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vipernyc
18-10-2007, 17:46
So it says in the book that chaos can field traitor versions of all the imperial datasheets. I can see that working for linebreaker squads, baneblades,even titans, but does that also include things like masters of the chapter, or assassin teams?

RAW would seem to indicate that yes, you can, but I don't know, it seems a little out of whack.

Opinions?

Durath
18-10-2007, 17:59
As long as your opponent doesn't have any beef with it, I don't see why not.

Fluff-wise, a SM Chapter might have just recently turned traitor and still has the command structure assets in place to use all these rules.

In fact, I think it would be cool if a Vanilla Space Marine army played a thematic battle detailing their fall and started using Generic Daemons.

ChaosMaster
18-10-2007, 18:01
I used Masters of the Chapter with my Chaos Marine legion in a 6,000 point per side Apocalypse game just last weekend. Take 5 captains/lords and a Terminator or Chosen squad and it works out just fine, that is, till an Orbital Bombardment lands on them! It was fun using them and fun seeing most of them get blown up too. They sure attracted a lot of firepower! LOL.

Fortunately, my Baneblade and Brass Scorpions (http://warseer.com/forums/1865233-post12.html) fared a bit better, doing tons of damage. Apocalypse is too much fun!

Mr_Rose
18-10-2007, 18:07
It actually says "...thanks to the freedom of Apocalypse battles..." which basically means it's reminding you that there is no reason why you couldn't ally Chaos and Imperial forces, except that it would probably look a lot better if you modelled them as chaos versions.

It doesn't seem to be a special rule saying that chaos alone can have imperial datasheets, more a reminder that they have a much better excuse than anyone else.

Ozendorph
18-10-2007, 18:16
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law. :)

Basically, talk with your friends and see what everybody is cool with. Coming up with parallels for things like MotC and Assassins in a Chaos army should be pretty easy. And modeling them could be awesome.

edit: Daemonic "counts-as" Eversors? Niiiice.

Lord Malorne
18-10-2007, 18:17
Can Black Templars use any o' the marine data sheets. i.e. masters of the chapter, linebreaker squads and battle company! and still benefit from templar rules!

Ozendorph
18-10-2007, 18:19
Can Black Templars use any o' the marine data sheets. i.e. masters of the chapter, linebreaker squads and battle company! and still benefit from templar rules!

Absolutely. I cannot see anyone disputing that.

Lord Malorne
18-10-2007, 18:23
WHAT! i can use a battle company and maintain templar rules though templars don't have devastators or battle company's!.......................weird!

ChaosMaster
18-10-2007, 18:27
Normal unit structure applies and normal unit rules apply in Apocalypse. For example, even if I run a unit of Sentinels with my Chaos army, the special rules and upgrades that benefit the Chaos models from their Codex cannot be applied to the Sentinels and the Imperial Guard rules and upgrades for the Sentinels from the IG Codex will not apply to the Chaos Marine units.

TheOverlord
18-10-2007, 18:27
I really like the masters of the chapter, and had an idea on how to make it work for chaos. Instead of just a renegade chapter with the same thing, make them Lords of your legion that represent the stratagems they give you. ie. Chaos Fleet Master for Orbital (or was that precision?) Strike, maybe an Alpha Legion lord as a Master of the Recruits for Flank March, a Night Lord Lord (urrgh) for Ambush. I think it gives it quite an amount of flavor to it.

ChaosMaster
18-10-2007, 18:30
I really like the masters of the chapter, and had an idea on how to make it work for chaos. Instead of just a renegade chapter with the same thing, make them Lords of your legion that represent the stratagems they give you. ie. Chaos Fleet Master for Orbital (or was that precision?) Strike, maybe an Alpha Legion lord as a Master of the Recruits for Flank March, a Night Lord Lord (urrgh) for Ambush. I think it gives it quite an amount of flavor to it.
That is pretty close to what I did when I ran the Masters of the Chapter formation in my Chaos Marine army last weekend. Some of my Lords were Chaos-god specific and I gave them fun titles appropriate to their look, with a parenthetical note as to their Imperial equivalent so I'd know which Asset they provided.

Tulun
18-10-2007, 18:30
I would say the assassins would likely be a no; they are completely devoted to their cause of killing the enemies of the emperor.

I would say Chaos wouldn't be able to take that datasheet :P

Lord Malorne
18-10-2007, 18:31
YAY! roll out the Templar crusade. now i can use devastators in my force...something of a forbidden fruit.

Ozendorph
18-10-2007, 18:31
WHAT! i can use a battle company and maintain templar rules though templars don't have devastators or battle company's!.......................weird!

That is a bit of a pickle. Maybe you should substitute further tac squads or Sword Brethren for the Devs? Would that be more Templar-ish? I'm afraid I just don't know their codex very well as I've never played them (or even against them).

ChaosMaster
18-10-2007, 18:32
Say what you like, the Apocalypse book says different and Chaos can run ANY Imperial datasheet. Besides, if you've ever seen a fun B-grade martial arts movie, you'd know that warriors and assassins at times turn to evil against the training of their masters or temple. There's also a little movie with elements in it heavily based on those Asian films called "Star Wars" with a similar plot line. :D

Ozendorph
18-10-2007, 18:33
I would say the assassins would likely be a no; they are completely devoted to their cause of killing the enemies of the emperor.

I would say Chaos wouldn't be able to take that datasheet :P

That's fine, but with a little imagination creating a "counts as" unit would be a piece of cake. Some gaming groups are more liberal than others.

Cry of the Wind
18-10-2007, 18:42
I would say the assassins would likely be a no; they are completely devoted to their cause of killing the enemies of the emperor.

I would say Chaos wouldn't be able to take that datasheet :P

Remember counts as! Just because the rules are using polymorphine doesn’t mean that chaos aren't using a daemonhost to get a similar effect (after all planetary governors have been possessed by daemons before and were able to do all kinds of damage in behind the scenes ways before Grey Knights show up to set them strait). Same thing goes for any other assassin, daemons or other chaotic monsters make great excuses to use those rules and make a really cool model.

Tulun
18-10-2007, 18:45
That's fine, but with a little imagination creating a "counts as" unit would be a piece of cake. Some gaming groups are more liberal than others.

That's true. If your opponents were cool with it (I'd likely check with them first), go for it.

Even though apoc is about freedom, I know it would kind of bug me if a Chaos player just took assassins all of a sudden :P

ChaosMaster
18-10-2007, 18:48
Even though apoc is about freedom, I know it would kind of bug me if a Chaos player just took assassins all of a sudden :P
Except that the Apocalypse book clearly states that Chaos can take ANY Imperial formation, so players should get used to seeing them do so, no pre-game discussion required. Anyone needing "fluffy" justification need only look at all the other units, officers, governors, etc. that have turned to Chaos in 40K history, then there are the types of movies on which it's based, like martial arts films, Star Wars, etc. where devoted trained warriors and assassins turn traitor against their teachers.

Satone
18-10-2007, 18:55
Space Marines master of the chapter equals abaddons chosen retinue from the old book, devram korda, zaraphiston, and the other 2 that dont have names, led by abs himself and a terminator retinue oh yes

The_Warsmith
18-10-2007, 19:01
some assassin temples turned to chaos during the heresy so nothing really to stop you just having normal assassins (but modeling count as assassins would be much more fun :D)

ChaosMaster
18-10-2007, 19:03
some assassin temples turned to chaos during the heresy so nothing really to stop you just having normal assassins (but modeling count as assassins would be much more fun :D)
Absolutely! Converting for Chaos is what's so much fun about building a Chaos army. Four of the five models I used as my Chaos Masters of the Chapter last weekend were conversions rather than stock models, and the Chaos Terminator squad I used with them was heavily converted as well in spite of using actual Chaos Terminator models to start with.

Egaeus
18-10-2007, 19:10
WHAT! i can use a battle company and maintain templar rules though templars don't have devastators or battle company's!.......................weird!


YAY! roll out the Templar crusade. now i can use devastators in my force...something of a forbidden fruit.


That is a bit of a pickle. Maybe you should substitute further tac squads or Sword Brethren for the Devs? Would that be more Templar-ish? I'm afraid I just don't know their codex very well as I've never played them (or even against them).

On this issue I concur with Ozendorph...it's very likely that one could (and GW may...I don't really keep up to date with this sorth of thing) come up with a Datasheet for a "Black Templar Crusade" reflecting it's more unique organization. Note that this might give them some other nifty rules other than those for a Battle Company (something like "all Righteous Zeal moves automatically count as a 6"). <evil grin if my Smilies were working>.



no pre-game discussion required.

This comment just rubbed me the wrong way as it seems to me that pre-game discussion should very much be a part of playing an Apocalypse game. Now I could see a situation where the rules were used to organize a mega-battle where there would be potentially less direct communication between the participants, but there's a certain point at which an "anything goes" attitude may be taken past the point where it will be enjoyable for all players involved.

Although I do think the Daemon[host]-as-Assassin idea is pretty cool.

Darnok
18-10-2007, 19:15
Except that the Apocalypse book clearly states that Chaos can take ANY Imperial formation, so players should get used to seeing them do so, no pre-game discussion required.

You might still ignore me, so possibly someone else can answer my question: where is this "clearly states that" to be found in the Apoc book? A page number would help.

I know that you are allowed to mix different armies, so that could be it, but then those rules also "clearly state" that any Chaos army can take Tyranid datasheets etc.

And by the way, "no pre-game discussion required" is never the right way to go in Apoc games. You should always discuss in advance of a game. You might pop up with players who refuse to play against a Chaos version of the Masters of the Chapter, and their opinion is as important as yours.

ChaosMaster
18-10-2007, 19:17
This comment just rubbed me the wrong way as it seems to me that pre-game discussion should very much be a part of playing an Apocalypse game.
Another unfortunate literal interpretation. Of course arranging an Apocalypse game requires discussion ahead of time, but it does not require a discussion of every formation one is going to use, especially those specifically allowed by the rulebook. I stand by my comments and some others above about the assassins formation, it's perfectly legal for Chaos to use it and players "married" to the fluff in a way that it bothers them will just have to get over it or stick to non-Apocalypse games.

That said, I just played a 6,000 point per side game last weekend with a friend. We most certainly did discuss a lot ahead of time, like what kinds and how many assets we'd like to see in the game, how many points, placing objectives, where to play, how long to play, and even a few formations and models just to bounce ideas off of each other. It was incredibly fun from discussion to post game reflections. Apocalypse is the best thing to EVER happen to 40K, at least for those who embrace it's massively fun intent.

Ozendorph
18-10-2007, 19:30
To me, the "Chaos can use any Imperial datasheets" comment in the book seemed somewhat flippant, not a carved-in-stone commandment. It's stated (and restated) throughout the book that any forces can be used together in Apoc, so whether Chaos can use Imperial Datasheets is sort of a moot argument. They can. Heck, any army can. The question is, are you and your friends cool with it?

"No pre-game discussion required" translates to "I want to have that argument in the middle of the game, rather than beforehand" in my mind. Only you know your buddies, so only you know how they're going to take these sort of inclusions. Personally I'm not looking to pop any crazy surprises on my friends mid-game. :)

Satone
18-10-2007, 19:30
page 117 under the heading traitor formations explains clearly as to how and why chaos can use any imperial stuff

ChaosMaster
18-10-2007, 19:39
page 117 under the heading traitor formations explains clearly as to how and why chaos can use any imperial stuff
Thanks! Yes it does and it clearly states that Chaos can use any Imperial Formations. No wonder some people have so much trouble playing 40K at all, Apocalypse or not. Even when GW states something clearly, flatly, and without ambiguity there will be players who want to dispute it.

Please note that I am not a "competitive" player, I don't play in tournaments, and I generally only play with friends. I'm just mystified as to why some people are having so much trouble understanding this one simple, clearly stated concept in the Apocalypse book. To me it would not be a "crazy surprise" to see an unconventional Imperial formation in a Chaos army whether it's my own or someone else's because I read the rulebook, which says it's allowed and therefore to be expected. Why, oh why, therefore, is this so difficult to understand or "crazy" and "surprising" if someone does it? This is a rhetorical question, please don't bother to post answers. *sigh*

Darnok
18-10-2007, 19:43
page 117 under the heading traitor formations explains clearly as to how and why chaos can use any imperial stuff

Thanks. That's just one of the things that constantly stays below the radar. :rolleyes:

The pestilent 1
18-10-2007, 19:57
Space Marines master of the chapter equals abaddons chosen retinue from the old book, devram korda, zaraphiston, and the other 2 that dont have names, led by abs himself and a terminator retinue oh yes

Zaraphiston wasn't a chosen, Ygmethor was.

Zaphy got ousted after ballsing something up.

Ozendorph
18-10-2007, 21:06
I read the rulebook, which says it's allowed and therefore to be expected. Why, oh why, therefore, is this so difficult to understand or "crazy" and "surprising" if someone does it? This is a rhetorical question, please don't bother to post answers. *sigh*

Condescend much? Jesus.

Look, it totally depends on your situation and who you play with. I think I made that part pretty clear. For me, I would feel compelled to show my opponents and teammates my Chaos Assassins prior to the game. It would be the polite thing to do, and it keeps people from getting uppity in the heat of battle. Now, if your group is different, and you've got no fear of a harsh reaction, then go nuts.

Different people, different etiquette. And seriously, "please don't bother to post answers *sigh*"?....that's just obnoxious.