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View Full Version : Weakling Bloodletters and Swordmasters (not weak!)



Fulgrim's-Chosen
18-10-2007, 21:05
Hello all. This is a two-part discussion / question.

Part one involves the humble Bloodletter, daemonic foot-soldier of the mighty God of War, Khorne.

Basically...on another forum, a debate is ongoing about whether they should become Toughness-4 in the new addition of the Warhammer Chaos Codex / Daemon Codex / however GW is ultimately going to format and release it.


I just find it odd that the designers felt it justified to have the mighty and hulking Bloodletters, clearly the most bestial and "buff" of the Daemon infantry in the game (looking at their model and background info)..... be just as "Tough" as a basic human or Elf (T-3).

How does that make sense ?


How does it make sense that a Mortal Beastman gets T-4 (most of them do), but a Daemonic "Beastman" gets only T-3 . . . ?

Seems odd, yes ?

----------------------------

Second thing... a discussion on the much-talked of Swordmasters was ongoing...and it made me think...why are the new SM's, with all their glitz and glamour....rumored to be costing less than the (overall) inferior Bloodletters ? And, basically, are Bloodletters points' cost way too high for what you get from them, in most games / Army Lists ?

The Swordmasters are rumored to be 15-pts per model now.

The Bloodletters, currently, run you 16-pts per model. Remember also that this is considering the basic Hordes of Chaos Bloodletter, with Ldrship-8 and a non-true Ward Save (Daemonic Aura only)...yet they STILL are rated at 16-pts per model. Seems odd, eh?

Well it's even worse when you look down the line at the Swordmasters VS Bloodletters.


Weapon Skill - Swordmasters have 6...better than the BL's

Ballistic Skill - really a non-factor but SM's are again better stat-wise than BL's.

STR- 3 (5) - here's a key thing...yes they are "only" STR-3 Elves...in THEORY...but thanks to their Greatswords, they will always hit with STR-5...so it's the same as the basic Bloodletter trooper. TIE

Toughness - Both (bizarrely) have Toughness 3. This is one of the more ridiculous things in the Hordes book. Why do Bloodletters have T-3, the same as a Daemonette or basic human...when they are huge and hulking beastmen-type entities ? TIE

Wounds - TIE (both have 1 wound)

Init- Swordmasters win this easily over BL's


Attacks - SM's are supposedly going up to 2-attacks each. Bloodletters have only ONE (1) attack...and only get the other one because they have Frenzy....so really the SM's are better in this area too, since they can NEVER lose their extra attack, even if they lose a close combat....AND....they don't have to go chasing after things, etc. as Frenzied units sometimes do (compulsory movement).

So again SM's win.


LDRSHP- SM's have a rmrd Ldrshp 9 (IIRC)..higher than Basic Bloodletters in Hordes of Chaos. Even if only an 8...it's a tie with Bloodletters.


Saves: SM's get a 5+ Armor....Bloodletters, normally, get a 5+ Ward that can be broken by anything Magical or Magic Spells. We could call this one a draw, for the most part. If you consider the Daemonic Legion list, the Bloodletters would win this one easily since they would have a TRUE 5+ Ward Save...but since the Bloodletter Points Cost was created based on how they appear in Hordes of Chaos, we almost have to use that "Version" of the Bloodletter in our comparisons.

-----------------

So...special Rules now.


Bloodletters get the already-mentioned Frenzy...and MR (1). That's it.


Swordmasters get....primarily...the Only-Thing-They'll-Ever-Need - ;) - as relates to Close Combat...and that's the "Speed of Asuryan", which grants them all "Always Strikes First". So regardless of their normally heavy Greatswords, they will now go before any other unit (unless it also has ASF and a higher initiative - not too many things do)....and will hit with 2-attacks, hitting on 3+, and with STR-5 force.


Ahem.



Now let's look again at the pts cost:

SMasters of Hoeth- 15

Bloodletters- 16


Err.....does that make sense to anyone ?

Huoshini
18-10-2007, 21:32
bloodltters= 5+ ward AND MR(1)
SM= 5+ armour

nuff said

Also- SM getting re-done(rules wise) as we speak and bloodletters...still have a few months too go. Who knows what will be happening

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
18-10-2007, 21:49
Let's not forget that it is ridiculous and entirely not helpful to do any side-by-side comparison of troops from different armies as points values are not based solely upon abilities, but also based on the context of the army in which they appear. Whew, that was a mouthful.

Neknoh
18-10-2007, 22:09
Have to agree with uriel, cross-army-comparisons on two units with fundamentally different rules (Bloodletters are Daemonic, that means ItP, Instabillity and Fear as well as a Daemonic Wardsave being part of their setup, not to mention frenzy and MR1, swordsmasters... well... they strike first... that's it, if they fail a fear-test, they'll hit the letters on 6's when charged... or even flee, game over for Swordsmasters says I).

Pokpoko
18-10-2007, 22:20
Fulgrim-the whole problem, that leads to that kind of silly things like elves as strong as orcs etc. is the limit of the stat system. it's based on d6, so you'r VERY limited in that regard. if you have 6 levels of strenght, then the categories must be very broad to fit everyone in. a D10 would make it more diverse, and D20 even more: if Elves had 7 strenght, then orcs with S9 would really BE stronger, and without resorting to a single special rule. as of now, you'll have to live with it

theDarkGeneral
18-10-2007, 22:23
Well, just be happy to know that the Infantry for the Daemons will be dropping in their points cost come April/May...

Master Vampire
18-10-2007, 22:42
Saves: SM's get a 5+ Armor....Bloodletters, normally, get a 5+ Ward that can be broken by anything Magical or Magic Spells. We could call this one a draw, for the most part. If you consider the Daemonic Legion list, the Bloodletters would win this one easily since they would have a TRUE 5+ Ward Save...but since the Bloodletter Points Cost was created based on how they appear in Hordes of Chaos, we almost have to use that "Version" of the Bloodletter in our comparisons.

I disagree that this is a draw, though. There are far less magical/daemonical attacks around than any S4+ attacks are. You do remember that S4 reduces AS?


Let's not forget that it is ridiculous and entirely not helpful to do any side-by-side comparison of troops from different armies as points values are not based solely upon abilities, but also based on the context of the army in which they appear. Whew, that was a mouthful.

I second this totally. Cross-army comparisons aren't a good thing, mainly because a unit only gains definition because it has an army of units around it. Just like a person in a society. That person alone is nothing, but with an extensive team, it can achieve anything he/she can in his own studied subject.

I guess the main mistake is that you didn't realise this. The comparisons seem fine.


Fulgrim-the whole problem, that leads to that kind of silly things like elves as strong as orcs etc. is the limit of the stat system. it's based on d6, so you'r VERY limited in that regard. if you have 6 levels of strenght, then the categories must be very broad to fit everyone in. a D10 would make it more diverse, and D20 even more: if Elves had 7 strenght, then orcs with S9 would really BE stronger, and without resorting to a single special rule. as of now, you'll have to live with it

This reminds me of a friend. He is a total Orc fan and collects O&G somewhat. We were playing this game right, called Dark Messiah, on the computer. It featured Orcs. When he saw the RED blood splash out of these orcs, in the most spectacular way possible, he said it was all fake and phoney, because orc blood is BLACK. (supposedly)

Llew
18-10-2007, 22:43
There are tons of imbalances across various armies. This is due primarily to sloppy game design across the board. Comparing them side by side implies that there is a formula in place, when time and time again it is established that there really isn't.

theunwantedbeing
18-10-2007, 22:48
Bloodletters suck as chaos warriors suck.
They are in the same army so neither is allowed to be noticably better than the other. And chaos warriors arent very good for what you pay for them, as a result bloodletters arent either.

When they get new rules they'll be much better than they currently are.

They werent t4 as plaguebearers were t4.
T4 and a better offensive ability than plaguebearers would make them too good a choice compared to them.
They didnt get 2 attacks as standard as daemonettes got 2 attacks, 2 attacks plus frenzy would outclass them too much.
GW thinks 5+ wards are better than they really are.

Note they are unbreakable and immune to psychology, the swordsmasters arent.
Doesnt really mean a whole lot and has several drawbacks(instability, no tactical fleeing) but I guess its an advantage.

Swordsmasters > Bloodletters

Definitely. But thats not really suprising.

lokigod
19-10-2007, 04:04
I have to say bloodletters are just plain garbage for there points in hordes. Now in a demonic legion list there just great :), but as the dark general said.... when daemonic players get a new codex were going to get alot of love if the power creep continues! Only thing that sucks about this is we will get a bunch of band wagon kids playing our list now :(

Oh well atleast I will have my 5k points of demons already painted :)

mistformsquirrel
19-10-2007, 04:09
I have to admit, as a Chaos player <,< I find myself desperately curious to see what Chaos Warriors will have done to them when our turn comes up. I know I shouldn't get my hopes up; but *looks at paint station* when you have 3 regiments of them <,<; One wants as much bang as one can get!

Flypaper
19-10-2007, 05:26
Let's not forget that it is ridiculous and entirely not helpful to do any side-by-side comparison of troops from different armies as points values are not based solely upon abilities, but also based on the context of the army in which they appear.
Indeed! Since Daemons of Chaos are a much weaker army than High Elves, naturally all their units should cost more. :D

...Honestly, the cynical-yet-irrefutable answer is that Bloodletters should be better than they are, but the Chaos list's turn for a taste of that sweet, sweet power creep isn't here yet.

gortexgunnerson
19-10-2007, 09:32
Also a point that noone here has mentioned in the slightest and one of the key abilities of Bloodletters is that they cause fear (a bonus worth around 50-75 points to most other armies). But yes blood letters do suck slightly, but as people say its an army feel for these things. On fluff basis the horde of the blood god should be an unstoppable assult of the most powerful troops available powered up to be super strong! Just as the Slann should be albe to destroy a city with their mind etc etc


Basically its and its very hard to balance so many armies and so many combinations. Every army needs to be looked at as a block and points adjusted to make it play against other armies. I'll admit that GW does seem to leave some blaring omissions but I put this down to the players I know that play test. Generally lots of staff and quite fluffy players, (I know that some GT winners etc are asked to play and no offense is intended by this comment) so the lists arent abused as much as they should be force some rules points up/down.

But in summary, you cant really compare troops individually, just the army in which they are based against the other army

Fulgrim's-Chosen
19-10-2007, 12:03
True they do cause Fear...which is quite useful...I don't think Swordmaster's are rumored to cause Fear too...right ? (if they were, that would be another thing washed out in any comparison of the two units).

BUT...they (Bloodletters) are NOT "Unbreakable"...someone earlier said "remember they are Immune to Psych and Unbreakable" ...one is true, the other is not (big difference too !).


Also...the Fear factor VS the Swordmasters is not likely to matter much...even if the B-Letters outnumbered them, the SMasters are reported to have Ldrship 9...thus not likely to fail their "Fear test" ....in any event.

Rattlehead
19-10-2007, 13:07
Well, if the blooletters are outnumbering the swoardmasters it dosen't matter if they make their fear test. They STILL autobreak if they loose combat. (but they wont lol)

Archaon
19-10-2007, 13:21
Just wait until the Demon Armybook is released.. i'm expecting cries of "OMG.. teh Khorne Deamunz are way too sick! Broken!" :p

ZomboCom
19-10-2007, 13:28
This comparison is ridiculous as it doesn't take into account the daemonic instability, which makes them mostly unbreakable, or the facts that they cause fear and have magical attacks etc.

If you're going to do a comparison, at least be honest and don't just leave some rules out.

Fulgrim's-Chosen
19-10-2007, 19:24
I don't think it's RIDICULOUS...it is, as some others have noted, difficult to compare unit to unit, at times...but it's not impossible.

Yes...you mention the Magic Attacks concept...but, in truth, this rarely comes into play in most Warhammer battles because there are only so many units (low number) where magic attacks are helpful/useful/needed ...I suppose a good example would be Daemon VS Daemon or Daemon VS Undead/VC, etc.

It's a "bonus" yes...but not one that really has THAT much mass effect ...compare it, for example, to Always Strikes First...and it's not even close. In fact...I'm trying to gauge just how much ASF was worth in the Designers Minds, when they gave it out to the various High Elf units in this new Army Book. 4 pts ? 5 pts ? More ?


Keep in mind too, I didn't raise this question in an attempt to say Bloodletters were BAD...the main thing I was asking about was why are they Toughness-3, as "tough" as Humans or Elves...while normal "Mortal" Beastmen in Beasts of Chaos, etc. - are primarily Toughness-4 (hence my joking "Weakling" Bloodletters thread title).


I think the relative "frailty" of the High Elves, in this example, (T-3, AS-5+) is balanced greatly by the fact that they can annihilate almost anything in straight-up combat thanks to STR-5, WS-6, Always Strikes First combo.

In the case of the existing Bloodletters...that really doesn't apply. They have Instability - with base Leadership of 8...meaning 33% chance to "Pop" / "Vanish back into Chaos" - during any combat they lose and have to make the Instab. test. It's great to be Immune to Psych, yes....but some people think Instability is FANTASTIC to have...it's not ....it's meant more as a drawback / balance for the fact that Daemons are Immune to Psych.

In the Bloodletters case, you have the same (as the Smasters) STR and Toughness...but lower Weapon Skill...Lower Initiative...Lower movement speed, lower armor save, a "Daemonic Aura"-not true ward save (using the Hordes of Chaos basic Bloodletter), lower Leadership (IIRC), attacks based largely on Frenzy which means you drop 50% of your Attacks the instant you lose a round of Close Combat, while the Smasters keep swinging away at 2-attacks per round, regardless of if they've lost a combat or not, etc. etc.

The point is...both units are good...one is rather clearly BETTER...but the one that is WORSE (overall)...currently costs MORE than the one which is superior. That was all I found odd, upon looking at the two units.

Chiungalla
19-10-2007, 20:04
Err.....does that make sense to anyone ?

You compare 6th edition chaos with 7th edition high elves.
If this makes sense, there would be no sense in making this whole new edition stuff, because nothing have changed more then slightly.

But things have changed.
Infantry has become better and/or cheaper in all the new army books, so comparing the point values of an old army book with a new one is simply the wrong thing to do.

Come back after the 7th edition chaos arrived, and then take instability and fear into acount.

My guess is that the demons all will become better and/or cheaper, and we will see them more, but still not often, in the future. As swordmasters and white lions, if the rumours are true.

SaleanDominus
19-10-2007, 20:24
I'm quite confident that the Bloodletters will be buffed when the new Chaos book(s) start flying out of the workshop. I hope the Warriors receive a buff as well. I think it's necessary to give these elite fighters something (considering the new Swordmasters).
As noted before in the thread, cross-comparisons between armies don't work very well under GW's "system". Also Swordmasters are now in 7th edition ruleswise, which I feel is alot more powerful than the 6th (I base this on most of the new books already out)

My only fear down the line is that the Arms race will result in a frustrating game, bogged down with too many special rules.

zak
19-10-2007, 21:01
The other thing to remember about this comparison is that you are comparing a model and army that no one has used yet. Until the 7th edition books come out for both armies then any comparison is largely irrelevant.
Also the toughness stat does not represent just how actually tough the thing is, but may also take into account the total lack of defence when attacking hence toughness 3.

tensions
20-10-2007, 00:57
daemons cause fear, immune to psychology,, and won't break unless they pop.
if u take a daemon army, they are CORE. so u can have an army of them.

sulla
20-10-2007, 07:56
Now let's look again at the pts cost:

SMasters of Hoeth- 15

Bloodletters- 16


Err.....does that make sense to anyone ?

...So, perhaps you should now respect horrors as good anti-elf daemons since they can shoot them before they get close enough to hurt and you have already established that swordmasters are better in combat than the best daemon troops so their poor combat stats don't really matter?