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Ganymede
19-10-2007, 17:58
One of the unusual changes from 6th edition to 7th edition was the fact that they removed many of the negative aspects of refusing a challenge. Now, characters who hid in the back ranks are returned to the front at the end of the particular combat, and none of the disadvantages of being in the back ranks even carry over to later phases.



How about this is a fun little addition?

Combat Modifier - Refused Challenge
If you refused a challenge this combat round, you suffer a -1 modifier to your CR score.

theunwantedbeing
19-10-2007, 18:07
The only difference is that they return at the end of the combat round, rather than the combat phase.
In general its not really a big difference as it only has any noticable effect on stubborn units.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
19-10-2007, 18:08
I'd prefer to see the allocation of attacks require a Ld test for the unit, taken as normal. Otherwise, you can only attack the rank and file.

Alathir
19-10-2007, 19:24
Even though the character can still move back to the front ranks when the opponent who issued a challenge scary enough for you to refuse slaughters your champion in a turn your character isn't going to have anywhere to hide anymore, so there isn't much difference.

As a side note, my friend and I used to house rule that very same change you proposed.

Urgat
19-10-2007, 19:37
Challenges annoy me. I've got that chaos player who keeps issuing challenges with his champion to prevent my characters from attacking his unit, and for his own character to be able to do so w/o being bothered (I don't buy champions most of the time, since save for preventing what I just described, I always feel like they're grossly overpriced for what they offer). I know this is probably one of the most used ways of issuing a challenge, but that's really not how I picture what challenges should be.

EvC
19-10-2007, 19:54
Well that's the beauty of those "overpriced" champions that give you such a hard time with their annoying behavior :D

PeWpWnsJ00
19-10-2007, 21:21
Urgat, I totally agree with you, challenges annoy me. I mean, what's the point of setting up a brilliant charge on your enemy only to have him use his overpowered uber-character challenge and slaughter your hero with ease and STILL win combat?!?

I think challenges should be limited to generals. That way, if you really want to have a pissing contest, you have to spend all game trying to get in combat with your opponents general.

I mean, as if my troops give a crap if you want to challenge me, they're charging in to kick your butt.

zak
19-10-2007, 21:29
Your rule would have to have a special - doesn't include Skaven - rule as this would overly harm Skaven who make a speciality out of running away and hiding at the back.

T10
19-10-2007, 21:37
Challenges annoy me. I've got that chaos player who keeps issuing challenges with his champion to prevent my characters from attacking his unit, and for his own character to be able to do so w/o being bothered (I don't buy champions most of the time, since save for preventing what I just described, I always feel like they're grossly overpriced for what they offer). I know this is probably one of the most used ways of issuing a challenge, but that's really not how I picture what challenges should be.

Pardon me as I respond to your tale of woe in the only appropriate manner:

Ha ha ha ha ha!

-T10

logan054
19-10-2007, 21:53
I dont really see the issue here, i mean in the way Ugrat said, all you do is except with your unit champion with LA+SH and watch as both champions are locked in a challenge, your character can still hack his unit and so can his hack at your, maybe more of a issue in a prolonged combat but i cant see i see many of them these days.

I dont see the -1 combat res is needed, if you refuse you lose a combat monster (remember its the opponents choice who goes to back rank), i think thats enough of a lose.

Urgat
19-10-2007, 22:01
Pardon me as I respond to your tale of woe in the only appropriate manner:

Ha ha ha ha ha!

-T10

Well, I don't really care efficiency-wise, what he does is block a goblin boss with usualy no magic items, now, so bah. It just annoyes me, he's got that aspiring champion, and he plays cowardly, because omg that gob might kill two marauders!!!!!! I'm the "play in the spirit" kind, you see :p

warlord hack'a
19-10-2007, 22:22
well if he keeps on pulling the same trick then get a boss in your unit toooled up for character killing, e.g. tricksy trinket and wollopa's or something. Or just scare him and give your big boss the brimstone bauble ;-). To quote Edward the longshanks in his battle against William Wallace: Edward:"Send in the archers" Squire:" But sire, won't we hit our own troops?" Edward:"Yes, but we'll hit theirs as well."

Or use on of thoise very cheap sneaky gobbo items, just scare him a bit ;-).

T10
19-10-2007, 22:56
I'm the "play in the spirit" kind, you see :p

Indeed. However, adding a champion in a regiment you expect to do some actual fighting is hardly against the spirit of the game. It adds a bit of character to the unit, just like a standard does, and it gives that front rank an extra bit of "oomph!"

And as for the cost? Well, unless you are taking minimum sized units you are already paying for models that probably won't be making any rolls out there except armour saves!

Seriously, taking a character in any sizeable unit just makes sense. It's not just for the challenges. Warhammer is a game where a lot of the models are simply there to provide weight of numbers and durability to the unit and do rarerly contribute actively, simply because the unit's are to narrown and they are relgated into the back ranks. A champion in the front rank, now kind of counts as having two guys there instead of one.

-T10

Master Jeridian
19-10-2007, 23:56
Sergeants are vital for just this occasion.

Chaos Champion: "I, arch champion of dreaded Chaos, challenge you to face me in combat."

Empire General: "I see your challenge, and grant my Sergeant the honour of your death."

Empire Sergeant: "Oh, ffs."

Urgat
20-10-2007, 00:23
Indeed. However, adding a champion in a regiment you expect to do some actual fighting is hardly against the spirit of the game. It adds a bit of character to the unit, just like a standard does, and it gives that front rank an extra bit of "oomph!"
-T10


My comment was in regard of him always answering or issuing chalenges with his champion even when he's got his general or whatever in the fight, not the fact he takes a champion. That's at least 3 posts in that thread that seem to misunderstand what I said, so i'll just leave the matter aside :p.

theunwantedbeing
20-10-2007, 01:03
The unit champion issues challenges rather than the lord?
The unit champion is wishing to gain favour in the eyes of his master and his masters master. Seems fluffy enough.

The unit champion accepts challenges?
His lord doesnt feel like it (plenty reasonable, if your a chaos hero your going to be pretty snooty about who is worthy enough to fight you).
See the issuing challenges reason.

Ganymede
20-10-2007, 03:04
Your rule would have to have a special - doesn't include Skaven - rule as this would overly harm Skaven who make a speciality out of running away and hiding at the back.

I actually thought about that, but I didn't want to play favorites. It is definitely a compelling idea though.

Ganymede
20-10-2007, 03:05
The only difference is that they return at the end of the combat round, rather than the combat phase.
In general its not really a big difference as it only has any noticable effect on stubborn units.

From my reading of the 6th edition challenge rules, it seemed that models who refused a challenge are returned to their place at the beginning of their next close combat phase. They also counted as out of the game during this time.

Additionally, before the model who replaced your character could not fight. Now he can.

Alathir
20-10-2007, 08:09
I love challenges... they add a real cinematic feel to combats, especially if its two generals going at it.

Crazy Harborc
20-10-2007, 20:56
Try talking to that Chaos opponent. He might be willing to play a game without issuing challenges in the HtHs.

As already said, you could change your usual tactics and include unit champions.;) At least put them in units you plan to plop your characters into. Go for more flank attacks, more rear attacks.;)

Cragspyder
20-10-2007, 23:51
I don't really understand this champion/challenge issue.

to Urgat: I really don't understand you at all, unfortunate as you noted everyone seems to misunderstand you. I will attempt to get it straight though...

From what I understand of your post, on one hand you are complaining that your opponent is using his Champion to nullify your own fighter character, thus also allowing his own fighter character to kill rank-and-file.

And, on the other hand, you are saying that you never use Champions because you feel they are overpriced for what they do, except you DO take them to nullify the situation above...

So, are you lamenting the fact that you forgot to take a Champion in your General's unit every time you fight your Chaos opponent, or the fact that you MUST take what you feel to be a waste of points in order to nullify this situation...

And if the latter, how can you watch the effectiveness of your opponent's Challenge tactic and not feel that his Champion (which is not doubt also 'overpriced') is not worth said cost?

Sorry if I am the fourth player who misunderstood you.

EDIT: Oh, I think I get it. You're pissed because he can issue challenges with a champion even though it really ought to be the General who issues and accepts challenges, the General being the most important person in the unit as well as the most powerful, etc.

Well, I can understand that then. Maybe the General figures he is beneath such things... However, if the most powerful (highest point cost) character in the unit always had to issue and accept challenges, the advantage would always go to tooled Dueling Characters, leaving no place for regular rank-and-file killing characters.

At least the way it is now you can accept with your own champion and strike at rank + file with your Hero. With luck and good placement any Dueling Character on the opposite side won't be able to direct attacks against your General, and you'll have a good chance of winning or tying that round. Just hope that your champ wins the fight :)

Urgat
21-10-2007, 01:51
EDIT: Oh, I think I get it. You're pissed because he can issue challenges with a champion even though it really ought to be the General who issues and accepts challenges, the General being the most important person in the unit as well as the most powerful, etc.

Bingo. That said, i don't really mind that much, I just complained for the sake of complaining :p

Hellebore
21-10-2007, 04:18
I had a dwarf warrior veteran with hand weapon and shield kill 3 Grail Knights in challenges in a single combat - that'll teach them to challenge a dwarf. :cool:

Hellebore