dose well but i raely here the term cheesy beardy maby but that comes throuhg exprience not takeing thing that spoint the game.


but realy no unit spoils the game and no combination is to powerfull and no combination is realy that bad. its the people who chose them and they way in which they play with them.

if you take 3 of anything big with no strong strong fluff motivaton then that is likly to be cheese. in the case of eldar harliqunis should be 0-1 but there not so that people have the choise to make haliquin based armys. but if your going to do that your not going to have fire pirsms or more than 1 falcon (in a 1500 point game)

tau mech dont seem to get a verbal nailing for cheese and yet eldar do. have you ever seen tau mech. battle suits are the epitomy of cheese.




speaking of cheese though... dose pivoting on the spot count as movment for disembarcation? pivoting dosnt count as moveing for shooting. so what about this.

how can you block an exit to a vehical. if you cant move witn in 1" of it and baces are only you can stand under a falcon so you can move 2" away from the access point under the tank.

Forbiddenknowledge
20-10-2007, 20:30
I always understood you could turn without penalty, however its possible it is moving.


Speaking of cheese... people will cry cheese at anything. When Tau first came out, there were thread upon thread calling them cheesey. Same with Tyranids. And now, its the Eldar turn. People get their ass handed to them, but its because of cheese, not tactical mistakes they made.

I personally have never had a problem against Falcons, even three of them. And thats with a balanced Hybrid Tau army. They are killable, you can stop them delivering their cargo, but apparently its easier to cry cheese than work out how to beat them.

Imperialis_Dominatus
20-10-2007, 22:12
maybe you can also pump your baby batter into the mrs. ?

You know, I'm sure as to what this means, and I'm pretty sick of flaming and immaturity flooding these forums. There's a reason I like LO... the mods do something about this stuff.

Takitron
20-10-2007, 22:23
Slave nets. total cheese.

Oh wait, thats Dark eldar...

Just an excuse to put up some accidental camera trickery involving Dark eldar Incubi appearing out of nothing to destroy everything...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v435/takitron/40Kpics/20071018-DSC_0323.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v435/takitron/40Kpics/20071018-DSC_0324.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v435/takitron/40Kpics/20071018-DSC_0325.jpg

Protip: make sure your tripod is secure before setting the timer and walking away.

Orbital
20-10-2007, 22:41
maybe you can also pump your baby batter into the mrs. ?

Dude. Time to grow up a bit, ok?

Reinholt
20-10-2007, 22:46
I am a Tyranid player defending the Falcon.

The Falcon costs 200-230 pts, and while hard to kill is exteremely easy to stun. Even without stunning the Falcon does a less than spectacular job at shooting. With the pts from the HF and SS equipment theres little chance the Falcon is going to make its points back.

Let's look a a Land Raider or monolith. Both also over 200 pts. They are immune to more weapons than the Falcon need str 8 weapons to even glance. On a Falcon you only need str 6 to glance, and str 4 on the back. There will be many more str 4-7 weapons in any balanced army than there will be str 8+ weapons.

Back to the Land Raider Monolith - they will most likely earn their points back easily - by either killing whole squads of infantry or taking out a few vehicles and transports. If any marine player wanted to take 3 Land Raiders no one is stopping him. If it weren't for the amount of Las Cannon SM armies everywhere I think a 3 land raider army would be harder to stop than falcons. Prioritize on the targets with str8+ weapons in the first few turns and the surviving land raiders are invulnerable for the rest of the game. This army against a 3 falcon army would for the most part have to take out the falcon with the Dragons in side or protect the land raiders such that when he does rush forward to drop them off you got a squad or 2 than block the hatch or fire into the weak rear armor.

If people think kitted Falcons are too cheap, then Land Raiders and Monoliths are also too cheap.

Have you ever played against a Falcon? Ever?

To get a few things clear:

1) The Falcon is tougher than the Land Raider when using the combined combo of Holofields / Spirit Stones (and possibly vectored engines) along with the SMF move.

2) The Falcon is faster than a Land Raider by a good margin.

3) The Falcon's primary danger is as a transport and VP denial tool. It's not there to be an MBT in the same sense as many others; if that was the key, this thread would be about Fire Prisms, not Falcons! What does the Falcon have that the Fire Prism does not?

Oh, yes. That's right. Transport capacity.

I would like to re-emphasize the previous comments by Amnar that nobody, nobody, nobody, nobody is claiming the Falcon's shooting is imbalanced.


A - rear AV 10 shots are now more possible because hes closer to you, and therefore you should have better weapon angles with more str4+ weapons
B - mobile units such as jump infantry, fleet infantry, bikes, fast vehicles, can run forward and block the ramp
C - if he knows your going to block the ramp and positions farther back, in your turn you can back up the unit he is going to assault taking them out of assault range.


Maybe.

To address A)

First, you can dig up a previous thread about shooting, but depending on how you balance things out, it will take about 20 glancing blows to achieve a 90% kill rate on a Falcon. Assuming rapid-firing S4 weaponry at BS4 (any marine equivalent or necron-ish weapons), which hit 2/3 of the time and glance 1/6 of the time, that would mean I'd get, on average, 1 glancing hit per 9 shots. Let's assuming, for the sake of argument, I'm rapid firing.

Great! Now, to down one Falcon with 90% efficiency solely firing at the rear armor, I need 180 shots, or 90 guys. For marines, this is at the cheap, cheap cost of 1,350 points, not counting upgrades and maneuverability, to counter this tactic versus a lone Falcon with shooting at the rear.

I can counter three for the bargain cost of nearly 4,000 points of marines before any upgrades to make them mobile enough to get to the rear armor.

Clearly a brilliant solution! I'm even an advocate of this very tactic, but you need heavier weapons and more mobility to pull it off well. Certainly, the idea that you can use your stock troops in a standard army to do this is insane (see above) if you are not playing with 10x the points of the Falcon player.

B)

Agreed. Again, this is a problem with three Falcons, as now you can tie up every single fast attack choice (and force your opponent to take 3) just to have a stalemate, however. Versus one Falcon, this tactic is great. Versus three, it breaks down because of the numbers game on the Force Org chart and point costs.

Likewise, a smart player takes other cheap ass stuff (jetbikes) to prevent this by screening the rear.

C)

This is the tactic to use against three Falcons; sometimes the denial maneuvers work very well, but there are several missions where this is a guaranteed auto-lose (take & hold, anyone?). Thus, to say it is generalizable to all tactical situations one runs into in 40k, or even a majority of them, is not true.


Again, in closing, my argument is not that there's an overall unstoppable problem and all Falcons must be smashed with a hammer. It's that for the points, there is nothing that compares to a holofield / spirit stones Falcon. The reference to the Land Raider and Monolith is above, as it's clearly cherry picking an argument in favor of the Falcon by ignoring the two things that make the Falcon so very dangerous (VP denial and transport, with speed) in favor of things it's usually never doing.

I find that comparison laughable. If I could take a Falcon instead of a Land Raider in my marine army, and I was playing to win, I'd be taking three in every single game. I field roughly zero Land Raiders, on average, currently.

What does that tell you?

Edit - Also, please note, I can beat triple-Falcon armies; I also have a small Eldar army (with Falcon). I just believe, along with things like 'Nidzilla and Assault Cannon spam, that it's too good for the points. I would argue that two extremely skilled players, who do not make consistent tactical mistakes, would find that certain army lists are overpowering. That's why you see 'nids, the old iron warriors, triple falcons, etc, scoring the highest in wins at tournaments.

Takitron
20-10-2007, 22:55
Dude. Time to grow up a bit, ok?

agreed. baby batter is so 14 years old. We mature players call them Knuckle Babies.

;)

silverdragon
20-10-2007, 23:10
You know, I'm sure as to what this means, and I'm pretty sick of flaming and immaturity flooding these forums. There's a reason I like LO... the mods do something about this stuff.

What does the LO abbreviation stand for. Thanks

AgeOfEgos
20-10-2007, 23:32
To add to Reinholts response:

You can't simply state "I'll just block the ramp" in response to triple falcon army lists. An Eldar player worth his salt will layer them, where you block the front ramp the Falcon behind unloads Harlies whom move/fleet/assault the bikes/jump infantry blocking the ramp. Or hell, they just used it as bait and you watch while that unit gets blasted to hell the next turn while the Falcon flies away.

Regardless of whom wins, the game quickly revolves around 3 models. Falcon flood on Ebay in one year, quote me.

silverdragon
20-10-2007, 23:50
1) The Falcon is tougher than the Land Raider when using the combined combo of Holofields / Spirit Stones (and possibly vectored engines) along with the SMF move.

Depends on what your shooting at the Land Raider. If your shooting las cannons, rail guns, or bright lances at the falcon then yes, it is tougher. If your shooting assault cannons, missile pods, scatter lasers, plasma guns, or plasma rifles then the land raider is infinitely times more tough than the Falcon



2) The Falcon is faster than a Land Raider by a good margin.


true - land raider out shoots a falcon by a good margin. I know your not debating how less than spectacular the falcon's shooting is, BUT when talking about a unit you have to take everything in to consideration, weaknesses and strengths.



3) The Falcon's primary danger is as a transport and VP denial tool. It's not there to be an MBT in the same sense as many others; if that was the key, this thread would be about Fire Prisms, not Falcons! What does the Falcon have that the Fire Prism does not?

Oh, yes. That's right. Transport capacity.


And I have talked about this, maybe in another thread

The falcon is the only reliable way an eldar player can get his low toughness, low numbered cc squads into combat. Eldar don't have open-topped transports to assault from or high toughness, good armor save, troops that can survive a turn of shooting. The Falcon addresses this but at the cost of even smaller squad sizes.



I would like to re-emphasize the previous comments by Amnar that nobody, nobody, nobody, nobody is claiming the Falcon's shooting is imbalanced.


All things need to be considered, strengths and weaknesses.



To address A)

First, you can dig up a previous thread about shooting, but depending on how you balance things out, it will take about 20 glancing blows to achieve a 90% kill rate on a Falcon. Assuming rapid-firing S4 weaponry at BS4 (any marine equivalent or necron-ish weapons), which hit 2/3 of the time and glance 1/6 of the time, that would mean I'd get, on average, 1 glancing hit per 9 shots. Let's assuming, for the sake of argument, I'm rapid firing.

Great! Now, to down one Falcon with 90% efficiency solely firing at the rear armor, I need 180 shots, or 90 guys. For marines, this is at the cheap, cheap cost of 1,350 points, not counting upgrades and maneuverability, to counter this tactic versus a lone Falcon with shooting at the rear.

I can counter three for the bargain cost of nearly 4,000 points of marines before any upgrades to make them mobile enough to get to the rear armor.

Clearly a brilliant solution! I'm even an advocate of this very tactic, but you need heavier weapons and more mobility to pull it off well. Certainly, the idea that you can use your stock troops in a standard army to do this is insane (see above) if you are not playing with 10x the points of the Falcon player.


I did not say that str 4 shots are ideal - but they can do the job when normally they wouldn't be able to. Ideally medium str weapons are ideal for hitting the back armor, but str 4 shots can possibly do it.



B)

Agreed. Again, this is a problem with three Falcons, as now you can tie up every single fast attack choice (and force your opponent to take 3) just to have a stalemate, however. Versus one Falcon, this tactic is great. Versus three, it breaks down because of the numbers game on the Force Org chart and point costs.

Likewise, a smart player takes other cheap ass stuff (jetbikes) to prevent this by screening the rear.


Careful positioning of non-FA slot units can also accomplish this. However, it is unlikely that all 3 Falcons could be stopped from dropping off their cargo, especially if they all rush foward on the same turn. But if the Eldar player wants to tie up 1000 pts in doing this of his, an opponent shouldn't reliably be able to stop all 3 falcons from dropping off their cargo.

a small unit of jetbikes still costs more than a vyper, ie 66 pts. So the eldar player is still throwing the 295-330 pts falcon with cargo and a unit of jetbikes, 66 pts, at one of your squads.



C)

This is the tactic to use against three Falcons; sometimes the denial maneuvers work very well, but there are several missions where this is a guaranteed auto-lose (take & hold, anyone?). Thus, to say it is generalizable to all tactical situations one runs into in 40k, or even a majority of them, is not true.


true, there are situations where this is not ideal, but other situations where it does work. depends on situation and how well the game is going for you.



Again, in closing, my argument is not that there's an overall unstoppable problem and all Falcons must be smashed with a hammer. It's that for the points, there is nothing that compares to a holofield / spirit stones Falcon. The reference to the Land Raider and Monolith is above, as it's clearly cherry picking an argument in favor of the Falcon by ignoring the two things that make the Falcon so very dangerous (VP denial and transport, with speed) in favor of things it's usually never doing.

I find that comparison laughable. If I could take a Falcon instead of a Land Raider in my marine army, and I was playing to win, I'd be taking three in every single game. I field roughly zero Land Raiders, on average, currently.


Find other transport units to compare to the falcon - rhinos, raiders, chimeras, devilfish i.e... I talk about land raiders and monoliths because of they cost around the same and have high surviability. Both trade speed and a durability against high str weapons for better BS and more weaponry.

do you not take land raiders because of how common las cannon armies are and Tau with railguns? As a nid player, unless my flyrant is not taken out I have an extremely hard time killing AV 14. Most the time im forced to try and stun and ignore.

Grand Master Raziel
21-10-2007, 02:21
Well, it's been a while since I've visited the old Warseer. In this crazy, mixed-up world we live in, it's nice to see that some things remain the same. :p

Anyhow, to offer a thought that has only been touched on briefly by Vaktathi, I think part of the problem with the (perceived) brokenness of Holo-Stones-Falcons is the fact that tournaments tend to be played with 1500 point lists. Personally, I think that the game balances out better at 2000 points. That points-level of game wouldn't let the Skimmer-spam player have any more Space Clown-toting Holo-Falcons, but would give opponents more stuff to deal with them, and a better chance of sucking up an assault from the Space Clowns (or whatever) and still be able to come back swinging when their turn rolls around.

I'd also like to point out that the cost of a Falcon with the typical loadout is not always a liability. There are missions in which you get bonus VPs equal to the cost of units that you get into certain places (Take and Hold and Recon, specifically). In those missions, even if an expensive unit kills absolutely nothing all game, it can still quite literally "make its points back" (as the saying goes) simply by being in the right place at the end of the game.

As for soft scores, IMO while it might be appropriate to tank a cheesetastic army on army comp scores, it's not appropriate to tank the player on painting or sportsmanship just because you don't like his army comp. What I would rate sportsmanship on would be things like; is my opponent polite and considerate or does he talk trash all game, or does my opponent apply the rules consistently between the two of us or does he interpret rules one way when doing so would be in his favor and another way when doing so would be in my favor? Things like that make up the sportsmanship score. As for painting, that pretty much speaks for itself.

Now, to respond to some specific points made during the thread.




Calling "Cheese" is just people's way of dealing with things they don't like or don't understand how to approach.

I think that's true up to a point. New players who don't understand how things work often call "cheese" over anything that they don't understand, or works differently than their army does. However, at a certain point, when you get experienced players who understand how all the armies work and are not prone to hysterics who are still referring to something as "cheese", then you have to consider that they may have some basis for rendering such a judgement. Now, I don't know them personally, but if Voodoo Boyz and Captain Micha have been playing as long as they have been posting, then they're not green newbies. Personally, I think that they usually make pretty good points.






Thats the eldar strategy - look at them in gothic. You have to fill space with explosions (weapon Batteries) because precision weapons can't target them.


What you're leaving out about the Eldar in BFG is that if anything does hit their ships, they crumple like wet paper bags. They have low armor ratings, generally have less hull points than equivalent ships from other navies, no shields, and are prone to suffering critical hits more often than ships from other navies. So, Eldar ships in BFG match the fluff for the Eldar very well. If Falcons with all the trimmings had rules with a similar design philosphy, they'd be very hard to hit, but very easy to destroy once hit. However, due to the synergies with SMF, Holofields, Spirit Stones, and a 12/12/10 hull (which is respectable - comparable to a Predator's armor), Falcons are the most difficult vehicles in the game to destroy.



So, don't allow it Vectored Engines and make Space Clowns 0-1 and you're sorted. Of course people would then find something else to complain about I'm sure. No-one complained when you could bomb 2 squads of Banshees and a unit of Dragons in 3rd ed.

Actually, Holo-Falcons annoyed me in 3rd ed, too. However, there were so many things broken about the Eldar in 3rd ed, Holo-Falcons got overlooked.


Some of these replies are starting to get rather humorous. I think I am going to start a thread about how 3+ power armor is cheese. All Marines need to be nerfed.

The future of Marines is the DA/BA template, and that constitutes a respectable nerf in most people's opinions.


At 200 pts, the Falcon isn't likely to earn its VPs back directly, so it needs to be good at something else. Maybe if it were 100 pts, it could be "easy" to kill. But then it would be playing a very different role.

I don't think that's necessarily true. A 200pt Falcon can make its points back by popping, say, a Predator and a Rhino, which it ought to be able to do in a 6-turn game without too much difficulty. However, even if it doesn't make all its points back, it can still make some of its points back, and still be worth putting on the table because it sets other units up to exceed their net worth in the points-spent to points-killed calculus.



And finally, it's irritating that MEQs can't get around the idea that you can defeat something without destroying it. That you can beat armies without destroying all of their models.


Well, you're talking about mission objectives here, and yes, that can help. However, in addition to being respectably dangerous units in their own right and being able to deliver some of the most dangerous assault troops in the game, Holo-Falcons are also excellent objective-grabbers due to their resilience and speed. So, while an opponent might be able to out-objective grab a Falcon-spam player, that opponent either has to be considerably slicker than the Falcon-spam player, or he has to be considerably luckier.


A - rear AV 10 shots are now more possible because hes closer to you, and therefore you should have better weapon angles with more str4+ weapons
B - mobile units such as jump infantry, fleet infantry, bikes, fast vehicles, can run forward and block the ramp
C - if he knows your going to block the ramp and positions farther back, in your turn you can back up the unit he is going to assault taking them out of assault range.

Getting around to that back ramp is not as easy as you're making it out to be here. The Falcon is a not-inconsiderably large model. Getting units around even a single one of them on an empty table eats up a lot of their movement. Factor in supporting units and terrain, and it'll generally be pretty easy for Eldar players to protect themselves against that tactic.



The falcon is the only reliable way an eldar player can get his low toughness, low numbered cc squads into combat. Eldar don't have open-topped transports to assault from or high toughness, good armor save, troops that can survive a turn of shooting.

Striking Scorpions. They don't have the T4, but they've got the 3+ save, and are absolutely fabulous assault troops, even if they don't have Rending. They also have (or can have, by dint of Exarch powers) Infiltrate and Move Through Cover, which is way better than a kick in the ass.

Orbital
21-10-2007, 02:42
Well, it's been a while since I've visited the old Warseer. In this crazy, mixed-up world we live in, it's nice to see that some things remain the same. :p

Aye aye to that, mate. :)

silverdragon
21-10-2007, 05:47
Striking Scorpions. They don't have the T4, but they've got the 3+ save, and are absolutely fabulous assault troops, even if they don't have Rending. They also have (or can have, by dint of Exarch powers) Infiltrate and Move Through Cover, which is way better than a kick in the ass.

True that scorpions have a 3+ save and can take more fire than most eldar troops. They are also the only eldar CC unit that cannot fleet so they are slower than all other eldar CC and still have T3. The Exarch powers are nice, but CC troops that don't move faster than normal troops are not reliable way of getting into CC with what you need them to. Infiltrate may be worth than I'm giving it credit for though.

I had my second tyrant (1st is a flyrant) equipped with a bone sword and talons, and gave him warp blast for ranged. He rarely made it into combat when I wanted. Since then I re-equiped one of my old 3rd ed tyrants to have a barb and a venom cannon and he preforms much better now. Sorry if the nid stuff is Kinda off topic, but its the majority of my experience with using normal 6" move assault troops. I also have a few elite CC Carnifexs... :[ Hopefully they will be more useful when I can deep strike them with mycetic spore assault in apocalypse games.

InquisitorMatticus
21-10-2007, 07:48
Ok, to the OP, I played eldar before the new dex came out. I dont quite see the problem everyone is having with the falcons. They actually got pretty nerfed from the last edition.

Before they could have the same things they have now plus a hvy 3 starcannon and crystal targeting matrix which you could basicly do the shoot then glide behind cover. Although the harliquins are new, they used to have fire dragons, which are still pretty nasty. You can still down falcons, though sadly it does take a few turns of shooting, which the land raider should be more surviveable.

Grand Master Raziel
21-10-2007, 14:32
True that scorpions have a 3+ save and can take more fire than most eldar troops. They are also the only eldar CC unit that cannot fleet so they are slower than all other eldar CC and still have T3. The Exarch powers are nice, but CC troops that don't move faster than normal troops are not reliable way of getting into CC with what you need them to. Infiltrate may be worth than I'm giving it credit for though.

Well, my experience using Space Marine Scouts is that Infiltrating+Moving Through Cover assault troops can usually pull off assaults by the second turn, still having good numbers in the squad. One of the upsides to keeping them in terrain is that they'll get cover saves when they don't get their armor saves, so if some joker is levelling anti-SM weapons at them (either Scouts or Scorps), you'll still get a save for them. That enhances their overall survivability. Also, since most weapons that bust 3+ saves are S6 or better anyway, the difference between T3 and T4 is negligible when it comes to soaking the kind of fire players are going to put on Scorps if they have it available. Whatever is being shot at them, it would wound on a 2+ either way.



Before they could have the same things they have now plus a hvy 3 starcannon and crystal targeting matrix which you could basicly do the shoot then glide behind cover. Although the harliquins are new, they used to have fire dragons, which are still pretty nasty. You can still down falcons, though sadly it does take a few turns of shooting, which the land raider should be more surviveable.

Never saw anyone put the CTM on a Falcon. They tended to wind up on Wave Serpents and Vypers.

Orbital
21-10-2007, 15:52
I play Tau though, so that automatically makes me a beardy player *rolls eyes*

The thing I've found about this game is, no matter which army you play or how you play it, you will always be able to find enough people who say you're cheesy to populate a Warseer thread or two, thus creating the illusion that they're speaking for the community at large.

Kroxigore
21-10-2007, 23:19
Hey Folks, sorry for the stupid question, but could someone explain to me, what the holo/stone/SMF combo does in the 'new' dex? I only know the old rules. I guess, the holofield does the same as before, but what do the stones do now? And what does SMF mean and what does it do?
I should play more often!

Gensuke626
21-10-2007, 23:20
Hey Folks, sorry for the stupid question, but could someone explain to me, what the holo/stone/SMF combo does in the 'new' dex? I only know the old rules. I guess, the holofield does the same as before, but what do the stones do now? And what does SMF mean and what does it do?
I should play more often!

Holofield is the same as 3e
Stones are now the same as Extra Armor from Imperial dexes
SMF is the Skimmers Moving Fast rule.

Kroxigore
21-10-2007, 23:29
Okay, thanks, dude! That means, that it is still killable with 9 glancing hit average, if I get it right (a chance of 1/3 to kill it, if it moved 12'', with two rolls, that's a chance of 1/9 per glancing hit). Somebody correct me, if I'm wrong! Honestly, that's not as bad as I thought. Though... it would mean 18 rocket launchers firing at it without a guaranty of destroying it. Okay, it's pretty mean!

Gensuke626
21-10-2007, 23:41
yeah...about a 1/9 chance to pop it...bust most people also take vectored engines which allow a skimmer to "Safely Land" if they are immobilized (ie. they are just immobilized instead of being destroyed) So most people quote a 1/36 to outright destroy a skimmer. forgetting that total destruction isn't the only way to neutralize it since Eldar lack Grot Riggers/Techmarines/Enginseers.

also, Krox, there is no "Guarantee" of destruction in 40k...remember...you can throw a bucket of dice, but if they all come up 1s.

Tulun
22-10-2007, 01:05
Striking Scorpions. They don't have the T4, but they've got the 3+ save, and are absolutely fabulous assault troops, even if they don't have Rending. They also have (or can have, by dint of Exarch powers) Infiltrate and Move Through Cover, which is way better than a kick in the ass.

While I like Striking Scorpions, the lack of fleet really hurts, though the 3+ save does partially help. T3 also means that small arms can actually do a reasonable number on them. I often resort to forcing a bunch of 3+ saves to kill enemy power armour.

Infiltrate isn't a guarantee, and enemy infiltrators could mess up your placement. I would gladly exchange infiltrate for FoF :(

They are good if you can make it there, but a 6/6 assault unit really does suck for an assault unit. It's nice to be able to push assaults with a lucky fleet roll, and you can use this ability all the time to great effectiveness. It's why Genestealers are way more pants than from 3rd edition :)

Gensuke626
22-10-2007, 01:09
I always assumed that with proper placement, 10 scorpions in a serpent could be king of the battlefield...just position yourself properly and drop them before your next move....

JCOLL
22-10-2007, 01:56
I'm new to these forums and have a few questions...

I'm putting together a group of three war warlkers but can't figure out how to arm them so that they can pretty much have success in any skirmish they get into. Any ideas? On that note, the same for my falcons and serpents and vypers (which I have two). I know what each weapon does per say, but don't know how to best arm them and where. Any ideas? I'm just looking for a good all around balance to be able to handle most things, not just an all encompassing ability to annihalate all together.

Gensuke626
22-10-2007, 02:31
well rounded warwalkers? I'd go 2 missile launchers...you throw kraks at tanks and plasmas at troops...

But I don't see Eldar as being the force to take well rounded anything. I always feel that Eldar work best when you buy a unit and say "This is for Tankhunting" and you gear it for tank hunting or you say "This is to kill hordes" and you use it to kill hordes...in that sense double scatter lasers have always been a favorite configuration orf mine...

Orbital
22-10-2007, 03:56
For interest's sake (and I hope it's a LITTLE interesting), I always take 3 War Walkers. Never less. And I always arm them with nothing but Scatter Lasers. With War Walkers, you have access to serious shooting overkill (which is good) for a low cost, so I try to make one enemy unit take a Scatter Laser bath every turn. You'll be shocked how effective it can be against Marines.

DireAvenger126
22-10-2007, 08:13
JCOOL
missiles on bs 3 walkers? Dude..
Easily the most effective way is twin scatter lasers (if guided they are a unit of mass destruction), twin shruikens are good too but are extremely hard to use. eldar units are made for one role, if u want anti tank walkers, there are units that can do a better job, but if you have to then i'd take 2 walkers with lances but they're not ideal.
Falcons? Mine looks like this: Scatter Laser, Shruiken Cannon, Holo-Field, Spirit Stones 185 or i replace the Scatter Laser with a Star Cannon. Generally tries to get side armour of tanks, or get termies if i take the starcannon. if the vehicles are all dead then its still effective vs infantry.
Serpents, squads that would attract a lot of fire I give twin shurikens and spirit stones (always take them apart from on vypers to take advantage of SMF) or scatter laser and shruiken cannon.
squads like dire avengers or stormies i give a lance or EML.
Vypers i give them twin shruikens, or a starcannon. dont bother with upgrades as the vyper is suppose to annoy and distract so they draw away fire from your precious serpents.