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Hive Mind 33
19-10-2007, 03:31
Russ, the Lion, and Gulliman got back to terra before Horus killed the big E? Other than getting a beating.

DantesInferno
19-10-2007, 03:39
Well, for a start, Lion el'Jonson would have to pick a side to fight on....

Hive Mind 33
19-10-2007, 03:45
That is true.

mistformsquirrel
19-10-2007, 03:48
That's a tough one to call...

If they'd made it back in time, one can suggest that the Traitors would have been crushed right there, caught between the surviving Marines on Terra, and the Dark Angels, Space Wolves and Ultramarines coming in on their backsides... I don't see them winning that fight at all.

Just the same, that doesn't necessarily mean the Emperor would have lived, or that history would have been that different. The Traitors would probably have high-tailed it if it was clear that winning was not happening. Horus may have even Exterminatus'd Terra on the way out (given the damage already done to the place, I'm not sure how much effect that would really have... but you get the idea).

So I guess summing up my musing; the possibilities as I see them are:

A) Horus and the Traitor Legions are crushed on Terra, the Chaos Marines never really become a massive threat as the great bulk of their numbers are dead, either smashed on Terra or swept up in the aftermath. The Emperor and Sanguinus both live, and Imperial history is very very different from here on. (Who knows how exactly though.)

B) Horus and the Traitors run for it, creating the galaxies biggest and longest chase across the stars; with traitor warships pursued at every turn. Most make it to the Eye of Terror, along with Horus. Abbadon never rises to power, as the Warmaster himself continues to command his Luna Wolves personally. Traitor legions might even remain more cohesive with the Warmaster at the helm of things. Things become messy for the Imperium as Chaos becomes more than just a threat 'every few centuries' and is instead, a massively powerful and coordinated entity; just as capable of cracking the Imperium as it was in the Heresy (after it licks its wounds). Of course, the Imperium has better resources to deal with them as well... So basically, the Heresy becomes a truely long war.

C) Horus destroys Terra with a Melta Torpedo to the core of the planet, before setting off for the Eye of Terror. As with the above scenario, except the Emperor, Sanguinus and Dorn are all dead. The Imperium survives for the moment, but is in truly deep crap at a later date.

Thats just how I see it mind you >.>

Captain_Ardias
19-10-2007, 04:22
I would say that it would turn out much better for the Imperials actually,

1) the combined might of the fresh Ultramarines chapter (not to be taken lightly as the largest and so far freshest formation of warriors in the galaxy) and Russ (Space Wolves, need I say more?) descending on horus during the final hours of his siege of terra would be devastating. His fleet overpowered the defenses of terra and the solar system, but that was because the emperor didn't see a need to fortify it, and the adeptus mechanicus was fighting amongst themselves. With a free Mars (the three legions drop off stabilizing troops there on their way in-system) and a very large and very angry battlefleet slowly closing in on him, Horus has few options.

2) As soon as defeat is clear, whether through an actual defeat of his fleet or a mass boarding of his flagship, the chaos gods would leave Horus to rot (at least, I remember this happening after the Emperor laid the final blow on him and Horus realized he'd lost), meaning the powerhouse and tactical genius who created and was holding together the alliance is lost.

3) With Terra in half decent shape, the Emperor alive as well as Sanguinius, there is another potent force that is able to chase the remnants of the chaos fleet to the eye of terror.

4) Devastated by the loss, and very low on men and equipment, the traitor primarchs and legions have no foot hold to hang on to, and are a much less potent force (with little way to create more traitor marines). It is also likely that it would take longer/be impossible for the traitor primarchs to gain daemonhood without having killed the Emperor.

Of course, all this depends on Horus losing the favor of chaos for his defeat. If the warmaster is able to evade the incoming fleets and escape, the Imperium stands no chance of survival. In a protracted conflict, Horus has the full backing of Chaos (warp storms, chaos cults springing up on imperial planets and daemon forgeworlds to supply him), along with all the territory he gained in his crusade. There would be no way to forge a defense like cadia or bottle in the greater portion of the legions while they are being led by a man bent on destroying the Emperor.

pookie
19-10-2007, 09:07
i could see something along the lines of Istvann III and IV, where the trators dig in and are anighlated by over whelming numbers, and a beating from there rear quater.

some of the trators would still flee, but no where near the size/numbers of the legions that fled terra in the real history

ryng_sting
19-10-2007, 17:11
Mars fell to Horus before the Siege, btw. The Fabricator General had sided with Horus before the Dropsite Massacre.

trigger
19-10-2007, 18:04
One of the theories behind horus droping his sheilds was because these tree were close at hand.

I personally think the traitors would of got a kicking ,
But if that happened we wouldnt be playing 40k

Luthien
19-10-2007, 21:46
Yeah we would just a very different version :D

Macrus
19-10-2007, 21:50
Well, for a start, Lion el'Jonson would have to pick a side to fight on....

What do you mean that Lion el'Jonson would have had to choosen a side?

Macrus

MadDoc
19-10-2007, 22:05
What do you mean that Lion el'Jonson would have had to choosen a side?

Macrus

He was trying to bait people (namely Dark Angels players) into replying, or into an argument, take your pick. In other words, he was trolling. :skull:


(And before anybody starts, what else would you call that sort of blatant baiting?)

2_heads_talking
19-10-2007, 23:36
Actually, I think that he means more current fluff has changed the situation so that Russ and Jonson no longer did their mad dash across the known galaxy to aid the Emperor. Instead, the impression has now been given that Jonson tried to avoid conflict for as long as possible, so as to bring his forces forward in support of the victor as the smoke was beginning to clear, whether they be chaotic or loyalist.

DantesInferno
20-10-2007, 00:13
What do you mean that Lion el'Jonson would have had to choosen a side?

There's a theory which states that el'Jonson was late to arrive at Terra because he was waiting to see which side won. It fits fairly well with the secretive, insular nature of the Dark Angels and their calculating Primarch. The obvious danger was to rock up at Terra just as the palace was falling, and to be caught fighting the 7 victorious Traitor Legions alone.

The theory is sourced from this excerpt from Angels of Darkness, by Gavin Thorpe:

"There is a very simple reason why Lion El'Jonson did not take part in the final battles of the Horus Heresy." Astelan let himself drop to the floor, his back against the stone table, his eyes closed. "It is beautifully simple, when you consider it. He was waiting."
"Waiting? For what?"
Astelan looked into Boreas's eyes, seeing the curiosity that was now there.
"He was waiting to see which side won of course."

Astelan was a high-ranking member of the Dark Angels Legion, recruited on Terra before the Lion was found.

Now of course, what he says isn't necessarily true. Still, I find it a fairly plausible theory (hell, it's probably what I would have done during the Heresy!).


He was trying to bait people (namely Dark Angels players) into replying, or into an argument, take your pick. In other words, he was trolling. :skull:


(And before anybody starts, what else would you call that sort of blatant baiting?)

Lighten up, maybe? :eyebrows:

It's a fairly relevant point to the discussion at hand: if the Dark Angels arrive at Terra well before the Ultramarines and Space Wolves, which side are they going to enter the fighting on?

Ktotwf
20-10-2007, 00:19
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say the presence of the Emperor would have swayed the undecided back to the Imperium.

Because he is the *******' Emperor.

Rockerfella
20-10-2007, 16:35
Being the '******* Emperor' didn't do diddly squat to stop the heresey in the first place. :) I'm guessing that its entirely possible that Johnson was waiting. Calculating, deciding. Maybe his loyalties weren't ever in question and even if he did wait, he may have been waiting simply to figure out what to do, rather than bowl straight in and fight. He was a 'thinker', after all.

I dunoo.

As for Dantes Inferno 'baiting blatantly', well, i've never seen him do it in the past, and i certainly wouldn't class his post in question as 'blatant baiting'. Horses for courses, whatever takes your buscuit. :)

Cheers!

unwanted
20-10-2007, 16:50
I'd rather believe the legend of "The Lion and the Wolf" than the ramblings of a traitor *scoff"...

Puffin Magician
20-10-2007, 18:17
As others have all stated, the answer is simple yet complex. I believe the arrival of the Ultramarines alone would have swung the battle more decidedly to the Loyalist's favour - let alone Leman Russ or Lion "on-the-fence" Johnson. It's what happens specifically afterwards that we're unsure of, as there are many paths which can be taken.

Option A: Ultras and Wolves arrive in time to blunt the invasion while still in it's early stages. Traitorous dropships are destroyed en-masse, which causes ground forces to falter without support of the turned Titan Legions. Loyalist Legions land and crush Chaos forces between themselves and their surviving, dug-in, comrades. Horus, seeing his plans crumble, retreats with what's left of his followers towards the Eye of Terror. Pretty much like mistformsquirrel's "Option B" from here on in.

Option B: Ultras and Wolves arrive in time to blunt the invasion, but only after the Dark Angels have arrived and sided with the [seemingly-victorious] Warmaster. The decision to join Chaos creates a schism within the Dark Angels [antithesis to the current Fallen], provoking several companies to fight for the Emperor. With the addition of the Dark Angels on the Traitor's side allows them to gain greater headway on the surface of Terra. The additional military support of an Astartes Legion allows more assault ships to land safely and disgorge their cargoes. Legio Canis Pandum [Warped Dogs] are not destroyed during atmospheric descent, and assist in breaching the Imperial Palace defences.

The Word Bearers inform Horus that the Ultramarines and Space Wolves are en-route, but this drives him to finish the assault quickly and personally, and he never feels compelled to lower his shields and "allow" the Emperor to kill him. Instead, after breaching the Eternity Gate, both the Blood Angel and Dark Angel Legions suffer horrendous casualties and Horus leads the assault with Lion'el as well as Angron, Mortarion, and Fulgrim [IIRC they were present]. This is where it can take two distinct directions;

Option B-i: The Custodes/heresy-equiv. banish the Daemon Primarchs, leaving Horus and Lion'el to face off against the Emperor, Sanguinus, and whoever else is around. Lion'el clashes with Sanguinus, Horus begins the epic struggle against the Emperor. The combatants, being equal, make no headway in their prolonged combats. Horus diverts his attention for a split-second to give Lion'el a slight advantage [call it psychic powers, or throwing spiders at Sanguinus; whatever]; Lion'el slays Sanguinus but during Horus' momentary distraction he is cut down by the Emperor. Lion'el sees the folly of his decision and offers his life to his Father as repentance. The Emperor kills him, and tells the DA that Horus did it. The High Lords of Terra don't bitch for centuries about what the Emperor maybe would've sorta wanted, the Age of Apostasy never takes place, the Imperium never degenerates into a society controlled by closed-minded xenophobes, and the Ordos actually have to answer for what they do. United under their most glorious leader, humanity advances both technologically and spiritually. Alien forces are beaten back by a coherent Imperium and/or appeased using diplomacy. 40k would not exist as we know it, and in the grim distant future the human race might actually experience peace.

Option B-ii: Horus' allies easily destroy what remains of the Emperor's defences, Sanguinus is killed by Lion'el, Horus slays the Emperor. Blood Angels hate Dark Angels, but after that there's way too many options to explore. The Imperial defenders rally, and upon the arrival of additional loyalists, drive the forces of Chaos off Terra? A warpstorm explodes out of the Golden Throne? Horus takes his place as ruler of Mankind?



It is also likely that it would take longer/be impossible for the traitor primarchs to gain daemonhood without having killed the Emperor.I'm certain that Angron, at least, had already achieved Daemonhood before assaulting Terra in the last stages of the Heresy.

Something also worth mentioning is that the only real reason I see the Ultramarines being able to support their beleaguered bretheren on Terra would be to circumvent or destroy the Alpha Legion on the Eastern Fringes.

The Guy
20-10-2007, 21:45
The combatants, being equal, make no headway in their prolonged combats. Horus diverts his attention for a split-second to give Lion'el a slight advantage [call it psychic powers, or throwing spiders at Sanguinus; whatever]; Lion'el slays Sanguinus but during Horus' momentary distraction he is cut down by the Emperor.

I doubt Horus would stop fighting the emperor just for a split second to help another guy. It would probably be the other way around.

Ktotwf
20-10-2007, 21:48
Being the '******* Emperor' didn't do diddly squat to stop the heresey in the first place. :)
Cheers!

I think my argument has a bit more merit than that.

The Emperor seems to have had a spellbinding effect on people's minds. After all, it was only after the Emperor left the Great Crusade that the Heresy started to boil.

Most accounts of the presence of the Emperor seem to suggest a sort of Holy Vision-esque moment. Meaning, the Emperor, if you were around him, probably seemed like the greatest person ever, because he overpowered your mind with his Psychic awesomeness.

DantesInferno
21-10-2007, 01:41
I think my argument has a bit more merit than that.

The Emperor seems to have had a spellbinding effect on people's minds. After all, it was only after the Emperor left the Great Crusade that the Heresy started to boil.

Most accounts of the presence of the Emperor seem to suggest a sort of Holy Vision-esque moment. Meaning, the Emperor, if you were around him, probably seemed like the greatest person ever, because he overpowered your mind with his Psychic awesomeness.

But at the point where Jonson hypothetically arrives in the Sol system to find the ships of 7 hostile Legions in orbit around Terra, Mars in the hands of the Traitors, Luna blasted (back) to a lifeless rock, and the remnants of the 3 Loyalist Legions in the system doing a desperate last stand in the Palace against the numberless hordes attacking them, he's not exactly going to be in close proximity to the psychic spell-binding effect of the Emperor when he's still in orbit. And the Emperor has other, more pressing concerns...

Noserenda
21-10-2007, 04:03
Youd then have to consider what would hapen to the Traitor forces sent to tie up those loyalist legions... Id assume a Stalingrad like situation would develop with rings of reinforcements leading to a hideous slaughter all round.

This probably ends worse for the Imperium, as with all the Legions present on Earth and fighting each other until both sides are bloody ruins the Ultramarines wont be at nearly full strength to hold the Imperium together after the Heresy.

Green-is-best
21-10-2007, 04:06
Isn't the whole reason that Horus lured the Emperor on to the Vengeful Spirit in the first place because knew his forces couldn't hold out against the Ultramarines once they arrived? If loyalist reinforcements arrived before that moment in time, I imagine Horus and the Emperor would've fought on terms much more favorable to the Emperor, if they fought at all. The whole 40k universe would be different.

Unless you mean that they arrived like minutes before the Emperor and Horus killed each other....

DantesInferno
21-10-2007, 04:57
Isn't the whole reason that Horus lured the Emperor on to the Vengeful Spirit in the first place because knew his forces couldn't hold out against the Ultramarines once they arrived? If loyalist reinforcements arrived before that moment in time, I imagine Horus and the Emperor would've fought on terms much more favorable to the Emperor, if they fought at all. The whole 40k universe would be different.

Well, one of the good things about the Heresy for humanity as a whole was that it gave humanity a fresh start at galactic government: it wiped the slate clean. The Heresy exposed severe structural weaknesses in the Emperor's regime which could have otherwise festered. Guilliman was able to set up a stabile, decentralised regime built to last. The power of the Astartes was greatly reduced by the reorganisation from Legions into Chapters, so they'd no longer wield the massive influence they once did. Finally, humanity's regime was no longer dependent on the Emperor's personal leadership, which could at best be described as erratic.

Furthermore, the Heresy ended decisively. Horus was killed, the Traitors retreated, and the Loyalists were left with their largest Legion relatively intact. Within a few hundred years the resurgent Imperium was able to recapture substantially all of the worlds it had lost during the Heresy.

If, as is suggested, both sides pushed all their troops into a massive slaughter on Terra, whichever side won would have been bled completely dry, and in no position to hold together its galactic empire. Human worlds would have been ripe for conquest for Orks, the recovering Eldar, or a host of other alien species. Or some other human warlord on another distant planet could have launched an Empire before the Terrans reorganised themselves.

Green-is-best
21-10-2007, 05:29
Well, one of the good things about the Heresy for humanity as a whole was that it gave humanity a fresh start at galactic government: it wiped the slate clean. The Heresy exposed severe structural weaknesses in the Emperor's regime which could have otherwise festered. Guilliman was able to set up a stabile, decentralised regime built to last. The power of the Astartes was greatly reduced by the reorganisation from Legions into Chapters, so they'd no longer wield the massive influence they once did. Finally, humanity's regime was no longer dependent on the Emperor's personal leadership, which could at best be described as erratic.

Furthermore, the Heresy ended decisively. Horus was killed, the Traitors retreated, and the Loyalists were left with their largest Legion relatively intact. Within a few hundred years the resurgent Imperium was able to recapture substantially all of the worlds it had lost during the Heresy.

If, as is suggested, both sides pushed all their troops into a massive slaughter on Terra, whichever side won would have been bled completely dry, and in no position to hold together its galactic empire. Human worlds would have been ripe for conquest for Orks, the recovering Eldar, or a host of other alien species. Or some other human warlord on another distant planet could have launched an Empire before the Terrans reorganised themselves.

Did you mean to reply to the guy above me? I ask cause your post doesn't seem to have much to do with mine.

RexTalon
21-10-2007, 06:02
The theory is sourced from this excerpt from Angels of Darkness, by Gavin Thorpe:

Oh, well there's a reliable source. :rolleyes:

I swear, that guy has done more to ruin fluff than anyone in the company.

ICEMANQ
21-10-2007, 06:06
I've always believed that the fight for Terra should be accompanied by the song "No Easy Way Out" from Rocky 4 :p Seriously, perfect.

Anyway, on topic. What would be even more interesting would be Russ and Johnson turning up just as Horus and the Emperor have an epic battle that ends with both of them dying. Upon hearing this, Johnson sides with (technically what is) the loyal legions hoping to become their eventual leader. The Ultramarines finally turn up, with Roboute being himself and demanding he become the new mob boss. Khan and Russ take exception, slay him and boost away Terra with their legions forming their own empires out on the Eastern Fringe.... The Imperium is then ruled by Johnson becoming just as monolithic as it is now. The traitor Primarchs are killed by an omnipotent Johnson (after using the Emperor's secret labs to enhance himself and after eating the Emperor's many hearts) who then takes the traitor legions back into the fold and the Ultramarines are banished to the Halo Stars.. :p

SonofUltramar
21-10-2007, 09:28
For me the Heresy would have ended very differently if the Ultramarines, Dark Angels and Space Wolves turned up. The thing that I think swings it for The Imperium is that 17 of the Legions were badly mauled by this time whereas 1, the Ultramarines, were vastly more numerous than the others would be the equiveleant of 2 or 3 other Legions strength?

The Dark Angels and Space Wolves are just the icing on the cake frankly and if Horus hadn't breachd the Palace by the time they arrived he would have probably fallen back to the Eye straight away rather than sacrifice himself and the Traitor Legions. With The Emperor alive and only Ferrus Manus fallen from the Loyal Primarchs the Imperium would re-gain its foothold on the lost planets in a short time and the Cadian Gate might not have been needed as The Emperor leads his Primarchs to the Eye and destroy the Fallen Legions one by one. By the 41st Millenium the Primarchs are powerful political and military figures but the Chapter system is still adopted to secure the vast prize that is the Imperium.

The Tyranids are met in force and each Hive fleet is decimated by huge Imperial Fleets and dozens (the second founding and subsequent foundings are spread equally from the Legion Gene seed and the Ultramarines are not the majority of the Chapters) of Chapters led by their relevant Priamarch.

The Necrons awake and pose a huge threat but decide not to reawaken at this time due to the losses suffered during their initial scouting from their tomb worlds.

The Ork Empires are crushed and no Waaaagh is ever heard of for millenia, Yarrick serves with distinction as an soldier in The Imperial army and Macharius is a fine line officer.

The Emperor and Eldrad forge a pact to allow mutual trade and non aggresion pacts (just think Teclis and Magnus the Pious), together they purge Chaos from the galaxy at large and the Eldar are allowed to settle new worlds and begin to re populate their race. The Emperor is allowed access to the Webway and the Black Library and with the Eldar not fighting foes on every front are able to purge the Dark Eldar from the webway, victory sealed with the fall of Commoragh.

Lastly the Tau are found in their infintile state and are used as an experiment, without the intervention of the Eldar they amount to a botched lab experiment and are later terminated.

So in short, things probably would have turned out very different IMO:)

Ktotwf
21-10-2007, 10:31
Finally, humanity's regime was no longer dependent on the Emperor's personal leadership, which could at best be described as erratic.


I love how you take your bias and state it as fact.

DantesInferno
21-10-2007, 12:07
I love how you take your bias and state it as fact.

Sure, it's my opinion. But I think it's got a pretty strong foundation in the 40k background. I certainly don't have some sort of irrational prejudice against the Emperor, if that's what you're implying. I've put forward my arguments in plenty of other threads, and I'm happy to recite them if you want.

Ktotwf
21-10-2007, 12:11
I wasn't convinced the first several times, why would I be this time? :confused:

LexxBomb
22-10-2007, 12:35
1. the wolves would have droppoded down to terra and had no stratigic plan for winning
2. the Smurfs would have landed and tried to secure the landing pads.
3. the lion (having chosen to side with the Emperor - having now seen that horus was a tool of chaos) would have engaged the chaos fleet and teleported onto horus's battle barge and fought him in close combat with Sangunius at his side. I dont care how bad ass Horus was. therte is no possible way he could have defeated the Twin Angels of Death.

oh and the Codex used by all space marines gets penned by Johnson not guilliman - guilliman isn't the best strategicly or tacticaly

Rockerfella
22-10-2007, 13:02
I love how you take your bias and state it as fact.

I love it how, the second anyone puts forward their own personal opinion (read, opinion) that may not paint the Emperor in the brightest of lights, you kick off, Ktotwf.

I accept Eldrad is a dick (damn, thats still funny), sometimes you've got to accept the Emperor screwed pooch and sometimes made mistakes, as did Eldrad. Its just the way it is. No one, repeat, no one is perfect, no matter how much you want them to be. In fact, that makes them all the more interesting. For me at least. :)

Dantes Inferno has done nothing other than put forward his opinion in relation to the thread and its contents. You've done the same. All is good, and all is fair. Cetain arguments are easier to evaluate when backed up by evidence that pertains to the original statement/argument. I'm crap at that, I admit. Some of us are better at it than others, but DI has simply made a statement, and systematically provided evidence to back up those statements. It dosen't mean he's right, or that the Emperor sucks. Its just an opinion, not a statement of fact. A belief, if you will.

Cheers!

Noserenda
22-10-2007, 13:21
If, as is suggested, both sides pushed all their troops into a massive slaughter on Terra, whichever side won would have been bled completely dry, and in no position to hold together its galactic empire. Human worlds would have been ripe for conquest for Orks, the recovering Eldar, or a host of other alien species. Or some other human warlord on another distant planet could have launched an Empire before the Terrans reorganised themselves.

Exactly, you have to remember that as written the two sides are more or less balanced in numbers; whilst the Ultras might have been huge, the Wolves are Tiny; Whilst the Traitors had to purge loyalists, they also purged a third of the loyalist Legions effectively out of the fight... And in an even fight, both sides get hideously mauled, which is bad for everyone.

And yes, you could certainly describe the Emperor as erratic, its kinda negative, but certainly not false :skull: